Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: velocity on September 19, 2014, 01:38:16 AM
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In car camera video with views fore and aft of the Speed Demon crash. At 58 seconds into the run it goes from AOK steady to near instantaneous unraveling in 2 seconds. . . May God Bless the designers and fabricators.
https://www.facebook.com/CookLSS?ref=hl
From Cook's website:
The accompanying videos of the 370 mph crash that George Poteet walked away from provide ample testimony to the extraordinary quality of car construction and crew preparation that comprise the Speed Demon operation. At Mike Cook's Bonneville Shootout, everyone rolls as soon as the car passes. Crew and professional emergency vehicles were on top of the crash in less than 15 seconds. Unless you see this first hand it is difficult to comprehend the fine line between record speeds and disaster. George places great confidence in these people and they all delivered. Video courtesy of ARP and Speed Demon. — at Bonneville Salt Flats Utah.
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Wow...glad he is OK!
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Thanks. :cheers:
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Thanks :-).
It looked like he had a lot of wheel into it and then realized he needed to get the chute out and looked like he did that (if that was what the hand movement to the right was) but it didn't look like the chute ever deployed until the car was almost stopped??
I lost count of how many times the car rolled but it looked like a lot. As the others have said the car was well built and thankfully George is ok. You can't ask for more than that,
Sumner
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Thank you. That type of clip is a rare thing to see. They were on that crash fast!
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Rich Manchen should be commended for building an outstanding chassis that George walked away from. Rich is a great welder and fabricator and knows how to build chassis. Good job Rich. :cheers:
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I hope that red button on the wheel was the chute. This video demonstrates how fast things go to shit in one of these cars. Hopefully this will help everyone see the need to have hands on wheel chute actuation.
George, glad to see you are OK, we are fortunate folks... :cheers:
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Wow, my blood pressure drops 20% watching that. Fantastic chassis engineering and construction. Not that many pencil rolls considering the speed.
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I hope that red button on the wheel was the chute. This video demonstrates how fast things go to Subaru in one of these cars. Hopefully this will help everyone see the need to have hands on wheel chute actuation.
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/car-other-1/speed-demon-1.jpg)
Looking at it again I think you are right and the chute release might be the red button to the left. I saw his right hand go right but looking at it again it looks like that was an instinct reaction to grab a hold of something as the car started to go over.
Looking at the rear-view video I still never saw a chute until the very end. Might be wise to have one that activates on its own like what I think is required on a bike streamliner. I might consider that myself,
Sum
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I have to wonder if George gave permission for these videos to be posted for everyone's viewing enjoyment. Some how i doubt it. :?
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I have to wonder if George gave permission for these videos to be posted for everyone's viewing enjoyment. Some how i doubt it. :?
Since they were released on Cook's site I'll bet they were OKed for release. This is stuff that could save lives in the future, like our discussion on getting to the chute release and making sure we don't get body parts outside the cage area.
I hope he did realize the safety benefit of letting others view the videos and thank them for releasing them if they did,
Sumner
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Some how i doubt if he ok'd it. Just my 2 cents.
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"Video courtesy of ARP and Speed Demon."
But you could be right. :roll:
Mike
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I posted this same comment on the Speed Demon book topic. I want to make sure that I get my two cents in as one who was sort of there when he got on his head. I wasn't really "there" -- I was at the 5 1/2 at the timing tower. Alan Rice was with me, of course, and watching the run through binoculars, so he saw way more than I did. I saw big clouds of salt dust - he saw body panels flying off the car. So to my post:
In re: the Speed Demon crash --
No, George wasn't fine. I noticed a couple of very light black-and-blue bruises on his arms as he sat at the autograph table, signing zillions of Speed Demon "hero cards" (as the cards showing whatever race car and driver and the basic statistics). :roll: Unfortunately I didn't get any. I wanted one for our collection and one to auction off on landracing.com's Forum -- but the waiting line was too long and I had to get back to the tower to continue the streaming.
