Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: sofadriver on December 16, 2014, 11:37:50 PM
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/9h1v2ixp26b211h/2014-12-16%2017.40.16.jpg?dl=0
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The frame looks good Mike! Almost there. Just some paint and it is ready to race!
Don
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I can't for the life of me get these pics to post!
this was just a trial posting and now I cant get rid of it!
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Really nice clean looking design. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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mmmm
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I just downloaded your pic and was going to post it for you but you seem to have got working. :cheers:
Looks good but I don't envy you one bit. :-D
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nuts - I just spent a half hour writing about the project then lost it all :cry:
time for bed - more later
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Methinks the frame in the picture is a work in progress and a few more tubes will be added, I hope.
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Methinks the frame in the picture is a work in progress and a few more tubes will be added, I hope.
You bet. That was just tacked to get me fitted into the right position. Top tubes and cross braces being added tomorrow. After 3 tries (and 3 wood mock-ups) we finally got me into a good position. I'll be looking above the front tire and below the lower fork tree so getting the angle of my back was critical (I've had a few vertebrae fused together in my neck and can't tilt my head as back far as normal).
So, here's the plan..........
Motor is a built Kawasaki KX100 dirt bike engine hopefully making about 30hp at the wheel.
Weight should be 125-ish. (325 lbs raceweight.)
Frontal area will be slightly smaller than the famed Buddfab streamliner. Height at top of helmet is just shy of 32"
Textbook aeros (and a few more tricks :evil:)
Frame is air pressurized to supply an auto-shifter. No foot controls (rear brake is hand lever actuated).
I've got sprockets to take it to 145+ (on paper, anyhow :roll:)
Nothing will be overlooked or left to chance.
To put this in perspective, the 50cc Buddfab had 20hp and race weight was well over 600lbs. They used up 1/8 mile just getting the clutch out and still ran 96mph over the first mile and 116 at the 2 mile.
Goal is 140 (wish I could run on the long course!)
I'll try to keep up on this as I think it's going to be fun.
Critiques and suggestions are always welcome!
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BuddFab had 3 square feet of frontal area ... coefficient of drag was extraordinarily low ... the driver/rider had to cock his shoulders as the frame was too narrow to lay down in square. A lot to engineer.
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"Never mind."
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Guess i forgot to mention its an APS bike
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She's a roller!
I'll be locating the footpegs tomorrow. There's a possibility that I may be able to touch my toes together behind the rear wheel. Depends on how close my crotch is to the front of the tire. That would do wonders for the tail aeros!
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Top pic shows bungs to be used to mount footpegs behind tire. I'll be almost able to touch my toes together while straddling the rear tire. Only time in my life I wished I was more bow-legged. :-D
Bottom pic shows the "crotch stopping post" now famous amongst my friends and subject of numerous snide remarks. Actually, the tail section will wrap around it and it won't be visible.
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more pics
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I wasn't sure when you decided to scrap the first bike but I see now how your thinking's evolved and I'm impressed. Keep up the great work! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Thanks, Pete.
I new halfway thru the first build that it could be taken to a higher level.
Who knows - I might feel the same when this one's done.
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Hey Sofa
Did you have any thoughts about reducing the fork travel?-- Looks like the stock rs forks.
I know it is too late now but you could get 50mm out of the forks and mabe 50mm out of the steering stem.
Are you going to be looking through the forks and have your head behind the tripple clamps?
This will be a very interesting build as my son has been using a yz80 in APS-100 and now we are going BIG block with a rs 125.
Keep up the good work
Oh-- watch your l/h toes in the chain :-D
Bones
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Here's an interesting wind tunnel video. Somewhat relative. At about 3:40 the smoke is held behind the machine. Curious how much disturbance there is back there.
http://youtu.be/zG8Htax6_Og
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Bones, it's as low as possible now. I'm looking between the top of the front tire and the bottom of the lower fork tree so I've only got about 4" of windshield. 32 1/2" to the top of my helmet.
People chucle at calling a 125 a big block but, really, it's like comparing a small block V8 to a big block. Huge difference ! Are you starting with an RS125? Let me know.
Thanks Nortonist. I've studied everything that Kolb did. He really did a fantastic job on that bike. That video shows the body aeros around the rider could have stood a lot of improvement but he still needed to be able to get on and off it. He was running BUB and I don't know what those rules say about rider's speed humps. The vid shows lots of turbulence behind his head. Speed humps are only restricted by build materials under SCTA rules and I'll be taking full advantage of that. Like you, I wish the smoke operator had spent more time behind the bike. BUB rules are way different there, too, but it would have been interesting. He was narrower in back than me but I'll have full body to 10" behind the tire. We'll see how it works out. Wind tunnel testing is not in my budget. I wish I could see the effects of an open, spinning wheel back there.
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I couldn't afford wind tunnel time either. I rely on El Mirage dust to tell me what's happening behind. The original body I built was more of a style effort but seemed to work well. Not a lot of dust being kicked up.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/215/b7919may11.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/5zb7919may11j)
Then I got the brainwave that enclosing the rear wheel would smooth the airflow. I was surprised to see that instead of being cleaner I was towing a big ball of dust behind the rear wheel. Needless to say the body was severely trimmed and seems to work better. Sure would be nice to be able to get into a wind tunnel.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/843/b7919mayy2012.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/nfb7919mayy2012j)
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That's really interesting. I'm sure you questioned whether the surface condition was the same before you got out the hacksaw.
Was speed the same when the pics were taken? Any wheel spin occurring?
Any ideas on why the open wheel was better? Seems contrary to normal thinking.
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I'd like to see a profile photo of you on the bike in riding position. I can't fathom how you can see under the triple clamps with your hands on the handlebars. Can you get someone to take a photo like that?
Tom
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My riding position was developed after closely studying actual photos of Superman in flight.
:-D
Here's the original concept and a pic from the one of the 4 wood mock-ups I made.
I'll post more pics after the foot pegs are done.
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I know it's an overused expression but "thinking outside the box" would seem to apply. This is what I like about landspeed racing where innovation is rewarded. You'll have to have a fairly close fitting front fender to keep the salt out of your face, and at 140 mph you may find those side marking flags disappear quite often (curvature of the earth, you know); I certainly do. If only we could get the old black or blue stripe down the center of the track, I(we) think we would be more comfortable about staying in the center.
Tom
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The front fender design has been on my mind a lot. As you said, it will have to be close so as not to eat up the viewing space. Estimating tire growth is a stumbling block. I'm using Bridgestone Battlax race slicks. 90-580/17. They're small and light so growth shouldn't be too much. I don't really know how to estimate it. To mold the fender I've cut an old BMW airhead 18' front tire in half and will slip it over the tire to make a buck. I've looked thru that opening and it didn't seem too bad. I'm as concerned about my peripheral vision as much as forward vision so I'm intending for the windshield to wrap all the way around. The first build had a helmet fairing with a windshield looking forward only and as soon as I got on it I knew I couldn't ride it. Had to cut it back off. Tunnel vision is not good.
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That fairing, in the video, would be illegal in SCTA. No part of the fairing can extend past the rim in front. Ask me how I know? :-D
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What size tubing are you using? Looks to be 1 1/4 inch chrome moly. Nice design to get yourself lower and out of the wind.
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That's 1" chrome moly. It just looks big because the bike is so small.
BTW, this frame was designed by me but refined and built by Mike at Motorsports Unlimited in Lakewood, Wa. This guy's a truly talented frame builder. Builds mostly drag bike frames. He's a perfectionist but still realistically priced. I'm lucky to have found him. With a few years of practice and $20k worth of shop equipment I think I could be almost as good as him. :roll: :-D
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Small world! I know Mike from racing at Pacific Raceways. Tell him Dan Dahl says hi! I was the guy racing a blue sportster. I almost got one of his frames for my motor, but then life got in the way and I stopped drag racing. You are right, he is amazing at his fabrication skills! You are in good hands with him.
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Hey Sofa
Have a look on the DLRA build diaries--- universal chassis,.
There is a couple of threads with my bikes. The green faired bike is the 80
Bones
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that's awesome, bones!
i just glanced thru it and will study it closely tonight.
the 80cc bike is a different approach than mine but we are thinking alike for sure.
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A line on the ground will disappear faster than "flags" above it due to the "curvature of the earth".
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Hey Sofa
When I have a red hat with the Busa engined bike( hope it doesn't take too long--- only 9mphshort) I will do a
chassis for mt tz250A-reverse cylinder and do some good bodywork.
I think an Earls fork like the Buddfab liner would be good--- maybe 50mm higher than the tire.
I think the Busa would go 220+ with proper bodywork and it needs to be VERY accurate.Where a 250 will not need to be as accurate and I'm
not sure I need to go that fast
At Bonneville a couple of years ago my mate added 10mm to one side of the fairing and it changed the bike from scary at 190 to 230 on the
next run.
My son rides the 80/125 but doesn't ride very often and hasn't learnt to 'ride like you stole it' yet-- so the engine lasts a while.
Will you upgrade to the RS engine later?
cheers Bones
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Hey Sofa
Yep-- rs125 '92
I ran 125 at Gairdner on the stock road race bike-- I'm 6'1 so look a little oversize on it
cheers Bones
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At Bonneville a couple of years ago my mate added 10mm to one side of the fairing and it changed the bike from scary at 190 to 230 on the
next run.
Will you upgrade to the RS engine later?
cheers Bones
explain a little more about that fairing mod, would you?
I never had the RS motor. I don't think it would fit in the new frame anyhow.
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Why such a steep angle on the forks. Ours are 45 deg. You don't need much travel so that gets the headstock lower.
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Why such a steep angle on the forks. Ours are 45 deg. You don't need much travel so that gets the headstock lower.
My view is between the tire and the lower fork tree. Too much caster would make the opening too small.
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The body was not symetrical and wouldn't steer straight.-- working like a wing.
He added to one side and improved it to be more of a symetrical shape
I think the faster you go the more important it is
Bones
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The body was not symetrical and wouldn't steer straight.-- working like a wing.
He added to one side and improved it to be more of a symetrical shape
I think the faster you go the more important it is
I'll sure keep that in mind.
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Hey Sofa
Looks like the inlet is in the cylinder.
If it is you should be able to turn the cylinder around and have the exhaust facing back.
Much easier to make a pipe and a better package overall
I did this on the 80 and the pipe is nearly straight.
Check the photos
Bones
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One step ahead of you! :-D After seeing your pics I decided to check it out. All 3 of my motors are out of my hands so I cant really tell (one at the frame guy's for fitting into the frame and to fit a CR125 reed cage on the KX100 cyl. and the other 2 are at the engine guy's awaiting that cylinder). By looking at the base gaskets I'm a little doubtful. The intake feeds both the top of the piston and the crankcase via a large port so turning the cylinder might not be easy. Sure would solve a lot of fitment problems, though. A 90 degree turn to the right would be perfect. That would put the carb and the pipe outside the frame but still inside the body. 180 degrees would work, too. We'll see.
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A line on the ground will disappear faster than "flags" above it due to the "curvature of the earth".
Hey, Sofa, I don't want to hijack your thread, but I assume Stan Back's comment was in reference to my wishing we had a center line painted on the salt. I just wanted to let Stan know that at Loring, Maine, there is the remnant of an old white center line painted on the asphalt runway. It is exactly what I use to maintain my position on the track relative to the side markers and it does not disappear due to the curvature of the earth (maybe the earth at Loring is flat!). I've never had the pleasure of such a line as they used to paint on the salt, maybe due to the cost of doing so, so I can't comment on that. What I can verify is that the little red flags we had last year at BMST definitely disappear when one has his head down low and is just past one set looking for the next. I've never had the pleasure of driving a roadster on the salt, either.
Tom
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Well, it seems turning the cylinder just isn't going to work. The ports won't line up and there's no way to change them. Would have been cool, though.
Got the foot pegs fabbed up and (mostly) tacked. You know - gotta find that perfect position. Should finish it up this weekend.
Bad camera angles in these pics but you get the idea.
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Small world! I know Mike from racing at Pacific Raceways. Tell him Dan Dahl says hi! I was the guy racing a blue sportster. I almost got one of his frames for my motor, but then life got in the way and I stopped drag racing. You are right, he is amazing at his fabrication skills! You are in good hands with him.
Mike sends a big Hello!
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You do realize that piloting that thing at 140 mph or whatever is not exactly like sitting still on the garage floor, don't you? Get someone, or two people if necessary to pick up the back of the bike about six inches off the floor and drop it about 100 times to try to get the sensation of speed. You might want to at least add some knee cups to try to preserve the otherwise very sensitive parts or your anatomy. I ended up putting the foot pegs up under my hips (not easy to get into) so I could get some leg support.
You'll also probably want a chin support to keep your head up.
Tom
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You do realize that piloting that thing at 140 mph or whatever is not exactly like sitting still on the garage floor, don't you? Get someone, or two people if necessary to pick up the back of the bike about six inches off the floor and drop it about 100 times to try to get the sensation of speed.
Tom
:-D That's funny! Probably true, but funny anyhow.
Yes, I'm anticipating some bruising and a trip to the chiropractor. :roll: But it could be worse............... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8T1Nnmw4hA
That little box under the chin of my helmet will be replaced by support padding. The frame will be padded under my torso and hips. Thigh supports, too.
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You do realize that piloting that thing at 140 mph or whatever is not exactly like sitting still on the garage floor, don't you? Get someone, or two people if necessary to pick up the back of the bike about six inches off the floor and drop it about 100 times to try to get the sensation of speed. You might want to at least add some knee cups to try to preserve the otherwise very sensitive parts or your anatomy. I ended up putting the foot pegs up under my hips (not easy to get into) so I could get some leg support.
You'll also probably want a chin support to keep your head up.
Tom
On a similar note given the elbow/shoulder position in those images just how easy will it be to hold the bike if it goes into a speed wobble?
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Build a small displacement LSR M/C so the rider is in a kneeling position.....low profile....good control......and Yes, I ran the salt when they had the black line.......and Yes, it was better then the flags............................
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The first configuration of the laydown Sportster was similar to what you are planning. I tested before Bonneville and found that I had to move my body forward to have more arm movement. It will be difficult to control with your arms extended.
