Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: FABRK8R on February 16, 2015, 02:52:14 PM
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So,... I have a rule book (wife just moved it though,... drat & double drat),... thought I'd ask a few questions to check my sanity about my '51 flatty build.
What is the max displacement bore/stroke allowable in XF/GL?
I understand that no special overhead valve heads are allowed(ie: ardun, etc...),... what is the limitations(ie: can you build your own) on building a head that keeps the side valve set up within the engine block intact?
must the valves be operated via camshaft, or can they be opened via solenoid?
Would a desmotronic set up be allowable, if it could be fashioned?
no huffers or turbos,... got that ,.... fuel Injection seems to be allowed, what about intercoolers, seems I remember no chilling the intake etc...?
Appreciate the help fellas.
God Bless & Godspeed,
Sean
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called wife, found 2013 rule book!
2.A.1:
XF=32-53' block allowed,... 325 is max displacement.
any dialogue on earlier Q's fellas?
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A desmo flathead! If you can build it I think they will let you run it. Yes you can make your own heads. I don't know why an intercooler wouldn't be legal. The solenoid valve deal I don't think would fly. To much like EFI and F1. There is a contact in the book for answers that are worth reading.
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Sean
The XF engine rules do not state valves must be operated by the cam but remember the class is called vintage however that question should be directed to the SCTA official in charge of the vintage engine class contact Mike Stewart m.stewart46@yahoo.com
Superchargers are allowed in the XF class there's no reference in the rules to chilling or intercooling not being allowed. Any ignition system may be used and computers are allowed for data collection purposes only.
The following are not allowed in the XF class Turbochargers and Electronic fuel injection. :-)
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The following are not allowed in the XF class Turbochargers and Electronic fuel injection. :-)
"...For reasons of authenticity...USING VINTAGE BODIES" which I read as meaning it's legal in non-vintage (ie, streamliners and lakesters) bodies.
But check with the authorities. :cheers:
Mike
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Mike has a turbo, EFI, V4F/GL. So I guess you are right about turbos in Lakesters. I had a turbo GMC/Vega in XO/BGAlt. But they would not allow me to run it in my 32.
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Running in a Lakester now that changes a few things for sure :cheers:
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Mike has a turbo, EFI, V4F/GL. So I guess you are right about turbos in Lakesters. I had a turbo GMC/Vega in XO/BGAlt. But they would not allow me to run it in my 32.
And Nathan tuned this:
(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10881.0;attach=45983;image)
Running in a Lakester now that changes a few things for sure :cheers:
The title of the thread is XF/GL Engine Rules/Possibilities???
:cheers:
Mike
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Hi Mike
Question whats the capacity of your water and fuel tank? :-D
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Different rules pertain to running flatheads in Special Construction and running flatheads in Vintage classes. See 2.A.1 (especially page 20, 7th paragraph, 2014 Rule Book.
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Hi Mike
Question whats the capacity of your water and fuel tank? :-D
Ronnie, I believe that is Elmo Rodge (Wayno)'s car
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Thanks Saltracer :cheers:
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And this Mike:
Mike has a turbo, EFI, V4F/GL. So I guess you are right about turbos in Lakesters. I had a turbo GMC/Vega in XO/BGAlt. But they would not allow me to run it in my 32.
is Mike Stewart, not me. :mrgreen:
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Wow, lotsa stuff,...
Ronnie- Just to clarify XF/GL would be "normally aspirated, vintage, flathead, gas, lakester",... so the supercharger is not an option,... correct?, thanks for the contact info. I appreciate the no efi clarification,...
any ignition,... soo then,... crank triggers & coil packs are cool, yeah?
Rich-Thought was that the desmo would eliminate the whole valve float deal, though it may not be worth the effort, wanted to know the answer for curiosity sake. good to know on the heads for sure!!!
Stan-Thanks, will see what I have in the 2013,... if you know there is adifference in 2014 can you post that here?
Mike-My body is an aluminum Hell Cat Belly Tank
thanks again fellas
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looks like water injection is allowed too yes?
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Hi Sean
Yes XF/GL is normally asperated if you wanted you could run a supercharger the class would then be XF/BGL thats what I run with my lakester XF/BGL my lakester body is also a hellcat drop tank body. My supercharger is a 671 GMC makes the old flathead turn on nicley over 174 in the mile so far for my lakester.
