Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: fastesthonda_jim on October 01, 2014, 12:24:25 AM
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As I am most likely one of the subjects of this rule change, I’d like to start a discussion.
So in the interest of biting my tongue and being polite, I‘ll just say I can conceive of no logical reason for the implementation of this rule, so if you know, or if you have an opinion, would you please enlighten me, as I can think of a number of advantages for having an enclosed trailer along with a few (for me) disadvantages. But a rule banning them? I don't get it.
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Jim where can we see this proposed rule change?
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5. Subject: Rule Change Request [#21]
Name: Mike Spacek
Issue : Over the years while going & working at Bonneville and El Mirage I have noticed the following: Most ALL vehicles competing in the car classes, which report to the impound for record certification, are either pushed, pulled, towed or trailered on an open trailer. That includes almost all of the very hard to transport and hard to prepare vehicles, including: Speed Demon, Turbinator, Vesco, Nish, Ferguson, Target 550, Danny Thompson, Rick Yacoucci etc. etc... But it also includes all other car class vehicles. To my knowledge, there are only one or two vehicles, which transport their car after a Record Certification or Back Up run, in an enclosed trailer. Hidden from everybody’s view. Why?? If the owners and drivers of 30 or 40 feet long Streamliners and Lakesters are able to present their vehicles to the certification officials and all competitors on open trailers and in plain view, why not make this a rule?
Rule Section: 1.G RECORD RUNS: Rule Page #:12
Desired Outcome: Make it FAIR for all vehicles and competitors, competing in Car Classes as described in Section 5, page 55.
Reason for Change: Make it FAIR for all vehicles and competitors, competing in Car Classes as described in Section 5, page 55.
What are the side effects? : One or two vehicle owners will have to design a light open trailer or dolly, like ALL OTHER Competitors already have.
Desired Rulebook Modification: Section 1.G, RECORD RUNS: Page 12 reads as follows: A qualified vehicle shall proceed directly to the designated impound area and report to the official within 1 hour of the time stamp on the timing slip.
Add a New Sentence after above:
All vehicles competing as described in Section 5, Car Classes, are not permitted to be transported in an enclosed trailer or enclosed vehicle to the impound for record certification.
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Really?
As a guy with an open trailer... I see this rule request... well something to spent other peoples money...
Just unload the car outside of the trailer for inspection. It is that EASY.
Don't start becoming another California bureaucracy.
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I am with you:
If they want to say will only look at it on the ground so be it
IF someone thinks they are cheating while inside the trailer-- let the protestor PAY to seal the trailer-- let them PROTEST (with forfeiture of protest sealing money) and seal the trailer while it is being transported.
LOTS of bikes are transported inside!
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If the concern is that a team will spend the hour - an hour which actually goes by very quickly - packing a chute, loading the car into the trailer, hugging and congratulating each other and picking up the time slip, and then start monkeying around hiding illegal speed secrets, attempting to uninstall a non-class compliant component, replace an engine, or reinstall a safety component while trying to get back to impound in a hot, enclosed trailer while driving the return road in a timely fashion, I'll say this -
I don't think the Wood Brothers in their heyday could pull that one off.
I don't even think Penske could.
Yes, it's possible.
But is it likely?
And is it a problem?
And if a team was actually able to do that, I think that team deserves a performance award.
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This is what I thought when I read the proposed rule change. Requiring an entrant to bring a separate trailer to the salt in case he qualifys is unreasonable. The change would not just apply to a few people who have enclosed trailers and set records lately. It would apply to everyone who has an enclosed trailer and thinks they may qualify for return run. Who want's to bring an extra, empty trailer just to tow back from the 7? Bad idea.
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Silly idea if I ever heard one.
The burden of lugging an extra trail is none sense.
Yes, there are folks with special handling contraptions for their race vehicles, but there are just as many without.
I'll do whatever the rules end up being, but the folks making the rules need to consider just how much unnecessary money they will cost racers when they invent new rules.
