Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Polyhead on January 14, 2016, 08:38:44 PM
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Just a question quick question. I'm sure people have run them in the distant past, but is anyone currently running one? In otherwords, am I going to be the only one foolish enough to bring one onto the salt (or lake bed)?
Many LA parts carry over. So some general tips from LA engines probably apply. But then there are some early hemi like qualities as well... so some of those tips probably apply.
Double rollers are a good thing I'm guessing.
Big, Heavy, Ductile cast iron rockers are probably a bad thing. Unless you've got an art project on the side that requires dozens of bent push rods.
Drill the cam plate for more oil to the chain? Plug up the cam plate to reduce oil to the chain?
Total advance on the ignition advice? I keep hearing advance it till it knocks... but then dyno tuning shows that this is a fools game, as I can advance the igntion to about 60degrees, still get no knock, and loose power. Peak power appears to be at 28 degrees, strangely... I really would have thought 35 or 38 would work better on it's large open chamber heads but.... nope...Or maybe it was detonating but the miles of cast iron between me and the combustion chambers fully muffled it?
Break out those clue sticks and start swinging!
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Ben, If you haven't checked out The School of Automotive Machinist (Houston Texas) engine build entry in AMSOIL's Engine Masters Challenge you should.
547 HP and 566 torque out of a Poly head.
Don
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This is the one - granted, poked and stroked, but a starting point -
http://www.hotrod.com/features/1601-strange-v-8-make-power-with-chryslers-obscure-poly-318-small-block/?_wcsid=0B0B7254F17974E28127318D25B35F60627E83D72411B456
There is an awful lot of valve train mass in this one, and I think you'd mentioned that the previous owner had installed flat tops in it.
Right now, without knowing for sure what kind of power and rev range you're targeting, there seems to be enough A block parts to make a reasonably priced bottom end, but if you want to maximize this one, it's not likely you'll find the parts through Jegs or Summit.
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This is the one - granted, poked and stroked, but a starting point -
http://www.hotrod.com/features/1601-strange-v-8-make-power-with-chryslers-obscure-poly-318-small-block/?_wcsid=0B0B7254F17974E28127318D25B35F60627E83D72411B456
There is an awful lot of valve train mass in this one, and I think you'd mentioned that the previous owner had installed flat tops in it.
Right now, without knowing for sure what kind of power and rev range you're targeting, there seems to be enough A block parts to make a reasonably priced bottom end, but if you want to maximize this one, it's not likely you'll find the parts through Jegs or Summit.
You would be surprised. Again, many LA engine parts fit and work fine in the engine. Timing sets, fuel pumps, distributors, valve springs, valves. Water pumps can be made to work. 360 cranks can have the mains turned down. Do the math on this, with a 360 crank you get a bore to stroke ration that is but a few thousandths from 90%.
Anyway the intake problem is sorted for now, Ordered up one of the Poly SS-X manifolds.
What I'm unfamiliar with here is how to make one survive at 5500rpm for 5 miles at a time.
Really what I'm going to have to do is build another power plant, and the current block is an issue. It's the one with the 1" extension cast into the back of the block and a funky crank to go with it. So, I'm on the hunt for a 63-66 engine, and really, that's not a big task. Actually I technically own one. I dumped my '64 polara at my parents house when I moved out here to oregon. That engine was freshened up about 2 years before I moved... I know it's all in good shape. It's just getting it to oregon from Indiana. Anyway this will require a trans swap and a drive shaft. Also I have leads on several poly cores from the era i'm looking for, and I can get them CHEAP.
There is time for all of this at a later date. Right now what I have runs good, and doesn't leak fluids. It's down on power, sure, but so what? I bet it's good enough to make 100mph at altitude and for first attempts, that's a good place to start if you ask me. With lower compression it's not going to over heat, it's extremely unlikely to break, and detonation??? yeah, right. I don't think the car would detonate if I filled the tank with coleman camp fuel right now. I'm gonna try that!
