Landracing Forum
Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials => Bville Motorcycle Speed Trials General Chat => Topic started by: Bruin on September 06, 2014, 12:31:20 PM
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First and foremost the event staff should be congratulated for doing a good job under trying conditions. But waiting 6 hours while other riders were hotlapping did not seem right in past and present events. Please consider these suggestions.
1. I read where poor driver compliance to track routes contributed to wait times as well as being unsafe. As some people are visual learners and repetition drives a point home, I suggest explaining the traffic flow with a large map at the riders meeting, posting maps at prestage and the start, and when riders check in at prestage, have the line official who records the bike numbers show the map on the back of a clipboard and get the riders to initial it as acknowledgement.
2. Waiting is always worse when you don't know why you are waiting. Announcing the reason for significant delays on the radio would give the riders some understanding as well as educate them as to what not to do.
3. When one line becomes backed up offer the riders the chance to run on another track to balance the flow and offer equal access to runs.
4. Revisit the 125 rule to thin that group. 100 mph bikes don't slow the traffic significantly more than the 125.
5. Be flexible.
And again, thanks for all you do.
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Well, I was one of the first timers that ran on the 125 course All the way to the 5 mile mark at the end !
As I returned on the return road the marshals red flagged me and called me over, They said Next run you dont have to stay on track all the way until the end after your run, My answer was, Frankly I saw one smoothed out turn off right after the 3 mile finish, After that nothing looked smoothed out to turn on !
Why wouldnt cones or blue lines be there to designate the turn off ? At 3:30pm maybe the turn offs didnt show up like they do earlier. But i sure didnt see them..
I felt bad because I just waited 2 1/2 to 3 hours out there at the start line, Fully Leathered for my run and 100% would not want to hold up any other riders !
After Saturdays Mandatory Riders Meeting, All "New" And "First" time riders should really have to go in a caravan of there support vehicles an see where they are going to race, Any other track you get to walk the course, I didnt have a clue where i was going to run flat out, Until i was on track Running Flat Out !
DRW
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No offense but landspeed may not be your cup of tea.
This may give you a little respect for the records you are running for. They are hard earned.
If you think it is the organization you are wrong. I waited yesterday for eight+ hours to make a pass at WOS. It wasn't the organizations plan that a rider went down or a car spun or whatever the situation was. I was happy I finally got the run in, and will be out there today rain or shine.
Buck up little buddies. It aint easy and the day I have a valet pick up my bike to run it to the start line for me I am out.
Hope to see you guys out there next year. :D
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Makr, I'm not a newbe complaining for the sport of it. I've participated in this LSR event for the last 7 years and that my team has set 4 of those hard earned records. At this year's riders meeting the leadership asked riders to send them suggestions to improve the meet. I complied. Stay positive my friends. :cheers:
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From what I've been told, most of the wasted time on the track was by mistakes made by riders who went the full five, or stopped and didn't know where the return road was. This can happen with first-timers and has to be expected; we just have to accept that it is going to happen. What Bruin suggested should be taken into consideration. Also, what DRW is true - - turning off just anywhere can be a little bumpy, but I made a turn off just after the 2 on Thursday and had no problem doing so even with a hard tail frame.
The one thing that I think all of us might agree upon is that those of us who have paid the extra money to run for a record should be accorded the choice of tracks. Even a 90 mph bike trying to break a record can use the extra mile to gain a few mph which could make the difference between a record or not. And at even 90 mph, only another 45 seconds will be required and I think we are entitled. My first record was at 117 mph, and I used the full 2 miles to get the benefit.
Tom
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I think having all new riders drive the course before racing starts would be a very good idea. Stop at each important flag and explain whet they mean, explain how to turn off, return roads etc.
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I like positive comments..................and so far its all positive. I thought the BEST effort to speed up the GAS line on Sunday was made by the volunteer-team to help seal the tanks. Of course, HAVING GAS AVAILABLE on SATURDAY would be WONDERFUL :-)
When the tracks were closed on Monday due to high-winds............many of the RWB and others would have been very happy to run..........if for nothing other than a test & tune for new builds.
Regarding turn-off lanes.............+1 with Bruan on markers and maybe one or two more graded exits at a decent radius.........and having rookies take a course cruise is a very positive suggestion.
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there was absolutely zero need to have more graded turn offs. We run a 180 mph bike that is heavily modified and much lower than stock and we were able to turn off anywhere with zero issues. If you are afraid of a few little bumps in the salt with a sub 125 mph bike then I agree this kind of racing is probably not for you.
