Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Dakin Engineering on January 28, 2016, 07:11:56 PM
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Please vote AND comment.
Sam
#6062
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No the State of Utah should have stewardship of the flats.
http://works.bepress.com/robert_natelson/19/
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I think the quickest resolution to restoration will be continued pressure on the BLM. Here's why -
1. Intrepid is already under papers with the BLM/Federal Government. If that changes, there will be a legal challenge, likely on the part of Intrepid, as to lease rights. Changing land lords mid stream will only delay any possible implementation of any plan the Utah Alliance has put together.
2. If oversight changes hands, the whole dynamic changes from an international and national issue into a local one. Those of us from Nevada, California, Oregon, Montana, Iowa and Wisconsin will have little or no political pressure that we can apply. In short, the majority of us who race there will lose leverage.
3. There is no guarantee that Utah alone will have the political will, power, bankroll or inclination to go head to head with the mining industry.
4. Under federal oversight, legally, the BSF has a protected status as an area of Critical Environmental Concern. While I think that the BLM has been negligent in their oversight, there is no guarantee that Utah will provide a similar status - and more importantly, why should they?
5. The International Speedway is listed on the National Register of Historic Places, which restricts actions that can occur on the salt. Again, I think the BLM has been negligent, but again, there is no guarantee that local officials will do any better.
6. Sad truth of the matter is, if Intrepid shuts down, we're all screwed. They own the laydown equipment. Does anybody here really think the State of Utah would take them to court to fulfill even their minimum responsibility to replenish what salt they collect in Potash extraction? Heck, no. What you'd see is the classic "We're moving our operations" technique to extract concessions on oversight and tax relief from Utah.
So those are the reasons I've voted to maintain Federal oversight. Our task is to see that the Feds do their job.
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Please vote, even if you have no comment.
Sam
#6062
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The federal government has no business being involved in this type program. The state should have the rights to the resources that are contained within its borders and should use them as they see fit.
Those closest to the resource (BSF, Yellowstone, ANWR...) have the most to gain by the proper management of the resource. Having some bureaucrat from thousands of miles away understand the intricacies of the local landscape and culture isn't possible. If there is power to be had in it, it belongs in the hands of the locals.
The federal government's desire is to amass more and more power and control. They have proven time and time again that they don't have the tools to manage these programs effectively. Look at the failed large government programs (VA, Social Security...) and you can see the track record isn't good. Look at what they have done at the BSF already.
Who here can say that what the BLM has done at BSF is a successful program? If the goal was to move as much salt from the north to the south then I guess they were successful...
Utah has the most to gain or lose with the BSF. Wendover has a stake in the BSF even though it is in Utah. Local people in that area should be the ones that are screaming that their resource is being squandered. You think that some fat-cat bureaucrat 2,232 miles away has enough skin in the game to care what happens to a place he has never been or ever will be?
No sir, not the BLM and not any other federal agency has business being involved in these endeavors. The power of the people should be retained at the local level so that the use or non-use of the resources remain tied to the local economy and the future of the locals. Only then can we be certain that revenue generating potential of the resource will be balanced and nurtured for future generations to come.
Take a page out of animal husbandry, farming, ranching...they all understand that there is a finite amount of growing time and a limit to the resource they have. Getting the most out of it while sustaining its continuation is their goal. Federal agencies don't get that as they only see dollars and that is all that matters to them until it is gone.
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7. Utah handed over management of the BSF to the feds in 1976. I sincerely doubt the state wants to incur the cost of management again, nor do the taxpayers of Utah want to subsidize our hobby in order to line the pockets of Nevada casino owners. In short, Utah washed their hands of it.
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7. Utah handed over management of the BSF to the feds in 1976. I sincerely doubt the state wants to incur the cost of management again, nor do the taxpayers of Utah want to subsidize our hobby in order to line the pockets of Nevada casino owners. In short, Utah washed their hands of it.
Utah needs to hand an invoice to the BLM for the cost of restoring it to what it was supposed to be when they took it over...Then they could privatize it, handle it as a municipality, appoint a BSF Board of Management...anything is better than what they've done. Maybe they need to annex it to Nevada?
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Why is it that this thread has 234 views, and yet only 19 votes?
I "get it" that there are some folks checking the thread every hour, so that the number of votes will never match the number of "views".
But my math says: 234/19 = 12.315
I've voted and checked the thread once . . . . .
WTH? :|
If you are taking a look, take a moment to vote, . . . . . . PLEASE.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Bbarn, I understand the perspective, but as a municipality or a privately held property, the only financial incentive to oversee it or manage it would be for extractive industry.
It's a salt pan, and it's already an engineered environment.
If racers want to race there, okay, but if they can't, it's still an extractive industrial basin that contributes to the local and state economy.
Think about who would serve on the board or government agency overseeing it. How would they be chosen? Whose interests would they ally themselves with? Who, other than a mining concern, would have the capital to do anything else with it?
The racing community that utilizes it is primarily made up of volunteers working on a shoestring. Our whole Speedweek brings in less money to the region than New Years Eve in West Wendover.
