Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: wfojohn on February 10, 2016, 01:37:08 PM
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Power Nation website has a petition to get signatures to stop the EPA from doing away with race cars made from street cars. I watched the video a few minutes ago.
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An overreaction . . .
http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/news/a28135/heres-what-the-epas-track-car-proposal-actually-means/
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I was told at our club meeting last night that the EPA has done a turn around on the idea.
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SEMA thinks it matters: http://semasan.com/page.asp?content=aa2016FED1&g=SEMAGA&utm_source=ET&utm_medium=email&utm_content=50756237&utm_campaign=LegAlert (http://semasan.com/page.asp?content=aa2016FED1&g=SEMAGA&utm_source=ET&utm_medium=email&utm_content=50756237&utm_campaign=LegAlert)
Mike
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Currently at 94 thousand signatures in about 24 hours that is a pretty quick and firm response that hopefully will make them think twice.
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Just went over 100,000 at about 18:41 mountain time, added 6000 signatures in about 14 minutes.
(tally only updates about once every 3 minutes so timing is not exact.)
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It would be nice to get that kind of support for STS
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Once the camel gets his nose in the tent, he's in- we're out.
This EPA idea should be stone dead.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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A politician friend of mine says to take this threat very seriously, and engage in pushback RIGHT NOW. Gubmint continues to over-reach unless we swat their hands away. Take a tip from the NRA, folks.
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It would be nice to get that kind of support for STS
The difference here being this is where the money is, if you want to get people moving, reach into their pocket.
Sid.
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Yeah, they weren't "banning racecar conversions" they were banning racecars that have been modified from their EPA certificate... like engine swaps and exhaust/cam/intake/ecu/carburetion configuration changes.
Don't worry, they promised to selectively enforce it only on street-driven cars...
The change is in the past they considered a competition vehicle based on use, not a case of "ever having been in a certified condition."
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Mergatroyd, that's the thing. How hard will they enforce it? The letter of the law says that it is illegal to modify a vehicle in such a way that it will affect the emissions. Even changing a tire size can to that, since that will change the rpm at a given speed. This would mean that having a "tune" on a computer controlled car would be illegal, even if it only affected emissions at full throttle. This is definitely not a good thing.
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The EPA is much more concerned about how you dispose of your used oil from your race car than your race car.
Pitchforks and torches can be left in the shed on this one.
But don't throw 'em out . . . :wink:
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So you think the EPA wants to basically kill off the racing industry as we know it? Somehow I think that would be just as devastating for them. Nascar alone moves $1B a year. Another silly concept they could never enforce.
The new EPA proposal is specifically for medium and heavy duty vehicles: "“Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Fuel Efficiency Standards for Medium- and Heavy-Duty Engines and Vehicles."
This is mostly for mining trucks, over-the-road trucks, etc... Over 8500 lbs, not including the addition of ballast to what is otherwise a light duty race car or truck.
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So you think the EPA wants to basically kill off the racing industry as we know it? Somehow I think that would be just as devastating for them. Nascar alone moves $1B a year. Another silly concept they could never enforce.
Never underestimate zealots who think that they are righteous and who have the power to force their beliefs on you. Remember what George Santayana said.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2016/02/epa-proposed-regulation-has-consequences-for-the-performance-industry/?eid=284935200&bid=1309601
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It would be nice to get that kind of support for STS
The difference here being this is where the money is, if you want to get people moving, reach into their pocket.
Sid.
I am sure impressed with the weight SEMA can bring to bear.
What is keeping SEMA from helping Bonneville?
A petition costs nothing and racers always need parts.
Is there a negative impact to SEMA concerning Bonneville?
Sam
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Sam, it's numbers - you'll get more regular contestants on any three or four drag strips or dirt tracks on any given summer weekend than show up to compete at Bonneville all year.
WE think it's important - but in the broad spectrum of motorsports, we're a gnat on a pimple.
