Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Emil Shuffhausen on March 02, 2015, 10:33:10 PM
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Some of you guys convinced me not to give up the dream when I found out a chassis is not as cheap as I had been told...by the guy who sold me a fiberglass tank.
Anyway- I'm about ready to pull the trigger on a welder. I was thinking TIG, but the entry price is steep. A guy at a local welding supply shop told me I could do what I want with a Millermatic 190 MIG. Specs say up to 5/16" steel and 1/4" aluminum. 140 Amps at 21 VDC, 40% Duty Cycle. I'm certainly not going to do any production work. Just my own stuff. Does this welder sound OK?
Thanks again. Lee
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Lee, I'm a weldor / fabricator so I'm speaking from that perspective. My experience has been people tend to buy what they feel they can minimally get away with and then quickly find out that they'd have been better off with more capacity. I realize most people are on a fairly restricted budget but if you can see your way to buying the smallest of the full sized machines that come on wheels you'll be better off. You'll have capacity that should work for most of the race car work you want to do, you won't have to build a cart for the machine and the best part is you'll be able to use full sized reels of wire. This is a far cheaper way to buy wire and you won't have to change it out nearly as often.
Just a tip. No matter what machine you end up buying, every time you change out a spool of wire remove the contact tip and blow out the liner from both ends. You'll save yourself a lot of feed problems.
Pete
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:cheers:
I would by nothing less than a Miller 250 or the equiv. you will never regret it I have an Iron Man Hobart 210 which is now a 220 or 225 an I consider it marginal on some of the things you will need to do as your SALT FEVER drives you to fab your way toward the SALT!!!!!!!
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OK I'll buck the trend of my two buddies above, and love them both, but think the Miller you looked at will probably do over 95% of the 'steel' welding you will do. I've build trailers, all of what I have accomplished with the lakester and other projects with a Miller 175 or 180 can't remember and I'm not home.
The only thing I didn't do was the final weld on the front axles...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/axles-4.jpg)
... I tacked them and then took them to a welding shop due to the thickness of the metal and wanting good penetration. Other than that everything was done with the Miller Mig.
When guys talk about what boats will handle at sea the usual response is that it isn't the boat but the captain. Here it isn't the welder but the operator. You need to know how to put down a safe weld under different circumstances and know the limitations of the welder and yours. If in doubt tack it together and have someone else weld it. That usually doesn't cost that much as you have done all the time consuming work.
So with that in mind and if you have no welding experience welding up a cart for the welder would be a good first project. When I bought my TIG I could of welded up the cart very quickly with the MIG but made myself do it with the TIG to gain some experience.
I wouldn't count on using the 190 for much of the aluminum work you would probably need to do like building tanks and such. You just don't have the same control over the weld with a spool gun as you would with the TIG especially if you hadn't welded much. You can get a spool gun for my 180 but a good Miller distributor told me that I wouldn't be using it for much as the 180 didn't have the power to weld thicker aluminum with it and it would probably blow thru thin stuff. I have about $2200 in my 225 amp TIG buy the time I bought it and tanks and supplies and such and now even more but it has been a great investment but for what you want to do I'd start with the MIG and learn how to use it right (college workshop night class maybe??),
Sumner
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I purchased my welder specifically for building my bellytank and went through the same decision process. Also considered Mig & Tig and eventually bought a Miller Dynasty 200DX Tig. Pricey but is small and portable enough to take along to Bonneville. Tig is also handy in that mild steel, stainless steel, and aluminum can all be welded with the same shielding gas.
In retrospect in looking at the construction of my chassis there are some welds at odd positions that I can't imagine trying to do with a mig gun.
Just my opinion.
Andy
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When we built the chassis on our lakester we cut,fitted and tacked the tubing with a MIG. When I had what I thought would be 8 hr work I had a certified professional welder come and TIG weld the joints. Had to make sure the MIG wire was the same composition as the TIG rod.He bought his own welder,and gas and plugged into my outlet.
