Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: No13 on March 08, 2015, 10:27:56 PM
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Hi, I introduced myself and will start a little post here about what I'm doing.
Let's just say I fell in love with the Belly Tank style of lakester a while back. Now in a position to do something about it, my story.
Here's a few pics of it as it stands now... and it's not really a belly tank in any way.
Thanks for looking.
Kelly Wood
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It doesn't appear to be built to fit any class at this point. Am I missing something?
Pete
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Nope, you're not missing anything. I'll get it figured out after I visit my buddy Mike Nish and go over a few things. For now, it's just fun to build!
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Where are you? Wayno
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Salt Lake City.
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We'll look forward to a build diary on the site. In the meantime, good luck. With friends like that you should end up heading in the right direction rapidly.
Pete
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Thanks! Mike Nish's kids race karts with my daughter and that's how we met many years back. Here's a pic I took when we were at their shop last year. He was mocking up the new front end of that scary purple beast to keep the nose down. :)
Oh yes, someone asked me if my thing is a trike. It's not. There is a front end. Just haven't gotten to it yet.
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Hi, just a little back story of this ride of mine.
When I started looking around for an actual belly tank, it seemed that while some were available to be had, they were either so far away or they wanted just too much money for them.
So I went looking and found something that I figured would work. Ultimately, my only goal is to build it, drive it, and take a cool picture on the Salt Flats. I may attempt actually running it but I don't know enough yet that's for sure.
When I found something I thought would work, I bought it and brought it home. The tube itself was known as a paravane. Basically, it's a minesweeper. It's 14 feet long, 28 IN diameter and 1/8 in steel. I figured the tube would make a nice unibody design with minimal inner framework. After playing around with it, it'll work just fine for a unique ride... although the construction may bite me if I ever try to compete with it, but that's ok.
A bit about me, my dad was a greaser and taught me all about hot rodding early in life and I've done other projects in the same manner. Use what ya got and make it work... then throw in a little artistic talent to make it look the part. And if it has a few sharp edges, that's just fine too.
The running gear on this consists of early 40's ford front axle and rear banjo. The rear axle seen on it right now is some plymouth axle I found for 50 bucks so it's just sitting there for now. Both the front & rear will have a transverse leaf spring suspension.
The engine, well... assuming I can talk a friend out of it... a nifty aluminum block 215 out of an early 60's JetFire should do the trick.
Then, do it for under 2000... in my driveway. Yep. (pretty ambitious huh?)
Next step, get the rear end from its current weed field/resting place... and get the front axle on it... then find some rims & crappy tires for now.
So far, I'm only into this about 500 bucks.
Anyway, thanks for looking. I'll update as I go. Comments welcome.
Here's a pic of that nifty engine.
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If he hasn't sold them (hasn't said so) and you don't talk your friend out of the 215 Buick, Chris (Milwaukee Midget) has a couple for sale here: http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,14796.0.html
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Building the chassis will limit every thing you do. You will have to build the entire cage around you wilh complete fire suit and helmet. You didn't say what size you are. That is
important as when fully suited up you will have to be able to reach everything and keep all your body parts inside. You will also have to do a bail out test with all gear on. Think about
using PVC tubing (same size) to mock up to start with. as frame material. It will save you $$$ and time. Ask any questions and some one will help you along. Good luck and start a build diary so we can follow. Good luck.
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Never thought about using a paravane but that is a really cool shape and if it was a mine sweeper then it has the best money could buy for a great aero shape. Being made from 1/8th plate also makes it some what of a challenge to build and get it past the tech people. Kent Fuller has a streamliner that is built from 10 ga plate (.134 inch thick) and it is a "stressed skin" structure and I think that he has gotten it through SCTA inspection. You won't have to worry about ballast!
Rex
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Never thought about using a paravane but that is a really cool shape and if it was a mine sweeper then it has the best money could buy for a great aero shape. Being made from 1/8th plate also makes it some what of a challenge to build and get it past the tech people. Kent Fuller has a streamliner that is built from 10 ga plate (.134 inch thick) and it is a "stressed skin" structure and I think that he has gotten it through SCTA inspection. You won't have to worry about ballast!
Rex
Rex- why would the material or thickness of the tank/body cause trouble with inspectors? Challenge to build (aren't they all? LOL) and putting a cage in etc but I don't understand your concern.
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I think we're mixing apples and oranges here and getting a banana split. The Fuller liner is basically monocoque with no multi-tube chassis to to speak of. Rex is assuming the OP would build his car the same way and Jack is assuming it'd be built with a multi-tube chassis like we're all used to seeing. I guess I haven't seen where the OP has indicated that he'd do either but I'd assume it would have a multi-tube chassis and not be monocoque. That's how I'd suggest doing it at least.
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I don't think it matters. I get the impression he's not building a race car. :wink: Wayno
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I think we're mixing apples and oranges here and getting a banana split. The Fuller liner is basically monocoque with no multi-tube chassis to to speak of. Rex is assuming the OP would build his car the same way and Jack is assuming it'd be built with a multi-tube chassis like we're all used to seeing. I guess I haven't seen where the OP has indicated that he'd do either but I'd assume it would have a multi-tube chassis and not be monocoque. That's how I'd suggest doing it at least.
I figured the tube would make a nice unibody design with minimal inner framework.
8-)
:cheers:
Mike
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Me, too, Wayno.
Maybe 130 Club would do(?).
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Building the chassis will limit every thing you do. You will have to build the entire cage around you wilh complete fire suit and helmet. You didn't say what size you are. That is
important as when fully suited up you will have to be able to reach everything and keep all your body parts inside. You will also have to do a bail out test with all gear on. Think about
using PVC tubing (same size) to mock up to start with. as frame material. It will save you $$$ and time. Ask any questions and some one will help you along. Good luck and start a build diary so we can follow. Good luck.
Thanks for the info, much appreciated. I'm 6'1" and here's where I sit in it. THe hole is preliminary and probably will be bigger, I just cut it because that's about where I'll be... and well, to get inside! My legs are stretched straight out in this picture, so sitting with bent knees will be possible and there's plenty of room inside for the front axle, etc.
