Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: BasementBorn on March 25, 2015, 05:21:32 PM
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I am looking for some suggestions for suppliers of head bolts or studs. The engine is a 04 Suzuki GSXR 600 and of course since it is a 600 and not a 1000 or Busa I can't seem to track anything down. I am running blown gas and possibly blown fuel and theoretically I am hoping to be in the 20-25psi range. At this point pretty much everything I can do to the motor has been done but I am worried about the head bolts being the weak link. APE Raceparts is one of my sponsors on it so we have checked through their stock and what they make to see if we could find anything that could work but no dice. They could custom make some but they can't make bolts for just one bike cost effectively and there just isn't the demand for them to produce a large batch. I haven't talked with ARP yet but I know they don't have anything specifically listed for a 600, I plan on sending them the dimensions I need and seeing if they can help. Just curious if anyone has any other suggestions. Worst case I will probably run new stock bolts and hope for the best but it's worth a shot.
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ARP studs and nuts. No need to ware the cases out by removing and reinstalling bolts ever time you pull the engine down.
Rouse
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They are next on my list to contact. Just seeing if there is anywhere else I should check.
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ARP studs.
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There may be some European companies making studs, (and don't even consider bolts for heads - Rouse is absolutely right) but ARP is the last word in fasteners - at least in the States.
Talk to APE - I used their valve springs from the KZ1000 drag kit on the Midget, they source quality parts, and they probably have sway with their suppliers. I'd bet they can be your mouthpiece with ARP to come up with a set that will work for you.
The only downside to studs on a bike is if you need to pull the head with the engine in the frame. You will have likely eliminated that option, which might make checking your engine in impound a real PITA..
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I definitely want to go studs assuming I can find them. I figured ARP would be the best bet for a place to try. May have to take a look overseas if they can't help me out.
APE has been great, they have done a ton of work on it so far. This is the only thing engine related I haven't been able to get either through or directly from them.
I don't have any problem dropping the engine out if need be. Hopefully it is in impound, sounds like a PITA I wouldn't mind having.
Thanks
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There may be some European companies making studs, (and don't even consider bolts for heads - Rouse is absolutely right) but ARP is the last word in fasteners - at least in the States.
Talk to APE - I used their valve springs from the KZ1000 drag kit on the Midget, they source quality parts, and they probably have sway with their suppliers. I'd bet they can be your mouthpiece with ARP to come up with a set that will work for you.
The only downside to studs on a bike is if you need to pull the head with the engine in the frame. You will have likely eliminated that option, which might make checking your engine in impound a real PITA..
Chris;
I don't trust ARP. Some time ago I bought some nuts for my head studs and one nut had no threads. Not aerospace quality control, that's for sure, but light years ahead of Chinese fasteners.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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There may be some European companies making studs, (and don't even consider bolts for heads - Rouse is absolutely right) but ARP is the last word in fasteners - at least in the States.
Talk to APE - I used their valve springs from the KZ1000 drag kit on the Midget, they source quality parts, and they probably have sway with their suppliers. I'd bet they can be your mouthpiece with ARP to come up with a set that will work for you.
The only downside to studs on a bike is if you need to pull the head with the engine in the frame. You will have likely eliminated that option, which might make checking your engine in impound a real PITA..
Chris;
I don't trust ARP. Some time ago I bought some nuts for my head studs and one nut had no threads. Not aerospace quality control, that's for sure, but light years ahead of Chinese fasteners.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Interesting, in that I bought a set of "ARP" studs - the quotes indicating a swindle - one of which Mark was able to snap off as we approached the recommended torque setting.
Clearly not the real deal.
I'll only go through an authorized dealer from now on.
I'm assuming you did as well, and were able to get a replacement at no cost?
Of course, that's of no help if you're looking to race on Saturday, and the nut bag arrived on Friday. :roll:
Yeah, they're supposed to have threads . . .
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BB,
ARP may have something that will work, listed in their mfg database that they "private label" for someone. You would need to purchase it from that company.
Alternatively, ARP may have something that will work with "slight" modifications.
Before checking with Euro mfg's, be aware that Euro & Japanese metric thread forms are different.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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I'll have to do some more digging around with them and see if we can turn anything up. Hopefully I can find something that will work.
I do know that APE makes head studs for the same year 750 which is very similar to the 600 in most aspects. The problem with them is the length. Do any of you see any potential problems with either shortening them, assuming there are enough threads available, or adding a spacer between the head and the nut? Just speaking in general because I assume not many have experiences with this specific engine of course.
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A hard washer might help if the studs are not too much longer and they still fit under the cam cover
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Exactly what I was thinking. I'll have to look more in to that as well.