Joe
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That's why I lay on my back in my sidecar. I didn't want to become a member of the Bolshoi Ballet and wind up dancing the Nutcracker across the salt.
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The first configuration of the laydown Sportster was similar to what you are planning. I tested before Bonneville and found that I had to move my body forward to have more arm movement. It will be difficult to control with your arms extended.
Joe
We'll see. Haven't adjusted the bars yet. They'll be further back.
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The first configuration of the laydown Sportster was similar to what you are planning. I tested before Bonneville and found that I had to move my body forward to have more arm movement. It will be difficult to control with your arms extended.
Joe
Hi Sofa
While my V Twin 250cc APS Bike is not a Lay Down Bike, I set it up with my arms extended and found the same thing as Joe .... it was very unstable and difficult to control ....
Moved myself forward 65mm/2 1/2" and it transformed the Handling/Control ...
I am sure that a small/lighter engine in the Bike means that the Rider position has a greater effect on the Front/Rear Load Distribution than the larger Engined Bikes and therefore the Handling/Rider Control ...
Pete :cheers:
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The original seating position had my arms extended similar to your frame. It limited the leverage I had steering at low speed. It was a bit concerning. It was almost evil. After I moved forward 6" it was like a different bike. I also moved the foot pegs forward which made it easier to use my legs to shift weight. You will need to apply body "English" as speed increases. Tom's bike is about the best balance for a small motor that I have seen.
Joe
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Hey Sofa
I think feet under your hips is a better idea-- but it depends how flexible you are.
With your feet out the back the fairing will be wider and you will also need a huge cutout to be able to see your legs. Bad aero
With your feet under your hips the whole of the tail is faired.
I think you need to be in a position like a road race sidecar-- hey Bak.
You may have restricted ankle movement-- but you only have to change up gears and the brake can be on the handle bars
My mate who rides my bike is not as flexible as me and has to add 4" to the seat height to get his feet on the pegs
cheers Bones
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Hey Sofa
I think feet under your hips is a better idea-- but it depends how flexible you are.
I agree with you guys 110% (especially the aeros). But my flexibility IS the big problem. I can get my knees under my chest but that arches my back which changes the angle of my neck. I've had some vertebrae fused together in my neck so I can't tilt my head back very far. That means I can't see under the lower fork tree (which is the whole design concept).
The foot pegs are still only tacked so I'm not committed to the riding position. I'm thinking the only way I'm going to get my eyes under the fork trees AND my knees under me is to use longer forks. Even if they were, say, 4" longer the overall height would still only be 35". That's acceptable. It would add about 50 sq inches more frontal area but the aerodynamic benefits at the tail would be huge.
I'll work on it today.
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All of this talk about rider position. This is one of the better riding styles out there, and for whatever reason he is faster than everyone else on the same bike
The second picture is poor position on the same bike....sorry Joe
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Jesse, nice comparison in positions.
Don
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Also if you are racing a small displacement or low horse power M/C, it pay not to use a hydraulic disc brake
to much drag.......use drum brake.....or if you are using a disc, use a manual cable operated "caliper" like used on go-karts......no drag.........After all most of the time there is plenty of room to stop...(maybe not on airport run-ways events.... don't know never did LSR on them)
Again small M/C.....ride in a kneeler position....if I had to do it again that is the way to go.....never did build one to ride in that position.....(except in our LSR sidecars)......Live and learn..........................................
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Cliff is lean, very flexible and 21 years old. I am overweight, not flexible and 69 years old. I have to raise my shoulders to compensate for the lack of flexibility in my neck. I can see why he is 3 mph than I am. But he is also 3 mph faster than everyone on their own bike when he rides it. Nice catch on the photos Jesse.
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If you use the fence top rail in the background as a guide you can really appreciate the way Cliff's back is straight and he at least 4" lower than I am. His torso is not resting on the frame which levels his back .... David 's photos are something else. Almost like a training manual.
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Just picked these up on flea-bay. Almost new Bates 2-piece in a drag racing cut (should be perfect). Worn for just one race. Guy swears he never even sweated in them. (I didn't know you could pull the trigger on a 6 second drag bike without sweating! :-o ) He's the same size as me. $255. A good deal I think. No problem passing SCTA tech. I can sell my track suit for that much (darn thing shrank around the waist! :-( )
http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/d/l200/pict/261723909647_1.jpg
Got the frame back and tried the normal "feet/knees under me" position. No can do. Besides lots of pain and not being able to breathe, it puts the width across my knees at 25" which is way too wide. That's OK. It turns out the Kamm tail opening is going to be smaller than I expected so I can live with it. It's good to know that all the time I spent sitting on the can engineering this thing wasn't wasted :-D
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You probably should have parked it somewhere else to take your photo. The writing on the ground isn`t such a great indication of the project and it`s direction.... :-D :evil:
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Ha! Good point! :-o
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An hour ago I sorta came to the same conclusion about having your back level. Forty years ago it was not uncommon to see a rider lift his arse and make his back level on the straight away at fast tracks.
My neck and back are stiff, too. There are some yoga exercises you can do to increase the flexibility in the parts of you that can bend so as to partially offset the stiffness of other areas. Once I get the bike built I go out and sit on it in the race position for a few minutes every day. At first it hurts and is difficult to do. After awhile it gets easier and you will tuck down lower.
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My daughter is in to yoga and says she'll get me straightened out. I have been working on my posture, too. I'm not a slouch but I could be better. The goal is not to have to lift my glasses up higher by taping them to my forehead (folks who wear glasses know what I'm talking about)
From the start, I've had doubts about whether the RS125 forks were going to be long enough to allow me to look over the tire but under the bottom fork tree. Now that I've had a chance to check the front suspension sag and mock up a fender I can see I'm going to need longer forks. I'm headed to the local m/c junkyard today.
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I picked up a set of late 80's Honda 250 Interceptor forks for a reasonable price. The stock RS125 forks are only 24" overall. The Interceptor's are 32". I mounted the new forks and found that an overall length of about 28" works great. Far better forward vision and they increase the caster by 6 degrees. Wheel base increased to 72". Since they're softer sprung, I now have some sag on the front forks, too. No sag at race weight had me a little worried since I had no downward suspension travel.
One of the sliders fits the RS125 axle just fine and the other will work with minor machining.
That still leaves the forks sticking out of the top trees by 4". They'll be sticking into the airstream at that height so that 4" has got to go. I took them apart for cleaning and the first part I found under the end cap was a 4" spacer on top of the springs! Cool! Now I just have to cut 4" off the stanchions, rethread for the caps and put them back together without the spacer. :-)
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Some of us need to look over the top of our glasses when our head is down low. The limiting factor is the brow of the eye port on the helmet.
Years ago I was told to make sure the front fairing gave me frontal coverage when I was on the bike in a position I could actually ride in, rather than one I hope to assume. Experience on rough tracks showed me that I have a hard time when my chest is on the tank. I get bounced around a lot and it is hard to keep balanced to ride in a straight line. The best position for me is with my belly resting on the back of the tank and my chest slightly above it. My head stays relatively stable so I can concentrate on keeping the bike on line.
Rose took pictures of me from the front when I was on the bike. Using those, I sized the fairing so it gave me coverage. My hands, shoulders, etc are all behind it. Only the top of my helmet sticks out above the top of the windshield. The trailing edges of the windshield and fairing were made as close as possible to being parallel to the long axis of the bike where the are broke off of their trailing edges. Now I had a fairing to give me coverage. Fairing surfaces were carefully looked at to minimize those that would give me lift and to maximize the those that would push the front end down.
Not done yet. It was time for fine tuning the front shape and incorporating the tail. This is where the NACA profiles were looked at. The top and sides of the bike have different profiles. The fairing shape was fine tuned to make the best use of a NACA profile. The tail was done last and it followed a NACA shape as far back as it legally could. This is 1/2 the rear wheel rim diameter past the back of the rear tire, for FIM. The front fender was also looked at and shaped to blend in with the front of the fairing.
The front of my fairing looks too be too big. Note on today's post about Erin Hunter the size of the fairing on Andy Sill's bike. Current thinking is to have a good shape and coverage as opposed to a smaller shape with less than optimal coverage.
This might not be the best way to do it, but it worked for me.
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Some of us need to look over the top of our glasses when our head is down low. The limiting factor is the brow of the eye port on the helmet.
Years ago I was told to make sure the front fairing gave me frontal coverage when I was on the bike in a position I could actually ride in, rather than one I hope to assume. Experience on rough tracks showed me that I have a hard time when my chest is on the tank. I get bounced around a lot and it is hard to keep balanced to ride in a straight line. The best position for me is with my belly resting on the back of the tank and my chest slightly above it. My head stays relatively stable so I can concentrate on keeping the bike on line.
Rose took pictures of me from the front when I was on the bike. Using those, I sized the fairing so it gave me coverage. My hands, shoulders, etc are all behind it. Only the top of my helmet sticks out above the top of the windshield. The trailing edges of the windshield and fairing were made as close as possible to being parallel to the long axis of the bike where the are broke off of their trailing edges. Now I had a fairing to give me coverage. Fairing surfaces were carefully looked at to minimize those that would give me lift and to maximize the those that would push the front end down.
Not done yet. It was time for fine tuning the front shape and incorporating the tail. This is where the NACA profiles were looked at. The top and sides of the bike have different profiles. The fairing shape was fine tuned to make the best use of a NACA profile. The tail was done last and it followed a NACA shape as far back as it legally could. This is 1/2 the rear wheel rim diameter past the back of the rear tire, for FIM. The front fender was also looked at and shaped to blend in with the front of the fairing.
The front of my fairing looks too be too big. Note on today's post about Erin Hunter the size of the fairing on Andy Sill's bike. Current thinking is to have a good shape and coverage as opposed to a smaller shape with less than optimal coverage.
This might not be the best way to do it, but it worked for me.
EXACTLY !
One of my goals has been to have textbook aeros. Sill's bike looks big but that's what textbook aeros look like.
I'm almost ready to copy the bike, and then the bike with me on it, onto a sheet of plywood that I have marked in 1" grids. Easy to do with a framing square and a helper. Then I'll draw naca0021 around the bike/rider shape, cut it out and mount it on the bike. Then the fun begins.
https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/ya/download?mid=2%5f0%5f0%5f1%5f183735%5fAERUimIAABA1VLiLzgGGoPyLOVY&m=YaDownload&pid=2&fid=Inbox&inline=1&appid=yahoomail
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The fairing size and shape has to consider the rider. Factory fairings on crotch rockets first consideration is that they are designed to sell motorcycles. Aero is a secondary consideration.
Joe
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I need to wear glasses to see down the road/the course, and I need bifocals so I can read the gauges. So -- if the glasses are correct for seeing where I'm going - the reader part is too far down the lens for me to use it. So I had the eye doc grind the reader parts as high up on the lens as the shop could do them. They were weird for reading - around the house, for instance - but on the bike, head tilted and helmet on and so forth -- wow -- I can read the tachometer! :cheers: :cheers:
Moral of the story: Don't be afraid to ask the doctor or the whomever if you can have something special-made to fit your particular need.
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Back in the 70s there was an English snooker champion by the name of Dennis Taylor. He wore glasses and snooker requires a heads down, eye along the cue type of playing. Not totally dissimilar to what you are doing. He had special frames made so he could see when his head was down level with the cue. Something to think about.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/661/hs95YG.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/idhs95YGj)
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Looks like he just turned them upside down
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Looks like he just turned them upside down
It does but they were special made for him.
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Geez, I thought that was Mrs. Doubtfire!
I knew an electrician that had bi-focals on top and bottom. I've wished I had them many times, especially when working on the boat. I need frames that have a taller viewing area without looking like I'm lost in the 70's (again :roll:)
Started the mapping process today but didn't have a helper to map the rider.
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Geez, I thought that was Mrs. Doubtfire! I need frames that have a taller viewing area without looking like I'm lost in the 70's (again :roll:)
What you look like is irrelevant How fast you go is.
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Thanks for the encouragement. Now I won't feel so bad if I show up with my glasses pulled up and taped to my forehead! :cheers: :-D
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If you should run a record and your crew looks at you and says you look goofy we're not going to impound with you. Find a new crew.
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If I do make it to impound, will I have keep the tape on for final tech? ............................... :evil:
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Yes!! If it makes the inspector giggle then certification will go much smoother.
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Use duct tape ... it is an official AMA motorcycle racing component ...
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I'm finally starting to be able to get some things accomplished.
Got my rear axle shortened and finished the axle adjusters. My buddy Glen cut off the new forks by 4" and made new end caps. I rebuilt them and got them mounted. I still have to drill and tap one of the sliders to accept the larger RS125 front axle.
Today I scored 4 3"x4'x8' sheets of nice, carvable foam off Craigslist for $50. A good deal and they will work great for the body buck.
At long last I was able to get the upper body shape plotted and cut out. My buddy Dave sent me the measurements to mark it onto one inch grids (while vacationing in Malta, no less!). I used a naca-021 shape but narrowed it about 2 1/2". I'll use the same shape for the lower body but it will end with a naca 66-021 type tail because I can't get my knees and feet into the 021 shape. Such is life.
Hopefully, I can get the buck done in about 2 weeks.
There's a faint light at the end of this tunnel.
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Mike ... the light at the end of the tunnel sometimes is a train coming at you. You are doing well, don't rush it.
Joe
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That is typical. There is one shape for the body and front fender in top view in the plane of the axles. There is another shape in top view for the body alone above the front fender. The third shape is the body and front fender in side view.
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making progress...........
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playing with the nose shape........
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Started to get the body ribs installed.
Note spray paint dusted on the back edges of the cockpit form. I was able to get that perfect shape by draping some small ball chain over two nails set at the proper distance apart and then letting it sag down to the desired depth (height). I very lightly dusted it with spray paint to get the outline and cut it out. Kinda' nifty I thought. (I should have been a rocket scientist :roll:)
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(I should have been a rocket scientist :roll:)
Wernher von Braun would approve.