Ron
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My water tank is 15 gallons. Wayno
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My water tank is 15 gallons. Wayno
Wayno Thanks same size as mine.
Ron
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Not sure on this, but I doubt whether there is adequate space to fit a desmo system in a vintage block.
I could be wrong though.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Ronnie-Thanks much Brother Hellcat, nice runnin'!. Guess the no one over 200mph XF/GL carrot waivin' has got me thinkin' wild thoughts. Honestly makin' it to the salt & doin' that first run with friends & family will be the purest joy of this adventure. Any pics of what you did for the chassis?
Fordboy-would surely agree that it would be pretty tight (if at all possible),... guess I wouldn't put it past some of those krazy fellers here :mrgreen: to make it work though :-D
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The unblown record is 196 and it's 12 years old.
The blown record is 214.
And Elmo Rodge is just waiting for a good course to go 200.
You'd better hurry.
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Sean heres a link to our build diary we started a LONG time ago it hasnt been update for some time. The chassisi is still the same the only major change has been the cage I moved it six inches back and made it a bit lower also added a canopy. The original cage is hanging in my shop didnt want to jsut throw it away.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4354.0.html
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Sean more insperation heres an in car video of my lakester flathead runs 172 in the mile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5xpBsWCTwo&feature=em
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Thought was that the desmo would eliminate the whole valve float deal, though it may not be worth the effort, wanted to know the answer for curiosity sake. good to know on the heads for sure!!!
You must have thee flathead of all flatheads if you need desmo valve control. Sounds like Jimmy Stevens might need to be concerned about you. IMO the point of the vintage class is to keep things sorta vintage-esque… mechanically at least. There was never desmo or pneumatic valve control during the vintage era. Not that I have any authority over the matter but if I were polled as a vintage engine racer about this, I'd vote no way Jose. Nice to dream though. :-D
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I don't mean to hijack things but Ronnie do you have more pics of your tank before you cut it? I just started a build with a tank that looks identical to yours but the seller said it was from an AD-1. If it is a p38 tank i know where two more sit for sale right now.
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The pictures of your tank are identical to my tank. This size and shape drop tank was used on a lot of aircraft a lot more than many think. Besides the Navy using them they were also used on Army aircraft.
Last year at a local air show I saw a restored large amphibious twin engine air plane from the WW2 era that had two of these tanks one under each wing the tanks were both in flawless condtion.
My thinking is this tank is a universal tank used by all forces and for many type of aircraft. To my knowledge at the 300 gallon capacity it is the second largest aluminum drop tank made for the war. The largest was for the P-38 which I think was 330 gallon. For some reason a lot of these tanks are now becoming avalible I know a guy in Arizona had a dozen of them a while back thats where I got my second one. I have no plans of ever cutting it up its a neat conversation piece in my shop. My second tank is Army green and my first tank was Navy blue. I cannot find any build information on my second tank but it is identical in every aspect.
On the side of my first tank I found the build information that says Naval Aircraft Factory Philadelphia PA. other information listed is capacity 300 gallons the weight and a serial number.
With careful planing you can put a lot of stuff in this size tank I know from experiance heck I have become a pacaging expert because of this project.
Ron
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Ronnie,
Kool deal man, thanks for sharin'. :cheers:
Nate,
Just thinkin' out the box, little old me is just a fart in the wind. They got's pros to worry about. :-D I dream about the moon & sometimes ya gotta jus' realize that the stairs only go's to the 6th floor.
Stan,
Lol,... I am hurry'n, just a little slow is all!
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Nuggets fer the friendly neighborhood hijackers,... :-D
After researchin' my F6F Hellcat tank,... I found this info on the web about a 150gal F-1000 Drop Tank Data plate,...
http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=37801
The tank also fit the AD-1 Skyraider, AM-1 Mauler, F7F Tigercat, F8F Bearcat, F4U Corsair(s)/F2G Super Corsair, A-26/JD-1 Invader, UF Albatros, A2D Skyshark & AF Guardian.
Makes sense to build one & fit multiple rigs,... stop in any time fellers,... the water's fine :-D!
Warbirds are sweet!
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Another question,... how low can you go???
looking at running the Goodyear Eagle Dragway Special Land Speed Tire (D2286) 28"x4.5"x15" on the rear,...