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I guess I'm the "odd man out" here-- I use a torch with oxy-acetylene gas. One thing that I found out quickly when I started out was that I was using a torch that was WAY too big for the gauge tubing that I was welding. I replaced the big torch with a much smaller new one made by Craftsman- one that has now been out of production for a long time. I liked it a lot but now no one makes replacement parts for it so I bought a small Uniweld "aircraft torch" to replace it. Victor also makes a similar model.
I like the versatility of gas welding. The heat control is excellent and by changing tips and gas pressure, a very wide range of things can be welded, brazed, soldered, or pre- heated. I simply do not weld heavy stuff myself; I leave that to someone equipped to do that properly.
If I had it to do all over again, I'd use oxy- propane since acetylene has gotten so expensive in the last few years.
Whichever welding technique you choose, practice, practice, practice!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I'm a TIG man myself, just for the versatility and control.
MIG is more for production work in the world I live in.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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I am with Mark, TIG is for building race cars and MIG is for building trailers. TIG is so much more versatile in race car fabrication and remember that you are originally buying it to build your car but you will have it for years (I have owned my original Airco TIG machine for over 30 years) and you will be finding project after project that it will provide you with the best welds. A really good web site to see various types of welding done and great tips on how to weld is Jody Collier's Welding tips and tricks (http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/ ) .
Have fun.
Rex
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Thanks Rex Great site. Will be using it. Close to buying a Miller diversion 180 tig welder 125 or 220 volts- welds .030- 3/16 aluminum or steel - folding and rolling bench and 2 clamps that are made for it. 24 good reviews on it. Will be welding stainless and aluminum 1st.
JL222
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...and MIG is for building trailers....
Ouch that hurts 8-). I'll bet there are a lot of trailer welded cars out there that have set records. Some probably even have done it with a stick welder. I know of one Stude that got its owner a hat and has run over 250 without a TIG weld on it at the time :-D.
I think we shouldn't scare someone away from building a car because they don't have a TIG, can't afford one or whatever. I couldn't afford a TIG until a few years ago but I'm sure glad I didn't wait as there would of been a lot of things I never would of built or had fun building during all those years.
Besides the cost there is also a larger learning curve with a TIG. Don't get me wrong I love my TIG and would sure hate to part with it but you can build a race car with a MIG and if that is what one can afford now then I say go for it,
Sum
P.S. John I'd try to move up to a TIG over 200 amps so on that thicker aluminum you aren't running up against the duty cycle so much and having it cut off. I weld a lot of 3/16 with mine and have had to weld some a little heavier and have been very happy that I have a 225 amp. 3/16 on aluminum vs. steel sucks up a lot more heat.
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I totally agree with Sumner on the 200 amps or more for the 3/16 aluminum.
Also look at the Tig torch ratings on AC for aluminum. Many "200 amp" air cooled tig torches are only rated to 150 amps AC. Even with 2 heavy gloves it becomes impossible to hold. After getting my water cooled torch I can't imagine going back to air cooled. Much more compact and only takes a light glove.
Andy
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I agree with both Sum and Andy. I'd just add that it never hurts at any time when you're welding to throw in a little preheat. It will usually make the job significantly easier, especially if you're using a marginal machine.
Pete
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What Sum and Andy said x2.
I bought a Miller 165 econo-tig and it's not very fond of aluminum. :x
Don
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Welding machines are as critical as safety equipment.
You're putting your life on the line in a car you built.
Get the biggest and best, get into debt if you have to.
The good machines make you a better weldor.
Bargains are the sandals you buy when going on vacation. :cheers:
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Wow. Lots of advice. I feel like Vinnie Barbarino (I'm so confused).
I know what you guys are talking about with regards to the cheapest way. I'm a plumber and I fix cheap plumbing almost every day. Yeah, they paid for it twice. Having said that, a good TIG is still pretty expensive. I might be able to swing that Dynasty 200DX, but it might be a couple of months. If we could talk MIG, though, how about Miller's 212 Auto Set? Rated output is 160 Amps at 24.5 VDC, 60% duty cycle. It's 230V only. That's OK for me. I'll be getting my garage wired for 220. I work with electricians and we get an employee discount.