Also I am very much IN FAVOR of the 125 mph+ to tun the 2 mile course rule. We used to run a 115 mph 500 cc bike and my wife was always up to full speed in the first mile. Some of you may think you will go faster if you had an extra mile but I bet most of you would find your speed would be exactly the same.
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After 50+ years on the Salt I have several suggestions if you are unhappy with the event You entered.
Reevaluate where You want to run.
Consider what the event operator went through for you to be able to run.
Build your own track and event. That way you can complain to yourself if you don't like it.
Add any other suggestions that You don't like.
When You have everything perfect, call Mother Nature and beg foregivness.
Some of the most accomplished motorcycle racers in the world have struggled
to even make this event a possibility. You built a bike and expect perfection for
your entry fee. There is a World's Whiner Club.com. Join it.
After 50+ years and 149 trips to Wendover and the flats I haven't seen it all
but you ain't gettin' a virgin. I'll continue to return and there will be more surprises.
If you search history and find the story of Denis Manning and Boris Murray going home
without a run, because it snowed you, may get the message. They paid privite time with the FIM.
You pays your money and you takes your chances. If You can make it better......mortgage your
Social Security Checks,
Have a higher power build a salt flats and You run the show until Higher Power pisses on it
the day before your event.
Ya get the idea Buddy.
FREUD
Glenn Freudenberger
11113 37th DR SE
Everett, WA 98208
fotofreud@aol.com
42-422-6944
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Uh Oh,,, I read what Bruin said and it made me want to comment . In No Way was I getting on any bodys case. Im not that kind of Racer ! Yep, I say racer,, I dont care how long I waited or if i couldnt see the turn off, None of that really bothered me, And to you guys in your late 60s and early 80s,,No way is it not for me.
Truth be told , By going the whole 5 miles in shutoff took a total of about 20 more seconds and I learned the hard way, Wont happen again, And as I said in my first post, No way after waiting did I want to hold up the guys behind me.......
Im 55 and was waiting to run on that hallowed ground since I was a kid watching Breedlove in The Spirit of America. And on the older guy thing, Well i learned 20 years ago, Anyone 20 or more years older than you isnt older, Hes Wiser .
May I say, If I comment again, I will choose my words Very Carefully !
As I first timer,,, Dammmn I cant wait until next year ! I hope I can be a bit more relaxed and meet more of you "Wiser" Guys !
Had a Great time and Loved every minute of Bonneville . Thank you to the Salts Creator, The Organizers , Everyone that made it right for me at this time in life ! DRW
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I'm doin' the math.
An extra mile in 20 seconds is averaging 180 MPH for it.
An extra 2 miles in 20 seconds is averaging 360 MPH for them.
I wasn't there -- I don't know.
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After 50+ years on the Salt I have several suggestions if you are unhappy with the event You entered.
Reevaluate where You want to run.
Consider what the event operator went through for you to be able to run.
Build your own track and event. That way you can complain to yourself if you don't like it.
Add any other suggestions that You don't like.
When You have everything perfect, call Mother Nature and beg foregivness.
Some of the most accomplished motorcycle racers in the world have struggled
to even make this event a possibility. You built a bike and expect perfection for
your entry fee. There is a World's Whiner Club.com. Join it.
After 50+ years and 149 trips to Wendover and the flats I haven't seen it all
but you ain't gettin' a virgin. I'll continue to return and there will be more surprises.
If you search history and find the story of Denis Manning and Boris Murray going home
without a run, because it snowed you, may get the message. They paid privite time with the FIM.
You pays your money and you takes your chances. If You can make it better......mortgage your
Social Security Checks,
Have a higher power build a salt flats and You run the show until Higher Power pisses on it
the day before your event.
Ya get the idea Buddy.
FREUD
Glenn Freudenberger
11113 37th DR SE
Everett, WA 98208
fotofreud@aol.com
42-422-6944
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Rats!
Doc I went to capture your quote and prematurely "POSTED". Must be my youth and inexperience. :)
All I can say is, anyone that has attended 50 years and 149 events very well could be the HIGHER POWER.
BR
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Whew, Never say things in print, Its always takin out of context !
Had a great time in Bonneville !
As with the Name Seldom Seen Slim,, Im gone, Never ever want to be labeled a whiner !
Thats a million percent away from what I was tryin to do or say !
Sorry to all, Never meant to come off that way. Again ,Loved every second of My Bonneville Exp.
DRW.................................. Gone
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Hey, DRW, don't be gone! Go tell your friends what a great place the salt is and give them a few words of wisdom. We want you back!