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Yeah, maybe, Chris, but where's that pimple -- on a butt or a nipple? Things might not be as bad as you think. :-D
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lol
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Yeah, maybe, Chris, but where's that pimple -- on a butt or a nipple? Things might not be as bad as you think. :-D
hahahahaha....
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Sam, it's numbers - you'll get more regular contestants on any three or four drag strips or dirt tracks on any given summer weekend than show up to compete at Bonneville all year.
WE think it's important - but in the broad spectrum of motorsports, we're a gnat on a pimple.
Well... and the sport only has itself to blame for that. Especially true of the drag strips of the nation, but also of the road courses and now even circle tracks as of late, they offer better options for entry level racing. There is one single event all year that welcomes street legal cars. The wrest of the LSR community poo poos the very thought of someone driving to an event, racing, and then driving home. From what I can tell at a few levels the SCTA is almost purposefully stand off-ish to new comers. It's a freakin' great sport, and it deserves to go on, but I don't know if i CAN go on without making itself more accessible to the totally clueless (such as myself). Also, The NHRA, IHRA and SCCA from what I can tell do a damn site better job and promoting their sport. Now true, those events have the advantage of not holding their events out in BFE. The first step in getting more people interested in bonneville is arranging more events in urban areas (or suburban areas) on air fields. 1 mile and half mile events for barely modified street legal vehicles held once a month in every state would be a HUGE help. Get people to show up for those, more often, have 4 to 6 events for street legal vehicles per year out on the salt and out el mirage and you'll see numbers come up and come up fast.
Don't take this the wrong way, but honestly, dealing with the SCTA and the way it runs races makes it all seem too serious and intimidating on the surface of it. It's off putting. Even if one puts those feelings asside, there isn't much of a chance for anyone to experiance "the way things really are." So people scratch the surface, get intimidated, and piss off back to their local drag strip. If there were more events at air strips where people had more chance to be exposed to the world, those people would more than likely stick it out and participate. It's why the ECTA is experiencing so much growth.
With those conditions in place, getting people behind your cause is going to more than just an uphill battle, it's going to be uphill, on mud, in a hurricane. It's gonna suck.
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Lots more mile or mile and a half events all over the country are a great idea. I'm all for it. Actually there are quite a few now. Have you looked into Mojave? Or the Silver State events? And then don't forget what the SC in SCTA stand for. Not South Carolina.
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Lots more mile or mile and a half events all over the country are a great idea. I'm all for it. Actually there are quite a few now. Have you looked into Mojave? Or the Silver State events? And then don't forget what the SC in SCTA stand for. Not South Carolina.
I haven't and it's because for whatever reason the salt holds a special attraction to me. Of course that also leaves me with the learning to drink from the fire hose problem. I'll look into them, I'm not sure what they offer for street legal vehicles. Again... REALLY bad promotion of events.
As far as what the SC stands for, I'm aware. I'm trying hard not to pigeon hole them because their from California. :P In any case I think the SCTA presents themselves in a way that's a problem for a lot of hot rodders, as well as sets standards for vehicles that aren't very realistic for the every day man. If someone doesn't have a horse in the race they don't care. If someone actively stops them from having a horse in the race they are going to care even less.
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Take the Dodge to Daytona.
NASCAR is so much more friendly. Goodbye and Good Luck!
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Take the Dodge to Daytona.
NASCAR is so much more friendly. Goodbye and Good Luck!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1_WZqxRHbM
It might not be daytona, but events like this are popping up all over in the midwest and east coast and are growing in popularity. It might not be daytona, but it's there.
Is that what you want for the salt flats? To be an exclusive club only for elite vehicles with big name sponsors and millions to toss around on a single event? It won't survive that. The sport and the place will be a thing of the past under those expectations. Your attitude and ones like yours are the problem.
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No -- we want to put a 15-mile salt bed in every state for weekend races -- hoping to attract newcomers to tell us how to run our association to encompass outdated equipment (not that we don't have vintage classes).
The SCTA rules are made by the participants -- and have been for years. They really need some new blood to tell them how to turn their business around -- speaking from no or very little experience.