Anyway, For sure, this is what I'll run in september. Polyhead with low miles, but also low compression, Edelbrock AVS 500cfm carburator, MAYBE a bumpier than stock cam, maybe not, time, money, etc. H rated tires, drum brakes in all 4 corners, and my self assembled Heathkit CD igniton system triggered by stinkin' points. Unless my little brother pulls through for me and robs all the stuff I have on my poor ol '64 I left behind. I did an electronic ignition swap on that car, 65amp 3wire alternator swap, and a few other goodies. I kind of want to run the heathkit box for a bit for sentimental reasons. One of my elmers here in portland, K7KTP-SK gave it to me as payment for going up his tower, was still in kit form. Sure, I'll have to fight with point bounce, but hey, sometimes you do a thing because it means something to you. And that's this project all over if I'm honest. I'm running this car like this because I think it's the life the car deserves. This thing has dents in places cars shouldn't have dents, it's had a rough, rough life. Good natured car though.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. I can sit around crying about the parts I wish I had, or take what I do have, and enjoy it. I grew up on a farm in Indiana. If I spent my childhood worrying about the things I didn't have there wouldn't have been any life to live. Instead, I enjoyed the hell out of what I had. That's what I still do. People point, people laugh, I don't care. Some people get worked up about the end goal but that's never been my thing. My thing has always been in the doing of a thing and not so much about the outcome. Now sure... this attitude has, litterally on one occasion, ended up upside down and backwards in the lights. You get use to it.
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You may well never have to worry about it living for 5 miles. 3 maybe.
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"All vehicles, except Streamliners, shall exceed 175 MPH in the first timed quarter mile of the "short" course before competing on the "long" course."
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Which poly engine are you talking about? I'm assuming it's the early style hemi block & not the 318 wide block.
Jeez I bet it was a Pig with 50 deg of timing on gas!
Sid.
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I have one of those Polys in my good weather daily driver a 1967 Dodge Coronet 500 it was built in Canada the only year the Poly came with hydrolic lifters. Awesome power a whoping 230 HP and 300 foot pounds of torque. 8-)
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Which poly engine are you talking about? I'm assuming it's the early style hemi block & not the 318 wide block.
Jeez I bet it was a Pig with 50 deg of timing on gas!
Sid.
Nope, 318. Common, cheap, and everyone hates them.
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You may well never have to worry about it living for 5 miles. 3 maybe.
Well there is that... DON'T SAY NEVER!
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I have one of those Polys in my good weather daily driver a 1967 Dodge Coronet 500 it was built in Canada the only year the Poly came with hydrolic lifters. Awesome power a whoping 230 HP and 300 foot pounds of torque. 8-)
I had one in my '64 dodge polara, and that was my first encounter with a polyhead. Enjoy a blury old photo!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8Da3UllXxqUiOrTTnG8DVF39QoQmX7fIRjTHG-q2aDQs4YHlnBl-4HkN7ScympZaJVGhPbYKqBM2ciReKAY1F6pbN_PRbt7kNky6lUTnzxHFRwkvCmitBFQnVwGZo7UcOx7eagFhyFaCk1hB1b0NqDVflPfg5iQ-5eGMiS01SurW0cq2WOevOi9KkXpHgwDIZ3xSjJSy32Q2M1ZJeFIQMi9RDHK8CLes2fp2VKGhzhg4CvP3Xf4OW_v8MoGOdNeYcbV9BFSmol4R5rdIRJ9lF3p7JWnx8WpXDjqu5wNs71la_pKorPFwborm8qQMWZc89bGcvy7vEKyaohJ8yZ1__J9RsYv2snTl5DGiUrsbaXnumZrag_gZT1d5BN8qwxlFSxrZNfDpXNRATqj1WkJecGvuXzh__CZ4Gb0O86HqoJxg_IW3o_-riQg0YM-LoSPlDLjUXBW685WyxQdYo_98P-riWR08d6C9xqb43bRCnhLEXN_pnuT1UTG8zAwcNHYrpZa6r5bSUUouAO4DbxQ8bEz2ZWddZ1nLN9rY-8MgHjV5sh5-B5UDazfkFsHn-hhvUOy=w1243-h698-no)
Now I have this thing with a polyhead
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/f7lAkZI9II5UEY3oMNkhkwBYNrthAPGRuM60s2boXOQ9h0fZ8aF1FpGc2qrp0ZuRO--0kS3pTaNpjqya900nCEt5LjLvHjwsrVpkyQHv3AjZ_ZnGGL0woCpAq7Ef_qkjLYwq2b8nJbth0_HADRlC67_mb0_OVGNnwbGjNSKXyCPg2TZ-9JzXUM9zCuBXR5tMVqT2TYCklELhY02STgpOREzW3XCagdk2Fa2gFmOx--1z0Kd1Z1RseS5qDMKfp76R7nFIkTNBh8lRziwXHZJ8Y0SwdxbCkHRz8K-Or1hufbZQ_A5WH6zul7tXjoDhgxBpOMErIMkIAOrYuYA70gV_PxrZ8Ac-P9U72cP-C2TSIhuiI_a6Td4B3G15L-N2qIeIJw_dnVO1ECc1D7pDQdNdigTyABKgd5ZpnAW7HlFVwbuDIeFQJ_BMNdBXfYpnigRR6zxh1DhhSRvNIvoDUzXxFt4hmbRosn07cCrehyKeBKHbtzuig8rk0niw4SJGh3aHYIPqV1DgRVS0AbdUbJYCQrKvMNlNFu38M6mVvVTtyajszBIaPBYhdkfn3_FncDg-H4tb=w1243-h698-no)
Also.. I thought it was 340lb/ft (looks it up) yep, 340lb/ft.