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It was a new course layout in comparison to the old way of doing things. I was confused a little bit the first time by the return road arrangement. The new course setup seems to work well.
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After 50+ years on the Salt I have several suggestions if you are unhappy with the event You entered.
Reevaluate where You want to run.
Consider what the event operator went through for you to be able to run.
Build your own track and event. That way you can complain to yourself if you don't like it.
Add any other suggestions that You don't like.
When You have everything perfect, call Mother Nature and beg foregivness.
Some of the most accomplished motorcycle racers in the world have struggled
to even make this event a possibility. You built a bike and expect perfection for
your entry fee. There is a World's Whiner Club.com. Join it.
After 50+ years and 149 trips to Wendover and the flats I haven't seen it all
but you ain't gettin' a virgin. I'll continue to return and there will be more surprises.
If you search history and find the story of Denis Manning and Boris Murray going home
without a run, because it snowed you, may get the message. They paid privite time with the FIM.
You pays your money and you takes your chances. If You can make it better......mortgage your
Social Security Checks,
Have a higher power build a salt flats and You run the show until Higher Power pisses on it
the day before your event.
Ya get the idea Buddy.
FREUD
Glenn Freudenberger
11113 37th DR SE
Everett, WA 98208
fotofreud@aol.com
42-422-6944
So much for keeping it positive. :?
Why the vitriol Doc, especially about an event that you don't attend, don't respect, and apparently have no association with. Didn't your mother teach you to keep your mouth shut if you have nothing good to say? :-o
Apparently if you're not one of the self appointed "Salt Gods", running multi-million dollar operations, you really shouldn't even be on the salt, much less have the audacity to attempt to make suggestions about the meet that you do run at, even if the organizers ask you to. :|
To be honest, I can't believe that you even posted this. I've always enjoyed your posts and looked forward to them. Was this just a passing bad mood, or is this how you really feel about all us folks who are behind you on seniority and speed? If this is your real opinion then my estimation of you just went way, way down. :x
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This thread was started by Bruin in good faith that we might be able to make "Positive Suggestions to improve track flow" and I applaud him for starting it. There were not just the few competitors that came forth with suggestions because they thought that things could be improved - - there were many that were unhappy with the new format but may not want to be ridiculed as has happened here. I hope that the voices of the naysayers above will not deter those with suggestions from speaking out. And you, Mr. Freud - - I don't recall having seen you at the event.
Tom
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Bruin is a respected and experienced racer. Rereading his initial post does not reveal anything to get upset about. The suggestions he has are good and not out of line.
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My apologies to Bruin. My post was not intended to turn this thread ugly, just steer it away from petty crying, but I stand by what I posted. :-D
I am a racer. I volunteered this year to help out, as I ran WOS, instead of BMST, as I have in the past. Although I have some insight into how things run, this is not an official statement from the organization, so don't put too much credibility into it. I have limited view of the whole.
1. Maps just don't work. Personally I need to see things first hand. The salt was too fragile to have all of our tow trucks on the course this year. It would have ruined the racing surface. Lets hope for better cooperation from the weather gods for next year, so maybe we can do it. I do agree pre-running the course is good, and we have done it in the past.
2. I have no idea how you would convey every detail of what is going on over the radio. Sometimes patience is a virtue.
3. We did offer to have people run less congested lines when things got backed up out at the starting areas. It is not always an easy transition though once out on course. I lined up in pre-stage to run the Mountain course and was offered to run the international course, so I moved over, and ran there.
4. Having a bike running 61 MPH with two miles of run up on a 150 MPH record is not justified. We all hope our bikes go fast, some are a little too optimistic.
5. You wouldn't believe the flexibility of the guys running the show. It is in a constant flow of change. I was amazed at the professional courtesy, and swift, safe, decisions made by all of them. There HAS to be solid and secure baseline rules or I would think the line of chaos would roll over all of us in a hurry. As far as I know we didn't have one single mishap from calls made by the people working the event.
Flexibility should be shown by the racers. Myself included.
These people (volunteers) who spent their vacation time and own money that make it possible for all of us to race. My hat is off to all of them. Frankly, I had no idea what long, thankless, miserable days these people endure, for me. I will be forever grateful.
Bottom line is, from a volunteers perspective, the BMST is run in a super safe, and efficient way. Safe being the most important part. I know the frustration of waiting in line. Last year I waited at mountain zero for four hours, after a couple in pre-stage, then a guy on a speedway bike went down right before my run and I waited another two hours to get that cleaned up. I am not complaining, just illustrating that delays are on-going, and part of this kind of racing. Most every delay is made by the racers.