And for those watching, the rear axle is actually going back about 1 foot.
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Thanks all for the good info! Keep it coming, I'm completely mechanical and can do anything really but this is a new world for me so I'll take any information anyone wants to offer.
I am going for monocoque though. Actual competition... maybe. We'll see how it goes. I just wanted to see if I could do it in true old school fashion and have a good time... and make it look somewhat cool... all with nothing but a carport, welding capabilities... and an idea.
Mike Nish tells me the speed groups out there are among the best people in the world, and I'm finding that to be true.
Oh yes, my ride has a name. Salvage I. Anyone remember where that's from? Let's just say it had an impact on me at a young age, and showed me you could accomplish great things with very little... including junk. :)
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I have a question.
In all the rides I see, how come some of them have suspension and some don't?
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Builders choice. If you want some ideas and want to see a lakester that was built in 5 days go to Amazon and look for Monster Garage Belly Tank Lakester. :-D
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Thanks for all that, all that have responded.
I'll return after retrieving the rear end, a few ford wheels & tires (um, 4.. right?), and some other items.
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...Oh yes, my ride has a name. Salvage I. Anyone remember where that's from? Let's just say it had an impact on me at a young age, and showed me you could accomplish great things with very little... including junk. :)
...without Googling...Was it that silly show in which Andy Griffith built a moon rocket from scrap? I watched that as a kid, back around 1980. I thought it was awesome back then. Ugh. Fuel tank from a cement truck container? Guys banging on scrap metal with hammers to hide the sound of rockets powerful enough to reach escape velocity? I loved it as a kid.
BTW- That guy "Elmo Rodge" makes fiberglass copies of a P-38 tank, with available 20 inch stretch and headrest fairing. He built one for himself and it looks way cool. Plexiglass nose. It's groovy.
edit: Ah. I see that you know that.
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...without Googling...Was it that silly show in which Andy Griffith built a moon rocket from scrap? I watched that as a kid, back around 1980. I thought it was awesome back then. Ugh. Fuel tank from a cement truck container? Guys banging on scrap metal with hammers to hide the sound of rockets powerful enough to reach escape velocity? I loved it as a kid.
Bonus points for you! That was the show, sadly. LOL
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Continuing on: Set to pick up the rear banjo tomorrow or Thursday. Then for a weekend of throwing together the front end, cut out preliminary notches, line up the radius rods, tack weld heim joints to the rods, etc. For those watching, the side pads on the tube are 1/4 in steel. They used to be one of the mounts for a handle for this beast.
I cut off the excess and we'll use it as a mount for a 1/4 in steel plate... for the radius rods to mount on... etc.
In the meantime, an honest to golly stencil, cut out by hand and rattle canned on whilst having a beer after work.
Now she has a name.
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Radius rod mount idea. crappy photoshopping included. Use what ya got... and it's got a place to mount stuff.
AND: Correction, I measured the thickness of the steel tube again, something didn't look right. It's 3/16", not 1/8. Thicker, better. Yep, this'll work.
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A couple of questions for anyone that can help if I may.
The front axle I have for this is ford, I know that. As is the rear end.
Questions.
1. Not that it really matters, can anyone tell me what year these came from?
2. What is the part called I've pointed red arrows at in the last pic? I'm missing one.
Why's this forum so fricken picky about posts & pictures?
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Try the HAMB. They're a lot chatterer. May not know, but someone will answer.
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I did. Not even a "hello" from the bunch. I'm kind of losing faith in people.
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1. The photo looks recent -- I'd guess 2015
2. I'd guess that it would be called a steel plate.
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funny.
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Looks like a spindle and it appears to be well and truly bent.
Pete
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Spring perch. See: http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/fileattachments/37-39%20front%20axle.jpg (http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/fileattachments/37-39%20front%20axle.jpg)
Mike
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Spring perch. See: http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/fileattachments/37-39%20front%20axle.jpg (http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/fileattachments/37-39%20front%20axle.jpg)
Mike
Thank you.
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Ok, this one's for you... STAN. (a.k.a. Captain Obvious)
What's this thingy called? (oh, I can't wait to hear this one)
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Spring perch. See: http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/fileattachments/37-39%20front%20axle.jpg (http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/fileattachments/37-39%20front%20axle.jpg)
Mike
I think I'll defer to Mike. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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It's all good, roll on.
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I'd call it an ancient Ball Joint Retainer (but I'm pretty sure it's actually called something else). Not the safest set-up. Probably at least need a safety wire.
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As to why the Forum is funky about photos - name of the image, size of the image, quantity of the image:
It's not the Forum 's software other than it doesn't like YOU, No13. it's something personal by the machine. :evil: :evil:
Okay, not really. Don't cry :cry: Seriously, the software is a generic bit of freeware and was set up by the SMF people, not me or Jon Amo or Bob Clancy. They decided how to fashion it. I suppose some actual answers to your questions are - by limiting the quantity and size of files they manage to keep post file size under some control - to help keep the loading speed under control. As for making you name each file something that the forum software hasn't seen before (such as "img0035.jpg") - It's to make things a little less cornfusing for said software.
There are sorta easy ways to work around the Forum's restrictions. Whatcha do is use one of the photo-sharing sites -- Photobucket or Flickr and so on. Basic service from them is free and with 'em you're able to put up dozens of photos per post, comment more easily on the photos, and much more. I've got a nice, long, (supposedly) easy to read and use set of instructions for Photobucket. That's what I use for this site. I've got the big file subscription -- yearly fee is $25 and I'm all of half full of my allotment. . .and I've got one heck of a lot of pictures stored there. Some folks say that an inherent risk in using one of those sites is that all of your stuff will disappear in a cloud of smoke if that site should disappear -- but if you're worried about that happening - save copies of the photos and stuff on your own hard drive/remote hard drive. Whether that'll last longer than Photobucket is another question, but don't worry too much.