"Out of the box" thinking to solve problems is more important than being able to repeat formulas from memory.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Mike, I like that ball chain idea! that way you get a perfectly symmetrical shape. Good job.
Don
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If you use it, make sure the nails are level.
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where were you looking when you thought of that ??
Great idea
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary) :wink:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary) :wink:
Very interesting. How the heck did you know the word Catenary? :? :-o :-D
Roughed in another nose rib then threw on a rough windshield shape just for planning. I knew I'd have to "wing it" a little here but it's going to work out fine. I'll cut out a better version and use it to make a final rib that will set the shape of the top of the windscreen. I'll use 1/16" Lexan for the final windscreen.
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where were you looking when you thought of that ??
Knowing me, I probably accidentally noticed a long strand of pearls hanging between two of my favorite things! :cheers:
Here's another shot of the windscreen and one of the thigh rests. My kneecap is about where that line is by the axle. Once I'm on it, it's actually very comfortable. I'll have to be careful not to fall asleep. :-D
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Mike, is your bike's snout short enough to comply with the regs? There are limits on how long it can be in many rulebooks.
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Yep, a full inch. I have to keep checking with my framing square because it looks so close.
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Mike, you're putting in a lot of work there.
It looks good. :cheers:
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my college room mate was an architect student & I was a engineering student until I got to integral calculus :-D
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Got the final windscreen shape done today. The silver surround shows the bed that the Lexan will sit on. The black is the view area.
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(I almost have to laugh when I see this :-D)
How to adapt the reed cage from a Honda CR125R onto a Kawasaki KX100 motor.
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Yikes!
My hat is off to Dr. Frankenweldenstein!
:cheers:
F/B
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That's a LOT of ADAPTION :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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Got the lower-mid body shape cut, mounted and "mated" to the upper shape (whew!). I cut and mounted one of the two middle side panels (the only two flat panels on the bike). Note that the body runs all the way up to just behind the forks and the belly will end at a vertical line just behind the front axle. Since the front fender can be an inch wider than the forks (each side) I can make it so it actually overlaps the front lower fairing. The air should have smooth going as it passes from the fender to the lower fairing. That's the theory anyhow.
Tomorrow, I'll be using the "Catenary ball chain technique" (thank you, Roy :-D) to determine the belly shape.
I really enjoy doing this. I call myself an "advanced tinkerer" so this kind of stuff is right up my alley. :cheers:
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first lower-mid side panel.........
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I've finally made a final decision about the paint. :-D :-D :-D
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"advanced tinkerer" ...................... Mike I think you've just come up with a term that fits most of us in many ways. Well done!!!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Had one of those days where I did a whole lot of work but don't have a lot to show for it.
I got the left lower mid panel cut & mounted and put on my first pieces of foam. Man, does this stuff sand easy! Even hand sanding needs a light touch. I made a sanding pad from a 3x21" piece of 1/16" bender board and use 21" sanding belts. It seems to work great. This thing's going to be as round and smooth as Kim K's backside. (and about the same size :-D)
It looked like room to work on the bottom of the belly pan was going to be a problem so I raised the bike 10" off the lift. I cut a triangle of plywood and bolted it on across the rear axle adjusting bolts at the proper height and set the front tire on a cinder block. Both tires are resting on the same straight 2x4 so I can check my clearance. Lots of room to play now!
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Hey Sofa
How did you determine the the shape of the front of the fairing?
Gut feeling--- most of mine is done that way
I haven't been able to come up with a shape that looks like it would be good and be within the rules.
cheers Bones
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Bones, check page 6 of this thread
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After a busy week, and a minor body design change just above the fork tree, I'm making progress. I've been experimenting (not intentionally) with glues to hold my foam blocks in place. Traditional brush-on contact cement in a can seems to work best. Since I can't mate the sides of the blocks perfectly to the wood ribs I've cut them back a little (notice the gaps) and will fill them with spray foam from a can. That will fill any gaps and firm everything up, too. I need to get the horizontal center section in place before I start doing any real shaping.
Speaking of shaping, I found that you can remove the ends from two cheapie Harbor Freight contour gauges ($4.95 ea.) and attach them together. That gives a full 10" gauge. Most of the more expensive 10" models only give a useable 8". Very handy.
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Mike, I tried many glues too and have decided that a hot glue gun with the low melting glue sticks works best. It hardens pretty fast so you can just hold a piece of foam in place for a few seconds and it holds OK. THEN fill in with the spray foam.
Don
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Hey Sofa
When I asked about the shape I was meaning how you cut the fairing to give the correct clearences to meet the rules
for the front wheel visability.
I have thought of a few different ways to meet the rules but all have compromises
I like the BMST rules best--- dustbin fairings are legal
Have you seen Tom Mellor's triumph?
The body is coming along nicely-- I can't wait to see it finished.
cheers Bones
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Hey Sofa
When I asked about the shape I was meaning how you cut the fairing to give the correct clearences to meet the rules
for the front wheel visability.
I have thought of a few different ways to meet the rules but all have compromises
Bones I'm going to forward an e-mail to you that may be of interest. Watch for it from "knuhcsm".
"progress pics"..............
The seating (laying?) area is done. Most of that flat surface won't be there when done but it's an easy way to get the body even with the frame. I plotted out the shape on particle board and attached it to the bottom of the top frame rails. Since the frame is all 1'' tube all I had to do was glue 1" foam insulation board on top of that and trim to shape. Everything's nice and level. Eeeeeezy-peezy. It's also easy to sand for the rounded corners. I've covered it all with aluminum duct tape since the resins like to eat that kind of foam. Before the glass goes on I'll cover the entire buck with aluminum tape. Fortunately, it's cheap.
2nd pic; with the middle section filled in I can actually start to see where this is going. I'm going to hold off on the final shaping until all the basic shapes are in place to assure everything looks right and flows together. I only have one chance to get it right.
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You're doing a great job.
It looks pro.
A word of advice, Epoxy resin doesn't eat any kind of foam.
Polyesters have Styrene which eats stuff.
All in all, that is a really neat piece and looks right.
For someone tackling what is not your day job I applaud you. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Thanks. I know it would be stronger and lighter with epoxy but then I couldn't use mat. I'm not skilled enough to use cloth over all these compound curves. All the light colored foam I'm using isn't eaten by epoxy but the pink 1" stuff is. Either way, I still have to cover it all with the alum. tape so it will release.
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finally realized why this bike looks so familiar..........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXLPFqdLPKY
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I hear you and understand your sentiments.
Remember that you don't have to use cloth in one big piece.
You can cut manageable size pieces. Do a little test on the flat areas.
If you're worried about the ends unraveling/fraying just spray some
3M 77 adhesive along the cut line before.
If weight is the enemy then cloth/Epoxy is your friend.
From the photos your skill is way better than you think.
Trust me, I say you can do it. :cheers:
Mike.
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Got the right side belly shaped up today. I'll wait to get the other side shaped before I do the final sanding and alum. tape skin.
I guess I made a (bad) decision at some point not to use ribs to establish the bottom shape. I'm paying for it now.
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Mike, make a great investment in a plastic contour gauge.
Eastwood sells them.
Mine is a blue one but I don't see it on their site.
I bought it in 97.
If you're working with composites I don't care what you buy,
this tool will be the best by far.
It will change your life. Get the longest one if possible. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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You're right. Ive got one. Dont think I could do this without it. I'd sure like to find one that was deeper, though.
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The brown packing tape works good as a release. Nothing seams to stick to it and the 3M 77 spray also works great to glue the foam together.
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The brown packing tape works good as a release. Nothing seams to stick to it and the 3M 77 spray also works great to glue the foam together.
Thanks John. I tried the 3m 77 and others but the large foam panels weren't perfectly flat enough to get large contact areas. Good old roll on contact cement did the trick. Holy adequate ventilaton, Batman!!
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I have used Liquid Nails when assembling a plug ... you cannot get it near the edges as it sets up pretty hard and tough to shape ...
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Liquid nails............wish I'd thought of that.
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You're right. Ive got one. Dont think I could do this without it. I'd sure like to find one that was deeper, though.
That is the only draw back. I use it in full, mark the area halfway on both the gauge and plug. Then do the same on cardboard.
Move the gauge starting at the mark and reset. Then transfer to the cardboard and cut a template/profile.
I think you're probably doing something similar anyway. :wink:
This stuff isn't easy but the rewards are awesome. You're doing great. I'm subscribed. :-D :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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On wood ribs and panels in the boats I've restored, I've always just used a compass (or any old stick with a marker taped to it) to copy shapes. That way I can sand my way down to a perfect fit. Can't do that here because one "oops" and it's all over. :-D Besides, these contour gauges are so much easier.
http://hostedmedia.reimanpub.com/TFH/Step-By-Step/FH02NOV_SCRIBI_10.JPG
BTW, one neat thing about this old technique is that you can substitute a rod of almost any length for the compass. On my current boat I had to copy the shape of one of the hull ribs below deck and couldn't get the plywood I was copying onto closer than about 36" from the rib. The rib section was about 40" tall. I just taped a marker at the 36" mark of a stick and copied it. You just have to keep the stick (compass) at a constant level the whole way.
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I got the belly pan done today and used foam in a can to fill the openings around all my foam blocks. No matter how hard you try, you can't control that stuff. It's just a gooey mess. Fortunately it cuts to shape easily and it really locked in the blocks. Looks weird, huh?
I'm going to have to paint this foam before I can apply the aluminum tape. The tape won't hold on this type of foam. :-(
The paint marks are where I checked both sides with the contour gauge. I got both sides to match at those lines and then sanded any imperfections down to the paint lines. The sides are as close to symmetrical as I'm ever going to get them.
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Hey Sofa
Don't let the finished plug stand in the sun.
The spray foam has much more air in it and it will blister.
I used the same method using surfboard foam and spray foam with a layer of body filler to give a smooth surface.
While I was talking to the fiberglass guy the plug blistered all over. I assume from the air expanding in the foam.
cheers Bones
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Good advice Bones. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Hey Mike, the Spray 77 is OK with Poly but remember you need very little.
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These tips are great, guys.
I always say I may not know much - but I know who to ask! :cheers:
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Got the top fairing sanded to final shape. :-D
I shaped and rough sanded the section between the top fairing and the bottom. That curve in the pic, and how it's going to mesh with the front fender, is the only part of this build that I haven't been able to see in my head (you know, while I'm sitting on the can planning all this :roll:). Now that I can see it in the flesh it seems to be coming out well and should be slippery. The taper stops at that curved mark. I'd like to hear any opinions on this, please.
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I don't really understand what you're getting at about the curve
but what you've done so far is as professional a job as I've seen.
It will come to you.
Pro job Mike. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Sofa
You're doing it wrong ( sitting on the can )
You need the special thinking stool and a beer and sit and look at the bike--- eventually it will tell you what is needed :-D
Some times it takes a few beers
With the latest picture and the email I think you are on a winner
Are you going to use a water tank or a radiator?
Bones
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Sofa
You're doing it wrong ( sitting on the can )
You need the special thinking stool and a beer and sit and look at the bike--- eventually it will tell you what is needed :-D
Some times it takes a few beers
With the latest picture and the email I think you are on a winner
Are you going to use a water tank or a radiator?
Bones
Yep, a milk crate works for me
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I can't really tell where your head will be when you're in riding position, but from your post # 43, it looks like the front of your helmet is just about in line with a vertical line at the back of the front wheel. Are you sure your bodywork is not going to enclose part of your head, which is not permitted? And the further back you position your body and head, the less peripheral vision you will have which can get confusing at speed. Otherwise, it looks like you've nailed the perfect shape so far.
Tom
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One thing that you do not hear too much about is the streamlining of the front and rear wheel spokes. Yours are pretty small so maybe they are OK, but it takes a lot of power to overcome the air drag when they are spinning fast. I have thought about putting some sort of airfoil shape on my Hayabusa wheels because the spokes are big and round, absolutely the worst shape for aero. It is something to consider to get that extra 1/10th of a MPH.
Don
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I can't really tell where your head will be when you're in riding position, but from your post # 43, it looks like the front of your helmet is just about in line with a vertical line at the back of the front wheel. Are you sure your bodywork is not going to enclose part of your head, which is not permitted? And the further back you position your body and head, the less peripheral vision you will have which can get confusing at speed. Otherwise, it looks like you've nailed the perfect shape so far.
Tom
You've got sharp eyes, Tom. The top fairing will end two inches in front of what you see now. I just placed that form there to get the shape.
Any comments about the aeros in that curved area under the upper fairing?
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Are you going to use a water tank or a radiator?
Bones
Another unanswered question :-D
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Sofa
You're doing it wrong ( sitting on the can )
You need the special thinking stool and a beer and sit and look at the bike--- eventually it will tell you what is needed :-D
Some times it takes a few beers
With the latest picture and the email I think you are on a winner
Are you going to use a water tank or a radiator?
Bones
I used to build custom HD bikes. The first won a show beating out 200 others.
Customers arrived wanting different designs. I'd used up all I had on the first one.
All the others were called Tequila Design. Same stool deal and after a while the outrageous came thick and fast.
OK guys, I don't do that anymore. :-D
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One thing that you do not hear too much about is the streamlining of the front and rear wheel spokes. Yours are pretty small so maybe they are OK, but it takes a lot of power to overcome the air drag when they are spinning fast. I have thought about putting some sort of airfoil shape on my Hayabusa wheels because the spokes are big and round, absolutely the worst shape for aero. It is something to consider to get that extra 1/10th of a MPH.
Don
I've given that some thought and haven't come up with anything good. If you looked at a cross section of one of my spokes it would be a "C" shape with the open part alternating left & right every other spoke. If I were to fill the open part it would only make the spoke fatter. I still think about discs over the rear wheel but I can't put them high on my priority list right now. Last fall I expected to be testing the bike in April but that's never going to happen. I'll probably be wrenching on this until the night before I leave for the salt.
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That's racing Mike.
If it wasn't for the 11th hour nothing would get done. :-D
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Finally got the front 2/3s of the buck done to where I could primer that super soft foam. That should make it easy to do a light color sanding
.