... I do not see anything refering to scrub line (ie;belly of car not hanging bellow lip of wheel incase of a flat),... seems like you can drop the shell on the ground,... any recomendations to minimum height in respect to depth of salt on let's say a 2500#'r with 4.5 rear wheels with possibly a thinner/smaller front tire (thinking 25x4.5x15 but am very open to narrower size suggestions)???
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With the time I have spent poking around on here there seems to be two schools of thought, at time with heated debate. One is to keep it high and limit the mirroring effect from the ground, the other is drop it down and keep what you can out from under the body. I subscribe to the second personally. Im in the process of setting up my tank as well and as I understand there is no limit on proximity to the ground. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
James
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do not forget the crunchies if you are going to run B'Ville
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... You must have thee flathead of all flatheads if you need desmo valve control...
... There was never desmo... valve control during the vintage era...
I agree about no known flathead needing desmodromic.
But there's seldom anything "new under the sun" in engine development; pretty much everything has been tried before. In the mid 1920's there was a sleeve valve car engine that was desmodromic. Instead of the usual crank/rod arrangement to move the sleeves, it had one camshaft to lift them and another to lower them. Probably also was some "vintage era" desmodromic poppet valve engine, but I can't think of one right now.
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Jack,
hmmm,... too many years in Deutschland has me spelling it Desmotronic "Desmodromic" Lol
anyhoo,... got the idear looking at Momma's 695 Monster,... thought it was worth the question & conversations :-D
Pickle,
hmmmm,... Wondered about the high rig too,... kinda like put the tank in the clean air. My thought on low & flat was that it would trim off some frontal area to make the hole in the air "mo-smallish"!
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... You must have thee flathead of all flatheads if you need desmo valve control...
... There was never desmo... valve control during the vintage era...
I agree about no known flathead needing desmodromic.
But there's seldom anything "new under the sun" in engine development; pretty much everything has been tried before. In the mid 1920's there was a sleeve valve car engine that was desmodromic. Instead of the usual crank/rod arrangement to move the sleeves, it had one camshaft to lift them and another to lower them. Probably also was some "vintage era" desmodromic poppet valve engine, but I can't think of one right now.
Jack, I'm sure you're right about desmo existing in one form or another but when I say there was no desmo in the vintage era, I meant the vintage dry lakes racing era. That seems to be what our vintage rules are based on largely... unless we're talking ignition systems. Anyways...
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Nathan- yeah, I understand the spirit of the 'vintage' classes & rules. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents-worth of engine trivia. The example I was remembering was 1923 - 1934 Imperia (Belgian; ancestor of the present-day Imperia high-performance hybrid car). But I remembered wrongly; it was desmo slide valves, not sleeve valves.
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Way I understand it though,... other than the block being an old flatty & no overhead valves,...
XF/GL is a special construction class, which is not as "restrictive" about things like EFI & such like the vintage classes according to the RB.
I also understand the just because you can, should you? & in the spirit of being historicaly correct,... mucho respect for the trad rodders.
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You sure won't be the first one to run EFI on a flathead. If you want to, go for it.
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Next thing you know he'll want to let the 1952 air out of his tires and put in new stuff. :roll: Wayno
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If you want to see your competition using EFI will keep you within sight of them.
DW
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Next thing you know he'll want to let the 1952 air out of his tires and put in new stuff. :roll: Wayno
psssssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhh!
:-D
I am leaning towads a custom manifold, port fuel injection(20 or 22lb target of 250-280hp), crank trigger, wideband O2's & a mega squirt computer. GDI seems counter productive because of the style of engine(being side valve) in question. Anyone have good examples of similar set ups on Flatheads. Like ya'll say, surely not the first. Have found many on the web,... just asking of examples being run here?
Really do like the old hilborn set up for nastalgia sake,... but think I'm gonna go a bit more intuitive.
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I have just 2 part throttle passes at El Mirage on my setup. We'll know more this year. Wayno
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(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/saltracer1/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/20150221_154445_zpsculefs42.jpg)
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/saltracer1/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/20150221_154429_zpsyvdseczi.jpg)
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/saltracer1/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/20150222_181752_zps6ofevqnb.jpg)
My project so far, efi with Eaton supercharger
bought a lot of the stuff to build the intake from http://www.rossmachineracing.com/