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I'll have to do some more digging around with them and see if we can turn anything up. Hopefully I can find something that will work.
I do know that APE makes head studs for the same year 750 which is very similar to the 600 in most aspects. The problem with them is the length. Do any of you see any potential problems with either shortening them, assuming there are enough threads available, or adding a spacer between the head and the nut? Just speaking in general because I assume not many have experiences with this specific engine of course.
Less than a 2mm difference, no?
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I don't know the exact difference, I think it's pretty minimal.
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The problem with them is the length. Do any of you see any potential problems with either shortening them, assuming there are enough threads available, or adding a spacer between the head and the nut? Just speaking in general because I assume not many have experiences with this specific engine of course.
No problem with shortening, I've done it many times. Carbide cutter on the lathe, mount stud in a 5C collet for ease of mounting and no damage. I prefer to shorten the block end if possible.
Be VERY careful if grinding them shorter. Don't impact the heat treatment.
Is it possible to "deepen" the threads in the block? I've done this a few times, and I like it better as it "buries" the stress in the block "deeper". This may not be possible with thinwall motorcycle castings though.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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ARP, call, write or send smoke signals.
I have a customer about a block away from them and when I need fasteners, I visit my customer.
On a more serious note, ARP has many more fasteners than what is listed in the catalog. If you inquire with specific dimensions the sales Guys are really good and will find something close if not right on.
J
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During lunch I googled one of the on-line website merchants that sells bike parts. I got the 'zuki part number for a head bolt for a 2006 GSX600R. It is 11117-29G00. Then I typed that number into a Google and did a search. Lots of responses. One was partzilla.com Its site listed all of the other Suzi models that use the bolt. There were many, including modern ones. This is just an example. Use the net to get your hard to find parts. Once you learn how to do it, it is hard to not find what you need.
Put two nuts on a stud and tighten them together. Then remove the stud like a bolt. This is "double nutting" and studs can be removed while the engine is in the frame. This makes it easier to take off the head and cylinder block.
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I was able to find the part number and was searching for other bikes that had the same one listed as well. I figured maybe ARP had something listed for another bike that might actually fit but they just didn't know type of deal. So far the best I have been able to come up with is using slightly longer studs and cutting them down like Fordboy was saying. Seems like a pretty good option if I can't track down something that is a dead on fit.
For finding the needed stud length I am guessing I just need the total depth from the seat in the head to the bottom of the bore in the block? The back story is APE was checking to see if they have studs that will work, the head is with me and the block is at their machine shop so I just gave them the depth from the seat to the bottom of the head. I don't have the total length handy but I do have a parts motor I can get the measurement from so I can talk with ARP.
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Studs use rolled threads. Cut threads are not as strong. It is important to find studs or have them made with rolled threads.
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... Put two nuts on a stud and tighten them together. Then remove the stud like a bolt...
All ARP studs are available with a recessed hex, for an Allen wrench.
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True, you could use the double nutting or Allens wrench, but going back a few posts, the big advantage to a stud, especially in an aluminum block, is that you're not always grinding on the threads rotationally in the block every time you take the head off. All the threads in the block are engaged, the pull is straight, rather than straight AND rotational, and the friction and drawing forces are handled with the hardened steel nut.
I hate helicoils . . .
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"I hate helicoils . . . ".
There are better alternatives to "Helicoils" for but thats another subject. Thread inserts of any kind are a bit of an abomination. They should be avoided if at all possible. :-D :-D :evil:
Pete
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"I hate helicoils . . . ".
There are better alternatives to "Helicoils" for but thats another subject. Thread inserts of any kind are a bit of an abomination. They should be avoided if at all possible. :-D :-D :evil:
Pete
Pete, Would you mind elaborating on "better alternatives to Helicoils".
We do a bit of offroading and have a constant battle with threads in aluminum.
A new thread subject post may be appropriate. :roll:
Thank you, Don
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Don and anyone else who's interested, you can check out this link for some ideas and go from there. I've always preferred the Keensert type of thread restoration and have even made my own out of bolts when necessary. Google is your friend. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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Keenserts are solid threaded inserts.they have self contained pins to go into the parent material. to lock in place.
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i shouldn't, but i am going to say that i have put lots and lots of single thread inserts in lots and lots of aircraft parts. And I think they are great. What is it about Helicoils you don't like?