I made a little stand to set a helmet on. Now I can really see how it's shaping up. My head, and the rear of the fairing, will actually be about 4" further forward when done.
While using a belt sander to make the fairing a little narrower in front of my helmet I touched the foam. :cry: :cry: :cry:. I'm going to fill it with drywall mud. It's the only thing I can think of that will sand really easily. I could fill it after the glass is on but I really want to keep Bondo to a minimum. Darn it!
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Mike, with the amount of work you're putting in you deserve a record.
This is intense stuff. Man, I'm impressed. This is what LSR is about
although I haven't raced yet.
Buy some fairing paste from a supplier that sells composites.
It sands easier than Bondo by a long shot.
It was developed for the type work you're doing.
Your attention to detail will pay off. :cheers:
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Have you made sure you can move the handlebars lock-to-lock with your hands and forearms in place? I ended up bumping my fairing out to be able to do so without hitting the fairing - - twice! Better to find out now than after your fairing is made.
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Thanks, Tauruck. It keeps me off the streets and out of trouble.
Koncrete kid - yeah, I did the same on the last build, too. On this one, the bulbous nose is giving me more room around the handle bars.
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I taped on a front fender shape and figured out how I'm going make it flow with the fairing and still be able to have fork travel and rotation. I never could picture it in my head. As soon as I put that pink shape on it all became clear.
Also got started with the aluminum tape. Wooohooo - shiney! :-D
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Love the front fender! With the top part of the wheel covered the lower part is not as critical as its' speed relative to air speed actually goes to zero at the point of contact with the salt. Very neat!!!
Rex
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Sofa, that is looking great! :cheers: I would love to see what the CD is in a wind tunnel. It sure is going to be slippery!
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Thanks, guys. Yeah, I'd love to see it in a wind tunnel too but it's never going to happen. The only things left in my budget for this year are Speed Week and my daughter's wedding. Both in August. I'll be eating lots of top ramen this fall. :-(
Didn't get a whole lot done today. Got the bike and lift turned around to start on the tail section (not an easy job in my little shop) and made a new stand to allow me to work on the tail. I ran some 7/16 threaded rod thru a frame tube and then thru some braces. (have you checked the price of threaded rod lately?!! :-o) Works good and makes the back end wide open. Lots of work to do back there.
I'm waiting for a response from SCTA tech or I would have finished taping the nose. I sent a pic in for approval yesterday. I haven't seen another bike with a front end like this so figured I'd better get an OK before going any further. Shouldn't be any problems. (fingers crossed)
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I heard back from SCTA tech and he said the nose and fender were fine but the rest of the fairing was illegal ! :-o :-o :?
That was a real shocker. I can only assume it's because he wasn't seeing any arm openings. Everything else is straight out of the rulebook. I e-mailed back to assure him they'll be put in after the basic body shape is done. (the buck's framework keeps me from getting my arms in there)
I'm sure that's the case but, for now, the anxiety is killing me.
Anyone else see anything wrong with this fairing? I've re-read 7.G.11 of the rulebook about 20 times. :?
I've spent all week on the tail section (well, 3 hours after work every night). Lots of fitting around the bike and fitting me on it. This requires a custom fit and it's a tough one when my eyes and arms are at the other end of the bike. Somewhere there's someone with a 3D scanner and milling machine that could make a mold for this in a snap. I doubt we will ever meet. :-D
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The unfortunate part is no matter what we see or how we see it we are not inspectors. But please get it sorted before you head for the salt. Having had the experience of arriving on the salt and the inspector says "That's illegal" and having to make on the salt mods to make the inspector happy (not to mention pass tech so I could run) its best to get it sorted before you go.
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:-D :-D :-D
I heard from tech and his concern was the lack of arm openings so I'll mark the proposed openings on the buck and send him a pic.
What a relief.
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Front half is ready for glass.
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Heading towards the tail section. Lots of details. My friends accuse me of being overly anal. I hope it pays off.
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I've got the leg supports done. I've been stalled for days since I don't have anyone to mark the forms while I'm on the bike.
I had the frame builder over this morning to offer some tips and insights on mounting the body. I've never mounted anything with Dzus fasteners before. He made nice comments about the build which was reassuring since he's built many Pro-Mod drag bikes and knows his stuff. If he didn't like something he would have said so.
The pink foam in the pics is the shape of the upper tail fairing. Viewed from above, the shape will cover half my legs from one foot all the way around my butt & down to the other foot. (Think "turtle shell"). Tricky to do since it's got to be snug to keep air from under it but I still need to get my legs in & out.
Glad this is almost done since this foam is really dusty and I'm tired of the mess! I'm off this week and should start on the glass on Tuesday. Hopefully, I can have the body off the buck by next weekend.
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The amount of work and attention to detail is unbelievable.
Mike, you've outdone yourself.
You deserve a record. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Thanks.
Hope everything is shaping up for you again.
I deed to ask for some advice. Gonna send you a PM.
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Mike, how did you get on?.
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Mike, how did you get on?.
I hope to be starting the glass Tuesday. Thanks for the tip about tinting the resin. :cheers: It's really hard to tell one layer from the other.
A while back you suggested using a little spray contact cement to hold the pieces in place before applying resin. Doesn't that make it hard to remove the piece from the plug? Does the resin "neutralize" the glue?
I got some good measurements today (Thanks, Don!) and the tail section is now all glued in place and any gaps have been filled with spray foam. Should be ready for glass Tuesday. :-D
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Spray 77 is better used on a cloth fabric/Epoxy application.
I wouldn't waste it on Poly. You'll be using release agent on the silver tape right???.
I'm challenging you to just go out and try a sample Epoxy cloth matrix.
I'm sure your local supplier will give you a free lesson.
It's as easy as "Bull Slap", remember?.
It will change your life. :lol: :lol: :lol:
The difference between the breaking record is Poly vs Epoxy!!!!!!!
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Mike, I've done several boat repairs with epoxy and it's the sharp corners that give me fits. I'm going the wimpy route with poly and mat. I noticed there's a mat out now that can be used with epoxy but I can't get it locally and I need to get this done while I've got the week off.
Made good progress today but won't be ready for glass tomorrow. Too many final prep things to do. Masking, release wax, etc. Most of all I need to clean the shop!!
Top & center pics; Finished the "turtle shell" over my legs and the tail cone. I've started the bump for rear tire clearance. That bump will end in a horizontal fence at the rear of the tail cone. I figure it will add a little stability (except in crosswinds) and look kinda' coolish. :evil:
Bottom pic; The full side profile is visible now. I'll cut the tail cone off at 10" after the body and wheel is mounted. Add an inch for the front fender and it's going to come in right on the money at 107" overall (Yayyy! Something actually came out like I planned it !!)
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Mike, the aero guys often make the comment that "it's not how an object enters the air, it's how it leaves it". It seems to me that you've worked rather hard to disturb the air as little as possible the full length of the bike. I would think the horizontal fence at the rear of the bike, especially seeing as how you're dealing with limited horsepower, might nullify all of the work you've done further forward. I'm certainly no aero expert, but I'd certainly look into it before you go stirring up the air at the back.
Pete
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Mike, the aero guys often make the comment that "it's not how an object enters the air, it's how it leaves it". It seems to me that you've worked rather hard to disturb the air as little as possible the full length of the bike. I would think the horizontal fence at the rear of the bike, especially seeing as how you're dealing with limited horsepower, might nullify all of the work you've done further forward. I'm certainly no aero expert, but I'd certainly look into it before you go stirring up the air at the back.
Pete
Thanks, Pete. I can't describe this fence (fin) in words so after it's built I'll post some detailed pics. I'd appreciate some comments then because I'm no aero expert either. I can always change or remove it. The important thing is that it ends up as slippery as possible.
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Mike,
I am really intrigued by your body build, it has gotten me to completely rethink how I am going to "eventually" build the body for my lakester. Once you get the plug all taped and start laying some glass what is your plan for getting the body off of the plug?
Really neat project. I will be watching your build very closely.
Rex
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A Sawz-all, 12" channel loks, small prybar and a 2lb sledge should do it.
There will be 4 body sections. Nose, sides/belly and tail (cut vertically below the rear axle).
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I tell you this...... I have who I rate "great friends" in the US and hopefully I'll get to visit them God Willing
but my first stop will be Tacoma.
My mission???? To get Mike off the sofa and get high on a little Epoxy. 8-)
You're doing an awesome job but you need to take a chance now and then.
You're a biker. :-D :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Mike, he'll be like a reformed smoker. Once you get him switched over everyone who even thinks about using polyester will be sooooo wrong. You may be creating a monster. :-D :-D :-D
Mike in Tacoma, keep up the great work. Your project's coming out amazing no matter what you use. You are an artist. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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So I made that cool tailfin/tire bump and it turned out great!
I hated it and cut it back off.
I made a nice smooth hump that ends about 2" before the Kamm tail. Much better in every way.
I got started on the glassing today. Got two layers over the whole thing except the belly (ran out of energy). Next I'll roll on a thin coat of primer filler to seal the surface so it can be sanded. Then a few areas of bondo (quite a few, actually) and another layer of glass. Then I'll slop on a couple heavy coats of primer filler for final sanding. That stuff is like paintable bondo and real easy to sand. It works great. It should - it's 94 bucks a gallon!
BTW, there's no way in the world I could have done this with epoxy and cloth. Trust me. My design skills are OK but my application skills - not so much.
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more pics............
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You just keep getting better.
You're Blessed and just keep going!!!.
Awesome stuff Mike.
I'm thinking a chrome type paint job will seal the deal. :cheers: :-D
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one more...........
(yardstick shown for comparison)
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You just keep getting better.
You're Blessed and just keep going!!!.
Awesome stuff Mike.
I'm thinking a chrome type paint job will seal the deal. :cheers: :-D
Nope - no spare cash. I'm sticking with the (cheap) Gulf Racing baby blue with orange belly and stripes. Done with a roller. :-D
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Mike, I'm impressed. I think you under estimate your talents. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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I think what Mike is doing is amazing and I have no doubt that he will get his record this year. What you may not know is that he is doing all of this in about a 10'x12' space - 1/2 of a storage unit in a marina. So he has to have his build table, work bench, tools, supplies, materials not to mention the BIKE all in the space of 1/2 of a one car garage. He supplements his electrical requirements with a generator.
The other half of the storage unit is for his toys such as a gorgeous red Ducati and other bikes.
Don
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Wow, that really has come out nice.
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Mike, I'm impressed. I think you under estimate your talents. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
You said it Pete!!!!!!.
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I think what Mike is doing is............. other half of the storage unit is for his toys such as a gorgeous red Ducati and other bikes.
Don
Thank you, Don.
Seems to me you could use more shop space, too. We make do with what we have.
I'm posting a pic of the Duc because I'm worried she may be feeling a little ignored lately (you know those Italian women :roll: ). She's a pristine 1996 900 SS/SP. Topping out at only 143 she's not a modern superbike but she's got all the good stuff, feels & handles great and makes all the right noises. Always gets nice compliments. She's my little baby. And she's RED! :-D
I got all the base glassing done today. I'll primer it tomorrow. I'm pleased.
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I've spent the past two nights reading this thread. I'm still just getting into all this and haven't started building anything yet.( Construction sites are slow and a separation. Soap opera) You're bike is an inspiration and looks fantastic. I don't know about the rest of the members on here, but it looks pretty cool with all the aluminum tape on it. Looks like aluminum bodywork. Keep the pictures coming and thank you. I'm learning a lot from all of the builders and competitors.
Bill.
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Good day - bad day.
I got a coat of primer on and cut & removed the tail section so I could fit the wheel back on. After digging all the foam out I went to remount the tail and found the tire hump was way too small. I don't know how I screwed this up. I do know that building that hump without the tire in place to guide me was a deviation from my plan. I should know better. It's going to take all week after work to re-do this. :cry: :x
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It looks good Mike although I feel for you on the little mistake.
If you have clecos, some strips of 1" wide Ally and a reciprocating saw you
can sort that small issue in place.
That's the cool thing about composites. :wink:
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Mike, the change /adjustment to tail might possibly be one of those "blessing in disguises"
I honestly don't know how much of an effect the tail has on bikes, no certain how effective or in effective they are at reducing drag and or increasing stability
But...you will be adding surface area to the rear, and raising it, hopefully it helps with the air coming off you and the front of the bike
I think its common to assume it will help, but as with most assumptions it's a crap shoot imo, until proven out, there are a lot of bikes that are very stable with minimal tails, and nearly naked, and many bikes that are struggle with swoopy body's
At any rate, many find some gain in speed when butt raised a bit, your adjustment in height will be near that region, so hopefully this helps, you may consider an assortment of removable tail fin configurations that can be readily swapped out in your quest to find more speed
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Well, Joe, you may be right about the blessing in disguise. We'll see. This re-do is bringing me back to how it was supposed to be in the first place.
The multiple tail sections will have to wait for another year. I've got a list of things to do as long as your arm and the clock is ticking.
Today after work I cut off that tire hump and cut an old 180/60 - 17 rear tire in half to slip over my little rear tire for the correct shape and clearance. I'll have plenty of room now. Fairing it in will be a challenge. I'm thinking I'll hot glue both ends of 1/16th welding rods to the surface of the tail and let them bow around the dummy tire naturally. That should give a nice smooth shape. That's the plan, anyhow. For now. Maybe. :| :-D
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i wasnt suggesting multiple tails....only multiple fins, in case you had remorse or wondering about
the effect of going without the first one
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Joea, I believe you were right about the blessing in disguise. The new framework I've made is better and it's what I had planned in the first place.
I used 1/16" aluminum welding rod to make a "birdcage" around the dummy tire. I let the rod make it's own bow shape and it came out really well. Only problem is that the rod is so easily bendable I don't think I can tape directly over it without damaging the shape. Steel rod would have been better but I had the alum. laying around. I plan to wet out some 1" strips of glass cloth and just drape them over it to get some structural strength before I apply the skin. I thought of using paper mache' but I'm worried it might turn to mush when I try to lay on the glass.