I hope to see you all out there next year! Not sure if I will be working or racing or both, but come by and say hi. (I hope this post doesn't piss Delvene off too much)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/superr5/motorcycle/image_zpsc0b5afaf.jpeg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/superr5/media/motorcycle/image_zpsc0b5afaf.jpeg.html)
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Just read the reply from MAKR, Made me remember pulling up to the line to get in on Saturday, The Very First person I met, Was a guy from Orange Co, Calif. Named Dave,, He said rule # 1 is Never , Ever Treat any one in the red shirts bad, Respect them, Because they are here doing what they do for FREE !
I found everyone of them to be a good person and helpful when and where they could be .
And as far as going thru Tech on Saturday, The guys that went over my bike were strict , In fact they checked so much I was starting to worry, But they made me feel at ease and got me through in a timely fashion. So I agree, Thank you all so much for the job you do, so that we can go out and fulfill our dreams.
Im giving myself more days next year, So I have more time to stop and give thanks where needed ! I was only there three days this year and it went by in a blur ! But, Thanks to everyone I came in contact with ! Man, The Bonneville Salt Flats , Cant wait to go back.. DRW
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I would give each starter two helpers, one two cars back and the second four cars back in line, each to keep the racers moving forward or moving them over to the side to let the next in line pass them, while they work on their vehicle or make a movie or what ever. And then the people behind them will have a better idea of when they need to be ready.
Two years ago George, I think it was, did a good job of this and the lines moved along much quicker.
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Hi all.
"Frankly, I had no idea what long, thankless, miserable days these people endure, for me. I will be forever grateful."
Not to start off anything else on this thread, but can I just say in responce to the above. Yes the days are long. Very long in fact, but they are not thankless, nor are they miserable. Last year one of my biggest thrills was being able to tell a rider that she had got her record on a return run. Her reaction to this news made my week. In fact I was down the pub last night telling someone about it, and i was still smiling as I regailed the tale.
Me and she who must be obeyed love coming to BMST. The people we get to meet are great, yes it is hard work, yes we do have to hold people for long periods of time, and sometimes the full information is not to hand to be able to explain why. But there is always good reason. It is very rare that someone really complains about the wait, and generally people will often come up and say thanks at the end of the day.
Some of my best memories have been made at this event. I hope to be able to continue to return and make more memories. I may not be able to drag my bike over the water to race, but I can sure get involved, and make great friends.
looking forward to next year :cheers:
John
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Well said John.
I will volunteer again next year as it really is a ton of fun getting to socialize, and hang out with everyone. I really enjoyed that. There is a great deal of satisfaction that comes from seeing people who make their first run, or finally get a long sought after record.
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Its all good - Love Dr. Freud's take on the subject. - My hat is off to all the Volunteers, you all make it happen so we can come out & play with our "junk".
A little better co ordination with the fuel truck is needed though - spending your 1st half day of racing waiting for fuel ?
Groomed turn outs ? Iam just happy as a pig in a poke with how well the BMST had the tracks groomed, considering with what Mother Nature threw at us this year.
We're in the upper 180's now & can still slow down safe and turn out at or just slightly after the 4 mi. even if its in the crunchies - not a big deal. :cheers:
The importance of attending the drivers meeting cannot be stressed enough. Maybe a small color coded sticker handed out to all who attend the meeting, to be placed on their number plate. The starter can then see when he is calling the tower with the bike number if that individual attended the drivers meeting or not. If he or she did not attend the meeting they should be turned back to the pits to get educated. :-D No more excuses - like I didn't know where this was or that was -
Just a silly idea maybe.
All in all we still had an educational, fun time this year at the 2014 BMST Slush Fest - see you all again next year. :cheers:
Jimbo
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Comet said:
Last year one of my biggest thrills was being able to tell a rider that she had got her record on a return run. Her reaction to this news made my week. In fact I was down the pub last night telling someone about it, and i was still smiling as I regailed the tale.
Was this rider by chance a little Asian girl on a pink bike?
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You know it was :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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haha, yes, it was. I didn't get her name. And even worse, I couldn't get a photo. I would love to have got a photo of her face. or even better a video of her reaction. :-D She was real pleased with that run. Quite rightly so too!
Not sure how "do-able" the stickers at riders meeting woudl be, but it is not a bad idea. I regularly had to explain a few guys that if you are running sub 100's you do not need to trail the bike right out to mike 5. "get off track as early as you can safely do so, and you will all get an extra run at the end of the week".