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Which poly engine are you talking about? I'm assuming it's the early style hemi block & not the 318 wide block.
Jeez I bet it was a Pig with 50 deg of timing on gas!
Sid.
Nope, 318. Common, cheap, and everyone hates them.
Not everybody hates them! :-) They're not the best choice for revving but they are a reliable old dog. Lose the stock pushrods if you haven't already bent them, because you will.
Build a windage tray in the pan to keep the oil down or the crank will shove it all up through the monster holes in the valley. Don't be scared to give it "an oil pump" & you will need to restrict oil to the rocker shafts. I always used to put a plug in the bottom of the feed rocker stand, that was the easy way. If you pull the rockers off the shaft, put them all back in the same place.
I budget built a bunch of those old 318 widies in NZ back in the day & shoved them in all sorts of things, they were cheap & I was a poor Mopar kid.
Sid.
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You may well never have to worry about it living for 5 miles. 3 maybe.
Well there is that... DON'T SAY NEVER!
I like polys. I have a 259 Plymouth poly in my shop. But it will take some really serious power to push that thing to 175 in the quarter. Not sure that with your current plans that is going to happen.
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Which poly engine are you talking about? I'm assuming it's the early style hemi block & not the 318 wide block.
Jeez I bet it was a Pig with 50 deg of timing on gas!
Sid.
Nope, 318. Common, cheap, and everyone hates them.
Not everybody hates them! :-) They're not the best choice for revving but they are a reliable old dog. Lose the stock pushrods if you haven't already bent them, because you will.
Build a windage tray in the pan to keep the oil down or the crank will shove it all up through the monster holes in the valley. Don't be scared to give it "an oil pump" & you will need to restrict oil to the rocker shafts. I always used to put a plug in the bottom of the feed rocker stand, that was the easy way. If you pull the rockers off the shaft, put them all back in the same place.
I budget built a bunch of those old 318 widies in NZ back in the day & shoved them in all sorts of things, they were cheap & I was a poor Mopar kid.
Sid.
Pushrods are already bent.... LOL Hell I did that screwing around in the field doing donuts. The really funny thing was that it was still running on all 8 cylinders with 4 pushrods bent. The pushrod gets leaned up against the hole i feeds through and is then supported just enough by the pushrod hole it keeps running.
On the rockers, Do you know of a rocker tip that can be made to fit in the polyhead's rockers that is a locking type and not a self locking type? I'll happily drill out the threads and install a threadcert or re-tap. I don't trust the self locking adjusters at high engine speeds. I'm a machinist for a living. Making holes, tapping holes, screaming, swearing. That's everyday crap for me.
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You may well never have to worry about it living for 5 miles. 3 maybe.
Well there is that... DON'T SAY NEVER!
I like polys. I have a 259 Plymouth poly in my shop. But it will take some really serious power to push that thing to 175 in the quarter. Not sure that with your current plans that is going to happen.
This is an incremental approach. If you think the combination is going to be the same 10 or 15 years down the road, think again. C/BFALT
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Any of the good cam companies should be able to supply you a set of cup top pushrods. Call CompCams.
Sid.
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Any of the good cam companies should be able to supply you a set of cup top pushrods. Call CompCams.