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Mike, it doesn't appear that you've allowed for tire growth. It's an unfortunate fact even at relatively low speeds. You may want to check that out before you redo that glass. It would be a shame to have to do it again after the body was completed. Then again, are racing vehicles of any sort ever completed if they're serious? :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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The tire you can see is the old street tire I cut and slipped over the real tire. I also put little half inch blocks between them for more clearance. I'll have over an inch clearance above the race tire when done.
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Mike, if you lay wetted cloth over the wires you will have to do a lot of filling to get it smooth (as you know). Why not use your spray foam to fill in the gaps between the wires and then sand to the wires, then do your aluminum tape trick?
Don
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Mike, if you lay wetted cloth over the wires you will have to do a lot of filling to get it smooth (as you know). Why not use your spray foam to fill in the gaps between the wires and then sand to the wires, then do your aluminum tape trick?
Don
Yeah, I think you're right, Don. If I go acros the rods I'll link them together without disturbing them.
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Put duct tape or masking tape over the wires first and then glass it.
Take a more diagonal route, less sag.
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I did the foam thing yesterday and it worked well. I found that the technique is to hold the nozzle perpendicular and about 1" or so from the surface. That way the foam catches on the rods and then surrounds the rods as it expands. I sprayed the foam in single strips about 4" apart. After letting that expand and cure about an hour I shot more foam into the remaining gaps (about 1"). I came back today and trimmed it all down to the wires with my Fein tool and foil taped it. Nice and sturdy. :-D I'll glass it tomorrow.
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Awesome job Mike. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Awesome job Mike. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I was thinking the same thing. You did a really nice job of blending the shapes.
Pete
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Thanks. Actually the rods did all the work. I can recommend this method when there's no good way to support the body form. Use steel rods, though. Despite that, I'm not very happy with the whole top of the tail section but it will have to wait for next winter to be changed. (always gotta' have a project :-D )
Me and the belt sander went at it hot & heavy today! There's a few thin spots and burn-thrus but I've been planning to do some reinforcing from the backside anyhow - so no biggie. All in all, I'm real happy with it. When I got to the lower sections I rolled the bike on it's side to make things easier. :evil:
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Today I got to do a little of the fun stuff - rippin' and tearin'! :-D :-D
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Weird feeling tearing up all the hard work hey Mike?. :-D
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Weird feeling tearing up all the hard work hey Mike?. :-D
Actually, it's a relief knowing the hardest part is over. There's lots left to do but the basic shape is there so it's all downhill from here.
I've cut the rear edge of the front fairing back to just shy of its final position and marked the final cut lines to remove it from the bike. After agonizing for an hour about the best place to cut, I finally just made my cut line where it looked OK. I've found that the easiest way to mark lines around curved shapes is to use 1/4" tape to establish the line, dust it with spray paint and cut on the paint line. I'll be cutting on the top line of the tape. Note the red alignment marks. Before I remove the lower fairings from the buck I'm going to glass in some panel alignment flaps from the inside. Last time I used metal tabs to hold two panels together and in place. They worked OK but not very "pro".
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You're a natural.
I really enjoy every post.
The only advice I have is to bond any metal bits to the glass with a good Epoxy adhesive
even if you're bolting or riveting. :cheers:
Use peel rivets where you can but not where you could have body contact.
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Mike, got any Dzeus fastener tips?
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They work great but I'm not crazy about them. Too many iffy little bits.
For road course I'd say go for it but for LSR go the route Carbonite (Rob Frey)
took. He used coarse thread CS machine screws. Simpler and better.
Just my opinion though. Check it out.
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Well I learned something new. I did not know what you meant by peel rivets so I looked them up. I did not know there was such a thing. For my fiberglass bodywork I had been using pop-rivets a lot, but peel-rivets have more bearing surface for the fiberglass. I will get some and see how they work.
Thanks for the tip Tauruck!
Don
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:-o those peel rivets are great. Theres a video on YouTube.
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Glad I could help someone. :cheers:
I feel so good now.
I'm happy for you man.
Those normal rivets are nowhere when it comes to plastics. :wink:
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Peel rivets are great....The "new type" F-1 road racing sidecars use a main center structure made out of square Moly and alum. plating........Peel rivets hold it all together...............works great with no problems....have used them for years..............don't buy the "cheap'" ones, get the good ones..............
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Peel rivets are good but I prefer Avex rivets with a back-up washer for fastening fiberglass.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Neil, we all love your aviation skills and components.
You should start a thread in the tech section for us
showing how to use and what is best used where.
That would be awesome. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
We'd all benefit from your knowledge.
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They work great but I'm not crazy about them. Too many iffy little bits.
For road course I'd say go for it but for LSR go the route Carbonite (Rob Frey)
took. He used coarse thread CS machine screws. Simpler and better.
Just my opinion though. Check it out.
Others have said this, too.
Probably best to go this route because it's easy, cheap and complies with the KISS rule.
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I certainly agree with Neal regarding using Avex rivets with a properly sized washer for fiberglass. Makes a lot neater job and the Avex rivet will pull things together very well. I am not sure that using counter sunk screws is a good way to secure panels that are installed and removed alot. I still prefer Dzus fastners, if you use the flat head style with the long under cut you can install the fastener through the panel and then slip a small "O" ring, I like to use viton material, over the fastener and it will retain the fastener to the panel. I worked on several GTP cars, Lola T600 and Indy cars, March 83G, that had a lot of panels retained with flat head screws and you soon found that you needed to have your 10-28 or 10-32 tap in your pocket to fix the threads that you screw up trying to get the fastener in, and you also spend a lot of time putting a taper on the screws so they can find the thread.
Rex
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Thanks all. There's a very well stocked industrial fastener company just two miles from my shop. I'm going to go check out all my options.
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I certainly agree with Neal regarding using Avex rivets with a properly sized washer for fiberglass. Makes a lot neater job and the Avex rivet will pull things together very well. I am not sure that using counter sunk screws is a good way to secure panels that are installed and removed alot. I still prefer Dzus fastners, if you use the flat head style with the long under cut you can install the fastener through the panel and then slip a small "O" ring, I like to use viton material, over the fastener and it will retain the fastener to the panel. I worked on several GTP cars, Lola T600 and Indy cars, March 83G, that had a lot of panels retained with flat head screws and you soon found that you needed to have your 10-28 or 10-32 tap in your pocket to fix the threads that you screw up trying to get the fastener in, and you also spend a lot of time putting a taper on the screws so they can find the thread.
Rex
x2
When I was at Cooke/Woods-Cooke Racing, these fastening methods on the T600 & T610 drove the mechanics nuts!! And lots of replacing "stripped" inserts, what a pain in the a**.
Too bad the arrogant designers didn't have to work on their cars . . . . . .
Fordboy
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............the carnage continues.
I'll be re-glassing some thin areas and reinforcing a couple others from the inside this weekend. I'm rough sanding those areas for a good bond and, let me tell ya', sanding on the inside of these lightweight, curvy fiberglass pieces is a MAJOR PITA! :-(. I've found that coarse 5" round, velcro-backed orbital sander paper on one of those little triangle "mouse" sanders to be the weapon of choice. Works pretty good on the insides of corners but it's still a PITA.
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PITA is the governing body of all things composite. :-D
I'm not sure if this tweak works with Polyester but check it out.
It works with Epoxy. Get some Brown Vinegar and mix it with 10% warm water.
Wash the parts repeatedly, wiping vigorously and then let them stand for 1 hour.
Wash off with clean water and you should be able to laminate the next layers without sanding.
Like I said, it works with Epoxy but I hope for your sake it does for Polly.
Let me know.
Mike.
BTW, well done brother. You're a star. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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I love/hate composites! You are using the same idea with the foam and aluminum tape I have stolen from someone in my past, works great. Sanding the insides of the parts are always a problem, but the end results are worth it when runnin on salt. The stuff is easy to clean, doesn't rust or dent (within reason), is light (usually) and you can do complex shapes much easier than metal. :-D The fastening thing can be done a bunch of ways and Hartwell makes great aircraft latches (costly unless surplus). Dzus bought a company, Southco that makes some pretty clever fasteners and latches. They make some fast leadscrew captive fasteners that may have some use, here is a link to their site,
http://www.southco.com/en-us/09-12-17?hid=7346&filters=
Check out their line, there is a great structual panel latch they make that could make a engine cover into a structual component, link here:
http://www.southco.com/en-us/r2-r5
One of the uses for this latch is for assembling radar domes and some helicopter pieces I think. We used them as a production part for clamping guitar case sides and they worked well indeed.
You, and others are doing some great composite pieces, congrats! :cheers:
Matt Guzzetta
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Thanks, Matt, but I think I'm just going to keep it simple on the fasteners. Most all will be easily accessible from both sides using both hands so I'll just use non-captive rubber well nuts and truss head machine screws. They screw down easy by hand and never come loose. I have plenty on hand and it's not another day long project.
I finished up my reinforcements on the inside of the body yesterday and made the final cut to position the rear edge of the upper fairing. The tail is now cut to the final length, too.
I rolled it outside so I could see it for the first time from more than 6 feet away. :-)
The pink foam board over the front tire is the proposed fender.
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Congratulations Mike.
You've done an awesome job in record time under lousy conditions.
Two of my favourites standing together. a 2 stroke race bike and a Ducati.
You're an inspiration IMHO. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Low speed and stopping can be an issue with laydown bikes. Make sure you can get your legs and feet out of the cutouts easily. I found this to be a problem as you approach stopping. I ride an open lay bike and found this to be a concern.
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Low speed and stopping can be an issue with laydown bikes. Make sure you can get your legs and feet out of the cutouts easily. I found this to be a problem as you approach stopping. I ride an open lay bike and found this to be a concern.
Got it. Ive built in a horizontal ledge behind the openings so I cant get my legs caught between the frame and fairings. I dont like falling down. :-D
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I dig it Sofa! :cheers:
I am planning on using your foam idea to smooth out the buck I made for my front end. I just hope my 'glass work turns out as good as yours did!
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I dig it Sofa! :cheers:
I am planning on using your foam idea to smooth out the buck I made for my front end. I just hope my 'glass work turns out as good as yours did!
If you're talking about spray foam in cans, be aware the it doesn't sand easy like the foam blocks/ sheets. It has a more rubbery consistency. I found it easiest to cut it to shape with a razor knife. I use the ones that have the snap-off sections. You get a 4" blade that way. With a little practice you'll get pretty darn good at it. Also, don't try to fill large areas with it. The outside will cure leaving the insides an uncured and gooey mess. The stuff cures with moisture so I spritz it with water to make it cure faster. When I don't finish off a can, I lay the can on it's side and shoot out a small ball of the stuff and leave the tube and can stuck in it undisturbed. After that ball cures you can store it for weeks, pull off the ball, pull off the tube and run a coat hanger thru it to push out any cured stuff and you're good to go. The stuff is cheap but gets expensive if you just use a little and then throw the rest away. The canned foam works really good for locking the foam pieces together.
Also, I found a spray contact glue that doesn't eat any foam - Elmers Fast Tack. Bonds in 15 seconds, too.
Be sure to cover your buck completely so no resin gets to (and eats!) the foam. I use that aluminum tape because it seals really well, is super sticky, holds it's own shape and will lay down super flat if you rub it with something (like the side of a magic marker). When they built the Buddfab streamliner body they covered their foam with 3 coats of gloss latex house paint, release waxed it and laid their glass right over it! :-o I don't have the nerve to try it. :-D
Good luck. :cheers:
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I put a coat of 2 part primer filler on after work so I could gauge the overall situation of the body. All looks good so I'm going to leave the final finishing until it gets mounted (hopefully next week).
While sitting there watching the primer dry I finally came up with a good plan (I hope) to easily mount the windshield flush with the body. Not as easily done as one might think. Anyway, it needs to wait until everything else is hard mounted.
I'll get started on the front fender tomorrow.
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Mike,
I am SOOOO impressed with the way your body has turned out, looking at the outer finish it really is pretty smooth and a little bondo and some sanding it will be super. I am pretty much a "metal beater" kind of guy but after watching your build I am really considering going with glass on my lakester. Can't wait to see it finished at the salt.
On the windshield are you planning to form some .06 alum strips then bond/pop rivet to the inside of the opening so that you can attach the windshield to it? I would think that 1/16 lexan would be more than thick enough and much easier to work with.
Rex
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Wow, that body is coming along nicely! Are you using a bubble windscreen, or are you going to do a flat wrap? If you can mount the windscreen flush in the cutout you could just glass a strip behind it and have a perfect fit. :-D We did that on the Don's (Vesco) liner to get a flush fit. It is also possible with a flat wrap to make a dummy and add a lip to the outside to get the fit flush against the outside skin and then you can do a glass edge on the backside to fit. There is a bunch of different ways to do the flush fit, whatever you are most comfortable with will work! You are doing a great job in a short time, congrats!
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Thanks, guys.
The windshield will be a 1/16 Lexan wrap (cheap and easy) and probably held with truss head screws with nylon washers and rubber well nuts from the back (just screwed on by hand not set into the body). It will have a little "give" to it that way. To make it flush I'm going to sand the upper and lower mounting surfaces, as you see them now, until they are perfectly aligned (to avoid any waviness in the Lexan). Then mask off and mount the shield. Then bring the body surface up to the level of the shield with a layer of glass mat that feathers into the surface of the nose (scissor cut on one edge, torn on the other) . A quick sanding and a skim coat of Bondo and that should be it. Sure beats trying to set the shield down to the body level.
Sound like a plan?
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Sounds like a plan! With only a 1/16 inch thickness, it will work easier than if you had to fit a bubble.
Looking good, I love the small streamlined stuff! :-D
Matt Guzzetta
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I wrapped a 100' extension cord around the front wheel. This will give about 5/16 clearance all around the tire so the rest of the front fender should go pretty easy. Took 2 hours! A new PITA benchmark!
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In my opinion, you'll need to make a curved tool that you can use between the fender and the tire to clean out the salt, that is if you can make a full run before the tire binds due to the salt build-up.
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glad I saw this...............
I've spoken with people running less clearance than this with no problems.
Has this been an issue for you?
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Mike, I don't know how 5/16" clearance will work but I do know 3/4" has worked for us in less than desirable conditions.
