Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: woz on November 10, 2014, 06:19:14 AM
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This engine normally carries the "boat anchor" designation, but does the 366 tall deck truck engine, with non-stock cylinder heads, rods, pistons, induction etc. warrant any consideration for a big-block "C" engine?
Any thoughts from experienced folks would be appreciated.
Thanks, Woz
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I have that possibility-- I have a Bryant 3.1 crank---I am looking at a LS motor
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No reason not to use a 366 other than it has a small bore under 4". The 427 tall has a 4.250 bore allowing a lot more stroke without hurting rod angle by using a long rod. Theres also plenty of direct intake options for them.
Sid.
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A 348 crankshaft with a 4.25 bore is another good combination . 369 ci and less valve shrouding . Requires piggybacked main bearing .
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Woz-
What class are you wanting to run? As Sparky alluded to, a stock block & crank 6.0L LS with
good rods/pistons and the (recommended for rectangle port) .030" overbore will make gobs of
power for a very small investment. You'll still be at the top end of "C" with 370CI and can set it
up for Classic with a carb & front mount distributor if you so choose. I know a lot of people would
rather go old school with motor choices, but these things are cheap, plentiful and strong.
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hmmmm....great minds think alike?? use the 366 and that way, if you want to step up to A or B ? the mounts etc. are already where they need to be :cheers:
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Thanks for the advice regarding the 366 TD engine.
The 427 TD is also available but a few $$$ more.
A gentlemen around here has several of the engines and the price is right.
Woz
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I think Varni, Walsh & Cuzac tried that in their roadster with out too much success but maybe I just didn't see it when it ran good or have the wrong info on it
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Well heck....Alot of people put the engine behind them long before Garlits did at that didn`t work either.
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hmmmm....great minds think alike?? use the 366 and that way, if you want to step up to A or B ? the mounts etc. are already where they need to be :cheers:
No problem with an LS motor going to A or B either. There are 500 cu. in. combos available now. The 366 might be cheap but some of the most expensive projects are the ones that got started with some cheap or free parts :cry:. The LS platform is going to continue to grow.
If you are going to end up blown lots of cu. in. might not be the best scenario anyway (ref. Speed Demon). If we were to build another AA motor it would be at the bottom of the cu. in. size for the engine class break. An A might be close to being a B. From there down I go close to max. allowable size. The reason being that it would be easier to find less expensive turbos that would still do the job. Those big motors need some mighty expensive turbos to make them work,
Sumner
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No problem with an LS motor going to A or B either. There are 500 cu. in. combos available now. The 366 might be cheap but some of the most expensive projects are the ones that got started with some cheap or free parts :cry:. The LS platform is going to continue to grow.
Sumner
Hell, "D" as well. Know of several guys making over 1,000HP using the "lowly" 4.8 block, which can also be de-stroked for "E".
Starting with a 6.0, you can get a pretty big "B" motor without the investment of an LSX block. We make over 1,000hp out of
a junkyard block/crank combo that cost us $700 WITH the .030" overbore. Can't beat it.
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...Hell, "D" as well. Know of several guys making over 1,000HP using the "lowly" 4.8 block...
Hopefully this question won't sidetrack this thread but what heads are they using since most good heads need a 4 inch bore I believe. Thanks,
Sumner
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I think everybody knows you can boost the pi$$ out of an LS engine & make power.
The question here was about tall deck BBC's.
Before the DRCE blocks, the TD BBC's were the weapon of choice. The 366 is still an over square engine & will not have a problem making power in natural or blown form.
Sid.
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No good heads for the bore size.
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...Hell, "D" as well. Know of several guys making over 1,000HP using the "lowly" 4.8 block...
Hopefully this question won't sidetrack this thread but what heads are they using since most good heads need a 4 inch bore I believe. Thanks,
Sumner
Dart Pro 1's or TEA heads for the smaller bores; we use "LSA" rectangle port heads (Caddy CTS-V) which like an overbore of .030"
Definitely wasn't trying to sidetrack the conversation, I just hate seeing someone spend lots of $ and wait on custom cranks, etc.
for an engine that may be less powerful and less reliable. Good luck.
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Some asked earlier what are you trying to do with this thing---I love the BBC but building one that will be competitive is going to be a problem with out big money on heads and a custom stroke crank Summs right they are tech. and designed challenged !
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I am looking at a truck that is set up for a BBC, perhaps initially a 130-150 street legal truck. It has no motor at this time and the 366-427 TD's seem to be plentiful around here. Perhaps it could evolve down the road but probably will try to get to Wilmington (quite a bit closer to Indiana) before hopefully running on the salt someday instead of spectating every year. Thought it might be viable to try the smaller engine class with the 366.