I expect others will chime in with comments, but in the meantime - sorry that the way it works isn't super-easy. Deal with it! :cheers:
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Thank you for the input. Wasn't trying to bitch about it, it's just not what I'm used to I guess... Thanks again.... :cheers:
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Ads call them tie rod set screws .
http://farmallparts.com/products/photos/25653a_234339.jpg
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Thanks again!
I have no issues with this place.
Those things have a hole for a cotter pin that goes in the slot when screwed all the way in.
One step at a time.
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Took a little side trip today, 1st up, the off road store. Why? Joints for the front radius rods. Check. They liked my project and gave me some stickers & a 10% discount for displaying them. Then to the junkyard where I've shopped off & on for over 30 years.
And found one, old ford wheel. Check. 1 down, 3 to go.
Thanks for watching.
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Burning curiosity... what's that 3/16" thick TANK weigh?
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Honestly, I do not know. A friend of mine with some whiz-bang coding skills ran some numbers for me prior to knowing the thickness or making one cut.
It looked like this:
<<<BEGIN>>>
assuming a 1/4" wall thickness (5mm)
weight of roughly 346 kg (760 lbs)
because of the tapering tail and front cone it's less than that ~280kg maybe (~620 lbs)
Or, if it's 1/8" (3mm wall)
208 kg tube
adjusting for cone and taper.... ~166 kg (365 lbs)
<<<END>>>
But I didn't check those numbers myself.
Since it's in the middle of these equations basically, assuming it's near correct, and take out the hatch and engine cover, I'll guess in the mid 400 range. We'll lighten it up with other access holes, cuts, etc. and I can pick up either end if I try, so I think we'll be fine.
I'll figure it out.
More later after a meeting today with the Mr. Nish. Heading down to his shop to go over a few things & chat about all this... and steal his rule book!
Kelly
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One thing about having a tank that is made from 1/8 steel is if you need to make any body parts that you may want to make from aluminum you have a great buck that you can form them on! I would think that you would probably not want to have an engine cover made from 1/8 steel.
Rex
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Totally! But the tank is 3/16. And the engine cover will not be steel. No sir.
Update: junkyard searching score!
Not every day you go hunting for just the right wheels... and find the other 3. Two complete with their whitewalls.
Full matching set of rims, check. 4 tires, check. Mount the front end next. Yep.
Real glad i went to that last place... cause in the back, this guy was saving them for just the right person to come along. Guess it was me.
Speed gods are smiling on me I swear.
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update to the update:
Small trip to the Nish headquarters today where Big Daddy Nish himself (Terry Nish) was looking at my idea, etc. The place really is a neat shop, almost museum-like in a way with history going so far back it's just inspiring.
And yes, I returned with a little something extra... a rule book to start with.
A good day.
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Update:
Pick up banjo, check. Clean up, check. Check for serviceability, check. Kill the tube but keep a part of it, check.
Mount tires, put aside. Now for that conversion kit.
Also scored yet another 16" rim with the clippy things on them. LOL If anyone needs one, let me know. I have a jeep 16" and this one shown I'll gladly send down the road.
Oil/goo that came out of it was clean, all functional... except for the brakes, but that's another day.
Thanks for watching.
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Ton of work, but front end... well... It's just sitting in it's intended place and temporarily bolted to the sides until I make the mounts. Not bad for "eye-balling" it eh? Now for some tire changing, then test fit the actual rear end... that goes back a foot from what's seen here, for a wheelbase of 135 inches.
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At some point, you said "monocoque". Did you mean "stressed skin"? i.e., that the heavy-wall skin will obviate a separate chassis?
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I stand corrected, per most dictionaries- no difference between 'monocoque' and 'stressed skin'. But in practice, most of the cars labelled 'monocoque construction' have had a central 'monocoque frame structure' to which everything else was attached- outriggers for suspension mounts, etc.
No13- I was trying to ask whether the 'tank' will serve as the chassis.
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See? I'm an idiot LOL!
The tank is basically the chassis but there will be some "attachments" inside and outside to facilitate a few things.
Update: A trip to a local shop that it would seem every-single-person I talked to told me about, McNees. Needed a spring perch.
Also, some lunchtime sketching (then some computer work) while a long winded client burned 30 minutes resulted in a nifty logo for a t-shirt for me.
Yep. I'm a goon.
Goofy question for anyone willing to measure... what's the shortest Chevy V8 one might get your hands on that would go with a powerglide? (length limited in space... powerglide is just under 26 in.) Measurement needed from the front to the rear where it mounts to the trans. I'm guessing that's from like 1/2 in in front of the balancer to the back. Limited in space here lengthwise. Fans, water pump, etc will most likely be electric.
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You have kind of "trapped" yourself into having a short engine/drive line combination. Your shell is pretty long and you can easily move the rear end back a foot or two to make some room. You may have to make a cover for the diff but that is pretty common on "tanks".
BTW where did you find the "paravane"??
Rex
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Thanks. Yea, well, trapped... kind of. I can push the rear end way back if I want and accomplish it, no issue there. I can also gain some in the cockpit too. It's just that I don't want to go too far back, kind of ruins the look... but I will do it. Call it an artistic thing.
The paravane... Not wanting to track down a belly tank... and being like 50 years too late, (I obviously had other ideas) or pay some crazy price for one... or, oh... ship one here... a coffee fueled adventure lands me in a gigantic surplus place here in Utard called Smith & Edwards (visible from space I'm sure)... where in the back, I find a pile of these things. (the one on top ended up being mine)
The local scavenger guys love me... except for the day I cut the 1/4 in thick fin off and put a free sign on it in my driveway. Took 3 of them to pick it up. The marks of death are still in my driveway.
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I have been to that yard, worth the trip...
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Moving on. Dinner, then a beer and head outside. A few more parts added. Had to fix up one thread on one shackle then make sure they fit. (not the one I'm holding...)
