Landracing Forum
Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials => Bville Motorcycle Speed Trials General Chat => Topic started by: tallguy on July 31, 2015, 01:59:23 AM
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It appears that the Castrol/Triumph Rocket, piloted by Guy Martin,
will make an attempt to go 400 mph sometime between August 27-29
this year (before the Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials are scheduled
to start). That seems like a "private" attempt, not associated with a
gathering of more than that one racing vehicle.
Which motorcycle streamliners are going to try this at the Bonneville
Motorcycle Speed Trials in 2015?
Sam? Rocky?
I'd like to witness the first "official" 400+ mph record being set by a motorcycle.
Until recently, I was thinking that this may happen at Mike Cook's Top Speed Shootout
this year. But then I read about Castrol/Triumph's plan. So I may try to be there
in late August, in case it happens then.
Good luck to everyone! That includes all land speed racers of all vehicles in all classes!
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You have probably seen this statement from Triumph.
The recent cancellation of SCTA's (Southern California Timing Association) Speed Week, due to the waterlogged condition of the Bonneville Salt Flats, is a disappointment. While these poor weather conditions have created a challenge for Triumph’s attempt to regain the motorcycle land speed record, we remain undaunted. We continue to monitor the conditions closely as our plans are to return there in late August.
Inevitably, pushing the boundaries of engineering and human endeavour is never going to be easy – and nature appears to be doing her best to provide us with further challenges right now.
The team is confident that it has the right machine, in the Triumph Rocket, and the right man, in Guy Martin, to exceed the current record which stands at 376.363mph.
We are actively evaluating all options for both testing and a record run attempt in 2015 and hope to confirm our plans very shortly.
Reading between the lines, my guess is that any attempt to beat the record at the end of August relied on giving Guy Martin some seat time at Test 'n Tune and/or Speed Week. Even if the salt conditions and weather cooperate it seems a bit unlikely the Triumph Rocket will be up to record speeds after running for only 3 or 4 days.
My tuppence worth, peering over a keyboard.
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Triumph with Guy Martin will have had the least testing of all as they clearly 'lost' any chance in "mid July". The dates released for the attempt in early July were 24 to 27 August - which seems to indicate private time ahead of BMST (29 to 3rd Sept). Could they share with a car before these late August dates? Triumph are listed on the Mike Cook 'Shootout' pre-event entrants for 17th to 21st September last time I checked.
Whilst they are watching Bonneville conditions, the PR people are reporting that options are being evaluated. Does triumph have an alternative location in mind?
Wendover watchers might just see a black streamlined motorcycle tow in during mid August for testing and then in September - who knows what course might be available on the salt flats - Triumph could face their opponents in a 'head to head' battle, which they seem to have tried to avoid.
Otherwise it could be 2016 before the fast bikes (and cars) get a chance to run.
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Which has more reward, the first mc streamliner over 400mph or the first to get a certified 400mph+ record?
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If this is a poll, I vote option #2.
Ack Attack has already been over 400(exit speed).
DW
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I would want the 'record' too.
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One thing with motorcycle streamliners is they are the most dependent upon salt condition, temperature (time of day) and wind speeds of any type of vehicle that runs down the course itself. Patience is a virtue with these while awaiting ideal or even safe conditions to actually run.
- Sam Wheeler. When has he last run down the course before the multiple year total rebuild to the new configuration? There are a LOT of changes (mechanical, new gearbox, engine, horsepower!, weight distribution, etc) within his streamliner and inevitably he has some testing to validate the modifications before chasing of the milestone itself. It is good to see they are well prepared and have gotten as much chassis dyno testing as they have thanks to sponsor involvement. The biggest challenge here -- time itself -- Sam isn't getting younger unfortunately and not having Sam in the cockpit isn't an option. (I am cheering for Sam though -- super nice guy and I think a vast majority would be happy if he hit a legit 400mph speed before retiring the streamliner to a museum)
- Triumph. Has it actually EVER made a run down the course yet without the outriggers attached? What is the fastest speed they have run so far? Did they have to make some major modifications to it to fit the new (and bigger/taller) driver into that tiny cockpit of the previous driver who it was designed for originally? There is a learning curve to piloting a motorcycle streamliner as well. Inevitably they will need to do more testing and validation before they have a legit shot for the milestone record -- much less a speed record itself. I do have to give their marketing people a big thumbs up as they do a great job of generating publicity for them everywhere on a regular basis.