Thanks, Woz
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I am looking at a truck that is set up for a BBC, perhaps initially a 130-150 street legal truck. It has no motor at this time and the 366-427 TD's seem to be plentiful around here. Perhaps it could evolve down the road but probably will try to get to Wilmington (quite a bit closer to Indiana) before hopefully running on the salt someday instead of spectating every year. Thought it might be viable to try the smaller engine class with the 366.
Thanks, Woz
1) For a normally aspirated engine, think very carefully about any "combination" of geometries that compromises intake valve area as a percentage of bore area, unless low end torque is your main goal.
2) The above relationship is "less" critical when the engine is blown.
3) Big blocks with bore diameters less than 4.125"/4.250" limit the cylinder head choices that can be utilized, especially in aftermarket heads. Make da** sure the heads you intend to use can flow enough to feed the "flow demand" for the bhp and rpm you intend to run.
4) Consider the LONG TERM cost of any initial parts selections you might make early on.
Trust me on this, the good feeling of acquiring parts at affordable (cheap) prices may turn into bitter disappointment if or when the performance is compromised. I see this all the time in my consulting business. It is extremely unlikely that you will be able to make a silk purse out of the proverbial sow's ear.
Do some research and/or testing to determine for certain whether the parts in question will function as you desire. It's the smart move in the long run.
Good luck with your project, and don't let my moniker fool you into thinking I don't know much about Bowties . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
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This is obviously about having fun on a low budget in a short time frame so I say go for it.
The stock heads have ports the size of pi$$ holes in the snow so they won't make a whole lot of revs. Any of the 396 closed chamber heads will work fine on the 366. If you're in farm country like I am, you will likely have plenty of old pickups (pre 73) lying around with oval port closed chamber 396's plus you can change the monster water pump down to a pu/car size while you're there. The 366 will probably have a govenor carb on it, toss it in the scrap bin. Theres a good chance when you think you have a 366 you actually have a 427, you'll only know for sure when you measure the bore.
Sid.
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Thanks for all the quality information. The condition and price are such that I will probably get it or the 427 TD regardless. The 427 may be a better option over the 366 with perhaps a more favorable resale value down the road should I not use it based on the stroker capabilities I read about? I am always intrigued with "small" versions of "big" engines.
Woz
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I like the half a hemi Like George Fields used to run! :cheers:
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I like the half a hemi Like George Fields used to run! :cheers:
And like Steinegger & Eshenbaugh run in their F/FL that just set a record at Elmo last weekend.
(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14573.0;attach=48880;image)
Here is their thread from last weekend.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,14573.0.html
Gregg
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1/2 is what the S&E team ran this weekend!!!!!!!!!! At EL M
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I don't where the math ends up but a 4.250 bore with a 3.48 crank will equal near 400" our Dirt Track engine is a 4.125 bore and 3.48 stroke has 372" using all eight......find a good Dart at 4.125 and build a great "C"..good luck
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I went ahead and got a machined 366 block for next to nothing. With the .030 overbore it is right at the "C" limit. Plenty of 427 TD's and 454's available but thought we would mess with the oddball combo at first. I was looking at an ad for an 3.0 crank and calculated that at less than 300 inches with the 3.965 current bore. I was just wondering what small cube "big-block" combinations have been tried and been successful. With the tall deck design a short stroke would appear to present a lot of challenges.
Thanks for any info!
Woz
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I have an unused Bryant 3.10 crank if you wanted to try something strange.
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That looks like 306.216 cid with my bore.... a little too big for "D"
Any idea how a tall deck would work with such a stroke?
Thanks, Woz
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"I was just wondering what small cube "big-block" combinations have been tried and been successful." The SCTA 2014 car points champion
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I thought #811 was small block powered. Regardless, I need to do alot of research if trying to get a 366 down to "D" size and stay on a budget.
Thanks, Ron
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You are likely to find that the "C" size is the smallest "practical" big block power plant.
But I learned long long ago, never tell someone they "can't" do something. 8-)
Good Luck on the your project.
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A 348 crank fits in a big block if the BB main bearings are line bored to the 348 bearing od . 3.25" stroke x 4.25" bore is 369 ci . Better breathing with the larger bore . Worked well for Joe Law .
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A 348 crank fits in a big block if the BB main bearings are line bored to the 348 bearing od . 3.25" stroke x 4.25" bore is 369 ci . Better breathing with the larger bore . Worked well for Joe Law .
That would be a "C" right? :roll:
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Right.
The Compressed Air Beck-Davidson roadster was mandated to have a C motor.
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I am gathering parts for the build and was looking further at the destroke option. Anybody know of any 3" big block cranks lying about anywhere? The 3.1's are a bit too large for what I need.
Thanks, Ron
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Offset grind it 2.1, 2.0 or Honda 1.899 journals