Next up, find a junk block & transmission to sit in the tube, cut the hatch in the top, set them in there for weight... then throw some 50lbs of go kart weights in it... then do up the front end to sit somewhere about where it sits now... more cutting! Fun.
Yep.
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13,
"Shorty" Powerglides are widely available if you need more room in your engine compartment. :o)
Larry in Scottsdale
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Thanks for the advice! I'm exploring it but after I get the rear end notched out and the real rear end in... we just might make it. Rear end is going back about 1-2 feet easily. The banjo rear end is ready, just need a nice weekend.
Plus, the advice I'm getting in other various forms tells me to solid-mount the rear end. That will make it work for sure.
My name is Kelly Wood by the way.
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Out with the old, in with the older. Banjo rear end sitting in place, 1.5 feet back... the look is still good. Looks better to me.
More soon.
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What are you using to cut the tank? Sabre saw?
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a 4" cutoff wheel... then save the spare stuff for the patch work.
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Update: preliminary holes cut for the front spring, spring threaded through the tube, temporarily bolted in place.
Now for the weight of a motor & transmission, cut the hatch, set it in there... then build the inner mount for the spring. Yep
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This looks well thought-out.
Although I might see an Ackerman problem with the reversed spindles. But that might be corrected with hitting a bump and the nosepiece bending the tie-rod to correction (or not).
I'd surely double up on my insurance, just in case.
Stan Back
('way back.)
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I'll work it out. It's just fun.... not like it has to steer sharp anyway. Long way to go. They're just preliminary holes anyway.
btw, it is not thought out at all. I wing it most of the time.
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Tie rod in front of axle isn't called suicide front end for nothing.
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The Chevy 4.3 Truck V-6 a 350 with two cyl. dropped out has all sorts of speed equipment available cheap at the wrecking yard also!!!
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True, thanks! But I've got the rear end back enough now... it'll be a V8. Why not, let's kill ourselves!
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Question: Somewhere I read that sprung axles are required to have shocks. Correct?
If so, what ideas would anyone here have for this?
Brainstorming here.
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Yes to the first part of your question
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they can be old fashion friction shocks they would look cool
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... might see an Ackerman problem...
For the limited steering range needed for LSR, I suspect that any amount of Ackerman would work- positive, zero, or negative. [Other than tire scrub while moving around, into/out-of hauler, etc.]
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... might see an Ackerman problem...
For the limited steering range needed for LSR, I suspect that any amount of Ackerman would work- positive, zero, or negative. [Other than tire scrub while moving around, into/out-of hauler, etc.]
My thoughts too. I think we'll be fine. Gimme a bit, we'll get this going.
Next steps, for those that want to know.
1. Cut the hatch for the engine & trans, set aside to use as mold for the fiberglass engine hatch. Then use the cut out hatch & other cutouts to patch back up the rear end hole... more on that later. Gotta keep the structural integrity of the tube... The rear patch panels could be integrated into the rear axle mounts as well, we'll see what happens. I dunno yet.
2. Put junker engine & trans inside for weight (my buddy owns a transmission shop... has some spares I can use)
3. Drop 50 or so extra lbs into the front it for weight.... and myself.
4. Build mock up of the inner mount for the front spring in the nose. Basically, it's a half circle of 1/4 in steel inside the nose with a flat section for the spring mount.
5. Add spacers until it just barely lifts the tube off the front axle... (sitting/resting in the preliminary notches)
6. Mark the places things rub or movement is needed.
7. Pull it all off, grind out the needed areas for movement.
8. Build the real mount, or just wing it with the mock-up.
9. Create decent looking inserts/patch covers for the ugly holes out of aluminum, rivet it into place.
10. Put it all back together.
11. Hit it with a hammer a few times... LOL.. Makes it look used.
12. Smile.
13. Crack a beer.
14. On beer 2, think about steering...
In my driveway,
Kelly Wood
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Bingengineering the shortest route to success!! :-D
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LOL! Good one. Bingengineering. Never heard that one before.
Seriously, I put the tools down when the beer comes out.
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Question for anyone that knows. (it's build related)
The wheels I have are the skinny 16" ford wheels. They're the 5x5 pattern.
My question is: What did these wheels come on (don't say ford... but someone will...) and does anyone know what the hubcaps (perhaps baby moons) came on them? The nubs are on the inside, not the outside.
I'm sure I'll get some other wheels to run the dishes in the end, but for these, I'm hoping to find baby moons.
Thanks in advance.
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I believe 5 on 5 1/2 x 16 would probably have been Ford truck.
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Actually they're 5 on 5.5" and the ones you have appear to be '40-'48 passenger and -'52 pickup.
Mike
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Am I the only one who sees this all as a joke?
Does anyone reading this think that this is a serious attempt to use this junk as a race car?
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Great spirit there.
I'm doing exactly what they did back in the day... with what I have... and you have an issue with it?
I only asked a question.
Go be rude to someone else ok?
And don't call my creation junk.
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Do you really expect to compete with those pieces? The cars from "back in the day" can't compete today. This isn't back in the day. It's over on the HAMB. Do you have a Rule Book?
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It's pretty clear you haven't read this thread.
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Time to take a breath guys.... :cheers:
I suspect Stan is referring to is the lack of adequate roll structure. I have been reading and I don't remember how you plan to address that. CRS or CRAFT... maybe... I would reread the thread but I really don't have time. I think the tank will be a unique challenge to get through tech due to the "we've never seen this done before" and that puts the requirement on you to prove that your vehicle is safe.
Even USFRA Club racing will require a roll structure for an open car.
Continue having fun :cheers:
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Thanks. I'll assume you're referring to the cage. Yes, I have plans for one. I've got a guy here that builds them and has built them for this venue. He said he'd help me out when I get to that point.
For now, this is just two axles sitting under a tube... and an Idea.
Long way to go. I know that.
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Keep at 13.
It will start to come to you step by step. :cheers:
Mike.
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Am I the only one who sees this all as a joke?
Does anyone reading this think that this is a serious attempt to use this junk as a race car?
See reply #13 and immediately prior comments.