Safety should be the primary driver of any new rules.
Rouse
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"Reason for Change: Make it FAIR for all vehicles and competitors, competing in Car Classes as described in Section 5, page 55."
If fairness is indeed the issue, the most effective way of policing these enclosed trailer reprobates would be to have the sanctioning body collect all of the cars that qualify and transport them to impound.
:roll:
I see this one going nowhere.
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My first thought was that the rule change proposer is a tad too much biased towards cars. Where is even a hint about the fact that bikes are very often transported back from the end in a closed trailer? Or perhaps we're seeing his implied statement that bike racers are way above such cheating and don't need to be addressed by the rule. :-D
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I have mentioned before that one of the first things I say at the rules meeting is that we are not in the room to reach into someone's wallet for the sake of a change. This is the perfect example of that. "Make it fair...", what does that mean?
DW
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If this is enforced Target550 will never run at an event where that rule is enforced.
FREUD
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If this is enforced Target550 will never run at an event where that rule is enforced.
FREUD
I also recall you saying it would never run at any SCTA or USFRA meets because it didn't meet the rules.
Sid.
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Why is transport in an enclosed trailer unfair to those who choose to tow, push or use an open trailer? They could use an enclosed trailer if they want. If you're going to propose a rule change to reduce some supposed cheating at least have the balls to say so.
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Why is transport in an enclosed trailer unfair to those who choose to tow, push or use an open trailer? They could use an enclosed trailer if they want. If you're going to propose a rule change to reduce some supposed cheating at least have the balls to say so.
That's the reason for the rule proposal. The clubs will vote as they see fit, then the board decides.
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Both of the Vesco liners are transported on open trailers. They stay on the trailers in the pits to work on as they are very low and difficult to do maint. They are designed for this purpose. The cars are trailered to the starting line and unloaded there. After a run we load them on the trailer and either go to impound or the pits. We can load the car on the trailer and be ready in 15 mins. This also saves wear and tear on very expensive tires or other damage pushing on the surface. The rule of no enclosed trailers is stupid. There are several racers that have a service trailer as well as a enclosed, Nish,Main, are two. This request for a rule change should not be passed.BTW, we have our trailer waiting in the shut down/turn out to speed clearing the track in a speedy manner. :cheers:
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Is it April the 1st already? :-D
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This seems to be a solution in search of a problem.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Maybe require that all enclosed trailer walls be made completely of clear, shatterproof polycarbonate? Seems reasonable.
Steve.
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can i still have Smokey Yunick on our open trailer under the shade of
a dark grey fabric...
its imperative that Smokey check things over to ensure no safety concerns post
run, and its a serious health concern not to have adequate UV protection....
Joe
ps the trailer has short sides, seatbelts, and airbags, and no lead paint
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can i still have Smokey Yunick on our open trailer under the shade of
a dark grey fabric...
its imperative that Smokey check things over to ensure no safety concerns post
run, and its a serious health concern not to have adequate UV protection....
Joe
ps the trailer has short sides, seatbelts, and airbags, and no lead paint
LOL!
:-D
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Neil....I agree. :?
Bill
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Sid, so You boldly called me on my statement that we would not run at a SCTA event
because at that time the rules, if enforced, would have not allowed us to run for several
reasons. When we passed tech we would have been stupid to bow our neck and not run
because of a statement that I made. When I made the statement it was based on a firm
decision that the car would not pass tech. I don't know that the prior rules have been changed
but I do know the car passed tech and our driver is comfortable with the car as presently run
at speeds close to 300 MPH.
Our car is 43 feet long and has 3" of clearance. You can take this to the bank. It will not be towed
on the ground. The amount of time spent on building the transporter was well spent. At the WOS
event we found that even in the carrier it was impractical to move the car any substantial distance.
The salt is just too rough to even move it in the carrier. So the car is lifted by the carrier, secured
and reloaded into our 3 axle 53 foot triple axle trailer and moved.