Thanks.
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The 212 Auto Set would be a satisfactory choice. It will certainly do the job you're looking for and it takes the larger spools of wire.
I would suggest lots of practice before you start welding on the car. To ensure that your welds are sound be sure to clean the area to be welded thoroughly and I'd suggest using a slight weave between the two pieces to ensure adequate penetration in both.
Good luck with your project and even more importantly, have fun.
Pete
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If you can wait until August for Speed Week, One of the race teams [sorry I'm old and can't put a name to them], is a Miller dealer and brings a variety of machines to the Salt for you to use and demo. You can get good advice there and touch and feel a bunch of good machines. Personally I'd hold out for a Miller Syncrowave 200 and add water cooling. Just my nickel's worth.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Speed Week Miller man is Burton Brown: http://victorymotorsports.org/
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Don't be set on one type. I started with oxy/act because I had it and learned on exhaust systems. Never lost a weld using it. Moved to a Lincoln AC/DC 225 stick and got pretty good with it but used certified steam fitter welders to do my frame work. Most could not believe I had DC at home. Now we mostly use a Hobart 200+ MIG; the more I use it the better I get. My son built his first 1/2mile dirt car with this machine. Good Luck.
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One expense never mentioned is the fire expense of a splatter welder (i.e. mig, stick). No splatter with a tig or oxy/accet torch when done correctly, no hot sparks flying around setting everything within 15 ft on fire including your clothes. Not to mention the occasional splatter spark going in your ; shirt sleeve, collar, shoe , ears, glove. Then you have the cleanup expense from all that molten metal flying around besides what adheres firmly next to the weld.
Overall a tig is less expensive and easier to weld with. Cheaper to pay a higher cost once up front than continuous higher expense on the backside . At least your rod (or wire)goes on the weld instead of the floor. It's also easier than mig and stick in out of position welds.
Yup, Im prejudiced. :-D
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Each process has its strengths and weaknesses. Developing the hand skills for the process you choose is what's important. Examine the alternatives, decide which you want to use and then practice until you can produce a quality weld.
Pretty simple really.
Pete
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Take a few welding classes at your local welding supply store. Takes a few Saturdays, but it is _well_ worth it. Begin with a basic MIG and flux-core class.
You will discover that you will ultimately want both a MIG and a TIG machine. Most folks that are serious welders own both types of machines because they each have their advantages and disadvantages. They also typically own a plasma cutter and an Oxy/Acet touch as well. Of course, you will need a 4 inch grinder. You can be a good welder, or a good grinder. :-)
I would begin with a decent quality 120 volt MIG welder. (Like a Lincoln model 140, about $500, plus tank.) See if you can find one used with the tank on Craigslist. It is much better to buy a decent welder used than a crappy low-end welder new.
Play with it. Get the hang of both MIG and flux core. Build some sort of trailer, decorative patio railing, welding table or "widget" project to get the feel for it and to understand its attributes and limitations. Use both MIG and flux core. Flux-core typically makes a stronger weld. MIG typically makes a neater weld.
Get someone with some experience to help you fabricate your driver's compartment and roll cage. (You will likely find that person while you are taking your welding classes at your local welding supply store.) You need the advice and help with those parts because your life depends on those parts. Once you get the roll cage built, (best done using TIG) you can very likely build the rest of the chassis yourself with the welder of your choice.
Bill D.
(KillaCycle)
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Important comments about TIG welding:
TIG (tungsten inert gas) welding is the process commonly referred to as
"Heliarc" -- which is a copyrighted name owned by the Linde Corporation,
who developed the process using helium as the shielding gas. Argon is
more popular, as it shields better . . . although helium is useful in some
cases, due to different heat effects compared to argon. By the way,
Linde also makes nice TIG welding machines. I used to own one. And I
am a HUGE fan of TIG welding. I absolutely love it, and have been doing
it (as well as other welding processes) for decades.