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Good luck to you all.
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Kelly, I hope your guy is named McNees or Burkdoll... :cheers:
Tim or BJ could probably build you a roll structure that will pass tech.
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I haven't asked Tim yet. But I have many options.
We'll get there. For now, it's just a tube... sitting on two axles... with a dreamer looking at where he is for under 700 bucks.. in a driveway, no shop, no garage, no snazzy crap.
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Am I the only one who sees this all as a joke?
Does anyone reading this think that this is a serious attempt to use this junk as a race car?
My question would to you would be if you think this is all a joke and a waste of time, why have you been following along and responding? Let the guy dream and have his fun. So long as SSS doesnt have a problem with his posts, who cares. For some of us, all LSR will be is a dream. If some of us are lucky, we can link up with a team and lend a hand. Just my .02
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... and for some of us this is more serious. If you want to run don't build and ask forgiveness, build it like it has to be. Your fun can come later.
DW
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... and for some of us this is more serious. If you want to run don't build and ask forgiveness, build it like it has to be. Your fun can come later.
DW
Dan, I understand the seriousness taken in building one of these cars as I was around Sparky as he was nearing completion of his newest lakester. Im not disputing that at all. But if there are members here that think that this guy is joke, dont follow along with this build or answer questions. Like anything else, if someone isnt getting the attention they are wanting, theyll go away eventually.
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I'll add that, I too understand how serious it is. It's speed, and speed = danger. Sure, building it right is what I had in mind but I suspect that my style of doing it... and this very early stage... has caused a few to think perhaps I'm just a dumb hick. Perhaps even I wear one of those awful straight brimmed hats and drink monster energy drinks too?
OOHH! Even better, maybe my pants only come up to my knees and I've never heard of a belt.
Geez. No thanks. I'm a business man, successful. I'm a programmer, very capable mechanic and artist. I'm extremely creative as well and I love the old school look.
I've also been to war and been shot at. To other vets here, my hats off to you my friends.
Adding to that, there was a racer in every generation of my family... none famous, but they were there, all the way back to the 40's. My dad was a drag racer locally and we currently race professional go karts.
As a kid, my dad introduced me to Big Daddy Don Garlits... and I've even sat in the seat of The Green Mamba Jet car. (too bad someone stole it... that was sad)
I know what speed is.
I know how critical mechanics are.
I get it.
But, don't judge the book by its cover. It's just a tube on 2 axles with a rusty sort of look to it right now. And that's part of the plan, make it look old. But trust me, underneath she'll be all business and conform to the rules and be as safe as I can make it.
Just because I don't have a garage doesn't mean squat.
I'm Kelly. And I have nothing but respect for all that do this, and all that came before me.
If some want to throw stones... be my guest.
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What do you have against Monster energy drinks? :dhorse:
Tough crowd..... relax or you'll burst something
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They're gross... and cliche :-D
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You can say that because you will have all that steel around you :-D
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Ok, so, update:
More inside work and axle placement has a good wheelbase and stance, but there is a problem. A V8 simply is not going to fit in it. I'm going to go the safer route and go for the V6. That will free up a bit of room here because it's limited.
Did some front end work, new bearings, races were actually good. Whoever owned it prior didn't drive it much. Designed the rear axle mounts & carriers, and the lower access plate for easy removal of the rear end if necessary. Also did some raising & lowering of the whole thing to check for clearance on the front end movement, linkage, etc. More cutting soon.
No pics, I'm lame.
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Those GM 4.3L V6 are pretty solid motors. Might look in to a Ford 2.3L too. There are a ton of performance parts for them because people run them in stock cars. That's what our F/CPRO Mustang II has in it.
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Well, Hmmm . . .
I just measured one of my 215s. It's about an inch and a half shorter than a SBC.
If you ditch the water pump, locate a salvage 12V bilge pump (in keeping with the original use of the tank) and lose the crank pulley, you'll knock about 6 inches off of it.
That's about 22 inches long.
The Chevy V6 is about 25 inches long.
If that will work, and if you are serious about this (there are those here who don't think that you are), then I'm willing to give you a 215 Buick. It will need work, but you sound resourceful and tireless.
PM me when you're in Milwaukee, and I'll help you load it up.
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Thanks.
Thanks for the offer and the measurements. Much appreciated.
I have a 215 I can get my hands on here and I'm pretty far from Milwaukee.
If I keep with the original use of the tank, I'd be mine sweeping.
We'll get there.
Kelly
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Something tells me that we may be witnessing the true essence of the sport..... Inspiring.
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Hey Kelly, just carry on brother. Karters are another breed, you'll be OK. :-D
Mike.
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And now for the hilarious (well, to me...)
http://blog.smithandedwards.com/bragging-board/
Hey, it's all part of the build log. LOL
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And because it's a build diary, (and I have nothing else to do for a bit) a little part of my process. Envisioning what I want.
Maybe more will follow. Less than stellar photoshop job 1, the top hatch.
Not sure of the finished product here or window arrangement... just throwing out ideas, but once I place a seat and determine the height needed for the cage, I'll fab up the hatch in fiberglass.
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"get out there and put our gear to the test."
What have you put to the test? I'm confused. What gear are you "running"? 3.78?? 3.55?? 4.11?? What does this have to do with landracing?
So far you've shown the prototype for a dangerous and illegal street car. A candidate for the Stateline parking lot -- provided it was brought there on a trailer.
This is a land racing RACING website.
I once didn't have a garage. And drank a lot of beer. And dreamed like you. I was a lot younger than you when I first put some parts together to build a competition car "back in the day". We showed up and made the program. We didn't stack up a pile of parts and say here's a car. And a lot(!) of the parts were the same as you've shown us. But that was 55 years ago.
Have you read some of the other threads on this website? This is about racing at a number of venues. Not posing. Not speculating. But getting help from people that went before us. That knew the ropes. Not piling rust upon rust and saying what they're gonna do in the future. But rather if A is better than B.