Sid.
Everything in the valve train is easy to get save for roller rockers, although they are out there. At the end of the day, with the access to machining equipment that I do have, I could make my own rockers. That's just a matter of careful machining, finishing, and measuring. Something I do every day. For that matter I'm confident I could even make my own rocker shaft stands (after machining off the stock cast in jobs) and rocker shafts. Right now there just isn't a need or a desire to do that with this engine. In other words, no need to dip into my beer money just yet!
The only thing that IS different in valve train and hard to get is the cam itself. But again, there are companies making poly grinds. An LA cam blank works as a starting point as the spacing of the lobes, cam bearing centers, oil pump/distributor drive gear location are the same. The only difference is the valve order. There are several companies grinding Poly cams, and they will provide you with anything you want. Of course there is very little in the way of dyno tested parts availabe, so, any grind you go for is an expiriment.
FYI, the pushrod set in the car right now was actually made by local engine builder friend. He had some tubes taken from another engine that could easily be cut down and proper sized tips welded in place. He's very confident that the pushrods would take 7000rpm even with the engines rather heavy valve train mass. They look sweet as hell. He made his own pushrods in the small block and big block chevies he runs, and those engines do spin at 8000rpm and have considerably more seat pressure than what I'm running. They'll certainly hold up to the 5500 to 6000rpm that I intend to push them too.
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Have fun in the 130 - 150 clubs.
After a while, you may want to change your engine and platform. The current Bonneville record in C/BFALT is 255. Might be hard to do that with your combo. Not sure it would do that dropped from 10,000 feet.
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Have fun in the 130 - 150 clubs.
After a while, you may want to change your engine and platform. The current Bonneville record in C/BFALT is 255. Might be hard to do that with your combo. Not sure it would do that dropped from 10,000 feet.
With enough ballast! Actually if I were to just pump the water jacket on that poly full of lead....is there a class for that?
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You have an interesting engine project there....some of our early engines were 318 poly engines. We never did find any real good heads for them though. The biggest difference between the LA and the A blocks though was the lack of oil porting for using hydraulic lifters. Being that I am from Canada, three of last poly engines we had were '67 blocks with hydraulic lifters. I have been told that they were the same as the 318 LA blocks. I do know that the parts physically bolt from one to the other. If you are using solid lifters anyway, why not look a bit into using a later block. You could probably even use a 360 block (and crank) - although most of them after the early '70s were iffy on boring much more than .020" oversize. It has been claimed that the blocks up to '73 vintage will take .060" oversize. I would check cylinder wall thickness first though.
For cam and valvegear, give Isky's a call and talk to Richard Iskenderian... He would steer you in the correct direction...He may even know about ftermarket rocker assemblies - shaving weight there would be a plus...Ultiimately, for as much power as possible a "one-off" cam from LSM or their competitors may be the way to go. You do need a lot of information about cylinder head flow numbers, intake, compression ratio, valve sizes etc to go that route though....
Anyway, good luck...going to be watching for updates.
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You have an interesting engine project there....some of our early engines were 318 poly engines. We never did find any real good heads for them though. The biggest difference between the LA and the A blocks though was the lack of oil porting for using hydraulic lifters. Being that I am from Canada, three of last poly engines we had were '67 blocks with hydraulic lifters. I have been told that they were the same as the 318 LA blocks. I do know that the parts physically bolt from one to the other. If you are using solid lifters anyway, why not look a bit into using a later block. You could probably even use a 360 block (and crank) - although most of them after the early '70s were iffy on boring much more than .020" oversize. It has been claimed that the blocks up to '73 vintage will take .060" oversize. I would check cylinder wall thickness first though.
For cam and valvegear, give Isky's a call and talk to Richard Iskenderian... He would steer you in the correct direction...He may even know about ftermarket rocker assemblies - shaving weight there would be a plus...Ultiimately, for as much power as possible a "one-off" cam from LSM or their competitors may be the way to go. You do need a lot of information about cylinder head flow numbers, intake, compression ratio, valve sizes etc to go that route though....
Anyway, good luck...going to be watching for updates.
Because using a 360 isn't using a polysphere. Lose the poly and the project looses it's point. Setting the record isn't the point. Playing with junk everyone else throws away, that's the point. Not using the polysphere heads would be against the point as well.