Actually to the SCTA would be doing just fine if not for bad weather conditions and salt depletion. If you think salt is in your blood and can't work with the tried and true purveyors, you're and your like are welcome to organize and hold your own events.
I can't think of a thing that's stopping you. But bitch-ing about the SCTA without even entering one of their events, well -- gee whiz -- you expect the welcome mat or what. Big hat, no cattle.
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"To be an exclusive club only for elite vehicles with big name sponsors and millions to toss around on a single event?"
This quote shows how little you know about Bonneville SpeedWeek. 550+ entries with real sponsorship? Like "Joe's Plumbing Supply" sponsors a 125cc bike?
Lots of working stiffs that can afford only one event a year. And it's worked for years. Ask the guy from the east coast how much of his expendable income it costs to attend SpeedWeek. And why would he do it year after year.
I'm thinking the "Burning Man" might be more up your alley.
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Ben,
Judging by your previous statements I suspect that you have not actually been to any of the events at the Bonneville Salt Flats.
From my experience the number of participants is not much of an issue and the organizers are very helpful.
I started as a spectator then helped on crews, did the 130 and 150 club and finally built something to run in an official class.
It's not that hard and the landracing people are the most helpful in any racing event I've ever been involved in.
I would suggest you go to an event before passing judgment or building a race vehicle to see if this is truly what you want to do.
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The idea that LSR is not attracting new participants is ludicrous. Compared to years ago when there would be maybe 110-120 entrants for the one meet a year. All in a single line for the single course. Both short and long course cars and bikes. Often not starting runs until noon or so after record runs. Now you have 6 meets for cars and bikes, scheduled to run, weather permitting. Four courses for some meets. And all this without BNI or anyone else soliciting entrants. LSR is run by participants for participants. Has this growth affected me? Yes. Rooms are harder to get and cost a lot more. So while you were pursuing your many other interests involving kids and dogs, The hobby has grown quite nicely. If you want something that may change their rules to accommodate your car, Have you looked into the 24 hours of lemons?
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Ben,
Judging by your previous statements I suspect that you have not actually been to any of the events at the Bonneville Salt Flats.
I haven't. I'm telling you what things look like on the surface of it. I'm telling you why people aren't interested. Some people don't want to listen to that aparently. Instead of listening they would rather tell me i'm a fool and to piss off. That sort of thing is NOT going to help your cause. It'll do exactly the opposite even.
My judgement is that to run any more than the single 130mph club event, I need $10,000 worth of truck and trailer, $100,000 worth of property to store those things, in addition to $20,000 in race car. Nobody seems to have any interest at all at looking into events to attract more persons with less invested. And then wonder why you can't get more attention for your cause... i'm telling you.. that right there IS the reason.
It's not a judgement of a personal nature, it's not a judgement at all really. It's an observation of simple facts. To go run on a drag strip the only thing you need is a car of any kind, including your mom's minivan, and a helmet. There are things that could be done with LSR in general that would attract more people. You attract more people to the scene in general and it will benefit bonneville. I don't understand why certain persons have to have such a vile reaction to the mere sugestion that there are things they could do to help themselves. It's like dealing with a drug addict in that respect...
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The idea that LSR is not attracting new participants is ludicrous. Compared to years ago when there would be maybe 110-120 entrants for the one meet a year. All in a single line for the single course. Both short and long course cars and bikes. Often not starting runs until noon or so after record runs. Now you have 6 meets for cars and bikes, scheduled to run, weather permitting. Four courses for some meets. And all this without BNI or anyone else soliciting entrants. LSR is run by participants for participants. Has this growth affected me? Yes. Rooms are harder to get and cost a lot more. So while you were pursuing your many other interests involving kids and dogs, The hobby has grown quite nicely. If you want something that may change their rules to accommodate your car, Have you looked into the 24 hours of lemons?
kids and dogs? I kind of hate both. I don't follow you there.