The passion seems to be there. But misdirected. Tell us what you REALLY want to accomplish and we'll help you get there. What's your goal -- besides taking up bandwith?
Stan Back
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What is your problem Stan? Care to share?
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Just did.
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Great. Thanks for that barrage, again.
Back to my stuff. Feel free to slam me again anytime you like.
I enjoy our little chats.
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What Stan and others are trying to relate is this site is for Land Speed Race Vehicles. Many talented individuals are here happy to answer questions asked by those of us who have an interest in building or who have built vehicles for actual use at a Land Speed Venue.
Your choice to build a lakester using original Ford parts some of which would never pass any tech inspection is where the guidance from those in the know would be wise to follow. Banjo rears and original front axles are fine to use BUT there's important updates to those parts needed to make them safe if this is to be a race vehicle. Three things to remember Be safe, have fun and go fast that's what we all hope to do when we finally get the chance to run down that race coarse. :-)
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I get it. I said that.
I'll be back sometime.
Kelly
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Hey Stan. You wouldn't have a spare propellor like you used to run on the Roadster back in the day, wouldja? :-) Wayno
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... I'll be back sometime...
Looks like we drove him right outa' here (no member profile now for 'No13'). Proud of ourselves, are we? :evil:
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NO... a bit disappointed :dhorse:
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He should probably talk to Mike Nish. And that's what kind of surprises me about this thread, in that he seems to be in contact with a great resource regarding anything LSR, but jumped into the pool without checking to see if there was any water in it.
I know when I got into this, I was a bit unrealistic as well. :|
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You never gave the poor guy a chance.
First time I've seen the forum eat its own young. :evil:
Maybe it is the #13?????.
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Maybe I'm a cynic but I'm with Stan. All this whiny bitchy "I'm a dreamer" stuff is kinda BS IMO. I guess I'm less of a dreamer and more of a do'er. And building with junk that you have laying around "cause they built with what they had back in the day" is wrong wrong wrong. An overseas competitor showed up with a dangerous pile of junk once with a blown hemi in it that was very very far from every passing tech. I asked him what he was thinking by bringing this "car" to try and race and he said "well this is how they built them in the old days" and I said um, no... take this thing outta here and don't come back until it's in a state that will actually pass tech.
Hope and dreams won't get you through tech and down the course. My $.02.
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Nathan, I agree with everything you said. I interpreted what he said in the beginning as he was just building a rat rod type thing with no intention of competeing. I thought of it as a little off season entertainment. YMMV :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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I visit a number of motorcycle forums. Every now and then someone mentions "The World's Fastest Indian" and invariably there will be a thread by a dreamer who wants to build a Munro replica, take it to Bonneville, and run 200+. Rarely does it involve an old Indian. Usually its an old Honda 350 that has been parked out in the weather for 15 years (ran when parked). The first question seems to always be "Where can I buy a fairing just like Munro's?". The next question is "How can I get my Honda to make 150 h.p.?". When you tell them the fairing is now illegal they get upset and reply with "Its my ass. I'll take the chance". After a few more exchanges the OP gets into a huff and vanishes. No need to be proud of yourself. Just think of it as saving someone a trip to the salt and a big disappointment.
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Maybe I'm a cynic but I'm with Stan. All this whiny bitchy "I'm a dreamer" stuff is kinda BS IMO. I guess I'm less of a dreamer and more of a do'er. And building with junk that you have laying around "cause they built with what they had back in the day" is wrong wrong wrong. An overseas competitor showed up with a dangerous pile of junk once with a blown hemi in it that was very very far from every passing tech. I asked him what he was thinking by bringing this "car" to try and race and he said "well this is how they built them in the old days" and I said um, no... take this thing outta here and don't come back until it's in a state that will actually pass tech.
Hope and dreams won't get you through tech and down the course. My $.02.
Nathan, as I read the entire thread leading up to No13 vacating this forum, I am a bit surprised at some of the negative comments. Does it matter what a persons motives are if he or she chooses to dream then at some point try and follow that dream? Your example of a guy bringing a sh*t box to tech and expecting it to pass only serves to provide a real life learning experience for a newbie who may not have done sufficient homework. When Kelly finishes his car, he will take it to tech and find out if his ideas pass. My guess is he will have the Nish guys look it over first and that will be a good thing. If he has someone with LSR experience look at his car locally, maybe to the surprise of some, Kelly presents an SCTA legal car. We have not seen his completed car yet.
You guys have me worried. I am currently building a new lakester and using a ton of old Formula Continental parts to get it done as inexpensively as possible. No junk yard parts yet but will try and find some good used parts I need at swap meets (modern day junk yards?). I think I will just build the car without posting progress here because at my age, I am just too thin skinned to handle all the flaming.
Kelly, if you still read this thread, keep building and stay in close contact with the Nish family or anyone else in your area with experience. Above all, have fun with the project.
John
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Using old formula parts is OK. May not be the most effective choice. But it's OK. This guy was not using old formula parts. He would have found a more receptive audience on the HAMB as advised. But my question is, What makes so many thing they can build anything and run it at Bonneville? You wouldn't build a car to the standards of 1951 and show up at Indy in May. But people keep popping up who feel that at Bonneville that is done all the time. Here is a car built with out using old ideas. Didn't cost a lot. Passed tech. Went fast.
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Using old formula parts is OK. May not be the most effective choice. But it's OK. This guy was not using old formula parts. He would have found a more receptive audience on the HAMB as advised. But my question is, What makes so many thing they can build anything and run it at Bonneville? You wouldn't build a car to the standards of 1951 and show up at Indy in May. But people keep popping up who feel that at Bonneville that is done all the time. Here is a car built with out using old ideas. Didn't cost a lot. Passed tech. Went fast.
Hi Rich:
You are correct, my approach with this new car is not optimal but one of the excersises is to use up as much on hand stuff in the garage as possible, i.e. garage cleaning. But don't rule out efficiency of a rocker rear suspension. Not that bad aerodynamically for an outboard wheel confuguration. One pass down track will tell if it works or not.