Don
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On dry salt 5/16" clearance should be OK. If the salt is damp it could prove to be a problem. You don't want to do this.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/203/3xyh.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/5n3xyhj)
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Whether you have 1/4" clearance or 1 foot clearance the salt will still pack the fender until it reaches the tire. As Nortonist shows, wet salt will pack the fender and there is not much you can do about it.
Don
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(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/203/3xyh.jpg)[/URL]
Interesting picture.
Would there be that much if that shroud didn't have a bottom?
How come there's no salt packed around the rear tire?
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Whether you have 1/4" clearance or 1 foot clearance the salt will still pack the fender until it reaches the tire. As Nortonist shows, wet salt will pack the fender and there is not much you can do about it.
Don
I should have asked you this the other day. Even if the salt starts to pack the fender, doesn't the spinning tire wear the salt enough to maintain a clearance?
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Would there be that much if that shroud didn't have a bottom?
How come there's no salt packed around the rear tire?
It did pack somewhat but not enough to cause problem. I made three runs with the wheel fairing on and got the same result each time. I left it off and it stayed relatively clean. I have about 3/4" clearance on the front fender and it packed solid but the wheel turned. There also was about 30 lbs. of salt in the nose fairing after each run. The front wheel is a 10" Austin Mini. About a week after I got home I took the front fender off and the tire tread pattern was perfect in the salt, Much like a female mold. I blame the wet salt so much packing.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/801/i9hk.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/m9i9hkj)
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Got the fender plug done today. Lots of detail work around the tops of the fork sliders. Glassing this will take a little time. It's oversized right now so it can be trimmed to final size and shape when done. The big "ear" looking things are there because I was too lazy to cut them off and figured they might be helpful in making the plug (they weren't). The curved white shape at right is some 1/2" insulation I used to set clearance for the rear of the fender. I covered that with a flexible 4 1/2" wide piece of flat fiberglass left from the last build. It's hard to see in the pic but it stops about 2" from the ground. I added a 2" wide strip of 1/2" foam down the center and will glass over it while bonding to the flat strip. That foam will become part of the fender and should make for a really rigid piece when done. It's more of a really stiff mud flap. Total standoff from the tire will be about 1 3/8" (must be less than 1 3/4"). I've covered about 260 degrees of the wheel/tire but since the mud flap part doesn't cover the tire from the side I'm way inside the tire visibility rules.
Since I've covered most of the tire's circumference I'm hoping that flat part is going to allow me to wiggle and twist the whole thing around the tire enough to get it off! :roll: :-D :-D I'm going to have to make a removable fender strut going to the mud flap.
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The front wheel is a 10" Austin Mini.
HA HA HA HA HA
I take it you've experienced the joy of changing a Mini tire on a conventional tire machine.
HA HA HA HA HA
(just kidding. i've owned 4 early Minis. :-D :cheers: )
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The front wheel is a 10" Austin Mini.
HA HA HA HA HA
I take it you've experienced the joy of changing a Mini tire on a conventional tire machine.
HA HA HA HA HA
(just kidding. i've owned 4 early Minis. :-D :cheers: )
[/quote]
The joys of changing a tire. The joys of a busted fanbelt in the middle of nowhere. And the ultimate joy of changing that little water hose between the head and the block without lifting the head. Love your bike. When I made my body and fairings I used aluminum foil as a release "agent". But your aluminum tape idea is brilliant. The best of luck. Are you going to SoeedWeek or BMST?
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Speed Week this year. First, I want to play with the same group I was reading about in Hot Rod magazine over 50 years ago. Looking forward to meeting lots of cool people from this forum.
BMST next year. The possibility of a world record is pretty darn enticing!
(oh crap! ANOTHER bodywork project! :-( )
Have to have a bike with a motor in it first! :evil:
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Mike,
It's probably true that no matter how much clearance you have, the salt will accumulate. I've never had a problem but we cleared the salt out regularly just to be sure. It might be a good idea to make sure the rear edge of the fender is the closest to the tire as opposed to decreasing clearance as it approaches the front.
Tom
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I may come up with some kind of wiper at the bottom of the mudflap to keep a little of the salt out in the first place. We'll see.
Here's some pics of the rough fender as it was coming off. I've cut the bottom to proper height (at the silver tape) but left the nose uncut because I didn't want to slice into that $40 extension cord I wrapped the tire with :roll:. I didn't cut the back either and it's a good thing. I ended up beating up and forward on both areas with a small sledge. Man, what a battle getting this thing off the plug! One of those things that requires force but not too much force. (you know - the ones where you find out what "too much force" was when you break the part!). Took me two hours!
The ridge down the mud flap really stiffened it up. Still going to need a brace, though.
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Someone needs to do something here on the forum.
There should be a trophy of sorts awarded to the member of the month or year or whatever.
There are guys doing some awesome work outside of their comfort zone, I mean stuff they have not studied or trained for.
This forum is awesome and inhabited by awesome members and I vote for Sofadriver as "Man of the month".
Dude, you're the embodiment of what LSR is all about. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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I went to Home Depot to buy some aluminum tape and they said it was on back order. Mike bought all the inventory.
Don
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Someone needs to do something here on the forum.
There should be a trophy of sorts awarded to the member of the month or year or whatever.
There are guys doing some awesome work outside of their comfort zone, I mean stuff they have not studied or trained for.
This forum is awesome and inhabited by awesome members and I vote for Sofadriver as "Man of the month".
Dude, you're the embodiment of what LSR is all about. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Mike (Sofadriver) definitely gets my vote too!!!! What a great job.
Mike, regarding using force I have a saying that you have probably heard:
"If it won't go, force it, if it breaks it needed to be replaced anyway!"
Rex
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I second, or third, or whatever that! :cheers:
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What kind of releasing agent are you using, do you use any PVA (Poly Vinyl A-something) on the mold? It is the green stuff that you either spray on or brush on. It is alcohol based and is a good barrier for polyester resin and maybe for epoxy, but I am not sure. You wax the material when it dries, or not and lay up on the mold. The material is water soluble so when you take the part off you just wash the green stuff that is still on the part with soap and water.
Keep up the work, looking good!
Matt Guzzetta
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Well, thanks Mike, but I'm just fooling around with a little motorcycle and some fiberglass. Guys building 33' long streamliners from scratch all by themselves deserve awards. Or guys who survive 200mph motorcycle crashes and then come home and make plans to build something even faster! Or guys who've spent years refining little sports cars to go way faster than their little agricultural engines were ever meant to go.
I like keeping this build diary up to date. It's a good way to chart my progress and get new ideas. And I get to see all the innovative things that other people are up to. The cool thing about this forum is that most everybody "gets it".
Anyhow...........today I got to see what's only been in my imagination for two years. The front fender blending with the body. I try to explain this to people and usually get blank stares. Nice to see it in the flesh. I have to fit the upper fairing yet.
Gettin' close.
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What kind of releasing agent are you using, do you use any PVA (Poly Vinyl A-something) on the mold? It is the green stuff that you either spray on or brush on. It is alcohol based and is a good barrier for polyester resin and maybe for epoxy, but I am not sure. You wax the material when it dries, or not and lay up on the mold. The material is water soluble so when you take the part off you just wash the green stuff that is still on the part with soap and water.
Keep up the work, looking good!
Matt Guzzetta
I've got some PVA but have never used it. I don't really know why. The problem here was the fender wrapping so far around the wheel and the tops of the fork sliders, too. Now that it's been trimmed and the mold parts are gone it's (almost) easy to get it over the wheel.
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Awesome job Mike. :cheers:
Just touching on what Matt said about PVA release agent.
Will you be making any molds or are all the parts one off?.
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It's a one-off so no plans for molds now but if I run BMST rules next year I might need to.
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Always good to have a spare set of body work at the track for in case.
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Always good to have a spare set of body work at the track for in case.
Isnt that what duct tape is for? :-D
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A lot of sanding went into getting that fender smooth. Bet your skin is itching like all hell.
Joe
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Isnt that what duct tape is for? grin
Just ask Nascar guys :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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I'm going back to Mike/Tauruck's post about awarding the builder of the month or something. We used to do something like that - really. That is, when we made the Salt Talks t-shirts we'd feature the best/most commented upon vehicles of the previous year or so. It was our way of giving them some extra accolades for their good work. We quit doing that when it became obvious that the shirts were not selling well enough to pay for themselves. Nowadays I've been auctioning the places on the shirts. The three or four highest bidders get to place their vehicle (or, within reason) just about anything they want on the shirt. No, we won't run with Freud's bare butt again nor the crew mooning the camera woman (Nancy would take the photos - - but might be ill directly after, you see :evil:).
Anyway, I'd be happy to go back to putting great builds on the shirts - if I could find a way to monetise the shirts enough that we'd profit a bit for the site. As it is now we can make a bit of money because we create the shirts in our laser and design shop, and that cuts costs down massively. But we then need to sell more than half of them, like we unfortunately often do, to make a real profit. And that is with our shop doing all of the work for free. If you really, really want the fine builds on the shirt -- find us some big bucks and we'll do that, okay?
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A lot of sanding went into getting that fender smooth. Bet your skin is itching like all hell.
Joe
I wear a Tyvex suit with elastic cuffs for sanding. They're awesome. For the fender I just used a random orbital sander hooked up to my wet & dry vacuum. There was almost no dust at all.
Good progress today. Got the upper fairing cut to fit and properly cut the windshield opening shape. There's still some final trimming but I'll wait until the body gets mounted for that.
From the side it looks like there's a pretty big gap between the fender and fairing. From an angle you can see the fender overlapping the fairing. From the front the air should just see one long, smooth shape. (I hope)
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Been doing lots of detail work on the body. Trimming, sanding and some light Bondo stuff. Almost done but have to finish up the arm openings I cut today. Bottom pic is the final trim (painted red to show the tech committee). Then another coat of primer filler and final sanding. I think I recall having said "should be ready for paint next week" about a month ago. :roll:
I got the Harbor Freight trailer I bought assembled, wired and registered. http://www.harborfreight.com/1195-lb-capacity-48-inch-x-96-inch-heavy-duty-foldable-utility-trailer-with-12-inch-wheels-90154.html (Hey, COOL! It was only $279 last week when I bought mine. :-) ). Repacked the bearings with better grease today. The trailer wiring kit I bought for the van was defective so I have to wait for the replacement to get here before I can use it.
It's always something.
Still waiting on the motor. Feeling lots of anxiety.
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After weeks of 12hr days at work and the rest of the time working on the bike, I'm pretty burnt out. Took the evening off from the bike.
Motor guy called last week and said it's almost done and "man, this thing is gonna rock and roll!". COOL !
Now I can't get hold of him again. :x :-(
Lots of bits on order. Many more to be fabricated. Supposed to get started on that stuff this weekend (fingers crossed).
Paint plans have changed. Going back to the old Safety Yellow Rustoleum. I'm just not going to have time to prep for a spiffy paint job. It's a race bike after all, not a show bike. And a really nice paint job will pretty much guarantee I'll drop it at or before Speedweek. :roll: Besides, I've already got it and the bills for my daughters wedding are starting to come due. ( I'm bleedin' money here. )
Ready for paint..........
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You did it!!!!.
Mike, that is one cool looking bike.
Way to go brother.
You underestimate your God given talents. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Mike, I've got to admit I was concerned when you started to tear apart the last bike. My concerns were totally unfounded. Very well done Sir! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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thanks guys, but remember - there's still nothing in it! :-(
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Nothing in IT???.
I think you put everything into it. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Whew!
Today, I feel like a huge weight has been taken off me. My engine will be ready this week. No further delays. It only needs the power valve in the exhaust port welded up and out of the way. I actually saw it (not an easy thing) and I'll say one thing, the guy's an effin' artist! Slow maybe but very meticulous.
With two months of work to do after I get the motor (and there are only two months left) I was really starting to sweat it.
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That's great news. Glad it's just about ready. I know what you mean about time. I keep finding things that will need to be done and look at the calendar and flinch. :-o
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Whew!
Today, I feel like a huge weight has been taken off me. My engine will be ready this week. No further delays. It only needs the power valve in the exhaust port welded up and out of the way. I actually saw it (not an easy thing) and I'll say one thing, the guy's an effin' artist! Slow maybe but very meticulous.
With two months of work to do after I get the motor (and there are only two months left) I was really starting to sweat it.
Time is an illusion, lunchtime: doubly so.
I think I am on track this year (although two bikes is a bigger challenge than I was anticipating). You seem to be in better shape. :cheers:
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Haven't been around much lately. I'm on Wi-Fi here and they can't seem to get their act together.
Crunch time is officially here with less than 2 months until Speedweek. Looking back I can't believe I was so naïve as to think I'd be dyno testing by April back when I started this last September. :-(. I've got the week off and it's the last I'll have before leaving so the big stuff has to get done this week.
Got the intake tract all done today. That's a big step because the engine can't be positioned until the carb is positioned. (The Lectron carb is darn near as big as the motor!) Tomorrow we should be able to get the engine mounted and the expansion chamber turned 180 degrees so it exits out the front. Hopefully, the body will get mounted Thursday and then it should all be downhill. (remember the part about thinking I'd be dyno testing by April? :roll:)
Found out there's an SCTA tech inspector not far from me who can do a "tech for class" inspection of the bike. That would sure be a load off my mind.
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Awesome Mike, sounds like its coming along. That 2 month mark really sneaks up on you. If you don't already have a tuner you should check out Nel's 2 Wheel Dynoworks in Woodinville. Mine will be hitting his dyno this afternoon.
BTW, I have been meaning to tell you, your body work looks phenomenal. You do some great work!
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Mike,
I recommend Nels portable dyno too. He tuned the power commander for my turbo ZX-10 and does a great job.
Don
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FYI, Nels is going to be down tuning at Redline in Tacoma tomorrow if you are ready it could e worth checking out. He makes fairly frequent trips down there so you can probably line it up for next time he is there if needed.