- Ack. Probably just sitting there waiting patiently for legit competition to challenge their current record. If the salt / weather cooperate, they are definitely the favorites without question. Does anyone know if they have done any major upgrades (aero, chassis or engine) since they last made a record run? And when were they last on the salt itself to make an actual run?
- Bub. Are they still in the running? It has been very quiet as of late in regard to them and their plans. Sometimes silence is a good thing as nobody knows what might be coming...
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Press releases like triumphs just irritate the heck out of me. How about you go 300 mph first before you start spouting off about going 400 mph.
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Ack Attack has already been over 400(exit speed).
DW
Really? The exit speed for their last run in 2010 was quoted as 394.084 mph. When did they go faster?
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According to Rocky data showed 400 after traps before rolling off throttle. Very possible but very unofficial.
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Seems the Triumph Streamliner was built more for publicity than actual racing. Ack is the one to set the 400mph record. Unfortunately not looking good for it to happen this year for anyone at Bonneville.
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"According to Rocky data showed 400 after traps before rolling off throttle. Very possible but very unofficial."
There you go Dickie,
DW
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One thing with motorcycle streamliners is they are the most dependent upon salt condition, temperature (time of day) and wind speeds of any type of vehicle that runs down the course itself. Patience is a virtue with these while awaiting ideal or even safe conditions to actually run.
- Sam Wheeler. When has he last run down the course before the multiple year total rebuild to the new configuration? There are a LOT of changes (mechanical, new gearbox, engine, horsepower!, weight distribution, etc) within his streamliner and inevitably he has some testing to validate the modifications before chasing of the milestone itself. It is good to see they are well prepared and have gotten as much chassis dyno testing as they have thanks to sponsor involvement. The biggest challenge here -- time itself -- Sam isn't getting younger unfortunately and not having Sam in the cockpit isn't an option. (I am cheering for Sam though -- super nice guy and I think a vast majority would be happy if he hit a legit 400mph speed before retiring the streamliner to a museum)
- Triumph. Has it actually EVER made a run down the course yet without the outriggers attached? What is the fastest speed they have run so far? Did they have to make some major modifications to it to fit the new (and bigger/taller) driver into that tiny cockpit of the previous driver who it was designed for originally? There is a learning curve to piloting a motorcycle streamliner as well. Inevitably they will need to do more testing and validation before they have a legit shot for the milestone record -- much less a speed record itself. I do have to give their marketing people a big thumbs up as they do a great job of generating publicity for them everywhere on a regular basis.
- Ack. Probably just sitting there waiting patiently for legit competition to challenge their current record. If the salt / weather cooperate, they are definitely the favorites without question. Does anyone know if they have done any major upgrades (aero, chassis or engine) since they last made a record run? And when were they last on the salt itself to make an actual run?
- Bub. Are they still in the running? It has been very quiet as of late in regard to them and their plans. Sometimes silence is a good thing as nobody knows what might be coming...
No aerodynamic changes when the bike set the record in 2010 the motors were petty worn out after 170 dyno runs during the preceding 3 weeks chasing gremlins we never found until 2011. In fact when we got to Bonneville a couple days after pulling it off the dyno both engines had zero compression as we had lost all valve clearance and spent all night re-shimming the valves. This along with shifting problems on both motors did not help the effort. The abuse the motors saw on the dyno gave me great respect for the Hayabusa motor.
We have installed two new motors and solved the problems we were having both in 2010 and at the test and tune last year. The other limiting factor was the NACA air intake, while we could easily make over 30 pounds boost on the dyno we could never make more more than 25 at Bonneville even though the turbo should have been able to produce at least 40. We have designed a new air intake that is above the boundary layer. The 3D model on the website shows it http://top1ackattack.com
The other changes we have made are to fit the 30" Mickey Thompson tire to the rear. The 26" we have been using since 2006 has over thirty 300 mph runs on it and the new production 26" just won't work for us. Because Rocky is gun shy about traction control because of the 2011 accident we have designed a slip indicator graduated in 1% increments to give him some feed back. We have also added an air shifter.