It's not to accomodate MY car, it's to get more people in. The statement was "why doesn't save the salt get any traction." I'm telling you, this is why....My car has nothing to do with this. Now if you guys want to stick your head in the sand and ignore the situtation and just hope it'll get better, be my guest. I don't think it'll work out though.
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The situation is that the SCTA SpeedWeek event is attracting more participants very year. Even when they can't have a meet. Thank goodness that you have found a way for them to expand their customer base.
The El Mirage meets are overflowing with entries -- so many that it's hard to get one run (that's all that's possible with one course) done in a day. We need people like you to help us grow.
Quit the bitchin' or look elsewhere. Everyone here has demonstrated a willingness to help you. You just keep running down an organization and have ALL the answers to ALL the questions asked or implied. We welcome you to join in. No -- you can't take your Poly home and shut us down. We've met you (and your brothers) before. Join in, pay attention, make reasonable suggestions, and be a part of the process. Or not.
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Kids and dogs comes from my Googling you and your stated interests. My first trip to the salt was in '66. At that time there were 82 classes for cars. Bikes had their own book I guess. one meet a year. 82 classes. take it or leave it. BNi, USFRA, Cook and the bike meet have considerably expanded that since then. And it seems like every year this board attracts someone who says, "I really love what your doing. I have always wanted to do it myself. It's my dream to do what you do. But, I want you to change it to make it more like what i can do without all the effort." SpeedWeek doesn't need more entries to survive. Or more classes that do not require lots of preparation. It needs good weather and some way to keep salt on the course. The dike idea seems best to me. But people who are much better informed than I are working on it. They have been for years. I can only support their efforts.
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"My judgement is that to run any more than the single 130mph club event, I need $10,000 worth of truck and trailer, $100,000 worth of property to store those things, in addition to $20,000 in race car. Nobody seems to have any interest at all at looking into events to attract more persons with less invested. And then wonder why you can't get more attention for your cause... i'm telling you.. that right there IS the reason."
Seems like the cost to compete is driving you off. Bonneville and its increasing entry lists is the top of the list, creme de la creme. To run there is to join the elite, if you can't compete within the rules take your stuff to NASCAR and see if they will take you.
DW
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Well Ben, if you want to run a street car at the drags that is allowed.... granny's minivan or your old car... 16 seconds and 75 MPH... sure... lots of folks can do that.... but what if you want to run 10 seconds.... oh... or 7 seconds... check the investment, lots of us have been there as well. They have safety requirements just like us.
Most of us oldsters that race at Bonneville understand that going fast costs money and the faster you go the more safety equipment is required. That means spending money on racing. Our heads are not in the sand... or where ever you must have yours.
If you want to race the salt on a budget, go check your first threads and posts, you answers are already in print from a lot of good folks that don't owe you anything!
I would suggest if you want to continue here you clean up your act... pay attention to the advice you are given and stop acting like a spoiled kid. This is probably my last post in response to your questions and comments.... if you don't want help stay the course :|
:dhorse: :cheers:
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Mergatroyd, that's the thing. How hard will they enforce it? The letter of the law says that it is illegal to modify a vehicle in such a way that it will affect the emissions. Even changing a tire size can to that, since that will change the rpm at a given speed. This would mean that having a "tune" on a computer controlled car would be illegal, even if it only affected emissions at full throttle. This is definitely not a good thing.
I'm ignoring all the discussion about BNI/SCTA marketing/rules.
Dan,
Sorry, I forgot to use the sarcasm smiley...
I am not in favor of the EPA rule, and I do not think that a promise to "only enforce it where we think it matters" is relevant when the fine is the price of a new car. One of the draws to LSR for me is the opportunity for innovation. The EPA rule as I understand it kills anything interesting about motorsport from an amateur perspective.
No more engine swaps, no more fuel other than what the manufacturer used, and no more noise.