If this doesn't meet with your approval, build a streamliner with a open trailer and protest us.
In your opinion that will make my prior prediction come true ........unless the protest is disallowed.
Not because the CAR didn't pass tech but because we didn't have an open trailer.
The car was not built to satisfy SCTA rules but somehow it has.
FREUD
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Do not have my rule book in front of me, but isn't it against the rules to ride in the back of pickups and on or in trailers currently (in the pits, staging lanes and return road)? Course stewards and impound personnel probably already look for trailer riders now, so, is a new rule really necessary? I pull an open trailer and don't have a dog in this hunt.
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HMMMM--- Mike Spacek :evil: as in SPACE Kadet :roll: he must be out there somewhere
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forgot to mention, other part of team uses a toy hauler rv type rig...
we like to spend alot of time looking things over so safe to present to tech
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Sparky... be nice... he might just be inspecting your car someday...
he just had an idea... not such a favorable one...
I have had plenty in my life..
did I ever tell you about my last wife...
well she did a ranch in Idaho...
:-o :-o :cry:
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My interactions with him have always been good: http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=429 (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=429) both here and via email. :cheers:
Mike
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Part of the issue you have with this PROPOSED rule is you're thinking of Bonneville....
Think El Mirage.
The idea is no better or worse than say......... worrying about head lights breaking by themself :evil: Sorry Midget :wink:
People put ideas forth in the form of a rule change proposal. The clubs vote on them and the SCTA Board decides weather to implement them.
And Bill, you know better.... :|
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Remember -- he invented the Compressed Air (C/AIR) Roadsters that have allowed us to enjoy the Studebaker-, Packard-, Polysphere-, Y-Block-, Nash-, Early Olds- and Early Cadillac-powered Gas Roadsters we've enjoyed making a comeback the last couple of years. Somebody forgot to tell Mariani and Davidson how this was supposed to work.
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Sid, so You boldly called me on my statement that we would not run at a SCTA event
because at that time the rules, if enforced, would have not allowed u to run for several
reasons. When we passed tech we would have been stupid to bow our neck and not run
because of a statement that I made. When I made the statement it was based on a firm
decision that the car would not pass tech. I don't know that the prior rules have been changed
but I do know the car passed tech and our driver is comfortable with the car as presently run
at speeds close to 300 MPH.
Our car is 43 feet long and has 3" of clearance. You can take this to the bank. It will not be towed
on the ground. The amount of time spent on building the transporter was well spent. At the WOS
event we found that even in the carrier it was impractical to move the car any substantial distance.
The salt is just too rough to even move it in the carrier. So the car is lifted by the carrier, secured
and reloaded into our 3 axle 53 foot triple axle trailer and moved.
If this doesn't meet with your approval, build a streamliner with a open trailer and protest us.
In your opinion that will make my prior prediction come true ........unless the protest is disallowed.
Not because the CAR didn't pass tech but because we didn't have an open trailer.
The car was not built to satisfy SCTA rules but somehow it has.
FREUD
My statement neither stated or implied I had any issue with anyone trailering anything on the salt, only what you had previously stated. I would also never expect you or anybody do anything to seek my approval, that's just ridiculoce.
Sid.
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Racing
Fair
Two words that contradict each other.
Neither should be used in the same rulebook, much less in the same rule.
John
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I am guilty---but I plead the Flip Wilson defense "The Devil made me do it" hmm so how I do not think that will gain much traction
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This seems to be a solution in search of a problem.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
I agree 100% with Neil's statement. This proposed rule change is ridiculous. YMMV
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I think the core intent is somewhat valid however the execution is a bit flawed and saying that it makes things fair isn't really the right concept. If cheating was really an issue, the association should either provide a ride along rep that travels in the trailer after a record run to keep an eye on things or require that a rep close and seal the trailer between the end of the track and impound. This wouldn't be to keep thing "fair" but to keep people honest. While I'm sure people have gotten away with fishy stuff over the years, I really don't think this is an issue.