Lastly we have never been able to run with the rear doors on after they caused stability problems in 2007 & 2008 even though we believe we have fixed the problem. In 2010 we pulled them off when we were having the steering problem caused by the new Mickey 26" tire and never got a chance to put them back. The doors reduce drag by 9.8%.
As to the 400 mph exit speed the exit speed measured at the FIM event is an average speed between the last Kilo light and the last mile light about 1/5 mile the speed is unofficial and really means nothing. The bike was accelerating rapidly through the mile with no wheel slip as the entry and exit speeds show and Rocky said it was still pulling hard at he final light. If we would have had an extra mile run up we would have been entering the lights at 400. Track length is everything in LSR if Bonneville doesn't pan out this year we are seriously considering an attempt in Bolivia.
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Mike, Wouldn't Australia work for you?
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"According to Rocky data showed 400 after traps before rolling off throttle. Very possible but very unofficial."
There you go Dickie,
DW
Thanks Dan. I hesitated for longer than it takes to cover a mile at 400 mph before questioning you. :-D Just wanted to check I hadn't completely missed a run.
In the other 400 mph streamliner thread I see Rocky has joined in and said "Our 394 final pass in 2010 on very good salt got us close on peak speed. We actually went over that before decel but of course that doesn't count." Good enough for me. :-)
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Veering slightly off topic, can anyone tell me the times/speeds of the individual runs for the Ack Attack record in 2010? I don't think the FIM publish that breakdown.
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Mike, Wouldn't Australia work for you?
Been there done that. Lake Gairdner is at sea level the higher the better for a turbocharged vehicle as long as you can maintain boost. Salar de Uyuni is 11,995 feet with 100 miles of amazing salt. A lot of logistics to work out the biggest challenge may be keeping all us old guys breathing at that altitude.
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Sounds like a plan good luck Mike
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The triumph effort has been doing test and development on the salt between meets. The bike is double engined which is a challenge and the Rocket 3 engines are not race motors. Add on the complexity of the forced induction and electronics and the project becomes a real hairball. They are doing the best they can.
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Bo, you've just described Ack's liner driven by Rocky Robinson to a "T" with the exception that he's using Hayabusa engines instead of Triumph triples. The difference is that instead of telling everyone how good they are Ack and Rocky have been proving it.
Pete
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Been there done that. Lake Gairdner is at sea level the higher the better for a turbocharged vehicle as long as you can maintain boost. Salar de Uyuni is 11,995 feet with 100 miles of amazing salt. A lot of logistics to work out the biggest challenge may be keeping all us old guys breathing at that altitude.
Mike - you may be right there. Had an attack of altitude sickness in Ecuador last month. Time and a big mug of coca tea is the answer :-D
Robin
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the Rocket III motors are most certainly suited for racing on the salt......
better suited for forced induction racing than most normally aspirated so called
"race engines"
additionally they have..relatively speaking...cubic dollars....
they are doing fine, with the limited salt past couple years
no one else in 2 wheeled streamliner race has been able to do anything earth shattering
either in the time that the Triumph liner has been developing...
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www.carpenterracing.com/castrol_rocket_intro.htm
Not your average Rocket III
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the Rocket III motors are most certainly suited for racing on the salt......
better suited for forced induction racing than most normally aspirated so called
"race engines"
additionally they have..relatively speaking...cubic dollars....
they are doing fine, with the limited salt past couple years
no one else in 2 wheeled streamliner race has been able to do anything earth shattering
either in the time that the Triumph liner has been developing...
Well let me think getting kind of foggy in my old age started it in January of 2003. Finished the ACK Attack good enough to run on Tuesday of Speed week 2004 about 4 in the morning. I had spent abut 32 K total building it including paying to have the trailer and carbon fiber body made, not counting Ken, Frank's and my labor as no one was paid. Got through tech Wensday night and Jimmy made his first licensing run at 175 in the afternoon Thursday. Friday he made his 225 licensing pass but the meet ended.
We Ran at Bub a couple of weeks later and made the first pass at 279 on the second pass he crashed at about 300. Jack Doland timed him at 274 sliding on his side through the last third of the mile.
After 4 weeks thrashing on the bike Ken and I patched the bike back together to run at the 2004 World Finals. Jimmy made his pass at a 330 something average with an exit speed of 336+. On his record run he broke the drive chains about 1/2 through the mile and coasted through with enough speed to set a 228 average record which still stands. Afterwards one of the old timer came by the pits and said "Boys you have used up all your luck at Bonneville"
Joe are you their new PR guy?