But was George okay? Well, if he could hang around and joke and smile and sign and even shake hands -- pretty danged good is my official diagnosis.
More power to him, the car, the crew, and especially the safety workers. I've seen them chase down all sorts of vehicles - and the effort the expended to get to George was amazing. by the way -- the nearest course watcher reported that George was out of the car and walking before Kirk and the rest of the safety/fire folks got there. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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That's like when I recently crashed my bike at BMST at over 200 mph. Broken shoulder, two broken fingers, severe burns on arms and legs, bruises, sore everywhere. People said "Well I'm glad you are OK! I am? Huhhh?
Don
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FYI
We would never post a crash video or picture with out permission
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Don -- understood.
What most folks are thinking, but not wanting to say is; "I'm glad he or she is alive."
It is the first thing we all go to when there is a crash. Once there is proof of life, we next hope/pray the driver is hasn't lost any body parts. And please God, no fire, no burns. We then work our way down the list: protect the head, the spine, no compound fractures, if there are broken bones, let them be small ones, not too much road rash, and so it goes.
And this goes on in our heads in fractions of seconds.
What we want is our family member, our friend, our lover, our team mate, our hero and heroine, to come through the ordeal easy enough so that they can be whole again in as short a time as possible. And sometimes getting that means no more racing and other times it means getting back in the speed machine ASAP.
The only guy I know who has crashed MULTIPLE times in excess of 400, 500 and 600 MPH and has NEVER broken a bone or bled a single drop is Craig Breedlove. That man is the lucky Buddha in all of motorsports going back to chariot racing.
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Just don't try to roll over when the cat jumps up by your face.
FREUD
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Slim,
I told you I would get the hero cards for you and I did. In my garage as I write this. If not delivered at WF I will request a mailing address.
You never listen to anything I say.
DW
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First of all: Dan, I indeed did hear you say you'd get the hero cards, but I assumed (wrongly) that you didn't get them for whatever reason. I'm sorry if it came over as if I was spanking you. Please forgive me. But also please get the cards to me sooner or later. Thanks.
Now -- as to George's condition. I've been apprised by a member of the Speed Demon crew:
(George) wanted me to contact you to ask you to post this information.
He did give permission to release the video.
He also wanted to say "The driver said there were several factors that contributed to the crash but there is only one person to blame .. the driver."
There. That oughta settle the debate pretty well.
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If you watch "Something evil this way comes" at 2.57 George moves his right hand off the wheel and slightly down to the right to deploy the chute.
Also in that video Ron stated that the car does wheelspin at 380, I think.
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It takes a tremendous amount of driving force to push a vehicle through the air
at high speeds (say, 300+mph). If the vehicle is wheel-driven, lack of traction
is likely to be a major problem, unless addressed adequately. It's not easy to
do so.
Providing a sufficient downward force--to prevent wheelspin--on the drive
wheel(s) can be done two ways--with weight, and with force induced by the
vehicle's propulsion system.
The first way is to design and build the vehicle such that plenty of weight is on
the drive wheel(s). If the basic weight of the vehicle isn't enough, ballast can be
added. Adding ballast means that there is more mass to accelerate. Generally,
this isn't a big problem if the race course is plenty long.
The second way is to add downward force to the driving wheel(s) by non-weight
methods. An example of this is to aim the exhaust pipe(s) upward, or to have
some kind of powered "fan(s)". I don't know whether a fan is permitted for this.
Another way that appears to be permitted is to use aerodynamics to create a
downward force on the drive wheels. For decades, dragsters and other race
vehicles have been doing this, using "spoilers" or "wings". These do, however,
make a vehicle less smooth, aerodynamically, for forward travel, and thus requires
power. If there is plenty of power available, then it may not be a major issue.
Lots of experimentation is likely to be required.