The only reason we have anything close to legal status at this table is the fact that the Bonneville International Speedway is on the National Registry of historic places, as declared by the feds.
Again, I understand the frustration, but changing the hierarchy at this point is more likely to damage our status - especially non-Utah residents such as you and me - rather than get us closer to an effort for reclamation.
As unsavory as the BLM may be to deal with, there are no indications that a community based authority will, given the opportunity and responsibility, take our concerns any more seriously, have the capital to oversee the BSF any more effectively than the BLM, or have the political will or strength to protect the Speedway.
I really think our best chance is holding the BLM's feet to the fire.
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All good points MM but my perspective may be a little different. I think that since all the hubbub over BSF has been raised, mining is likely to become non-existent sooner rather than later at B'ville.
I suspect that the BLM having its feet held to the fire (happening now even) is putting pressure on Intrepid to do something to correct the problem. I believe that when the BLM reaches the conclusion that it is about dollars and Intrepid didn't live up to the *cough* standard that was set out *cough* they will tell Intrepid they need to pony up the dollars for reclamation.
When that happens we will see Intrepid file for bankruptcy and dissolve faster than the racing surface at Bonneville. That will leave the BLM responsible for the reclamation expense. Being a bureaucracy it will take years for a plan, funds and process to be approved and administered. All the while - mining is over.
Fast forward a few years beyond that... I think the status of it being an international speedway - landmark - icon of the USA and the absence of mining sets the BSF on course to be an almost maintenance free facility. Racers do what they do - survey, setup timing, setup pits, bring in porta-potty...race, clean-up after themselves and go home. The other 50 weeks out of the year it is a visual expanse that visitors can enjoy the sheer beauty of.
That isn't expensive to maintain...it needs a guardian AFTER reclamation which isn't expensive.
Mining needs to stop, future mining needs to be canceled, the environment needs restored and it needs to be left alone - limited to activities the public can enjoy without harming that environment.
I am not a tree-huger or a hippie (not that there is anything wrong with being either of those ;) but I do believe in responsible stewardship. If we don't act responsibly within our environment bad things happen. We have plumbing because we discovered long ago that we can't live in our own waste. Then we discovered that pumping it a few miles off shore isn't enough, neither is 20 miles. Treating it before it hits water is the most economical means of dealing with it and we are healthier for it.
Clear-cutting timber was the way to go years ago as it was economical. Now, we send in feller-bunchers that do multiple times the work as a single saw-man could do with little impact on the environment of the forest. Not only that, they selective cut the right size trees and replant what they harvest otherwise there isn't any future in logging.
What has happened at the BSF is pretty much a raping of the land. If it weren't for the racers screaming about it, nothing would be done to protect what is there. The BLM would have collected its 30 pieces of silver, the miners would have sold their goods and the Bonneville Mudflats would be left behind.
Someone needs to be the guardian for the area. Yes, the BLM needs to be involved but only to the extent they return it to its historical condition. Once that is complete - get out and stay out should be the new motto. If it is going to retain its historical significance and continue to exist in that context someone needs to become its true guardian - I can't see that being the role of the BLM.
"That's just my opinion, I could be wrong" -Dennis Miller
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I feel the BLM is the only one with enough power to keep all of the organizations that use the Bonneville Salt Flats in check, whether its mining, filming or racing. The State of Utah really has not shown much of interest in the area, just look to the east at the toxic waste dumps just 40 miles from Wendover. The State of Utah and Toole county has always been about the revenue and really light on the preservation of our resourses, so I feel its the BLM, that has the biggest teeth.
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The locals don't want the mining industry to go away... and I believe they will be there till the end of their current lease or until there is no longer any salt or potash to extract and sell.
The BLM does not seem to want to hold the mining organization responsible for destruction, in fact the BLM believes that all that salt that has left in rail cars over the last 50 years or so came from the brine aquifer. They think the salt is just naturally thinning the last 50 years although it didn't naturally thin for the thousands of years before mining.
Sure weather the last 2 years was a big factor, but was it such a big factor because the salt layer was too thin to handle it. I recall having major storms come through and nobody broke through the crust, the salt dried quickly and a day or so later we were back to racing.
So who should manage the flats... that is quite the question with no easy answer. Utah was allowing strip mining before they turned it over to the Feds.... Why exactly did they do that... was the money playing out... who knows. The Feds just continued the game. There was a lot of salt on the flats in the late 70s, there is a lot less now. A lot of it is sitting in the ponds across the street.
I hope the BLM feels the pressure and forces restoration of the flats... it would be nice if it happens in my lifetime
I guess I now have to vote...
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It is my view that the BLM should remain in control, with the following criteria; NO MORE mining leases or fees paid to the BLM.
In short, remove the financial incentive to destroy public land.
Let it be an albatross around their neck, they can only spend money to restore their mess.
The retirement of leases includes those held by the state of Utah.
And when Intrepid Wendover walks away from their mine, the federal government exercises Eminent Domain to return the mined Salt to the racing surface at the expense of the BLM.
The expense to come out of their current budget, no new funding to do the job they were supposed to do.