I still don't understand why it matters to anyone how a chap builds his car. It will eventually have to pass tech so no unsafe cars will be allowed to race. If any given car is not up to standard, the car owner will simply go back and fix it or don't show up again. Kelly (No13) by his own addmission is at the very beginning of his lakester project. He fully admitts he is starting with bits that may not pass muster but goes on to say that all will be made right in the end. I may be alone here but I want to see this car completed the way Kelly envisions it. I think he knows what he is up against and still willing to proceed. Rich, it should not be our concern how a racer wants to build a car. All that is on him. The car still must pass tech. Kelly came here for help (I think) and if he can't get it here (the best place), he will go elsewhere.
John
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i agree completely. But at the beginning of his thread, I understood him to be building something that looked like a tank from the beginnings. As things progressed on, I never really got the idea that wasn't still true. As such, the HAMB was the proper place for his build. But I stayed out of the discussion at the time because I saw no point in joining. I only posted now because I am really interested in what it is about Bonneville that makes people believe that cars built to 1950 standards will still be allowed to run. And get upset hen they find different. Good luck with your car. Did you say what motive power you will be using?
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Good luck with your car. Did you say what motive power you will be using?
I am kind of a 2.0L guy so will be using a modified Ford Cosworth BDG very similar to the one Ted Wenz lent me for the first lakester in 1993. The modification is a new cylinder head and intake system via John Stowe (cylinder head) and slide injectors by Dave Dahlgren. Burton Brown used the engine in his liner this year and is having a higher horsepower version made by John Stowe as we speak or so I heard. The engine I get to use produces 342 hp, 195 ft lbs of torque and 11,000 rpm if needed. I would post an image but can't seem to make it happen.
John
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ggl205,
(Which i assume stands for "G Gas Lakester, 205 mph) A nice 2 liter BDG at 342HPs should certainly make a VERY competitive G gas lakester. I may have missed it but did you say what your body style will be? Tank, Jack special etc.
Rex
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ggl205,
(Which i assume stands for "G Gas Lakester, 205 mph) A nice 2 liter BDG at 342HPs should certainly make a VERY competitive G gas lakester. I may have missed it but did you say what your body style will be? Tank, Jack special etc.
Rex
Hey Rex:
This new 2.0L engine has about 60 hp more than I had with the old BDG and 40 hp more than with the YBM used later in the first lakester. No doubt that if I get aero right, the G/GL record will come back to Wichita. Wait, it already is in Wichita, just at the wrong address.
My new car is not a tank. It has a 150" wheelbase, a two maybe three piece chassis, based on a 1984 Reynard FC car, roughly 7.5 sq. ft. frontal area and should come in around 2,000 pounds. Hard to explain body shape as it han't been made yet but will look familiar to many good streamliner shapes.
John
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Good luck with that engine, it cost Burton a lot of heart ache & pain in failures plus a pile of money. I hope you don't try to run the hewland transaxle that was on the thing as well.
Sid.
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Sid, why don't you like the Hewland?.
Many, many ratios and interchangeable, well in the early 80s there were. :-D
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Good luck with that engine, it cost Burton a lot of heart ache & pain in failures plus a pile of money. I hope you don't try to run the hewland transaxle that was on the thing as well.
Sid.
Sid:
I lent Burton the Hewlad M9 that came out of my Lakester. It successfully made record passes for seven years with only a side cover bearing failure due to excessive bearing preload. I routinely put between 350-400 hp through that box on nitrous. It is a solid transaxle.
The engine is solid too. Problems Burton had with it were not the engine. I have been around these deminutive engines for decades and you do have to treat them differently than a SBC. My first Lakester used a very similar BDG (Kent block), then a YBM version behind that very same Hewland. No serious issues causing a DNF over seven years of use.
John
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Sid, why don't you like the Hewland?.
Many, many ratios and interchangeable, well in the early 80s there were. :-D
I worked with Hewlands a bunch of years ago when I was building Formula Ford stuff for people. You misunderstand Mate, I do like them, it's just that Burton had a pile of failures with that one including broken parts, burned up bearings plus the clutch & he was paying so called expert's to work on the setup. & yes there were engine issues like the first time they fired the thing it jumped the belt & nailed the valves.
I also built a bunch of BDA stuff for rally guys way back when Escort's were the hot ticket & I was responsible for one that ran in a dirt midget so I know my way around that old Pomie $hit.
We ran a Weismann transaxle behind a blown nitro Keith Black hemi in the liner, probably every bit of 2500 hp (who dyno's a nitro engine :roll:) & I solved the breakage problems on that. It ran the last 12 years of it's racing life without another failure.
Sid.
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Sid, why don't you like the Hewland?.
Many, many ratios and interchangeable, well in the early 80s there were. :-D
I worked with Hewlands a bunch of years ago when I was building Formula Ford stuff for people. You misunderstand Mate, I do like them, it's just that Burton had a pile of failures with that one including broken parts, burned up bearings plus the clutch & he was paying so called expert's to work on the setup. & yes there were engine issues like the first time they fired the thing it jumped the belt & nailed the valves.
I also built a bunch of BDA stuff for rally guys way back when Escort's were the hot ticket & I was responsible for one that ran in a dirt midget so I know my way around that old Pomie $hit.
We ran a Weismann transaxle behind a blown nitro Keith Black hemi in the liner, probably every bit of 2500 hp (who dyno's a nitro engine :roll:) & I solved the breakage problems on that. It ran the last 12 years of it's racing life without another failure.
Sid.
Then you know never to turn these little twin cams backward, for any reason. The wrong clutch was the problem with bearing failue, not the pro who built the engine. Dunno what to say about the Hewlad failures other than to reiterate that the same box worked flawlessly for me over a seven year span of LSR racing includine a 1995 trip the Lake Gairdner. How many times have you split a Hewland or Webster gear in half. It has never happened to me in all of my FF, FC and SP2000 years of road racing including LSR.
Sid, we got two different versions of what happened to Burton but hey, I will take my chances with engine and trans.