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My judgement is that to run any more than the single 130mph club event, I need $10,000 worth of truck and trailer, $100,000 worth of property to store those things, in addition to $20,000 in race car. Nobody seems to have any interest at all at looking into events to attract more persons with less invested. And then wonder why you can't get more attention for your cause... i'm telling you.. that right there IS the reason.
...............................................................................It seems as though you are realizing what all of us know, that racing at Bonneville requires a level of dedication. Some do and you could rent a truck for the trip. I started off with a home made trailer. Junk yard parts but made a lot of trips to the salt and lake. I keep my race car in the garage her at my house. i don't think $100,000 will qualify you for a down payment. But I have to live somewhere and that's the way it goes around here. I don't know how the 130 club could be more accommodating to someone wanting to run a street car. If you or anyone finds the requirements to hard to deal with, you never really wanted to run in the first place.
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. I don't know how the 130 club could be more accommodating to someone wanting to run a street car. If you or anyone finds the requirements to hard to deal with, you never really wanted to run in the first place.
Well for a start, they could clarify that rule about skid plates for fuel lines on unit body cars..... I mean, I THINK they are only talking about rear engine cars... but then again.....the way it's worded who the hell knows. And I've yet to get a reply from the USFRA on this... It's been a month....
I'm not even talking about any of that. I think the 130mph club thing is fine, but it's a single event held once and at only one place. It's not much of an out reach. It's not going make the levels of awareness of the sport that the NHRA, IHRA, and NASCAR have, that's why they get more attention and can muster more signatures faster for their causes. Do you want to throw your hands in the air and say "well we can't be them we'll just have to live with it" or do you want to try something else? Sitting around and expecting the government to do the right thing without some serious prodding and bad press seems delusional to me. It's not a dig at anyone, It's just the way our government works.
As far as a garage goes... hah.. yeah... I won't be able to afford that living in Portland, not on the pay a machinist makes.
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Are you a member of USFRA? Do you think that would help? Do you think Portland is more expensive than the SF Bay area? Doubt it. I'm a machinist. Many of my friends are machinists. I bought the cheapest house with a two car garage within 20 miles of the airport that qualified for a GI no down. It was a wreck. Lived in it and cleaned it up and sold it and bought a larger house near the golf course. Did the same. Bought another house in Parkside and this house I live in now. Knocked out the back wall of the garage and extended it back to make it 84 feet front to back. Poured a drive way around thee house to the two 8 foot doors in back. Yes it was a lot of work and a lot of OT to pay for all this. And I had to stay out of bars to save time and money. But then I had a place to build my first Bonneville car. I could have thrown up my hands and given up. If you want to race, race. If you would rather pose that's up to you.
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Are you a member of USFRA? Do you think that would help? Do you think Portland is more expensive than the SF Bay area? Doubt it. I'm a machinist. Many of my friends are machinists. I bought the cheapest house with a two car garage within 20 miles of the airport that qualified for a GI no down. It was a wreck. Lived in it and cleaned it up and sold it and bought a larger house near the golf course. Did the same. Bought another house in Parkside and this house I live in now. Knocked out the back wall of the garage and extended it back to make it 84 feet front to back. Poured a drive way around thee house to the two 8 foot doors in back. Yes it was a lot of work and a lot of OT to pay for all this. And I had to stay out of bars to save time and money. But then I had a place to build my first Bonneville car. I could have thrown up my hands and given up. If you want to race, race. If you would rather pose that's up to you.
overtime isn't even an option for most people in portland right now. Certainly not where I work. In fact I'm lucky to get 40 hours at this point. We're shut down again on Monday. But property prices are the same as the bay area at this point. There's a very serious housing crisis in portland right now. But since the economy still isn't very good, most jobs aren't paying that well. It's a real shit sandwhich out here right now. I'm just going to have to leave portland, that's all there is too it. Get out while I can still afford to get out. Funny enough the prices are up because of the influx of people out of the bay area. :P
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Are you a member of USFRA? Do you think that would help? Do you think Portland is more expensive than the SF Bay area? Doubt it. I'm a machinist. Many of my friends are machinists. I bought the cheapest house with a two car garage within 20 miles of the airport that qualified for a GI no down. It was a wreck. Lived in it and cleaned it up and sold it and bought a larger house near the golf course. Did the same. Bought another house in Parkside and this house I live in now. Knocked out the back wall of the garage and extended it back to make it 84 feet front to back. Poured a drive way around thee house to the two 8 foot doors in back. Yes it was a lot of work and a lot of OT to pay for all this. And I had to stay out of bars to save time and money. But then I had a place to build my first Bonneville car. I could have thrown up my hands and given up. If you want to race, race. If you would rather pose that's up to you.