Sam
#6062
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Sam, try not to live in Bernie's world... The BLM is a bureaucracy... it exists to maintain itself.
Nothing happens in the government world without money.... and its eventual mismanagement. :-o
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although it didn't naturally thin for the thousands of years before mining.
That's actually not true. Geological record shows that he salt use to be hundreds of feet deep. So, it has been thinning for thousands of years. Now, if that rate has accelerated since mining began, I couldn't tell you.
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Read the bio on Sally, Secretary of Dept of Interior, which includes the BLM. Sounds like she likes to protect public lands. Must be a contradiction in it somewhere.
https://www.doi.gov/sally-jewell
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although it didn't naturally thin for the thousands of years before mining.
That's actually not true. Geological record shows that he salt use to be hundreds of feet deep. So, it has been thinning for thousands of years. Now, if that rate has accelerated since mining began, I couldn't tell you.
Poly... please direct us to those geological records.... I can see by the shoreline marks the water was hundreds of feet deep in Lake Bonneville but I have never seen anything showing or claiming a salt crust of hundreds of feet. :x
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although it didn't naturally thin for the thousands of years before mining.
That's actually not true. Geological record shows that he salt use to be hundreds of feet deep. So, it has been thinning for thousands of years. Now, if that rate has accelerated since mining began, I couldn't tell you.
So, where did the salt go over those thousands of years?
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although it didn't naturally thin for the thousands of years before mining.
That's actually not true. Geological record shows that he salt use to be hundreds of feet deep. So, it has been thinning for thousands of years. Now, if that rate has accelerated since mining began, I couldn't tell you.
Poly... please direct us to those geological records.... I can see by the shoreline marks the water was hundreds of feet deep in Lake Bonneville but I have never seen anything showing or claiming a salt crust of hundreds of feet. :x
read it in a book when I was in high school. Can't recall which one. The lake depth at peak was somewhere in the naiborhood of 1000ft. I read a lot of geology books as a kid.
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"read it in a book when I was in high school. Can't recall which one. The lake depth at peak was somewhere in the naiborhood of 1000ft. I read a lot of geology books as a kid."
http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/salt_lake/recreation/bonneville_salt_flats/Bonneville_Salt_Flats_History.html
Poly, the BLM site states that at one point, the water level at Lake Bonneville was 1000 feet deep. Could that be what you were thinking of?
John
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I have been asking this for years, but nobody has ever, answered me. I believe that before the United States Army Air Corp started flying the most secret and valuable aircraft in the world from the Wendover Air Base in preparation for the Atomic bombing of Japan, they verified how thick the Bonneville Salt Flats were. They knew exactly where or where not the pilots flying those B-29 Superfortress could land in an emergency! It would have taken a survey crew a couple weeks to drill and document the thickness of the flats. Where are those records? It ain't "Top Secret" anymore, or is it?
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"read it in a book when I was in high school. Can't recall which one. The lake depth at peak was somewhere in the naiborhood of 1000ft. I read a lot of geology books as a kid."
http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/salt_lake/recreation/bonneville_salt_flats/Bonneville_Salt_Flats_History.html
Poly, the BLM site states that at one point, the water level at Lake Bonneville was 1000 feet deep. Could that be what you were thinking of?
John
Not at all. I clearly recall that the salt crust had slowly erroded over the thousands of years since it's creation. It makes sense really. Nothing on the surface of this planet is permanent, everything erodes.
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....everything erodes....
Everything that erodes is also redeposited some place else :wink:.
I've also never read anyplace about the salt depth being anywhere near that thickness but like the others have said Lake Bonneville was that deep before it overflowed into what is now the Snake and cut a huge gorge out and emptied out a lot of that depth in a very short period of time.
In Salt Lake City as I look eastward, I see on the western side of the Wasatch Mountains an ancient wave-eroded bench 800 feet higher than the city. That widespread bench was formed by erosion at 5,050 feet above sea level. It marks the old shoreline ("bathtub ring") of ancient Lake Bonneville, the largest Ice Age lake to form within the Great Basin. This old lake was comparable in volume to Lake Michigan, and occupied almost 20,000 square miles in eastern Nevada, western Utah, and southern Idaho. The surface of Lake Bonneville was about one third of the area of Utah. This massive lake attained a maximum depth of 1,000 feet and was 800 feet deep over Salt Lake City. It
http://www.icr.org/article/red-rock-pass-spillway-bonneville-flood/
Sumner
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The locals don't want the mining industry to go away... and I believe they will be there till the end of their current lease or until there is no longer any salt or potash to extract and sell.
The BLM does not seem to want to hold the mining organization responsible for destruction, in fact the BLM believes that all that salt that has left in rail cars over the last 50 years or so came from the brine aquifer. They think the salt is just naturally thinning the last 50 years although it didn't naturally thin for the thousands of years before mining.
Sure weather the last 2 years was a big factor, but was it such a big factor because the salt layer was too thin to handle it. I recall having major storms come through and nobody broke through the crust, the salt dried quickly and a day or so later we were back to racing.