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John,
I like your thinking about using some existing small formula car parts as the basis for your lakester. Lots of good "race proven" parts there. I also agree on using the Hewland tranny, my experience has only been with the 600 series but we raced them hard for a couple of years at Interscope , we put over 800 hp at 9000 through them with the turbo V6, and the only problem we ever had were related to dumb a$$ problems that were caused by the guy working on them. ( I won't mention his name but his initials are RS) and as you say there are many many ratio options and with an engine that runs to 11,000 you will need a good close ratio tranny.
Rex
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John,
I like your thinking about using some existing small formula car parts as the basis for your lakester. Lots of good "race proven" parts there. I also agree on using the Hewland tranny, my experience has only been with the 600 series but we raced them hard for a couple of years at Interscope , we put over 800 hp at 9000 through them with the turbo V6, and the only problem we ever had were related to dumb a$$ problems that were caused by the guy working on them. ( I won't mention his name but his initials are RS) and as you say there are many many ratio options and with an engine that runs to 11,000 you will need a good close ratio tranny.
Rex
Rex:
Some of my FC race tested parts were pretty well "tested" but most passed. I am using 100% of the rocker rear suspension from the Reynard. By using the Reynard chassis integrated with a legal SCTA chassis, all I have to do is fit up a scatter shield around the flywheel, add in a few line shields and bolt on all the FC stuff. As the Reynard used a SOHC Ford 2.0L engine, even the John Stowe BDG bolts right in. That little Hewland Mk9 is hard to break. Burton Brown broke two Webster S first gears on initial push off. The first gear breakage was with a gear I had used over a dozen times before so I have no idea why it broke. The second breakage was with a new gear so this only adds to the mystery.
I may be looking for a DG600 if we turbo the 2.0L or move up to F class. The only problem is the price of a DG these days. Got an affordable one (LOL)?
Boy, do I remember the Interscope car! Danny Ungias (sp) was the driver, I think, and clearly remember how fast this drag racer turned road racer was in his privately owned and operated Lola T-332 F5000 car. I think he broke the late Riverside Raceway ultimate lap record previously held by Mario Andretti. I was there that day and simply could not believe how fast Ungias was. Good times, for sure.
John
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DO (Danny Ongais) had a very large set of "attachements"! Don't get me started on how many times he proved it while I worked for Interscope! A true gentleman and a good guy. I worked on the Lola T-600s and the Porsche 935s.
Rex
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Sid, why don't you like the Hewland?.
Many, many ratios and interchangeable, well in the early 80s there were. :-D
I worked with Hewlands a bunch of years ago when I was building Formula Ford stuff for people. You misunderstand Mate, I do like them, it's just that Burton had a pile of failures with that one including broken parts, burned up bearings plus the clutch & he was paying so called expert's to work on the setup. & yes there were engine issues like the first time they fired the thing it jumped the belt & nailed the valves.
I also built a bunch of BDA stuff for rally guys way back when Escort's were the hot ticket & I was responsible for one that ran in a dirt midget so I know my way around that old Pomie $hit.
We ran a Weismann transaxle behind a blown nitro Keith Black hemi in the liner, probably every bit of 2500 hp (who dyno's a nitro engine :roll:) & I solved the breakage problems on that. It ran the last 12 years of it's racing life without another failure.
Sid.
r
Then tou know never to turn thise little twin cams backward, for any reason. The wrong clutch was the problem with besring failue, not the pro who built the engine. Dunno what to say about the Hewlad failures other than to reiterate that the same box worked flawlessly for me over a seven year span of LSR racing includine a 1995 trip the Lake Gairdner. How many times have you split a Hewland or Webster gear in half. It has never happened to me in all of my FF, FC and SP2000 years of road racing including LSR.
Sid, we got two different versions of what happened to Burton but hey, I will take my chances with engine and trans.
I do remember your lakester from the Gairdner trip in 95 but I was too busy working on Betsy to see what else was going on around me. We were always the last one's back to Mt Ive station when the hot food & hot water were all gone.
Ken Walkey killed two engines, Chuck Salmon's roadster ran good, George Fields had some handling issues in the conditions & we went 370-something after changing to the smaller B engine.
What was the outcome for you?
Sid.
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Hi Sid:
We ran 218 mph on gasoline all week with one short interruption. The track was rough and vibration effected my suspension-less car by breaking off the right front corner. We used George Field's welder to patch the front axle and continued running. SCTA officials were in attendance but would not certify records sighting that we were not racing at altitude or some such nonsense. FIA was there too so we were hopeful for those records. Our consistent speed was never an issue but timing in both directions was. This problem was never fixed so it was a bust as far as records were concerned. We had a ton of fun, made many new friends, spent time with the finest safety crew I have ever met but really wanted that FIA record. It was just not to be, I suppose.
Upon arriving home, I freshened the car and raced at SpeedWeek that same year. We were a bit more fortunate and secured the G/GL record at 205 mph which Stainless now holds at 211 mph.
John
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Thanks for that John, yeah the salt surface was rough alright but in the end a great experience.
Here's a little Betsy from then & no it wasn't a 400 pass. Remember the push truck I scrounged up, the next one was an even bigger Hino cabover that I pushed both Al & George with.
Sid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ3VOeILdM0
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Sid, that video clip brought back fond memories. Thank you for posting it. Now that Betsy is retired, does Al plan on placing her in a museum? I bet the NHRA Hot Rod museum would love to have her and a perfect retirement home.
John
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It's in Jim Price's museum in Salt Lake City.
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Looks like a great landing place for such a significat part of American born racing history (both car and driver).
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Betsy along with Al's 76 Roadster, the old Jimmy junior fuel dragster & his junior midget were originally sold to Ralph Whitworth of The Flying A Garage Museum. When he went bust, everything went to auction & Al's cars were split up. The roadster ended up in Speedy Bill's collection.
Sid.
http://www.hotrod.com/events/coverage/hrdp-1002-rare-car-auction/