I already know where to get roller rockers, but I don't really care to spend money on them at that point. People got along just fine without them forever.
I don't need a custom one off cam, as there are off the shelf choices that'll get the job done for now. I stress for now. Maybe in 4 or 5 years time I push it out a bit farther. I spend as much on coffee in a year as a cam is going to cost... Probably even more on pipe tobacco.
If they had a class for un-areodynamic cars with overweight V8 engines I would enter it (C/CSH Classic Shit Heap), but they don't. so i'm not building the car around the class so much as building the car the way I want it and compromising it to make it fall into a slot somewhere in there to get it timed. Calling it a combination is an insult to people that have actually planned things out. This thing is a garbage scowl on wheels that (hopefully) passes tech.
I do have the attention of Chrysler Power magazine at the moment. So with any luck I can make the most of that. (till they find out I have a Mopar Action subscription)
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I thought Buddy Walker and Jeff Brock were somewhat out there. But I answered any questions they asked me and look how their cars turned out. Hope Jeff is doing well. It would be good to see a Poly running strongly on the salt. I like to see engines that are out of the norm. Long way from the 130 club to the long course. But more power to you. To bad you didn't want to run a '52 Lincoln. Then I could really get into it.
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I thought Buddy Walker and Jeff Brock were somewhat out there. But I answered any questions they asked me and look how their cars turned out. Hope Jeff is doing well. It would be good to see a Poly running strongly on the salt. I like to see engines that are out of the norm. Long way from the 130 club to the long course. But more power to you. To bad you didn't want to run a '52 Lincoln. Then I could really get into it.
Hard to get one of those cheap. Actually getting forward look era mopars cheap isn't easy now. Kind of a shame but suddenly, mopars are having a big surge in popularity. Has driven the costs through the roof. '52 lincoln is a cool car though. That said if I did something that wasn't a chrysler product It would be a stude'.
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I think the Poly was underdeveloped for high performance applications.
It comes with good sized valves and a usable combustion chamber, good potential for better breathing with a canted intake valve and a fairly direct intake port.
This could well be a tree worth barking up.
In other words, no need to dip into my beer money just yet!
As long as there's food in the fridge, you're under budget. :wink:
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I think the Poly was underdeveloped for high performance applications.
It comes with good sized valves and a usable combustion chamber, good potential for better breathing with a canted intake valve and a fairly direct intake port.
This could well be a tree worth barking up.
In other words, no need to dip into my beer money just yet!
As long as there's food in the fridge, you're under budget. :wink:
Why do you need a fridge for peanut butter and jelly?
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Why do you need a fridge for peanut butter and jelly?
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Good point.
I think I just figured out how I'm going to be able to afford my impending fuel injection . . . :-D
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Why do you need a fridge for peanut butter and jelly?
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Good point.
I think I just figured out how I'm going to be able to afford my impending fuel injection . . . :-D
My ultimate goal is to go injected as well, but, not allowed in CPRO so that'll be a move in class, far into the future of course. I REALLY want to put a classic mechanical hilbourn setup on it just because...I've played with EFI on other projects, and it's fun, but I've yet to get to play with a hilbourn mechanical setup. It's a bucket list item. I want velocity stacks out of the hood and a tank full of methanol! It looks cool and smells good and those are the only reasons.
I need to get into touch with that whole, black market human organ trade. I only need one kidney, don't need my testicles at all. I'm pretty sure I could get down the course with only one eye as well. Only need my right foot too so that's the left leg done away with. Wait, are hand controls legal? If I get both legs off getting in and out of the car would probably actually be easier!
You're comment on the heads. I think it's a good design but I think the SAM engine at the engine masters shootout really took the heads as far as they can go. They ported them to the point they leaked water and then ceramic coated them to fix the leaks! That's as far as it's gonna go there! It's a good design but a design that, unusually for chrysler, left little room for porting. I'll be competing in classes where people can go out and buy off the shelf aluminum, billet, cnc ported, wis bang heads. No stock cast iron head is going to keep up with that. The flow numbers sam got are in the range modern sorta ok aftermarket aluminium heads. But again, it leaked, so for something that I would run out on the salt would be reduced in flow as I just couldn't grind the port walls out that thin and expect it to survive.