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Thanks for the heads up guys but my builder/tuner is an ex Honda factory Grand Prix mechanic, has run at Bonneville (held a small displacement record I think) and was Freddie Spencer's builder & tuner back in the day. The Hayden family are his friends and little Nicky and Tommy would come over and climb on the race bikes and make vroom-vroom noises. He just built a motor that won a flat track championship at Daytona. He's now the service manager at a large m/c dealership and has his own little "skunkworks" with a dyno in their warehouse. He built this motor so I figure I'm in pretty good hands as far as tuning goes.
Got the motor in today so the rest of the build is (finally! ) in motion. :-D :-D :-D
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Mike, that slide carb is way too cool!!!!.
This build is RIGHT. 100% winning stuff.
The record is history, all we need to hear is by how much?.
Just my opinion. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Way to go. You're Blessed that's for sure.
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Sounds like you will have no problem at all with the tuning then. Cant wait to see how it goes. What's the new goal for having it running?
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Hey Mike
What size is the carb?
It looks BIG
Bones
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Hey Mike
What size is the carb?
It looks BIG
Bones
I have been through this many times. Carb "looks" too big. How does it run on test? OK? Good? Make more bhp? etc, etc, etc . . . . . . .
Give the engine "what it wants", as long as the tq and bhp are "driveable". Oh, BTW, this means different things to different people.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Hi, Bones. Yeah, the carb looks huge but it's just a 34mm. The reed box we made to mount the 125 reeds makes the carb stick out another inch, too.
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Got a lot done this week but there's still a lot left. Can't get anyone to feel the urgency here.
Done; handlebars, Dzus plates mounted for body and body mounted, front fender mounted, steering stabilizer.
Kinda' done; engine mounts (tacked), expansion chamber turned 180deg (still need to cut it again to adjust angle), controls fitted.
Yet to do; exhaust stinger, shift linkage, steering stops, all electrical, mount tail section, cut fuel tank to fit and move spigot, paint, windshield, dyno testing. (there's more I'm sure)
Getting ready for the dyno is now the #1 priority. A local nice SCTA tech guy has offered to do a "tech for class" inspection. That's another priority.
I may show up for Speedweek still in primer. :roll:
Pics are; the Harbor Freight trailer (folds to fit against the wall of the shop), cool-ish lower fender mount, controls being test fitted.
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What? Show up at SpeedWeek in primer? How gauche! You'd be the first-ever racer to do that. :roll:
It's looking great -- and you're not as far behind where you "should" be as you might think. Keep at it and thanks for letting us in on the fun.
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Might have paint after all. Had to change welders. The slow pace (and a lot more ) was making me nuts. The new guy's much faster and we think alike. Looks like it'll be done by this weekend. Have to cut out and redo some of the other guys work. I'm not happy with it.
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Finding the right welder is a big issue and I understand your frustration.
Happy to hear you got the thing sorted.
Your bike looks right and they say if it does it goes right too (not direction wise). :-D
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If your not happy, your not CONFIDENT :wink:
Good welds save lives :-) :-) :-)
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Mike I wanted to ask about the "pipe" and where it ends up?.
I know why you built it the way it is. :wink:
Thanks.
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If your not happy, your not CONFIDENT :wink:
Good welds save lives :-) :-) :-)
Yeah especially when I'm paying for them. The guy just wont listen. Check these rear motor mounts that I have to cut out.......WTF??!! Glad I stopped him when I did.
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Mike I wanted to ask about the "pipe" and where it ends up?.
I know why you built it the way it is. :wink:
Thanks.
l
I needed a stinger that was exactly 15" long and .74" ID. A tremendous challenge for the other welder. The new guy spent about 2 minutes in his junk pile and came up with a set of handlebars from a kids tricycle. .74" ! Welded 2 of the bends together and aimed it out the side. Voila'. Perfect! Took about half an hour. And it's chrome! :cheers: :-D
It exits straight out the side about 6" below my right elbow. Good ear plugs will be a must!
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I had a feeling you'd want earplugs. :-D
Were those mounts supposed to be finished as it appears?.
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Hey Fordboy
I didn't say the carb looked too big
I was just asking what size carb he is using-- 2strokes like big carbs.
My 80 cc uses a 34mm and my 125 uses a 38 or 39mm
I'm going to miss seeing Sofa run as I won't be at Speed Week- I will be at BMST and WoS.
Good luck
Bones
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Hey Mike, are you referring to the welder who did your frame or another welder? Also I see from the pic that it looks like the mount is welded to a saddle that is hose-clamped to the frame cross member. Was that his idea of the finished mount? Hard to tell how it is supposed to be from the photo.
Don
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Hey Fordboy
I didn't say the carb looked too big
Bones,
You are right, I stand corrected. My apologies as well.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Were those mounts supposed to be finished as it appears?.
They were only tacked but, yeah, that was his idea of fancy motor mounts. :x Pretty good seat mounts though. (if there was a seat!)
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Finally got some internet service again. Been down for over a month. Didn't realize how much I rely on it.
Lots of progress this last week. Mostly deciding mounting locations, adding tabs, etc. All the welding should be done tomorrow. Might be ready to fire this weekend. I've got a dyno appointment in 8 days so the push is on.
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OK, so this little goof-up is kinda my fault. Never describe what you want to a welder without discussing the size of the finished work first.
These adjustable steering stops are huge! :-o
I had to start laughing when I saw them. Definitely going to be strong enough!
They'll made good conversation starters and probably changed the weight distribution for the better. :-D
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It looks great Mike. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
You can't operate without the internet these days. :evil:
I'm expecting big things from you man.
That's a race machine of note.
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Who says those fork stops are too big? I've seen at least one wrecked bike at Bonneville with the steering damper ripped right off the frame because the stops were not sufficient. My fork tubes actually hit the upper frame tubes - - beat that for positive stops!
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You can't operate without the internet these days. :evil:
I get a whole lot more done without it
Nice work Mike. I like it
G
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First start-up (and first time putting a vid on YouTube). Much more to do but at least it's ready for the dyno next Saturday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRD-lEuzXM0
Learned a lot today......
-it's really easy to overfill the gas tank.
-to make the build easier I used regular nuts on all the motor mounts and should have installed the ny-lock nuts before start-up (they all fell off - note engine moving around)
-version one of my dual hand crank starter is useless (good design - poor choice of materials)
-starting it is hard since I can't reach the throttle and kick it at the same time.
-no matter how long you kick it, it's not going to start with the handlebar kill switch off :roll:
-I still love the smell of castor oil and race gas :-D
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It looks good. A lot of innovative engineering, for sure.
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You wanna try assembling a Harley without Loctite. :-D :-D :-D
You're right about the smell of castor oil and race gas. :cheers: :cheers:
The other stuff is small potatoes. To be expected. You've aced the difficult stuff and that's what counts.
BTW, I like the stinger.
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Got the bike on the dyno today. I expected a lot more power. Despite some big mods it didn't make much more than the first motor. 21rwhp. That's on a DynoJet and I don't know the manufacturer of the dyno the first engine ran on. It was still pulling hard at 14000rpm, though. That's a big improvement. I can't complain too much. That's comparable to a 1000cc carbureted, unblown sport bike making 210rwhp. I guess there are limits. I've gone back to a regular water pump (had an electric pump before but didn't trust it) and that's draining a little power. On the other hand, after the longest pull the head was still only warm and EGT went to 1150 degrees and stayed there. I'll settle for a little less power than expected and an un-fried motor, thank you.
With 17/35 sprockets it ran 152mph but with so little power I'll never be able to pull those gears on the salt. I'll try a 16t front sprocket and see how it does.
There's a big dip in power at about 11000rpm. It loses about 10% but then rebounds and holds steady thru 14k. I'm going to send a copy of the printouts off to Lectron Carbs for their advice. I doubt it's going to rebound like that on the salt.
I wish decibels were horsepower. Holy cow!! :-o
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Got the bike on the dyno today. I expected a lot more power. Despite some big mods it didn't make much more than the first motor. 21rwhp. That's on a DynoJet and I don't know the manufacturer of the dyno the first engine ran on. It was still pulling hard at 14000rpm, though. That's a big improvement. I can't complain too much. That's comparable to a 1000cc carbureted, unblown sport bike making 210rwhp. I guess there are limits. I've gone back to a regular water pump (had an electric pump before but didn't trust it) and that's draining a little power. On the other hand, after the longest pull the head was still only warm and EGT went to 1150 degrees and stayed there. I'll settle for a little less power than expected and an un-fried motor, thank you.
With 17/35 sprockets it ran 152mph but with so little power I'll never be able to pull those gears on the salt. I'll try a 16t front sprocket and see how it does.
There's a big dip in power at about 11000rpm. It loses about 10% but then rebounds and holds steady thru 14k. I'm going to send a copy of the printouts off to Lectron Carbs for their advice. I doubt it's going to rebound like that on the salt.
I wish decibels were horsepower. Holy cow!! :-o
In 2013 the Milwaukee Midget had a 1/2 hp dip in the bhp curve just before anticipated peak speed rpm, ~7800/7900. It was fine in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, but it would not pull out of the "dip" in 4th, limiting the top speed by 3/4 mph we guesstimate. We worked hard to add a few bhp overall and get the "dip" out for 2014. (2 days on the dyno . . . .) Worked out well in the end . . . . . :-D as the engine would "pull" past the previous "stall" rpm. All those "little details" matter.
When power available = the total drag, you are done, and that is the top speed for that setup. There is a lack of power to accelerate the vehicle further.
Less power, un-fried motor, . . . . . . . always a wise choice in my world . . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Mike,
Have you ever thought of using a Helmholtz resonator tuned to your 11000 rpm engine speed to fill the HP drop at that rpm? I am sure that you, being a two stroke guy, remember the mid 80 Yamaha YZ dirt bikes all carried a "boost bottle" that was used to help fill in the the HP curve. They are pretty straight forward and being tuned for 11000 rpm (11 kilohertz) would not be very large, the size of the connecting tube between the resonator and the intake tract is part of the calculation, but it would be pretty simple to make one that you could vary the volume of that would enable you to exactly tune it to your desired rpm. The Helmholtz resonator concept is what make the air boxes of many of the late model Japanese performance bikes so effective.
Rex
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Good idea, Rex, but too late in the game to try it now.
I think I've found the problem. Lectrons use a flat sided fuel needle that allows fuel to climb up the back side of the needle. My needle was turned about 45 degrees to one side. That correction will probably make it richer but the dyno budget is now at zero so I'll never know for sure if that was it. Lectron told me to shorten the intake as much as I could, too, so I shortened it all I could (about 3/16")
You can see the problem starting at about 12000rpm below. (shown by the arrows on the bottom pic)
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Do you have a reed valve?
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Mike,
Have you ever thought of using a Helmholtz resonator tuned to your 11000 rpm engine speed to fill the HP drop at that rpm? I am sure that you, being a two stroke guy, remember the mid 80 Yamaha YZ dirt bikes all carried a "boost bottle" that was used to help fill in the the HP curve. They are pretty straight forward and being tuned for 11000 rpm (11 kilohertz) would not be very large, the size of the connecting tube between the resonator and the intake tract is part of the calculation, but it would be pretty simple to make one that you could vary the volume of that would enable you to exactly tune it to your desired rpm. The Helmholtz resonator concept is what make the air boxes of many of the late model Japanese performance bikes so effective.
Rex
One mistake with this statement an engine running 11000 rpm is turning at 183 Hertz. Hertz are cycles per second.
Marc
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Mike, don't laugh.
Short story. I was running a kid in a 125cc shifter kart and he was blowing everyone away even though being a rookie.
A current SA champ's father in another class asked what my secret was. I joked it was the Royal Purple 2 stroke oil. I'd always used RP.
The guy bought a case from me and took his kid's kart to the dyno. They did back to back tests and similar to your graphs the RP test leveled out at high RPM where the other oil dropped off. Cheap solution, try the Royal Purple. Not sure what you'll gain but you won't lose anything. :cheers:
Don't ask me why and how the Royal Purple works but it does. That other kid is Wesleigh Orr, 4 time ROK world champion.
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It is all in the pipe on a two stroke. If the pipe was designed was for a MX bike it would be perfect.
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" One mistake with this statement an engine running 11000 rpm is turning at 183 Hertz. Hertz are cycles per second."
Marc
Marc, Thanks for catching that, it was either to early in the morning or to late at night, I don't remember which. Helmholtz resonator still could be a good thing to do.
Rex
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Mike
I fitted Lectrons to my Suzuki RGV 250 based Bike (V Twin Reed Valve/Crankcase Induction 2 Stroke) and they take a bit to get used to ... but worth it ...
Set the slide height and leave them alone ... tune everything in the lower end, including idle, off the Metering Rod (aka needle) once that is running clean you should not have to change it until you make changes to the engine ...
Then use the Power Jet for the Top end and any further tweeking
As makr says the pipe plays a critical role in determining your powerband ....
A few other things I have found when sorting out my Tune ....
Make sure the Carb is well supported and cannot vibrate too much ....
Having an Air Box is essential so the Carb gets still air to draw from ...
I have fitted a Zeeltronic "ECU" ... it has a CDI built in and allows you to control the Ignition Timing and the Exhaust Power Valve opening ....
By having adjustment on these two things you can juggle the Jetting/Ignition/Power Valve and maximise the Pipe ...
Exhaust Power Valves are often overlooked and having them working does make a difference in extending the influence of the Pipe ...
Trouble is each engine responds differently and getting it sorted takes time ...
But for this year run it a bit rich, get the Riding/Handling stuff sorted and have fun
Pete :cheers:
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The modern Triumph Bonnevilles have a Helmholz resonator plate in the air box. It functions just like folks on this thread says it should. It provides resonance at critical frequencies to smooth out the torque curve. The concept works.
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Mike,
Looking at your BMEP (Brake Mean Effective Pressure) I come up with around 144 psi which is not bad but remember that when the GP class was 500 cc two strokes they had a BMEP of over 210 PSI, again they were rotary valve two strokes with lots of electronics that you don't have but they did make over 250 HP! I would certainly expect your BMEP to be in the 160+ area which would give you HP in the 23-24 hp range. An I agree with Marc that most of the extra HP will be found in the expansion chamber. Lots of volume fairly steep angles on both expansion cone and exit cone. This of course makes the engine have a much narrower power range but HP is what makes you go fast. What design did you base your expansion chamber design on?