overtime isn't even an option for most people in portland right now. Certainly not where I work. In fact I'm lucky to get 40 hours at this point. We're shut down again on Monday. But property prices are the same as the bay area at this point. There's a very serious housing crisis in portland right now. But since the economy still isn't very good, most jobs aren't paying that well. It's a real Subaru sandwhich out here right now. I'm just going to have to leave portland, that's all there is too it. Get out while I can still afford to get out. Funny enough the prices are up because of the influx of people out of the bay area. :P
Motorcycles. Way cheaper and smaller than cars.
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Are you a member of USFRA? Do you think that would help? Do you think Portland is more expensive than the SF Bay area? Doubt it. I'm a machinist. Many of my friends are machinists. I bought the cheapest house with a two car garage within 20 miles of the airport that qualified for a GI no down. It was a wreck. Lived in it and cleaned it up and sold it and bought a larger house near the golf course. Did the same. Bought another house in Parkside and this house I live in now. Knocked out the back wall of the garage and extended it back to make it 84 feet front to back. Poured a drive way around thee house to the two 8 foot doors in back. Yes it was a lot of work and a lot of OT to pay for all this. And I had to stay out of bars to save time and money. But then I had a place to build my first Bonneville car. I could have thrown up my hands and given up. If you want to race, race. If you would rather pose that's up to you.
overtime isn't even an option for most people in portland right now. Certainly not where I work. In fact I'm lucky to get 40 hours at this point. We're shut down again on Monday. But property prices are the same as the bay area at this point. There's a very serious housing crisis in portland right now. But since the economy still isn't very good, most jobs aren't paying that well. It's a real Subaru sandwhich out here right now. I'm just going to have to leave portland, that's all there is too it. Get out while I can still afford to get out. Funny enough the prices are up because of the influx of people out of the bay area. :P
Motorcycles. Way cheaper and smaller than cars.
Yeah....I know... The thought has been there. Especially after the One Of show last night.
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I have crewed both--- MCc are much smaller and easier to live with on and off the Salt
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In 40 years of industry I never got 1hr of O.T. Some places gave comp time but when I couldn't take all my vacation time what good was comp time . The last place I worked I left the 1st Of June with 30 days of comp time coming and 3 weeks of vacation which was all forfeited.
Both Willmington and Loring have a 135 MPH limit class for "street cars" with no safety equipment except stock seatbelts and helmet.
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Poly, we run a mustang II in F/CPRO and a bike in 650 APS/BG both on tight budgets. It is tough but doable. Also, not sure if you are aware but there was a half mile event in Portland last summer so it is around. The problem with having 1/2 and 1 mile events is it is tough to find places to do them.
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Poly, we run a mustang II in F/CPRO and a bike in 650 APS/BG both on tight budgets. It is tough but doable. Also, not sure if you are aware but there was a half mile event in Portland last summer so it is around. The problem with having 1/2 and 1 mile events is it is tough to find places to do them.
hadn't heard of the event in oregon.... again, advertising, not real great....
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McMinnville: http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,15356.0.html (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,15356.0.html)
Mike
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McMinnville: http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,15356.0.html (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,15356.0.html)
Mike
ooooooh... looks cool... although my ride would certainly bring the class of the event down several notches. Heh.
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Errr,
Back to the EPA....
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
You get the point. This is how it begins and it always ends badly if not stopped.