Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Polyhead on February 07, 2016, 08:31:34 PM
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New week, new questions from everyone's "favorite" n00b.
I've seen a couple of different setups for using AN fittings on hard line. Some of them require the tubing be flared, some of them use a compression type fitting. I've used compression fittings before for air lines and oil lines, but never for fuel and never to work with AN fittings. The compression fitting type sure does look easy to work with but flaring is probably safer... until the flare splits. I wondering what you guys prefer and why. I'm going to start replumbing the fuel system to convert it to a full return system, and I've noticed summit racing doesn't actually carry any NPT to inverted flare fittings anymore, only npt to AN. Is it time to retire the double flaring tool?
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Yes. AN fittings don't require double flares since they use a ferrule. AN fittings are all 37 degree flare angles, not 45 degrees like JIC or SAE, so you can't intermix those types with AN.
AN fittings and aluminum tubing is commonly used for fuel and oil lines. They are reliable and simple to assemble. Parker makes a line of nice tools- tubing cutters, tubing benders, flaring tools, and beading tools. Good stuff can sometimes be found in aircraft surplus stores or eBay.
For AN to NPT adapters, check out Speedway Motors, Aircraft Spruce, or Pegasus Racing.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Yes. AN fittings don't require double flares since they use a ferrule. AN fittings are all 37 degree flare angles, not 45 degrees like JIC or SAE, so you can't intermix those types with AN.
AN fittings and aluminum tubing is commonly used for fuel and oil lines. They are reliable and simple to assemble. Parker makes a line of nice tools- tubing cutters, tubing benders, flaring tools, and beading tools. Good stuff can sometimes be found in aircraft surplus stores or eBay.
For AN to NPT adapters, check out Speedway Motors, Aircraft Spruce, or Pegasus Racing.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
"• All non OEM fuel lines must be constructed of rubber, braided, or steel hard line. No aluminum/copper hard line or clear plastic hose will be allowed."
Another rule specific to the 130/150mph club event that differs from SCTA rules. So I have to use steel in the case of hardline on my ride.
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You may be talking about MS type of fittings. Used quite a but in aircraft. But I never see it sold locally. If you are thinking AN. The nonaircraft version of 37 degree plumbing is called JIC. And it's a lot cheaper. Still plenty good for anything we do. I get mine from Discount Hydraulics on line.
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You may be talking about MS type of fittings. Used quite a but in aircraft. But I never see it sold locally. If you are thinking AN. The nonaircraft version of 37 degree plumbing is called JIC. And it's a lot cheaper. Still plenty good for anything we do. I get mine from Discount Hydraulics on line.
Well, summit racing calls them AN fittings? I honestly have no clue.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ear-at165086erl/overview/
There are various other brands using the same mechanism. I'm only looking into it because it seems to me NPT to inverted flare fittings are getting hard to come by from jegs and summit. Not to mention inverted flares have always been a pain to make. But a search on summit shows npt to AN fittings, and inverted flare to AN fittings, but no NPT to inverted flare. All the fuel pumps, filters and regulators I'm looking at either have an NPT fitting or an AN fitting, nothing has inverted flare anymore. Kind of tells me inverted flare is on it's way out. I've got enough headaches with this project, and I hate doing plumbing, so i'm going to try and go with the flow on this detail at least.
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Excellent videos and tutorials here: https://www.anplumbing.com/ (https://www.anplumbing.com/)
Mike
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Excellent videos and tutorials here: https://www.anplumbing.com/ (https://www.anplumbing.com/)
Mike
That's a nice site, but, still not answering my question. I'm asking if the compression fitting style hardline ends actually f-ing work.
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Excellent videos and tutorials here: https://www.anplumbing.com/ (https://www.anplumbing.com/)
Mike
That's a nice site, but, still not answering my question. I'm asking if the compression fitting style hardline ends actually f-ing work.
Yes. They're SOP in many other forms of racing and well proven for many years.
Pete
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Yes, they work if done right. Swagelock would be my choice.
BTW, I was not addressing the SCTA rule book on aluminum hard line & AN fittings; if aluminum is not allowed, stainless steel AN fittings & stainless steel AN fittings are available- usually found in 3,000psi hydraulic systems.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Thanks guys.
Pete, I hear you on swagelok. I was watching videos about them last night, and reading up on them this morning. (I've got time since I'm on the injured list at work, I keep telling them you don't need discs in you're back but they ain't havin' it) They appear to be superior in every way, save for maybe fasten/unfasten cycles. Looks to me like swagelok is designed to be cycled a few dozen times but not a lot more where AN fittings are designed to be cycled on and off hundreds of times. I'm going to price things out to see what it would cost just to go swagelok the entire way vs. AN fittings. The swagelok two collet design is defintely superior to the compression fitting based AN adapters I'm seeing which use only a single collet.