So who should manage the flats... that is quite the question with no easy answer. Utah was allowing strip mining before they turned it over to the Feds.... Why exactly did they do that... was the money playing out... who knows. The Feds just continued the game. There was a lot of salt on the flats in the late 70s, there is a lot less now. A lot of it is sitting in the ponds across the street.
I hope the BLM feels the pressure and forces restoration of the flats... it would be nice if it happens in my lifetime
I guess I now have to vote...
The locals don't want the mining industry to go away? Hmmm you must have a vast knowlege of the people who live here.
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....everything erodes....
Everything that erodes is also redeposited some place else :wink:.
I've also never read anyplace about the salt depth being anywhere near that thickness but like the others have said Lake Bonneville was that deep before it overflowed into what is now the Snake and cut a huge gorge out and emptied out a lot of that depth in a very short period of time.
In Salt Lake City as I look eastward, I see on the western side of the Wasatch Mountains an ancient wave-eroded bench 800 feet higher than the city. That widespread bench was formed by erosion at 5,050 feet above sea level. It marks the old shoreline ("bathtub ring") of ancient Lake Bonneville, the largest Ice Age lake to form within the Great Basin. This old lake was comparable in volume to Lake Michigan, and occupied almost 20,000 square miles in eastern Nevada, western Utah, and southern Idaho. The surface of Lake Bonneville was about one third of the area of Utah. This massive lake attained a maximum depth of 1,000 feet and was 800 feet deep over Salt Lake City. It
http://www.icr.org/article/red-rock-pass-spillway-bonneville-flood/
Sumner
A link to a creationist website... well, I can discredit anything you have to say from here on out.
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The locals don't want the mining industry to go away? Hmmm you must have a vast knowlege of the people who live here.
:|
Mayor Crawford, I defer to you on this one.
Is there a consensus on the part of Wendoverians toward the operation?
I dare say we assumed a bias toward a large employer on the part of locals.
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....everything erodes....
Everything that erodes is also redeposited some place else :wink:.
I've also never read anyplace about the salt depth being anywhere near that thickness but like the others have said Lake Bonneville was that deep before it overflowed into what is now the Snake and cut a huge gorge out and emptied out a lot of that depth in a very short period of time.
In Salt Lake City as I look eastward, I see on the western side of the Wasatch Mountains an ancient wave-eroded bench 800 feet higher than the city. That widespread bench was formed by erosion at 5,050 feet above sea level. It marks the old shoreline ("bathtub ring") of ancient Lake Bonneville, the largest Ice Age lake to form within the Great Basin. This old lake was comparable in volume to Lake Michigan, and occupied almost 20,000 square miles in eastern Nevada, western Utah, and southern Idaho. The surface of Lake Bonneville was about one third of the area of Utah. This massive lake attained a maximum depth of 1,000 feet and was 800 feet deep over Salt Lake City. It
http://www.icr.org/article/red-rock-pass-spillway-bonneville-flood/
Sumner
A link to a creationist website... well, I can discredit anything you have to say from here on out.
Well I'm not a 'creationist' but the info about the Bonneville Lake does match up with most the geomorphology I've read about the lake. As for the discrediting believe me my feelings won't be hurt in this instance,
Sumner
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....everything erodes....
Everything that erodes is also redeposited some place else :wink:.
I've also never read anyplace about the salt depth being anywhere near that thickness but like the others have said Lake Bonneville was that deep before it overflowed into what is now the Snake and cut a huge gorge out and emptied out a lot of that depth in a very short period of time.
In Salt Lake City as I look eastward, I see on the western side of the Wasatch Mountains an ancient wave-eroded bench 800 feet higher than the city. That widespread bench was formed by erosion at 5,050 feet above sea level. It marks the old shoreline ("bathtub ring") of ancient Lake Bonneville, the largest Ice Age lake to form within the Great Basin. This old lake was comparable in volume to Lake Michigan, and occupied almost 20,000 square miles in eastern Nevada, western Utah, and southern Idaho. The surface of Lake Bonneville was about one third of the area of Utah. This massive lake attained a maximum depth of 1,000 feet and was 800 feet deep over Salt Lake City. It
http://www.icr.org/article/red-rock-pass-spillway-bonneville-flood/
Sumner
A link to a creationist website... well, I can discredit anything you have to say from here on out.
Well I'm not a 'creationist' but the info about the Bonneville Lake does match up with most the geomorphology I've read about the lake. As for the discrediting believe me my feelings won't be hurt in this instance,
Sumner
I just can't trust anything creationists have to say. but you are't one so I retract that statement. The track record of them flat out lying is just puts them beyond trust. They may not be in this case, but i'm not willing to put any time into anything they have to say trying to work it out.
As for what happened to the salt when it erroded. It's salt. It can be dissolved readily in water once it's broken up into small peices. I would suspect it's washed away. At this point though, there is too much man made interference to test any conditions currently existing to know one way or another. But, salt flats SLOWLY shrinking is the norm. This is seen in africa's great salt flats. However, to think that we aren't increasing the rate would be totally foolish.
