Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: bbarn on June 02, 2015, 01:11:22 PM
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Time for a new helmet. Looking around it appears that we are still using the SA2010 SNELL certified helmet that is recent Mfg dated? There isn't a new standard or an upcoming standard that I should wait a few weeks to get an SA2015 or anything like that that anyone knows of is there?
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From the Snell website it looks like the new helmets won't be available for sale until October 1, 2015.
http://www.smf.org/standards/sa/2015/SA2015releaseNotes.pdf
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The SCTA rule book is your friend here.
Section 3.A.2 Driver's Helmet:
Paraphrasing... Snell SA2005 is good until 2017. Snell SA 2010 is good until 2022.
You are always allowed to use newer/better safety gear.
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The SCTA rule book is your friend here.
Section 3.A.2 Driver's Helmet:
Paraphrasing... Snell SA2005 is good until 2017. Snell SA 2010 is good until 2022.
You are always allowed to use newer/better safety gear.
No book at work, this is exactly what I was looking for. I knew there was a thread here on it back when the SA2010 came out but couldn't find it.
Thank you!!!
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Bonneville Speed Trials motorcycle event still lists Snell M2010 or DOT FMVSS 218 as required for this years event if coming out in August.
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SCTA Bike helmet M2005 or newer.....
I tried to get Simpson to make me a new helmet but they said they could, but they would put a Snell "SA" sticker in it. That, as I am told will not meet SCTA requirements the helmet has to be a Snell "M" :-(
Rouse
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The M's just required for bikes, right, Johnnie?
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That's correct Stan. From what I understand the SA helmets include some sort of fire retardant material that the M doesn't have. There must be some other difference between M and SA too or I would think the SA would be ok for bikes. I haven't looked that hard in to it just know that SA is for cars and motorcycle streamliners and M is for bikes.
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The M's just required for bikes, right, Johnnie?
That's the way I see it. To bad Simpson wanted to do the helmet, but I was afraid it would end up being a dust collector.
Rouse
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http://www.racinghelmetguide.com/auto-helmet-ratings.html
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Some other considerations on new helmets. First, Size matters. If you can go some place where you can try on the helmet that you plan to buy. I had to return my latest SA 2010 twice before the third one fit. I ended up with an XL size. I'm not a big guy and my last one was an M size. Second, consider your driving position, especially if you use it in two different cars. Get the largest eye port possible so that you can view all of the controls without having to adjust the helmet position. Third, Ventilation. If you use a vent fan system make sure that the inlet clears the cage bars. Fourth, Excess movement of the helmet on the noggin. You want it snug but not loose or too tight to get your ears in position while putting it on. Cost shouldn't be a concern if you value your head. I'm sure that there are more things that the helmet people check, but these are some that I found.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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http://www.racinghelmetguide.com/auto-helmet-ratings.html
That is good information, Makes me wonder why a SA Snell helmet is not accepted by SCTA foe motorcycle classes, especially coming from a major manufacturer.
I was going to have the helmet made with the eye port raised slightly for better view while tucked on the bike. The helmet is otherwise a M Snell, but the change would require them to tag it with SA Snell.
To bad, I think it would be safer to see better. It would be nice to find out the rule book had a typo and the SA was omitted by accident.
Rouse
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It is not a typo, but you could submit a rule change...
Most SA helmet shells are larger than M and are not designed for aero.
It would seem that just a raised eyeport would not make a helmet SA. I suspect they are altering a different helmet if it has to be marked SA.
Let us know how your rule change goes... :cheers:
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Nice to know my 2010 is good till 2022. Thanks
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It is not a typo, but you could submit a rule change...
Most SA helmet shells are larger than M and are not designed for aero.
It would seem that just a raised eyeport would not make a helmet SA. I suspect they are altering a different helmet if it has to be marked SA.
Let us know how your rule change goes... :cheers:
Good idea Stainless, I not that quick on the draw about asking for rule changes, but there are times when changes would help the folks racing.
Not a different helmet, same one just raised port, maybe a testing thing if you make any changes. I don't manufacture helmets, so I leave it to them to make that call.
I'm sure they are following the regulation that governs the call on the Snell designation.
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I asked about getting different features included in helmets once upon a time. Specifically I asked for the raised eye port thing, keeping in mind how difficult it is to see ahead when fully tucked in on the two-wheeler. I asked one or two of the biggest well-known mfrs. and got a story that went like this:
Getting Snell Foundation certification isn't easy nor is it cheap. Snell requires so many of each style/model of helmet, as I recall, and needs helmets of each size that the mfr. wants certified. So therefore S M L XL XXL times four product lines, for instance, is 20 helmets if Snell only wants one of each. If their requirement is for additional units -- it'll cost the mfr. quite a bit to get that cert. For Bell and Arai, etc, maybe the dozens or hundreds of helmets isn't that huge a deal compared to sales they expect to get because of the cert, but for a small place --= it can be prohibitive.