The difference between TIG welding and others is that since in this
process, the tungsten (so it won't melt) electrode is non-consumable,
any filler material must be fed into the weld puddle by hand. The heat
input is controlled independently of this, generally by a foot-operated
pedal.
Which brings me to my more important comments. . .
In "stick" welding, where the welding rod gets consumed, and in
MIG welding, where the wire electrode gets consumed, the filler
material automatically flows into the weld puddle -- and this flow
is generally enough to prevent cracking of the weld as it cools.
But in TIG welding, you could pour too much heat and too little
filler material into the weld. This typically can cause the weld to
crack, and a cracked weld is like NO WELD! This is because a crack
can spread very easily under a small amount of force, due to stress
concentration. A familiar example of this? Bite a potato chip bag
and it will tear quite easily.
When TIG welding, except in special (rare) circumstances, it's
important to add enough filler material to provide strength and
prevent cracking. (That's the brief lesson . . . more details on
this are available, if you care to ask.)
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Tallguy, continue the lesson. We're listening. [And at mt age I haven't got much time left]. :-D
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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I have both built a car where I did most of the welding, and one where I had team members who were professionals do it---spend the time to learn to cope your frame properly and from time to time have a welder come by and tack it wait until you get the whole car frame built before you do any final welds. YOU have many joys and frustrations coming----but you are about to embark on something that few will experience---the frustration and reward of building a car from scratch
SPECIAL CONSTRUCTION----it is a built car not an assembled car
WELCOME to the sick addiction---have fun :cheers:
After thinking about this some more---no one has mentioned that TIG welders also have stick capability--If you bought a TIG you could learn to tack very well with stick
I would heed Tall Guy it wasn't that long ago that the FAA ONLY let planes with cromolly tubing frames be welded with gas.
a good stick weld on mild steel tubing properly prepared is hard to beat.
If you think you will continue as a car hobbyist you will eventually want TIGs versatility with different metals
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Can a frame be O/A welded? Yes, I know IT CAN be done, but will it pass tech?
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If it's done properly, yes.
Pete
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I've decided against the MIG. It will be either a MIG/TIG combo machine or a TIG/stick. The TIG costs more. A lot more. I'll just save up longer. I don't like making big (elective) purchases on credit. I have my income tax refund, plus I'll be making a big scrap metal run sometime soon. I'm a plumber and I keep all the copper and brass that I remove, along with pretty much any other metal. I kinda go overboard with it. I have buckets of "junk" metal, buckets of electrical cord, plus about 130 garbage disposals. (copper wire in the motor). It's enough to fill up a buddy's 16' trailer. That should get me pretty close to the TIG package deal. It includes a water-cooled torch plus the cooling unit.
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Water cooling is definitely the way to go. Make sure the machine is AC/DC with high frequency. That way you can handle anything that comes along. Also make sure that you're able to do most of your welding in the middle ranges of the machines capacity. Welders aren't as efficient when you're working them at the top end. I'm liking your approach. You'll do just fine. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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I've decided against the MIG. It will be either a MIG/TIG combo machine or a TIG/stick. The TIG costs more. A lot more. I'll just save up longer. I don't like making big (elective) purchases on credit. I have my income tax refund, plus I'll be making a big scrap metal run sometime soon. I'm a plumber and I keep all the copper and brass that I remove, along with pretty much any other metal. I kinda go overboard with it. I have buckets of "junk" metal, buckets of electrical cord, plus about 130 garbage disposals. (copper wire in the motor). It's enough to fill up a buddy's 16' trailer. That should get me pretty close to the TIG package deal. It includes a water-cooled torch plus the cooling unit.
I'm a plumber also. Ditto on the scrap.
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I corrected an earlier post about-- GAS WELDING -- it didn't make sense the way I had it