Part of me wonders, which is cheaper, trying to keep the salt there, or letting it go. Say ALL of the salt disapears in 20 years, there is NOTHING left. Could we then pave a 10 mile long by 1/4 mile wide road and race on that? What would that cost? Would it be cheaper than trying to save the salt? Then again I guess the BLM would never allow such a construction project... but then again, once all the salt is gone does the BLM has any point being involved? With nothing left to conserve, why would they?
I'm hoping we just find a new spot to run all together. Maybe get the millitary to come up off of one it's many dry lake beds. The salt flats just see unsavable to me. It's the old profits vs. people thing again and profits always always always win. The only way this will ever get turned in to the benefit of the racers is if the racers went out and bought up all the mining rights. Become the mine operators and then you get to say what gets done with the "tailings."
I would be nice if one single mine has ever been a good steward of the land, but it's never happened in all of man kinds history. They get the profits, and then we get to spend tax money cleaning up the mess in every single case. It's going to be no different here. Can;t wait for my tax dollars to help start the next mine somewhere, so it can make a mess, and then spend more tax dollars cleaning up that mess after it's gone "bankrupt"
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....everything erodes....
Everything that erodes is also redeposited some place else :wink:.
I've also never read anyplace about the salt depth being anywhere near that thickness but like the others have said Lake Bonneville was that deep before it overflowed into what is now the Snake and cut a huge gorge out and emptied out a lot of that depth in a very short period of time.
In Salt Lake City as I look eastward, I see on the western side of the Wasatch Mountains an ancient wave-eroded bench 800 feet higher than the city. That widespread bench was formed by erosion at 5,050 feet above sea level. It marks the old shoreline ("bathtub ring") of ancient Lake Bonneville, the largest Ice Age lake to form within the Great Basin. This old lake was comparable in volume to Lake Michigan, and occupied almost 20,000 square miles in eastern Nevada, western Utah, and southern Idaho. The surface of Lake Bonneville was about one third of the area of Utah. This massive lake attained a maximum depth of 1,000 feet and was 800 feet deep over Salt Lake City. It
http://www.icr.org/article/red-rock-pass-spillway-bonneville-flood/
Sumner
A link to a creationist website... well, I can discredit anything you have to say from here on out.
Well I'm not a 'creationist' but the info about the Bonneville Lake does match up with most the geomorphology I've read about the lake. As for the discrediting believe me my feelings won't be hurt in this instance,
Sumner
Well it pisses me off that a newbe wanabe like polymouth could discredit you after all the informative post you have contributed.
JL222
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.....I just can't trust anything creationists have to say. but you are't one so I retract that statement. The track record of them flat out lying is just puts them beyond trust. They may not be in this case, but i'm not willing to put any time into anything they have to say trying to work it out.....
I might not be a creationist but I respect their right to have their views. I thought that was one of the great things about this country. The fellow who wrote that article is in my view a very credible geologist on the subject at hand. I see no difference in his interpretation of the history of Lake Bonneville than those of other geologists.
Hopefully you are never hurt on the salt but if that were the case and the ambulance was hauling you into SLC you might want to keep your views to yourself while receiving medical attention there. Living in Utah I've always found those giving medical help to not be effected by what my views might be vs. theirs and the services they have rendered have left nothing to be desired on my part :wink:
Sumner
P.S. John thanks, but don't put any time into being P.O., I'm not :-)
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.....I just can't trust anything creationists have to say. but you are't one so I retract that statement. The track record of them flat out lying is just puts them beyond trust. They may not be in this case, but i'm not willing to put any time into anything they have to say trying to work it out.....
I might not be a creationist but I respect their right to have their views. I thought that was one of the great things about this country. The fellow who wrote that article is in my view a very credible geologist on the subject at hand. I see no difference in his interpretation of the history of Lake Bonneville than those of other geologists.
Hopefully you are never hurt on the salt but if that were the case and the ambulance was hauling you into SLC you might want to keep your views to yourself while receiving medical attention there. Living in Utah I've always found those giving medical help to not be effected by what my views might be vs. theirs and the services they have rendered have left nothing to be desired on my part :wink:
Sumner
P.S. John thanks, but don't put any time into being P.O., I'm not :-)
See, and that's why I don't like them, because it's true. They won't take very good care of people that don't fall in lock step with their view point. If they find out I'm homosexual they are likely to let me die. So you can see, I have a personal grudge against these people, and a very valid reason to have so.
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....everything erodes....
Everything that erodes is also redeposited some place else :wink:.
I've also never read anyplace about the salt depth being anywhere near that thickness but like the others have said Lake Bonneville was that deep before it overflowed into what is now the Snake and cut a huge gorge out and emptied out a lot of that depth in a very short period of time.
In Salt Lake City as I look eastward, I see on the western side of the Wasatch Mountains an ancient wave-eroded bench 800 feet higher than the city. That widespread bench was formed by erosion at 5,050 feet above sea level. It marks the old shoreline ("bathtub ring") of ancient Lake Bonneville, the largest Ice Age lake to form within the Great Basin. This old lake was comparable in volume to Lake Michigan, and occupied almost 20,000 square miles in eastern Nevada, western Utah, and southern Idaho. The surface of Lake Bonneville was about one third of the area of Utah. This massive lake attained a maximum depth of 1,000 feet and was 800 feet deep over Salt Lake City. It
http://www.icr.org/article/red-rock-pass-spillway-bonneville-flood/
Sumner
A link to a creationist website... well, I can discredit anything you have to say from here on out.