If the mfr. decides he wants to try raising the eye port he'd have to not only design it to fit within his expected Snell requirements - and no doubt with Snell input -- he'd then have to send another full batch of helmets to get certified. Say he has to send in 50 - well, fine and dandy, but how many of that special design can he expect to sell? Mfr. asks sales and sales says "Well, there are a few hundred LSR folks that buy new helmets each year - so a cost of 50 to sell 200 ain't cost effective.
I'll leave it there -- as just an example of what MIGHT be keeping the helmet manufacturers from bringing out those raised eye ports.
Then there's the M vs. SA designation. I don't remember who it was that told me - other than I think (repeat think) it was someone in the inspector league at the salt - that M and SA are very similar in the cert. procedure except that one of them has a more strict requirement for penetration by a sharp or even blunt thingie -- like a spar or small rod or such. He went on to tell me that whichever was the more stringent could therefore be used in either type vehicle. No, I do not remember whom nor which way, but I did hear that story.
There -- I've roiled the pot a bit. Back to youse guys.
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Back in my drag bike days, I bought a Simpson helmet with a "drag bike cut" on the back of the helmet. They would cut the back of the helmet about half an inch higher than normal so you could tip your head farther. But you had to order it direct from Simpson, not a supplier. I don't know if they still do that. I just checked my old helmet and it has the cut it and an M2000 Snell sticker in it. Again, I don't know if they still do that but it could be worth a phone call.
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I will call them again, maybe I was talking to the wrong person, but at least she had the snap to give me a heads up that the SA rating may be a problem in tech.
If they can do the drag bike cut and still put the M sticker I'll buy one. That is what I was asking for when I was told that they would have to use the SA sticker.
I agree with the point that SSS was making about the cost/ benefit "call" for certifying a design change with Snell. I would think that if your in the business of making any product that requires certain certification that you need to get that certification as broad possible, just to give yourself some "wiggle room" on the production side.
I'd think that if a helmet would otherwise meet all the the "M" requirements, except for the drag bike cut, then maybe that should be taken into account and allowed by SCTA.
I guess that is just the way I see things, and I'll do whatever the sanctioning body requires, and have fun doing it.
Rouse
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The problem with modifying anything that has gone through any kind of certification is that nobody wants to touch it with an OK to go because whoever gives that OK then becomes the certifying entity and in the case of an accident the lawyers would be lined up to I-80 to get the case.
Just my opinion and that's not worth much.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Chaps,
Couple of good points on here... but worth clearing some stuff up.
Firstly a bike helmet and a car helmet are (amongst other things) cut differently at the back of the head.... a car helmet is not designed for the kind of head movement you'd get coming off a bike, it'd break your neck basically I think.... hence you aren't going to get a SA allowed for biking.
Secondly, as mentioned,there are lots of tests required for certification, including impacts around the visor/ forehead area, therefore a slightly varied design is not going to happen as it a) probably wouldn't pass the tests and b) development of a new helmet design is a VERY expensive exercise.
All from my memory (picked up from the wife's family business of making helmets etc) so don't quote me on the above but think I'm mostly right.
Cheers
Rick
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Keep it on point. I was not talking about a car helmet, and I'm not saying reinvent the helmet from scratch, nor breaking anyone's neck.
I was talking about a "M" helmet with a raised visor. These same helmets that are use in other Sanctioning bodies, without problem.
The fit and finish is all "M" except the visor is raised. The result of the design "mod" renders the helmet with a "SA" sticker.
Basically a Drag racing cut "M" helmets have a "SA" sticker. Ask Simpson.
Rouse
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Rouse, you don't want to be asking Simpson anything about "SA" stickers or SFI labels... there is a very dubious story there that I'm not going into in a public forum. Let's just say they are not really the guys to trust on that. But I will bow to your greater knowledge on "cut bike helmets".
Cheers
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If there is someone besides Simpson that has a drag cut helmet with a "M" sticker I'd like to take a look at what they have.
Simpson was on first choice because their shop is only a couple hours from me and I can go there to test for proper fitting.
Trust me it was not a price thing on the choice, I could easily buy two or three other "M" certified helmet for the price of this one.
Rouse
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I also do tech for SCCA, and I've already seen two Snell SA2015 helmets. I don't remember the brand name, but I know the bulk of them aren't expected to be on the market for several months now. Since the 2015's weren't supposed to be available until near the end of the year, SCCA amended their rules to allow the 2000's for the rest of this year. Perhaps SCTA/BNI should consider extending their approval for an additional year.