Rex
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But for this year run it a bit rich, get the Riding/Handling stuff sorted and have fun
Pete :cheers:
Thats the plan.
I'm just trying to get it ready for Speedweek now. Lots of little things plus paint & windscreen. I'm still working 12hrs every day and getting pretty burnt out.
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Looks like I'm going to try for BMST now that SW is canx. My fairings will be illegal there so I'll run in Open class. Might run the fairings in runwhatyoubrung but, at this late date, that would bring my entry fees up to $1000. :-o Sure would be nice to know how well they work.
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Look at Scooter's pix for the 2014 speed trials on www.scootershoots.com. Note that there are lots of bikes running with front wheels shrouded by the fairing like yours.
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Look at Scooter's pix for the 2014 speed trials on www.scootershoots.com. Note that there are lots of bikes running with front wheels shrouded by the fairing like yours.
Nope, not like mine. BMST won't let you cover the wheel below the axle.
Thanks for all the tuning tips, guys. Those will be winter projects. I've been thinking about what the first and 2nd motors have in common. #2 should make gobs more power but that's not the case. The timing's the same (used the same cases and never messed with the timing plate). Ignitions' the same. The pipe is the same but cut and turned to face forward with a new stinger that's 12x as long as the i.d. of the head pipe and the i.d. is almost exactly 59% of the head pipe (1/16" smaller than #1 ........ all textbook stuff). I'm wondering if having my EGT probe inserted too far into the pipe could be causing some sort of wave resistance. It's too late to re-dyno it now but I'm going to move it so there's only about 1/4' in the pipe. Can't hurt.
Been making lots of good progress but changing rules for BMST has taken lots of time. Realized the other day that I didn't have 10" between my thumbs so have to make new bars, etc., etc. I made up number plates and frame tabs, built leg cradles and a butt plate to keep my nether regions from rubbing on the rear tire (nasty scenario there!). Shock mounted my spiffy new tach and EGT gauges. And much more. BTW, I'm pretty jazzed about this tach. 16k rpm, super easy to read, temperature gauge (with sensor) and programmable, built in warning/shift lights. It's really a quality unit. Gave it 9volts, hooked a wire to the coil and I was good to go. $179 from Schnitts Racing (I suspect that's one guy working out of his garage but ........ more power to him).
Oh yeah. Finally painted it. (still have to add the black pinstripes that separate the colors). I ordered two GULF stickers on flea bay. Real retro. Maybe some really rich guy will invite me over to take some pics next to his Lemans winning Porsche 917. (ughh - yeah, right)
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pics...........
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and more.........
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It looks great Mike.
Wish you lots of success.
You deserve it. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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I hope your not camera-shy..............lots of pics WILL be taken of this baby :-D
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I love it! Looks great sofa! And by the way, Thanks to you and Mike for the fiberglass tips!
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I love it! Looks great sofa! And by the way, Thanks to you and Mike for the fiberglass tips!
Thanks guys.
Mike has the knowledge. I just wing it.
Still have lots to do.
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Mike, you never winged a thing!!!!.
That's some serious work you did and in short time too.
You're gifted and I'm glad you never wasted the talent.
:cheers:
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Thanks, Mike.
It appears I'm all dressed up with nowhere to go.
I spent a couple of weeks crossing over to BMST rules and then came the bad news last Monday.
This is just a big SUCK ! :cry:
I'm going to press on with the build anyhow. One of my (many) personality flaws is that I just won't quit. This will be the badass-est 100cc APS bike ever built even if it never turns a wheel.
Here's some pics of her all ready to go......................
(Note the exhaust pipe out of position - the result of the 4 or 5 falls I took while learning the proper launch technique. Fortunately, I've only got a few inches to fall :-D. All were at 1-2mph! I've got it down pat now, though.
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and more..........
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BTW, I moved my vacation time to make BMST but I can't move it again. Now I've got a week off with nothing to do.
So, what the hell, I think I'm going to load up the bike and head to what's left of the salt just for pics.
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Beautiful bike!
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Thank you!
Quite a compliment coming from you!! Your bike is awesome! :cheers:
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Mike, the situation does suck and it pains me to see all the hard work put into all the projects, yours and others only to have the rug pulled.
That bike needs to go on a road show, be at auto shows etc. It needs to be seen.
Art is for everybody. You're an artist. It's original, well built and just plain awesome.
Things have a way of working out. Be positive and keep the faith. Trust me, the wheel does turn. :cheers:
BTW, I had I ride on my buddy's 350? 2 stroke Husky yesterday. Loved the feel, the sound etc but it wasn't my old semi works RM125A. All I can say is he has great brakes. :-D :-D :-D :-D
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Thanks, I am thinking of building a APS as well, maybe for 2017, not sure if I will use glass or aluminum. Your paint scheme looks professional, I always loved the Gulf colors.
Don't you wanna bring it to El Mirage in November, it is a 2-3 day event.
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Don't you wanna bring it to El Mirage in November, it is a 2-3 day event.
Sure! I'd love to, but my vacation days can't be changed any more. Besides there's the whole club membership thing and it's a 3100 mile round trip for a 2 day event.
That makes me wonder about my little bike's future (and mine). Besides Bonneville, there's no place else that's practical to go to. I was on the salt yesterday and it was a pretty sad scene. Land's end would turn into a quagmire in no time if a big event were to be held. 100' out, the salt's only an inch thick. It's a sad situation.
Anyhow, here's some bike pics from Sunday morning..............
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Mike, the bike looks awesome! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Don't give up on the salt yet. I have a feeling Mother Nature may have a few surprises up her sleeve yet plus I think the situation over the last couple of years may cause a lot more action to restore at least part of the salt to at least some of its former glory.
Pete
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Great photos! Interestingly, from a distance, the salt looks better than it did last year at BMST. We drove at least 2 miles thru the lake to get to the pits then. Maybe there's hope, yet.
Tom
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The bike looks to be 'AT HOME' in those pics...................and you, sir, have several years to catch up on a few of us :lol:
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Mike, You broke a record without even turning a wheel in anger.
That's my honest heart felt opinion.
That must be the best looking bike I've seen on this forum.
Build of the season, period. The photos are also awesome.
You're my inspiration. God Bless you.
Listen to Pete!!!! He's an old hand. :cheers:
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With emphasis on the "old". :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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The nice thing about the little bikes is it does not take a lot of real estate to get them up to top speed. Airport runways, El Mirage, or beach races all are fun and opportunities.
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With emphasis on the "old". :-D :-D :-D
Pete
You're not old, You're Canadian!!!! Those dudes just get tougher. :-D
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Wow mike,
Handsome build to say the least. i have not kept up with your latest bodywork build, what a pleasant surprise. Hats off to you .
Cheers,
Scott
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Wow mike,
Handsome build to say the least. i have not kept up with your latest bodywork build, what a pleasant surprise. Hats off to you .
Cheers,
Scott
Thanks Scott. Had I known the bike shootout was going to happen I would have found a way to meet and see your little monster. Too late now, though. I'm probably going to run BMST next year so I may be contacting you about pushing the bodywork rule limitations. :cheers:
Good luck out there!
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Beautiful bike. I feel your pain making the body work. You are far more patient than I am :)
Did you make some fun runs out there at least?
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Well, with nothing going on, I'll probably be putting the race bike in some motorcycle shows in the off season.
I'd like to have a sign by the bike telling people of the plight of the Bonneville Salt Flats. Please help me decide what it should say.
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STOP MINING OUR NATIONAL TREASURE
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Mike, let me know if you find some shows you want to put it in. I can bring mine down too so there could be another bike to go with the display.
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Looky here.
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NICE...............Great Sign. I've been to my local GATHERING ON THE GREEN show with the Road America crowd...........quite a few commented on the salt conditions.
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Looky here.
Probably see you tomorrow, WW. Did you meet George? Gabe (Basement born) will be there tomorrow, too. I'll stop by.
That's the first time I've seen "myself" on the bike. That's not the correct speed hump but I can still tell the area above my butt needs some aero changes. I might raise the front of the tail section high enough that a different speed hump could make a nice shape from the front fairing all the way to the tail.
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NICE...............Great Sign. I've been to my local GATHERING ON THE GREEN show with the Road America crowd...........quite a few commented on the salt conditions.
George McMurray (TriMac Speedsters) provided the sign.
Here's George and "SuperFly".
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Sofa, my truck is up on blocks with the wheels off. Yesterday Rose let me use her truck. She is using it today so I will not be at the show. It would be nice to meet all of you.
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Since the odds of running at Bonneville are about as good as winning today's $900,000,000 ( :-o) lottery, I've been prepping the bike for shorter venues by losing some bike weight. Hopefully I'll be able to run at Elmo or at least the Mojave Mile. Both are still a long way to go for 1 or 2 day events. I can only take vacation time in one week blocks so I have to use 2 weeks vacation just for a weekend event. :-( If Loring becomes a 5 day event and the FIM guys are going to be there, I'd consider the 6600 mile drive and blowing 3 weeks time off.
I can't wait for the NW Reunion in Feb. to see which way the LSR wind is blowing.
We spent a month getting situated in our new shop. It's 50% larger (still too small) with plenty of available power, much better lighting and heat! :-D :-D :-D. We now have a pretty nice little shop (for a couple of hobbyist hacks) with a lathe, small milling machine, nice big drill press, vertical belt & disc sander, multiple bench grinders, TIG welder, a bike lift, a bike stand and boatloads of hand tools. What could possibly go wrong here? :evil:
Over the last few weekends I widened the frame and lowered the engine (to where it was supposed to be) which necessitated a new shift lever position. I put a bell crank in the new linkage to avoid having to shift backwards. I cut 4" from my cooling tank so I can run it lengthwise (less drag and less weight) and will get that mounted tomorrow. The smaller cooling tank should be fine for shorter tracks. Next, I have to cut out and widen the upper frame rails just behind the steering head so I can see better (another example of the welder not doing what I told him to do :x). If you want something done right you've got to do it yourself.
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That new shop sounds like it has a lot of helpful tools and some people to help you. We need a warm place to work.
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The situation at the BSF has taken some of the wind out of my sails but I'm pressing on. I’ve put a lot of time into mods lately. Not real noticeable but big improvements none the less. My body is only SCTA legal so I've been concentrating on prepping to run only in "open" classes at shorter events.
Pic 1. More than doubled the forward viewing area by re-doing the frame behind the steering head. Now I can see!! (did the whole job while muttering bad things about my previous welder) Came up with a much better way to shock mount the tach and exh. temp gauges. Tore the tach apart to see why the needle was reading intermittently and jumping all over the place. With a magnifying glass, I found a tiny piece of the thinnest copper wire I’ve ever seen laying across two solder joints on the circuit card. I’m hoping that was the problem.
Pic 2. Re-doing the frame allowed me to position the gas tank where it was supposed to be – between the frame rails (not under them). Picked up one of the two radiators from a late 90’s Suzuki RM250. I figure that ought to cool a 125 so I should be OK cooling a 100 (got my fingers crossed on this one). It’s all aluminum so should be very efficient.
Pic 3. Made a heavy duty number plate that’s shock mounted to mount the coil and ignition box on. I’ve still got space to mount my little Shorei battery in case the radiator needs a cooling fan.
Pic 4. Added 12 degrees outward angle to the handlebars. Before they were almost vertical. Even though my thumbs are still the minimum distance apart the control should be much better. A much bigger deal than one might think.
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last pic showing new handlebar stance. The steering head mod requires different steering stops and I'm still deciding how to do it (I'm a little short on space). Then it's ready for paint. Under the circumstances I can't see spending lots of time/ money so the frame will just be dark silver Rustoleum from rattle cans.
Looking forward to the NW Reunion next week. Hopefully some new LSR news will brighten the day.
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You have some great improvements there Mike! Good job. Are you doing the welding now?
Don
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Been a long time since I posted here!
I ran at El Mirage in May. It was a disaster (long story) but a terrific learning experience.
I ran at Speedweek. Another disaster (a really long story) and another learning experience. I did manage to get my rookie pass completed but my ignition box failed just past the one mile and I coasted past the two at 69mph. I calculate I was at about 93mph at the one mile mark so the 99mph record was easily within reach. But my week had ended. The French team set a new record at 101+.
I had been adapting to run BMST but I'd been missing a line in their rules that says footpegs must be in front of the rear axle so this bike will never be BMST legal. Darn.
Recently, I've chopped off the steering head to resolve the bike's biggest problem - lack of forward vision and a riding position that was causing me to pass out. I discovered a probable vacuum leak while building a velocity stack so, hopefully, that will cure some jetting problems. I'll be running an electric water pump this year. Many more small mods in the works, too. I will have a spare everything with me from now on.
I've dropped 11 pounds (cut my sugar intake) and should be fitting into my "skinny" drag race cut leathers with ease. They are much more aerodynamic and weigh about half my bulky road race leathers.
I'm more determined than ever and plan to kick some serious a$$ at Speedweek 2017.
Good luck to everyone this year and Save the Salt!
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Mike,
" lack of forward vision" - - - I can certainly relate to that! I wish they'd put the black centerline back on the course. Seeing those flags whiz by at 150 mph 1/4 mile apart can be disconcerting when your eyes are only 30" off the surface.
As for footpeg location, I read this in the rules:
CHAPTER 7
SPECIAL CONSTRUCTION (A) CLASS
"7. F. FOOT PEGS
Mandatory equipment, location of foot pegs is discretionary."
Tom
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Thanks, Tom. You're right. I re-read the BMST rules and I must have been looking in the wrong class before. Oh well, I wouldn't have made it anyhow. Maybe next year I will. Still won't be able to run the body, though. It's totally non BMST.
By "lack of forward vision" I mean I could only see about 30' in front of me! :-D.............. :oops:
I've shortened (raised) the lower part of the steering head by over an inch. Since it's only a few inches from my face I should have a much taller "window". (keep in mind that I'm looking under the lower fork tree.)
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Just finished going through this incredible build thread, just wondering if there's a follow up?
Truly awesome work!