Well I'm not a 'creationist' but the info about the Bonneville Lake does match up with most the geomorphology I've read about the lake. As for the discrediting believe me my feelings won't be hurt in this instance,
Sumner
Well it pisses me off that a newbe wanabe like polymouth could discredit you after all the informative post you have contributed.
JL222
being a newbie to this sport maybe, but geology is hardly something that's new to me.
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.....I just can't trust anything creationists have to say. but you are't one so I retract that statement. The track record of them flat out lying is just puts them beyond trust. They may not be in this case, but i'm not willing to put any time into anything they have to say trying to work it out.....
I might not be a creationist but I respect their right to have their views. I thought that was one of the great things about this country. The fellow who wrote that article is in my view a very credible geologist on the subject at hand. I see no difference in his interpretation of the history of Lake Bonneville than those of other geologists.
Hopefully you are never hurt on the salt but if that were the case and the ambulance was hauling you into SLC you might want to keep your views to yourself while receiving medical attention there. Living in Utah I've always found those giving medical help to not be effected by what my views might be vs. theirs and the services they have rendered have left nothing to be desired on my part :wink:
Sumner
P.S. John thanks, but don't put any time into being P.O., I'm not :-)
See, and that's why I don't like them, because it's true. They won't take very good care of people that don't fall in lock step with their view point. If they find out I'm homosexual they are likely to let me die. So you can see, I have a personal grudge against these people, and a very valid reason to have so.
I knew your mouth wasn't as big as your :-o
JL222
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Some thoughts on the Utah salt, though I really don't know exactly how much and to where all the salt from BSF goes:
Obviously, the salt and potash are there on the surface, easily accessed, transportation avenues already built..... I expect that is what made so much removal practical from this particular area. Most of the salt and related minerals are buried too deep, under much of Utah, for (currently) cost effective recovery.
It seems to me, there are farther reaching conditions that have led to this. The amount of salt needed in the mid-West, north-East, and Canada is staggering. Without many millions of tons of salt, every winter, peoples work lives, their food and goods needs, and industry....would all be in strained. Our hobby certainly doesn't count for much against the huge endeavor (supplied from many sources) of keeping two nations in transportation and commerce through the cold season.
This need for road salt (and mag-chloride in more recent times) has grown as fast as our countries and population. Perhaps this has added to the rate of BSF depletion...I don't know. During meetings with our Canadian group (when I was still in my career) we sat in on some impressive presentations about the scope of the winter need and the damage it causes to our cars. (On a side note, this entire concept of maintaining operating wintertime economies was the indirect cause of the 5yr/50,000 mile rust-through warranty now required of all vehicle manufacturers. Complicated...aint it?)
There are a lot of reasons for this mining activity, and it affects a lot more lives than just the folks around Wendover. It does seem to me that there are always more reasons for whatever happens, than can ever been known except in hindsight. I hope the plans to preserve a racing surface can be a part of the result. That sure sounds like a potential compromise.
Thinking about Utah salt (another side story, here), my wife and I were camped on some BLM land about 50 miles south of Delta, Utah, about 2 years ago. We had a visit at our campsite by a patrol working for a nearby solar generating complex. In the course of our visit, he told us about the giant salt caverns now being created under the farmlands around Delta. He said the salt is over a thousand feet thick(?), under there. The caverns are shaped out as huge, vertical, pressure vessels and linked by pipes to a formerly closed steam-turbine electrical generating plant.
He explained that the wind generating farms in Wyoming have proven too inconsistent to work well on the electrical grid. They put up a dedicated line to bring the electricity from those Wyoming wind farms to the old coal-fired plant at Delta. They use the electricity (when the wind blows) to run the generators backwards, compress air with the turbines, and stuff it into the "salt" pressure vessels under ground. This allows other portions of the plant to use the compressed air, at steady rate, to support the local electrical grids.
He said that wind farms will turn out to be a dead end except where this method can be used, and its efficiency is not good compared to solar. It seemed to him to be a "salvage what they can" effort after building the wind farms. I really don't know if the efficiency is good or bad. Meanwhile, I was thinking about where all that salt might go, but it isn't near enough to fix our race track!
(a side-side-note to this) A few months later, I found myself in a McDonalds late at night (Tehachapi, CA), visiting with a group of recently returned Afghanistan and Iraq vets. They had just been let go from their (about 4-6 month) jobs with wind-farm energy companies. It turns out that there is Fed money to support the wages (for certain time period) for hiring these fellows... OJT training so to speak. When the companies have got their several months of free work, they lay the fellows off and get a new batch of ex-soldiers, on a new batch of taxpayer money. These guys were at loose ends, down on their luck, and wondering where to go to find a job. I was pretty stunned to see we haven't learned a d##n thing..... since I came home from Nam and got turned down by every car dealer in town, except the little Toyota dealer on the wrong side of the railroad tracks.