It's not like enclosed trailers would actually get banned. C'mon now.
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If there are concerns about possible irregularities occurring, thus maybe the following would work and is one scenario specific:
If a vehicle (car/motorcycle) sets an initial qualifying record speed, if actual mechanical work is performed upon vehicle within an enclosed transport unit (trailer, box truck, van, etc) -- all the doors must be open for SCTA officials observation while in the impound inspection compound or when in the actual staging area before a return run the following morning.
Basically someone would have to be very brazen to do an engine swap or other not quite legal modifications between initial qualifying and second run for a record if an SCTA official could walk up into their enclosed transport unit and witness modifications being made to the vehicle.
Otherwise let everyone transport or work in their air conditioned or heated transport box of choice until they set an initial qualifying record run and ONLY then does the rule above apply.
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Actually, SuperL when we work on the car in Impound in our enclosed trailer our doors are rarely open. However, our doors are always open, to the curious, to our fans, and to the over heated and/or thirsty, not to mention to our friends, the tech inspectors.
There are so many ways to cheat at Bonneville, that you easily can... if you "need" to. Given that the "rewards" are a mere slip of paper, I frankly can't see the motivation... not to mention I have to (get to?) look at my self in the mirror each morning.
Thanks to all for viewing this thread. Now make sure your club reps vote "No" on this issue if you would, please.
Thanks,
Jim
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there are numerous reasons many of us prefer enclosed trailer....
lets say a wind/rain storm blows in, and your under the clock, and
you have waited 25 years to get to this point, that record...
and you were in, or loaded into enclosed trailer, under the clock....
anyway, as Jim mentioned....and imo "anywhere" at an SCTA venue as a
participant...we are ALL subject to the scrutiny of said officials...
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. . . and even more often by our fellow competitors.
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. . . and even more often by our fellow competitors.
More so by the current record holder.
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Guilt by suspicion. Another page for the telephone book.
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I have no dog in this fight but this proposed rule is overkill
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I am guilty---but I plead the Flip Wilson defense "The Devil made me do it" hmm so how I do not think that will gain much traction
A person needs some age under thier belt to know who Flip Wilson is. Is he still alive?
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This is the problem of non racers writing rules.
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It truly is a Whiskey Tango Foxtrot sort of rule proposal.
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This is the problem of non racers writing rules.
Amen to that!
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Though I really don't see how an enclosed trailer is "unfair" to another racer (if you are "cheating" there are plenty of ways to do it without involving your trailer, as has been pointed out) it would be interesting to have the original proposer of the rule comment or discuss further why he thinks this is something that should be done and how he perceives the that an enclosed trailer is a problem.
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Maybe there have been past events that have occurred?
I am not so sure it would apply in cars as much as it might in the motorcycles.
John
BTW, Mike is a very competent inspector, I am sure he has witnessed something to prompt this.
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An armed SCTA guard per enclosed trailer perhaps?
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Cheaters will get caught in the long run.
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If I can't switch out the nitrous bottle in the trailer, I guess I will have to hide it under the gas tank!
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Does it pay to cheat? How much?
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I remember a vehicle at El Mirage that was banned for life for cheating, got caught running fuel in a gas class.
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Is a record that important that you'd resort to cheating?
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There's always one in a crowd that screws it for the rest of us.
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An armed SCTA guard per enclosed trailer perhaps?
I second that! :cheers: Seriously though this sounds like someone in particular has it out for someone else in particular and this is the most roundabout way they can think of.
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The originator is a SCTA inspector. :roll:
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This is the problem of non racers writing rules.
I don't know what your definition of a "racer" is but Mike campaigns a very competitive VOT car.
The originator is a SCTA inspector. :roll:
And what is it that supposed to mean?