Does anyone know who the lady in pink is?
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that Lady is Lucille "Cil" Dunn. She is my rider and wife and you made her week when you gave her that result I can tell you. She still talks about that run!!
(http://www.scootershoots.com/BUBMotorcycleSpeedTrials/2013-BUB-Motorcycle-Speed/i-3WPTsLq/3/M/1213A-M.jpg)
(https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/s960x960/10272491_10152200698357535_7723015428318120519_o.jpg)
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Please tell her I said hi. and thanks for the memory.
FANTASTIC.
:-D
John
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I read her your comments and she couldn't stop laughing!! thanks for volunteering!!
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:cheers:
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Just to get back to the OP - Bruin was doing what we all were asked to. Delvene et al can take it into consideration with everything else that's going on.
I have to echo Bruin tho' - while I thought the entire event and everyone involved was brilliant, it was exasperating waiting 6 hours while IT SEEMED other riders were hot lapping some of us. Now, maybe that wasn't the case, but the waiting wasn't bad if all felt equal, (and it wasn't just once, it was the norm) but watching the same folks go round and round on the international course multiple times while I had yet to make a run starts to not feel fair. I paid the same as everyone else.
Again, not being behind the scenes, I can't say for sure what was happening. But if it didn't get communicated back to Delvene, than she'd not have an opportunity to address or dismiss it. So, yes, there is a "perception" among some of us that the wait times were 6+ hrs for some, which basically meant you were only going to get one run in a day and tricky enough to get a return in, but not so long for others. I'm not 100 yrs old, but that's not a complaint, and its not whining, and it certainly doesn't mean I or others shouldn't be there. Its a perception being communicated back to the organizers in good faith and partnership, and becomes part of the arsenal they have to wield an even better event next time.
I intend to run again, and I intend to take the wheels off and volunteer as well.
Thanks Delvene, Thanks Linnea, and thanks to everyone else who made 2014 possible.
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And there is the real issue. I've run in the event for several years, plan to do so again, and every year see the same issue. I understand that they do it this way in an attempt to be fair, but it always seems to work against me rather than in my favor. 8-)
The procedure is to alternate between start lines, i.e. 10 bikes from mountain 0, then 10 from mountain 1, then return runs. Wash rinse repeat. On the surface this seems like the most fair way to do it, but it presents a problem when you have significantly more bikes running from one start line. For an exaggerated example, if there are 100 bikes running from mountain 1, and 10 bikes from mountain 0, each of the mountain 0 bikes gets 10 runs for every one run of a mountain 1 bike. Remember that every competitor pays the same entry fee, and regardless of the displacement or speed likely has a similar "life investment" in his/her effort to be there.
By requiring all slower bikes to run from the 1 (which I have done voluntarily in the past, and actually had to request permission to do it one year when it was RWYB only and they were hot lapping while we sat and waited at the 0 !) you are forcing exactly this situation.
I agree with Bruin that this is a real issue that needs serious consideration to make sure that all competitors, regardless of speed or displacement, have equal opportunities to get runs in. Perhaps by counting the number of bikes in line and increasing the number released from a given start line during the cycle to help that line catch up? I don't really have the answer, just hope that this helps clarify the issue.
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I was going to part of the VW contingent this year but had a little issue about the E85 my street car runs not being a recognized fuel for participation in the 130mph class, still scratching my head over that one, (OK that was my Whine, I'm over it now),,,,,,
BUT I've heard several of sighs of discontent from the guys that were there about the time setting at the line/in the lanes waiting to go. One gentleman said he only got in 3 runs the whole weekend and got shut off at the front of the line after waiting 4.5 hours when they closed the course...... .. ...
Maybe the shutting down of the back of the lanes and then running everyone who's there out and not letting the 'starting from the 1' jump in there (everyone pulls a 'number' when you're ready to run (hit the lanes) and when your number is called.. you go .. .) might be a couple of really good suggestions for the future .. ..
I truly appreciate the volunteers who make this happen,,, they make the world go around
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Thanks WhizzbangK.C.!
You were perceptively able to summarize my own experience much better than I ever could.
Your post, along with Bruin's OP, would effectively summarize what I think was the only real detriment to the experience - hopefully Rex and Delvene will parse those thoughts from the chaff. As almost everyone intimates, its not an easy issue to address or solve, but if efforts need to be focused anywhere, its on this issue.
And none of this takes away from the awe and admiration I still have for the staff, organizers and volunteers, who contributed to the other 99% positive experience I had!