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Like Rich Fox, I have installed hundreds on AC and other apps as well as race cars. :cheers:
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6So as far as my original post, most desirable would be proper length head studs. I won't argue that one bit. Next would be cut threads in longer than needed studs. Obviously not ideal because the threads are cut in and not rolled in as part of the bolt which makes the stud weaker because the stud is not built to be used that way, understandable. Boring deeper a hole in the bore may be an option given there is enough material to do so. Thread replacement, whether in helicoil or some other form is clearly the last option. Still an option but something that should be used as a temporary solution if needed. Am I correct in summing this thread up to date?
For the sake of conversation, my final decision on this is to measure my dummy block and head and see if ARP has studs that will work. My next option is to use the studs APE makes for the 750 and trim them down for the 600 or see if there is room to get them further in to the block. Thanks for all the help.
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stock head bolts can keep quite a bit of pressure sealed up also....
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That's true. Pushing 25ish more PSI in to the cylinders makes me worry a bit though. I don't want the head bolts to be weak link if I can avoid it.
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The reason I prefer the solid inserts to the coiled Helicoil, Prosert type is that I do a lot of repair work and the coil type inserts seem to get screwed up more often than the solid inserts. There isn't an inherent problem with either type but if an insert's going to get screwed up it seems it will be the coil type.
Bye the way, the inserts that I keep in stock for personal use are the coil type and I don't have any problems with them. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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Gabe, Sorry for the hijack.
Pete, Thanks for the reply.
Don
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Don, absolutely no problem. Good info to have.
Thanks everyone fore the responses.
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... I hate helicoils . . .
My light alloy projects wouldn't be anywhere without HeliCoils- lots and lots of 'em, along with many many rolled-thread fasteners.
BasemenBorn- ARP folks say they will make any custom fastener; but I don't know how pricey that would be.
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I have used Heli-coils for years in plastic and aluminum. But since learning about Time Serts I prefer them.
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My light alloy projects wouldn't be anywhere without HeliCoils- lots and lots of 'em, along with many many rolled-thread fasteners.
BasemenBorn- ARP folks say they will make any custom fastener; but I don't know how pricey that would be.
Very pricey. They make a lot of custom stuff for F1 and Nascar, and have learned how to charge for one offs . . . . . . .
Financially, you are way better off adapting something from their normal stock, to work for your application.
But hey, if you can afford to have them fab up something special, by all means do so.
My point is this: Both ways work.
My advice is: Don't get "hung up" on your project, looking for the "perfect" solution, if it doesn't already exist. Adequate and/or acceptable are not "bad words", and they get the job done.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Saved several flathead blocks a long time ago with heli coils.
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I'll have to do some more digging around with them and see if we can turn anything up. Hopefully I can find something that will work.
I do know that APE makes head studs for the same year 750 which is very similar to the 600 in most aspects. The problem with them is the length. Do any of you see any potential problems with either shortening them, assuming there are enough threads available, or adding a spacer between the head and the nut? Just speaking in general because I assume not many have experiences with this specific engine of course.
Coming in late here , but we use busa studs in our 750, earlier generation than your 600, but they need 15mm spacers to work and a couple of studs need about 3 threads cut off for bearing and cam pin clearance , and they work fine , more than fine
sounds like you can just use the 750 or 1000 studs with minimal changes for a reliable system
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It sounds like the way to go to me. Either studs made for the application or some that I have to adapt a little are going to be much better than the stock bolts and ease my mind a lot.
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Basement, a set of new standard studs and bolts might be your best option. The cross-reference list shows them used for bikes much more powerful than the 600 with approximately the same number of bolts holding the head down. Aluminum expands when heated more then steel. The studs are designed to have the proper amount of give so they provide clamping forces within the desired range. Use of overly stiff studs can result in too much clamping force when the engine is hot and this can over compress the gaskets and/or cause permanent distortion of the cylinder head. Cylinder head studs and bolts are engineered features. A lot of calculation goes into choosing the right dimensions and materials.
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So, just a little update. I got my block back from APE yesterday, took all the measurements of the block and head and called ARP this morning. Turns out they make a set for a 2.0L Toyota that should work. about 160 from Summit. Glad you all told me to call.
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When we looked at ARP for studs for the Buick straight 8 they said that they didn't have a set listed and we gave the measurements to them they had everything on the shelf and asked if we wanted them to list them as a set. We said it would be doubtful that they would sell many sets and not to bother. Turns out that we have bought several more sets and they may well be listed now.
Doug
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So, just a little update. I got my block back from APE yesterday, took all the measurements of the block and head and called ARP this morning. Turns out they make a set for a 2.0L Toyota that should work. about 160 from Summit. Glad you all told me to call.
I love it when the wheel doesn't need to be re-invented!!
:cheers:
Fordboy