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Mike....in the past couple years...ie the Triumph on the scene...developing...no one
has been able to do anything earth shattering in the bike liner world....
:)
can I bring you an Amo special Starbucks...?...
I can understand your sensitivity a bit....its been a long last few years...
as far as my Triumph PR gig....ironically....I held back much of what I feel regarding
that endeavor....as to try to take a deep breath personally and not cast aspersions, as it
seems they are working hard
so I opted to throw a bone out there...BUT did try to offset anyone feeling sorry for them
their engines and dollars and such....
no one has greater admiration in my mind than you and Sam's efforts, right now that is the
Gold Standard....
ironically I had cut a phrase off my last post here, after seeing some posts about Triumphs efforts...I didnt want to seem harsh against their efforts..
Ill include it this time :):)
some find excuses...some find a way...
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Joe make it a vanilla bean.
One point I have always tried to make is you don't need to spend a huge sum of money to go after this record or other records. Your bike is a perfect example of what can be done with an old engine working alone in a garage without a big budget. We still laugh about a bar conversation a couple of our crew overheard after we set the record at world finals in 2004 seems someone had it on good authority Top Oil had spent close to half a million dollars having the bike built. I read somewhere one of the UK teams were going to need to raise $400,000+ to make the attempt after the bike was finished. Really?
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Joe make it a vanilla bean. Really?
Ack, Now ask Joe for the rest of the story... :evil:
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Shshush it ...
our version is much more electrolyte balanced because we care about those close to us, and only those close to us can get the benefits of a preservative free , organic blend
I was bummed to see Mike misinterpret my post intent with regard to "in the time the Triumph liner has been developing"...
I meant it literally "during" the time they have debute , circumstances like salt conditions and other issues have not allowed any of the 2 wheeled forces to show their capabilities
Not that non one has done much in history over any two year time span
Reminds me of the disconnect between a wife who asked the husband to peel half the potatoes and put in a pot
https://propelsteps.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/half-potatoes-e1387467454643.jpg
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I read somewhere one of the UK teams were going to need to raise $400,000+ to make the attempt after the bike was finished. Really?
I have not seen this in print before. That $400k figure suggests to me (over here in the UK) that the team are planning a private FIA governed land speed record attempt somewhere in the world and that the figure includes every necessary item - flights, transport, hotels, meals, etc .... etc .......
On his record run he broke the drive chains about 1/2 through the mile and coasted through with enough speed to set a 228 average record which still stands.
[/quote]
Just so folk know, my rulebook shows a record of 328 mph. :-)
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I read somewhere one of the UK teams were going to need to raise $400,000+ to make the attempt after the bike was finished. Really?
I have not seen this in print before. That $400k figure suggests to me (over here in the UK) that the team are planning a private FIA governed land speed record attempt somewhere in the world and that the figure includes every necessary item - flights, transport, hotels, meals, etc .... etc .......
The Daily Telegraph of 10 January 2014 stated:
Toseland will test the 52 Express for the first time at Bruntingthorpe in Leicestershire at Easter, when he is unlikely to exceed 150mph, while Macfadzean is seeking £400,000 in sponsorship to get the 52 Express crew to the salt in September.
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I never saw that article back in January '14, thanks for posting Tricky.
As you can see Mike Akatiff the bill would heve been 400,000 GBP which is over $600,000. Presume they were planning on renting Bonneville for a few weeks to get James' up to speed after trying the rough concrete of Bruntingthorpe. Not sure now where they would have spent all that sum.
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Given Guy Martin had a reasonable size accident recently I'd have as many doubts about his fitness to drive as the Salts to drive on?
To be honest do we think they've got enough power to run 400mph? 1000bhp doesn't sound sufficient to me but not an expert...
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Sam Wheeler EasyHook streamlined went 301 mph with 160 hp.....
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Sam Wheeler EasyHook streamlined went 301 mph with 160 hp.....
In 2006 he made a one way pass of 355.303 mph with around 275 hp before losing front tire. which was about a third of the hp of the other bikes.
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Bringing this old thread to the top and crossing my fingers for the Ack Attack team and all the racers down in Bolivia.