Maybe a better idea is to use swagelok in the areas that will be disassembled rarely (fuel pump, fuel tank, regulators) and AN in areas where frequent disassembly or connections to flexible line are needed such as fuel filter connections, connections from frame rail to engine, and connection to the carburetor. But then you get into the problem of having a mix of connectors which can be seen as bad practice. Then again, using a mix because you want to play to the strengths of each connector is good engineering. Also AN fittings may be easier to track down at a meet if I get myself in a bind.
I suppose I shouldn't worry about it so much. There are plenty of cars on the planet that use nothing but rubber line, nipple fittings and hose clamps. There are also a lot of burned up cars in the world.
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My cars use all AN and JIC. NPT to 37 degree are all JIC. Mostly stainless but without the FAA approval. I can not understand mixing fasteners. The advantage escapes me. 37 degree flares in steel tubing are very easy to make.
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My cars use all AN and JIC. NPT to 37 degree are all JIC. Mostly stainless but without the FAA approval. I can not understand mixing fasteners. The advantage escapes me. 37 degree flares in steel tubing are very easy to make.
Because swagelok doesn't require a flare and makes a stronger more leak proof joint than a flare but is limited in regards to the number of on and off operations it'll withstand before you have to cut the end of the pipe off and install a new fitting. Might be cheaper too, having trouble finding prices on any of the swagelok stuff. Seems that, if you have to ask....
Also, so JIC and AN are interchangable then? I realized they were both 37 degree but I thought the threading was going to be different or something.
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You're better off to stick with one or the other. The only time you'll have a problem with mixing things up is when it's most difficult to correct the problem. That philosophy comes from hard won experience. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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Yes JIC and AN are the same except the AN fittings have FAA aproval. As far as I am concerned the "AN" fittings you get from Earls and such are made of bubble gum and I would have been in real trouble had I ever used one on an aircraft.
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So since I had the day off, I decided to go for a little ride. Swagelok have a Portland office. Having learned that, I decided to go over and look at things. I'm sold, and the staff there really hooked me up. I do apologize... I guess I asked about AN and now have decided to go in a compleatly different direction but I really like the swadgelok stuff better. It's made of steel and designed to last forever. What really sold me was the peice of 3/4" stainless tubing that hard pressurized to 340,000psi, where it burst. The pipe failed, but the connectors were seemingly undamaged. You could still assemble and disassemble the joint.
They also showed me several fittings they make so that their system can be adapted to work with AN systems.
Like RichFox said, the other stuff was made of "bubble gum" and I feel the same way when I look at those fittings. It won't look as "race", it'll look more like industrial.
Also... swag... nothing makes me happy like swag.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/fzWspvpbR4jLtEI3_bWS0W2DF8XL33Ez0tCv9m-39jwcbBJ-30Feof3XK-0WmmAEUeKU0QILQhIVqDddEQzHnUSu6Rnb1TJY02PZs744uQ1j06jSJFk_EoJfF2J42q-3jtnc9UFSCtdGXAYG-gPQPisep_EZwZfFcxl5dOoW9MhHxTdugkvjMzFg_lJowwvfI03IXthPINzsnRDZ0TGAjl8pnAv6ucNiSqaY4Goaz__HP-CFKIltDZCLMTPJxV_UC044pH9RGNvS3W2RLCD64n0KxY8OYpg33HBqh53pRZfvAMFhas8nIiPHvKGnEqb7Uo23ayZLlU2YTXyL-zr0nRaCoGr1g5iznYS-tBFnOZtuS5thgYzMfcGcnxL1URKSjBAUmUKaV8Xh9E6AADadt0lj_WW_u-PWsb-V1nx-6VkQQ-yPlInQOrywUTY2Wc0J1-SAqFmzfvijEMWpB2i2wzzVMFz7eD3KjQAc6cV4loY4xekouAqb9hoiz-gY7BTlYbt_UlW2GNjGPXK0dqOkOYq1J1ybe45yqlVNVmFpIuDRjJa9_4cvG5bpH6NP0HjL4mYk=w393-h698-no)
https://goo.gl/photos/5acdeSupxcKqeMHdA
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Glad you liked their fittings; $ but nice quality.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Glad you liked their fittings; $ but nice quality.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
well, given I don't own any AN fittings, nor any tools for them, it's not like I'm re-investing in a new system. It's also not like there will be a lot of fittings on the car. I think for a few hundred dollars I could get myself setup to deal with them and any issues that may come up on the salt, that includes keeping some hardware to go from them to AN fittings around. The real deal sealer was the way they treated me. Mr. nobody, from the street, gave me all the information I could use, let me look around the facility, hooked me up with plenty of print literature and the electronic catalog.