It appears that the Carbinite LSR car has adjustable spoilers or wings between the
body and the rear wheels. Here's the web address (you may need to copy and paste):
http://landspeedevents.com/blog/carbinite-lsr/
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Years ago,[I'm old] , someone proposed to add turbochargers to the exhaust of funny cars, not for extra power, but to use the air intake under the body to suck the car down to the track as the speed increased. Like a giant vacuum cleaner. Never heard if anybody tried it with any success or not.
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Jim Hall used two XLO snowmobile engine- driven fans on one of his Can- Am cars. It was so fast that it was banned.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Chaparral 2J I think.
Gordon Murray also designed a fan car (Brabham) that was banned.
I have never driven on salt or even seen Bonneville but from the video the track condition seemed to be the problem.
George has done more runs at higher speeds than most.
It takes a special guy to blame himself.
With all the speculation etc, not many guys walk away from a wreck like that.
Sad as it sounds this is a victory for many reasons.
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We sure are doing a lot of guessing backed by a few seconds of video.
The crew has all the data and they won't have to guess.
Lets let them tell us when they are ready.
FREUD
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Tauruck, how is it a victory that somebody crashed, doing great damage to
the vehicle? My definition of victory is winning some kind of competition, or
at least overcoming the obstacle(s) that might prevent one from achieving
one's goal(s).
. . . I am reminded of people who would say the driver is lucky!! I claim that
he had BAD luck on that day, by crashing. I consider myself lucky. I didn't
crash or even lose control of a car or other vehicle, tool, implement, or my
temper lately. Maybe I'm lucky because I didn't take a risk as George Poteet
did.
Now, I don't have anything against him. And I'm not critical of his decision to
drive Speed Demon on that or any other day. I wish for him all the best, and
sincerely hope that he has no heretofore undiagnosed injuries from the recent
Speed Demon crash.
I also look forward to seeing the next Speed Demon go even faster than this
one ever did . . . safely, of course!
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We sure are doing a lot of guessing backed by a few seconds of video.
The crew has all the data and they won't have to guess.
Lets let them tell us when they are ready.
FREUD
Yep. Well said Freud.
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Tall, I will assure you that LSR is a dangerous sport, and anytime a car or bike crashes and the driver/rider is not killed, maimed or critically injured it is a victory! Luck plays a part, as does the skill of the person building the cage, the choice of what safety equipment you use and whether God thinks it is or is not your time....
:cheers:
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Dodging a bullet or surviving a crash is a victory over the Grim Reaper.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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George said it was driver error. As quick as it happened it's hard to think anyone else driving would have not been in that situation.
I think ANY race car should have a gyro/accelerometer shut off. If you are sideways in the very smallest amount the run is over anyway.
I have been working with quadcopter software for the last 5 years and the modules are $50. Latency is virtually nill.
You can debate how much yaw should be allowed before triggering. I don't think pitch and roll need much debate.
Did you notice how quickly the canopy distorted and disappeared? Nothing like a 300 mile per hour breeze from the side.
I had assumed that there was some pretty sophisticated traction control on the Speed Demon. Watching previous runs (Thanks to the team and Replay XD1080 for posting more video than any other team!) The acceleration and shifting alwas looked really smooth. Even a great driver like George Poteet couldn't be that smooth, I thought.
Watching this run was way different. There is clear wheel spin all through the run. If you didn't do it before, watch it again and click the HD button. Turn the sound up and listen. I think that if George is referring to driver error it's that the wheel spin early in the run may have been the warning.
NOTE: This is all Monday Morning Quarterbacking so that we can all have something to think about. I think the Speed Demon time is the best on the planet.
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some have the type of character George has, some leader (s) rarely or never take that level
of responsibility
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If you watch "Something evil this way comes" at 2.57 George moves his right hand off the wheel and slightly down to the right to deploy the chute.
Also in that video Ron stated that the car does wheelspin at 380, I think.
If you look at the black line of tach on the dash at 58 to 60 sec it jumps up in rpm at time of crash. The data recorder will show if increased rpms and wheel spin where from extra throttle or loss of traction from course conditions.
New Speed Demon with tandem rear axels?