So many things, that get so complicated. :| BLM is on the hot seat for a lot of land issues, for a lot of really important (but maybe not so obvious) reasons. It is easy to forget that they were NOT chartered with only running a bunch of parks or recreation areas, but for trying to make land use be productive to national needs (perhaps, more in recent times, maintain some preservation of the ecology).
I apologize if some of this seems off-topic, here, but I would guess there is an awful lot more to this (BSF issue and how to manage public land use) than what we see and hear. I don't like to offer my opinions, these days, because I seem to have lived long enough to find out I don't know much.
I do know the folks working on this problem are the best we could ever want, and I hope they know how much we appreciate them.
Thank you.
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Good job, JimmyL.
:cheers:
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.....I just can't trust anything creationists have to say. but you are't one so I retract that statement. The track record of them flat out lying is just puts them beyond trust. They may not be in this case, but i'm not willing to put any time into anything they have to say trying to work it out.....
I might not be a creationist but I respect their right to have their views. I thought that was one of the great things about this country. The fellow who wrote that article is in my view a very credible geologist on the subject at hand. I see no difference in his interpretation of the history of Lake Bonneville than those of other geologists.
Hopefully you are never hurt on the salt but if that were the case and the ambulance was hauling you into SLC you might want to keep your views to yourself while receiving medical attention there. Living in Utah I've always found those giving medical help to not be effected by what my views might be vs. theirs and the services they have rendered have left nothing to be desired on my part :wink:
Sumner
P.S. John thanks, but don't put any time into being P.O., I'm not :-)
See, and that's why I don't like them, because it's true. They won't take very good care of people that don't fall in lock step with their view point. If they find out I'm homosexual they are likely to let me die. So you can see, I have a personal grudge against these people, and a very valid reason to have so.
I knew your mouth wasn't as big as your :-o
JL222
Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I dunno I get told it's tight but... you know... whatever.
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Some thoughts on the Utah salt, though I really don't know exactly how much and to where all the salt from BSF goes:
Obviously, the salt and potash are there on the surface, easily accessed, transportation avenues already built..... I expect that is what made so much removal practical from this particular area. Most of the salt and related minerals are buried too deep, under much of Utah, for (currently) cost effective recovery.
It seems to me, there are farther reaching conditions that have led to this. The amount of salt needed in the mid-West, north-East, and Canada is staggering. Without many millions of tons of salt, every winter, peoples work lives, their food and goods needs, and industry....would all be in strained. Our hobby certainly doesn't count for much against the huge endeavor (supplied from many sources) of keeping two nations in transportation and commerce through the cold season.
This need for road salt (and mag-chloride in more recent times) has grown as fast as our countries and population. Perhaps this has added to the rate of BSF depletion...I don't know. During meetings with our Canadian group (when I was still in my career) we sat in on some impressive presentations about the scope of the winter need and the damage it causes to our cars. (On a side note, this entire concept of maintaining operating wintertime economies was the indirect cause of the 5yr/50,000 mile rust-through warranty now required of all vehicle manufacturers. Complicated...aint it?)
There are a lot of reasons for this mining activity, and it affects a lot more lives than just the folks around Wendover. It does seem to me that there are always more reasons for whatever happens, than can ever been known except in hindsight. I hope the plans to preserve a racing surface can be a part of the result. That sure sounds like a potential compromise.
Thinking about Utah salt (another side story, here), my wife and I were camped on some BLM land about 50 miles south of Delta, Utah, about 2 years ago. We had a visit at our campsite by a patrol working for a nearby solar generating complex. In the course of our visit, he told us about the giant salt caverns now being created under the farmlands around Delta. He said the salt is over a thousand feet thick(?), under there. The caverns are shaped out as huge, vertical, pressure vessels and linked by pipes to a formerly closed steam-turbine electrical generating plant.
He explained that the wind generating farms in Wyoming have proven too inconsistent to work well on the electrical grid. They put up a dedicated line to bring the electricity from those Wyoming wind farms to the old coal-fired plant at Delta. They use the electricity (when the wind blows) to run the generators backwards, compress air with the turbines, and stuff it into the "salt" pressure vessels under ground. This allows other portions of the plant to use the compressed air, at steady rate, to support the local electrical grids.
He said that wind farms will turn out to be a dead end except where this method can be used, and its efficiency is not good compared to solar. It seemed to him to be a "salvage what they can" effort after building the wind farms. I really don't know if the efficiency is good or bad. Meanwhile, I was thinking about where all that salt might go, but it isn't near enough to fix our race track!
(a side-side-note to this) A few months later, I found myself in a McDonalds late at night (Tehachapi, CA), visiting with a group of recently returned Afghanistan and Iraq vets. They had just been let go from their (about 4-6 month) jobs with wind-farm energy companies. It turns out that there is Fed money to support the wages (for certain time period) for hiring these fellows... OJT training so to speak. When the companies have got their several months of free work, they lay the fellows off and get a new batch of ex-soldiers, on a new batch of taxpayer money. These guys were at loose ends, down on their luck, and wondering where to go to find a job. I was pretty stunned to see we haven't learned a d##n thing..... since I came home from Nam and got turned down by every car dealer in town, except the little Toyota dealer on the wrong side of the railroad tracks.