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AN and MS fittings really are the same thing. AN stands for Army Navy and MS stands for Military Standard. The name change was several years ago and some of us still use AN to identify the fittings
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Perhaps. But the MS fittings that i am familiar with are compression fittings. They look very much the same as AN when assembled. And have the same thread. Just attach to the tubing without a flare.
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It is bad enough when you go into the "fittings" store and come out with a small bag of a few AN fittings that you need and you have spent $100, wait till you come out of the Swag Lok store! Check you bank account before entering. Probably the very best tubing fitting you can buy but EXPENSIVE!!!
Rex
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Swage loc are very expensive but very good. I used SS ones in industrial applications under severe conditions and never had a problem.
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Here is the cost break down as I see it. To make a junction with an fittings I need the fitting in the carb, npt to 6-AN, and the Ferrell and nut on the tubing. $2.50 for the npt to AN fitting, $2 fitting and $2 for the tube nut. $4.50 to make the junction plus time spent flaring tubing. With Swagelok the npt to 3/8 tube is $5. No time spent flaring. It's the same cost nearly. What's my time worth?
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With the friendly & helpful reception you received, why not ask Swagelock for sponsorship?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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With the friendly & helpful reception you received, why not ask Swagelock for sponsorship?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Because my cars total lack of speed and utterly repulsive looks? Nobody with any sense would sponsor it... Maybe save for krylon...
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Now, now, don't go putting down your junk. A marketing team might find wondrous stuff on which to use their product on your Plymouth, so don't give up without at least hinting that you'd be happy to wear their sticker.
Stranger things have happened. Dressed in leathers and on the race bike -- I appeared in a Nikon ad and they paid me $$. Lots of us have managed to wrangle a buck or three out of someone, so really -- keep you eyes on the ground and your nose the the sky and don't look up at waterfalls. :roll:
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Now, now, don't go putting down your junk. A marketing team might find wondrous stuff on which to use their product on your Plymouth, so don't give up without at least hinting that you'd be happy to wear their sticker.
Stranger things have happened. Dressed in leathers and on the race bike -- I appeared in a Nikon ad and they paid me $$. Lots of us have managed to wrangle a buck or three out of someone, so really -- keep you eyes on the ground and your nose the the sky and don't look up at waterfalls. :roll:
Plymouth!? What kind of good for nothing so and so do you take me for?
I don't know... I'm really not the kind of person to even ask. It would be nice but then your kind of representing some one and something and that's an issue. I don't think my heap is really a good representation of lsr, would make you guys look bad and maybe spoil things for someone that takes this all far more seriously than I ever will. Not to mention, I can't imagine my rust bucket doing swagelok's image any favors.
If they offer anything I sure won't say no but... It's like when an 18 or 19 year old offers up fully free sex with my old, tired, going grey ass. I know damn well I should say no, but I never do.
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Polyhead said: "It's like when an 18 or 19 year old offers up fully free sex with my old, tired, going grey Acura. I know Dodge well I should say no, but I never do."
Yeah, I know whatcha mean. Even with Nancy on my arm I have the same problem all the time. It must be the sheer animal magnetism that you and I exude, hey? :roll:
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"animal magnetism"?
Does this mean you're attracted to animals?
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Stan, yes -- that's just what it means. Thanks for letting the rest of the folks here know, too. :-)
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When it comes to using AN fittings on hard lines, both flaring and compression fittings are common methods, and each has its pros and cons.
Flaring:
Pros:
Provides a reliable and strong connection.
Can be considered a traditional method, widely used and accepted.
Cons:
Requires a double flaring tool, which may take some practice to use correctly.
If not done properly, there is a risk of the flare splitting or leaking.
Compression Fittings:
Pros:
Generally easier and quicker to install.
No need for a flaring tool.
Cons:
Some enthusiasts and professionals may prefer flaring for critical applications like fuel lines due to the perceived reliability.
For a fuel system, especially one that involves high-pressure situations, some people may lean towards flaring for the added security and strength of the connection. However, many modern compression fittings are designed to handle high-pressure applications and can provide a reliable seal.