Intake design and header design are going to be crytical, and the headers design is already looking like it's going to have to be a compromise because there just isn't much in the way of room for headers under the hood. I can't find a way to do it at all in fact without either ditching the torsion bars or cutting holes in the inner fenders. This later option then means the only tires that'll fit and that I can ensure won't end up with a tire hitting them are going to be front runners.
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You might want to go back and reread the rule book on Hilborn type fuel injection. No restriction there. I have made several Hilborn type of manifolds using other more common injectors or throttle bodies from newer EFI cars and bikes. Being a machinist you would have no difficulty doing the same. As far as all the rest of it, pumps, hoses and such I used Hilborn. Did OK for me.
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Ben, the logical way to go fast is to open up the Dart catalog or similar and start buying race ready parts. This is the least cost and quickest way to go fast. Strangely, most folks do not do that. This forum is a good example. There are people with semi home made jet engines, MG motors, Clevelands, Honda postie bikes, and all sorts of other crazy stuff and they are having lots of fun. That polysphere project fits right in with this group.
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You might want to go back and reread the rule book on Hilborn type fuel injection. No restriction there. I have made several Hilborn type of manifolds using other more common injectors or throttle bodies from newer EFI cars and bikes. Being a machinist you would have no difficulty doing the same. As far as all the rest of it, pumps, hoses and such I used Hilborn. Did OK for me.
Hmm, yeah I guess it does specifically say non oem ELECTRONIC fuel injection. Again, bucket list item. I could probably work together something based on their single throat setups fairly easily. I'm not much of a welder, that's the problem. I need to start praticing welding sheet aluminum. Just knock something out from aluminum sheet.
Crazy enough, there were some OEM electronic fuel injection systems from chrysler in 1958! They used the Bendix electrojet system. Aparently it worked extremely well, but, scared people.
http://www.allpar.com/cars/desoto/electrojector.html
So technically, if I used the B based 361 from that era, with that manifold, I could run EFI C/CPRO, in a 1958 desoto.... anyone want to loan me say, 200,000 grand so i can cut up a super rare desoto?
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You might want to work on your welding when building the cage. After the 130 club the requirements for driver containment get pretty strict. You need to really digest the rule book before spending any money.
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You might want to work on your welding when building the cage. After the 130 club the requirements for driver containment get pretty strict. You need to really digest the rule book before spending any money.
Heh... I should work on my welding BEFORE I weld the cage! I mean... I'm brave, but i'm not brave enough to trust my life to globbed up mess I call welds!
I really think I'm going to hand roll cage design and building over to someone else. If I can get someone else to do it for a couple of thousand dollars, which seems possible, then that's really a better thing to do. Really a proper tubing bender ends up costing as much as having a cage built. Not to mention mitering jigs, and 2 miles of wasted tubing because I've mitered it on the wrong end and bent the tubes the wrong way. It's just going to be cheaper to take the car down, give her up for a few weeks and let someone that isn't a total hack do the job. Besides, drinking beer and watching someone else do all the work. Hell that's a good deal at almost any cost!
I have to sort out what i'm going to do header wise first. I have a distinct feeling it's going to be less work to route the cage around the headers than to route headers around a cage. I think I would like the cage extended out to the front sub frame and rear subframe, tying the two halves of the car together. probably out to just forward of the mounting point of the upper control arm. Part of me is also saying "just front half the car stupid."
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Ben, there are a couple of us that are Inspectors that live in this area. You are welcome to ask questions any time. We are here to help and to keep you as safe as we can. As for the cage---well, there are a couple of very proficient shops locally that may be able to help. I don`t have the time or shop space to do it, but can send you to someone that can. Where in the Portland area are you located?
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Ben, there are a couple of us that are Inspectors that live in this area. You are welcome to ask questions any time. We are here to help and to keep you as safe as we can. As for the cage---well, there are a couple of very proficient shops locally that may be able to help. I don`t have the time or shop space to do it, but can send you to someone that can. Where in the Portland area are you located?
Hollywood dist. For now... Getting too expensive too stay here.
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https://goo.gl/photos/nkCs2donpamAJAX88
Some people are watching this thread but not the thread on my 1960 Phoenix build that the engine is in.
So here are a couple of shots of the intake I received on Monday. Anyone else have one of these Poly SS-X intakes? Mine seems a bit on the rough side and I'm wondering if other people are getting the same results.