Some of you guys are no better than a bunch of cackling old women at a hair salon. Cackle, cackle, cackle, squawk, squawk, squawk... Maybe it's time to step away from the keyboard and find a hobby.
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OUCH! :-o While to some respect that may be true, it is still sure to hurt feelings,
Peace everyone :cheers:
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Some of you guys are no better than a bunch of cackling old women at a hair salon. Cackle, cackle, cackle, squawk, squawk, squawk... Maybe it's time to step away from the keyboard and find a hobby.
but, but, but... this is my hobby... :cry:
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Some of you guys are no better than a bunch of cackling old women at a hair salon. Cackle, cackle, cackle, squawk, squawk, squawk... Maybe it's time to step away from the keyboard and find a hobby.
Pot meet kettle...... :roll:
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This is the problem of non racers writing rules.
I don't know what your definition of a "racer" is but Mike campaigns a very competitive VOT car.
The originator is a SCTA inspector. :roll:
And what is it that supposed to mean?
Some of you guys are no better than a bunch of cackling old women at a hair salon. Cackle, cackle, cackle, squawk, squawk, squawk... Maybe it's time to step away from the keyboard and find a hobby.
Maybe Mike should reconsider his farked up proposal. Looks asinine to most of us. I folks are cheating in trailers, go after those folks. To make a broad sweeping rule like this is as dumb as Indy or F1
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So do I need to build another trailer?! Yeah, I'm freakin' rolling in money!
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naw just take the roof off :-D
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This rule change didn't actually get the "thumbs up", did it? :-o
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This is the problem of non racers writing rules.
I don't know what your definition of a "racer" is but Mike campaigns a very competitive VOT car.
The originator is a SCTA inspector. :roll:
And what is it that supposed to mean?
Some of you guys are no better than a bunch of cackling old women at a hair salon. Cackle, cackle, cackle, squawk, squawk, squawk... Maybe it's time to step away from the keyboard and find a hobby.
Are enclosed keyboards allowed/legal?. My hobby is the keyboard. :-D :-o
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This rule change didn't actually get the "thumbs up", did it? :-o
It did actually. Now, instead of everyone's hobby being jibber jabbering on here about rules that would never see the light of day, their new hobby can be cutting huge holes in the sides of their enclosed trailers. That should keep a lot of folks busy over the off season. :evil:
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Just take the doors off your trailer
Not enclosed anymore
G
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Actually it didn't get the thumbs up. Rules committee didn't like it either.
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YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!! sanity prevails
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(http://persephonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/facepalm-captain-picard.jpg)
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*
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Just forget it.
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Maybe Im just naïve, but whats the point of cheating to get a record that would have no meaning what so ever to it, no money to win and no pride in doing it ? That's the same crap that ruined NHRA stock and super stock drag racing and caused the costs to go out of sight
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Maybe Im just naïve, but whats the point of cheating to get a record that would have no meaning what so ever to it, no money to win and no pride in doing it ? That's the same crap that ruined NHRA stock and super stock drag racing and caused the costs to go out of sight
Never underestimate the human ego.
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It passed, no it didn't? Rule changes go to rules committee 1st, then the SCTA board.
Has the board voted?
Hey Dan where are you?
JL222 :cheers:
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Did not make it past rules meeting.
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Read reply #68.
DW
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Man you guys can't take a joke can you. [sarcasm]Next time I'll use the sarcasm tags but most of you are probably too old to know what that means.[/sarcasm]
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Man you guys can't take a joke can you. [sarcasm]Next time I'll use the sarcasm tags but most of you are probably too old to know what that means.[/sarcasm]
Nathan, that's because none of us EVER use sarcasm. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Pete
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Man you guys can't take a joke can you. [sarcasm]Next time I'll use the sarcasm tags but most of you are probably too old to know what that means.[/sarcasm]
Yea and stock cranks in vintage 4cyl :-o Sarcasm? No its a lie no joke :roll:
JL222
Well a bit sarcastic :-D