So many things, that get so complicated. :| BLM is on the hot seat for a lot of land issues, for a lot of really important (but maybe not so obvious) reasons. It is easy to forget that they were NOT chartered with only running a bunch of parks or recreation areas, but for trying to make land use be productive to national needs (perhaps, more in recent times, maintain some preservation of the ecology).
I apologize if some of this seems off-topic, here, but I would guess there is an awful lot more to this (BSF issue and how to manage public land use) than what we see and hear. I don't like to offer my opinions, these days, because I seem to have lived long enough to find out I don't know much.
I do know the folks working on this problem are the best we could ever want, and I hope they know how much we appreciate them.
Thank you.
goooood post.
I want to race out there... but then again, I mine. I have my own little dredging operation that I do as a hobby. Looking for the yellow metal that drives white men crazy. I would hate to see an instance where americans were prevented from mining on federal grounds. Rock hounding and mineral prospecting is pretty fun (if you're a huge nerd, and I am). Federal property is OUR property. The government keeps it for us so that we can all share in it's resources. Lets not forget that pleasure and solitude are resources that can be "mined" out of those properties. There are other places to get salt. Those cost more of course. If the mine operators are playing by the rules, well then there isn't much you can say. If they aren't playing by the rules, well, they shouldn't get a second chance, they should be shut down.
In this case though, things seem lopsided in favor of the mines. A real "money talks" situation. Big mining operators have always had that luxury really. That's not fair or right. Maybe the BLM should start seeing that there are resources of value asside from the salt there. Maybe someone in that area's management doesn't get that. If the salt flats quit seeing racing because it's mined out it'll be yet another thing other nations will point and laugh at. More ammunition in the fish barrel shoot up of america's pride.
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1,100 views and 50 votes.
The vast majority don't care if you ever make another pass on the Salt.
Message received.
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doesn't the vote happen once but a view happen each click on
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Possibly the many readers are being amused by polyheads postings rather than voting. Just my opinion. :-D
I voted .
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P Head there is not suppose to be any federal property--read your history, read the Constitution--the states were supposed to get the property within their boundary when they became states---that was decided when the War for Independence was going on; the Feds reneged on the western states.
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P Head there is not suppose to be any federal property--read your history, read the Constitution--the states were supposed to get the property with in their boundary when they became states---that was decided when the War for Independence was going on; the Feds reneged on the western states.
So your saying then there aren't federal grounds back east?
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There are only permissions in the constitution for the the Federal Government to hold very limited "needful" lands for things like forts and harbors, and of course the land reserved for Washington DC. They held all lands in the "Territories" until they became states but were understood to be obligated to divest their ownership of those lands after statehood was granted. Some of it was given away in the home stead system and a lot of land given to the rail roads and so called school sections which belong to the states, but after that the Federal Government just kind of forgot to finish the process. This has been an on going struggle between the Feds and the western states for over 100 years.
The Federal Government controls 48.1% of Wyoming, 64.9% of Utah, 84.9% of Nevada,43% of Arizona, 29% of Montana, 35.9% of Colorodo.
The control 0.3% of Connecticut, 1.1 % of Illinois, 1.7% of Indiana, 0.3% of Iowa, 0.5% of Iowa, 0.3% of New York
Does that seem a little unbalanced to you? Those eastern states can earn taxes on almost all their lands, the Western states almost none of their lands produce revenue from taxes. Our western states are so bound up in Federal ownership we are still treated as territories and are not really sovereign states in many respects.
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42346.pdf
Az inserted by Sparky
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There are only permissions in the constitution for the the Federal Government to hold very limited "needful" lands for things like forts and harbors, and of course the land reserved for Washington DC. They held all lands in the "Territories" until they became states but were understood to be obligated to divest their ownership of those lands after statehood was granted. Some of it was given away in the home stead system and a lot of land given to the rail roads and so called school sections which belong to the states, but after that the Federal Government just kind of forgot to finish the process. This has been an on going struggle between the Feds and the western states for over 100 years.
The Federal Government controls 48.1% of Wyoming, 64.9% of Utah, 84.9% of Nevada,43% of Arizona, 29% of Montana, 35.9% of Colorodo.
The control 0.3% of Connecticut, 1.1 % of Illinois, 1.7% of Indiana, 0.3% of Iowa, 0.5% of Iowa, 0.3% of New York
Does that seem a little unbalanced to you? Those eastern states can earn taxes on almost all their lands, the Western states almost none of their lands produce revenue from taxes. Our western states are so bound up in Federal ownership we are still treated as territories and are not really sovereign states in many respects.
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42346.pdf
Az inserted by Sparky
I believe 53.1 percent of Oregon although a certain wildlife refuge was in question for a while.
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LOL!!!!!!!