JL222
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I've read these comments both here an other places and most of you must not know Mike Cook or George Poteet. They are some of the most honest, nicest people I know. Mike would never allow anything to be posted to his site under any condition that was not approved, period end of story. George Poteet is another of those same people. He could have kept it all to himself and his team but that's just not George. He is all about helping all who race on the salt, and I'm sure posting his crash, he felt was in the best interest of helping people understand just what can, and does happen. It's there so we can all look it over and learn from it. The Poteet and Main team are the best this sport has to offer and the rest of us can only hope to be as good and nice as they are.
Our team was lucky enough to be pitted next to them a few years back at the Cook Shoot Out when we broke the FIA record for our class. The car rolled into the pits and had some damage after the first leg of the record run. Mike Cook was one of the first there giving us a time line we had to get it turned around and asking if he could help in anyway. George and Ron were right behind Mike offering anything they could do to help us get things fixed, checked and the car turned around for the second run. We had minor body damage due to the exhaust burning the glass body around the exit. Well, as we started to take it apart George walked back to his pit pulled his entire crew off his car and sent them all over to help. I can assure you all that without there help we would not have been able to get it done in time. Well not only are we all fixed and back on the track with spare time but then, it gets worse. As the car comes of the push bumper of the push truck the turbo's hit hard and spun the tires and here goes the liner round and round off the track! We get very lucky and it stayed upright and on all fours, tires are fine. I get to the car and the drivers telling me push me back, have we got enough time? By the time I look up here comes Ron, George and the whole Speed Demon crew to help us again. As were pushing the car by hand back out of the junk salt to get it to where the salt is good enough for the push truck not to sink in, Mike Cook there asking what are we going to do. When we tell him were still going to make the backup run he gets on the radio and makes sure to get his entire crew back into place so if there is time left we can make a run. Again the Speed Demon crew helps us go over the car quickly and does it running along side as were pushing it back out of the junk salt and back to the starting line.
Well the fact that we have the class record pretty much let's you all know we made it in time but, without the commitment of Mike Cook, Ron Main and George Poteet we wouldn't. These guys are there to help improve the sport and enjoy it for themselves as well along the way and my hats off to each and every one of them.
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Roger that, Steve. I remember very well the incident when the car spun as Curt got a bit too hard on the throttle (I've got it on video in the other 'puter), but more to the point -- I remember all of the stuff that the Poteet and Main crew did to help out. I've told the story dozens of times as an example of what goodwill and interest in helping there is among land speed racers.
It was quite a sight to see all of those black t-shirts and jeans folks running to get the car ready again. And yes, I do remember Mike getting to work on the 'glass around the exhaust. I've probably got images of that, too.
All for one, one for all. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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I've raced for a lot of years and I had never had that amount of people just be there to help us get the record. Dropped what they were doing just to help, when they didn't have too. I only meant Ron and George the year before so it wasn't like I knew them well. I have known there engine builder for years and Kenny and I are good friends. They were unlucky the year before and had a fire that burned the car. Kenny came over and asked if I could glass there body up for them and I did the best I could for them with what little materials I had along after fixing our car that year. All I know is that we could not ask for better guys in Mike Cook, Ron Main and George Poteet to be there to help and represent LSR. When we got the record I'm not sure that they were not just as happy about it as we were. I can never forget Mike telling the FIA official they made it, with less than 30 seconds still on the clock!
I just had to say something when I read about people that would question if it was OK for one of those guys to put something up as Mike did. There is just no way in hell it would ever happen, if there wasn't permission!
Slim would love a copy of the infamous spin if I could get a copy of it from you. While it's one I will never forget it would be nice to have a copy of it.
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Sumner commented on the attempt by George to release the parachutes. There are two parachutes, each released by a separate red knob. One is to the right of the steering wheel and the other to the left of the steering wheel. Before closing the cockpit, a crew member snipped the wire ties which prevent accidental release before George is strapped in. George reached with his right hand to activate the right hand red knob, then reached over to activate the left hand red knob. Compared to other film of the Speed Demon, neither knob appeared to pivot forward like is normally seen. The rear view camera did not show either parachute deploying. Did something prevent the parachutes deploying properly or were they just out of view in the film? In the still photos, the two parachutes appear to be lying beneath the Speed Demon as it lies on its side. That would indicate they left the canisters, but were trapped under the car in the ensuing rolling (and spinning?). If the parachutes were inflated behind the Speed Demon, they would not prevent "pencil rolling", but should have prevented spinning. Perhaps the Speed Demon rotated while on its side as it slowed down. :? :?
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.... The rear view camera did not show either parachute deploying. Did something prevent the parachutes deploying properly or were they just out of view in the film? ...
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/car-other-1/speed-demon-2.jpg)
At 1:14 you can see a pilot chute. Did it just come out or like you mentioned had it come out earlier and was entangled with the car?? My guess would be that it just released at that point. Car damage could of caused the release possibly?
This was only about 2 seconds before the car came to a final rest,
Sum
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I've read these comments both here an other places and most of you must not know Mike Cook or George Poteet. They are some of the most honest, nicest people I know. Mike would never allow anything to be posted to his site under any condition that was not approved, period end of story. George Poteet is another of those same people. He could have kept it all to himself and his team but that's just not George. He is all about helping all who race on the salt, and I'm sure posting his crash, he felt was in the best interest of helping people understand just what can, and does happen. It's there so we can all look it over and learn from it. The Poteet and Main team are the best this sport has to offer and the rest of us can only hope to be as good and nice as they are.
Our team was lucky enough to be pitted next to them a few years back at the Cook Shoot Out when we broke the FIA record for our class. The car rolled into the pits and had some damage after the first leg of the record run. Mike Cook was one of the first there giving us a time line we had to get it turned around and asking if he could help in anyway. George and Ron were right behind Mike offering anything they could do to help us get things fixed, checked and the car turned around for the second run. We had minor body damage due to the exhaust burning the glass body around the exit. Well, as we started to take it apart George walked back to his pit pulled his entire crew off his car and sent them all over to help. I can assure you all that without there help we would not have been able to get it done in time. Well not only are we all fixed and back on the track with spare time but then, it gets worse. As the car comes of the push bumper of the push truck the turbo's hit hard and spun the tires and here goes the liner round and round off the track! We get very lucky and it stayed upright and on all fours, tires are fine. I get to the car and the drivers telling me push me back, have we got enough time? By the time I look up here comes Ron, George and the whole Speed Demon crew to help us again. As were pushing the car by hand back out of the junk salt to get it to where the salt is good enough for the push truck not to sink in, Mike Cook there asking what are we going to do. When we tell him were still going to make the backup run he gets on the radio and makes sure to get his entire crew back into place so if there is time left we can make a run. Again the Speed Demon crew helps us go over the car quickly and does it running along side as were pushing it back out of the junk salt and back to the starting line.
Well the fact that we have the class record pretty much let's you all know we made it in time but, without the commitment of Mike Cook, Ron Main and George Poteet we wouldn't. These guys are there to help improve the sport and enjoy it for themselves as well along the way and my hats off to each and every one of them.
Steve,
I had strong suspicions that Mike, Ron and George were men of good character. Thank you sharing.
BR
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In my photography of other incidents I have seen several occasions where the driver put the chute out as he started to spin but all the spoiled air flow caused by the sideways car, just makes the chute sort of follow the car like a lost puppy instead of inflating right away. Many times if the car goes all the way around it does wrap up the chute lines.
I would not be a bit surprised is a similar situation developed for George. Hard to get the chute out into clean air under those conditions.
If the chute is on a long tether it can slide on the ground for a long time before it inflates properly if the air flow is spoiled
http://blackhorsephoto.net/car_tech_chutes/chute_drag_slow_inflation_DSC_4979.jpg
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I've always said that once the car gets about 15deg. off of center, you are no longer a driver, only a passenger.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: