Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Seldom Seen Slim on July 26, 2014, 10:16:57 AM
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Here's another one about the courses:
It has been decided to do away with the quarter-mile markers -- black plastic drapes over PVC uprights. It was thought that there's too much hazard in them if and when they're hit by motorcycle racers (been there, done that, no fun :-D). But without those markers it's difficult for some of the car drivers to see the edges of the course. Lines are still there, but if the driver is in a very low vehicle with limited side vision -- chances are he might not see the lines. So therefore I post this. I got yesterday and will post using the text that came with it.
Course Marking
The SCTA has decided to remove all ¼ mile black bag markers between the mile markers at Bonneville.
This decision was made because of the danger to the motorcycle riders from the PVC pipe that held the black bags.
With the advent of the new lines, the board thought that would be all that we would need to mark the courses.
George Poteet and many other HI speed competitors feel that up 1/4 markers or flags are essential for safety and to keep the vehicle on course for hi-speed vehicles
Scott Andrews came up with a new foam marker that is highly visible with no PVC that we can use as ¼ mile markers.
At the last board meeting the board gave permission to the Speed Demon crew to put down the new foam markers at every ¼ mile between the mile markers on course one.
Provided that the Speed Demon pay all costs and provide all the labor for installation of the new foam markers.
Ron said he does not think the new lines will be magic, he thinks the course can’t ever be marked enough. Ron said he and George have made more and faster passes than anyone; having watched all the in car video from runs with the black line and without, Ron knows we need the 1/4 markers from the 0 mile on. George’s comment on the black line last year is that it was useless and we have run with no lines for a decade.
“We need a HERO”
Speed Demon will be providing the ¼ mile markers for course one.
But we now need a sponsor for course two.
The cost is only about $1,500.00.
You can help save someone life by making the course safer.
Call Ron Main w. 818-998-7848-cell 818-523-7005
Scott Andrews w. (818) 700-1030 cell (818) 419-8074
Watch this video and pay close attention to the blue lines that SCTA put down last year.
(They are on each side along the black bags and mile markers)
Please watch every vehicle run down the course!
See if you can see them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rt2MYQ_jGY
Here is a video of a run during the test and tune at Bonneville.
USFRA put down blue lines down on both sides of the course for 6 miles and also a center line for 5 miles!
Try to see the lines, but you will see the ¼ markers!!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUrDCXj5S6s&feature=youtu.be&list=UUudh2K7DaZfmUIiOXH-DYzw
Finding the course 2013
Flashpoint Liner Speed Week 2013 Course
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0NR_kQuCKY
Watch how Flashpoint uses the black bags to center car on course.
This is the rear cam on Flashpoint there are blue lines on each side of the course for
6 miles (really) in line with the flags. Can you see them???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUrDCXj5S6s&feature=youtu.be
Don’t get me wrong I think the lines are great addition to the markings of the track, but if you get a little off the course you will need the ¼-mile course markers to find your way back to the course again.
End of copy-and-paste
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Jon;
You're right-- the lines along side the track were completely invisible. Maybe it's time to consider separate courses for bikes and cars-- the flags can be chosen for visibility & safety for each vehicle. Or separate meets?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14189.0;attach=47359;image)
“We need a HERO”
Speed Demon will be providing the ¼ mile markers for course one.
But we now need a sponsor for course two.
The cost is only about $1,500.00.
You can help save someone life by making the course safer.
Call Ron Main w. 818-998-7848-cell 818-523-7005
Scott Andrews w. (818) 700-1030 cell (818) 419-8074
I'd also like 1/4 mile markers on both long courses and will be calling today and pledging $100 for markers for course 2. I've only been down the long course once and can use all the help I can get.
How about it anyone else? If any of you are going to be running faster and on the long course, especially for the first time, please give serious thought to supporting this. Any amount will sure help, and you don't have to be a driver/participant. Anyone could support this effort and make a better/safer meet for all. As a spectator it is also easier to see where the courses are and what is happening with the 1/4 mile markers marking the course,
Sum
(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14189.0;attach=47361;image)
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Sum. PM sent
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To those of you who have seen the pictures of my spin at the WF's in 2012, one shot shows the PVC pipe and garbage bag flying thru the air.
What it doesn't show is the drivers window it broke, the large dent in the drivers door, and the bent stainless trim around the back glass. If it would have broken the back glass, the entire body would need to be removed to replace it.
Just to add insult to injury, I also ripped the tread off of two 30" Mickey's ($1700.) sliding sideways thru the rough stuff................. ugh, all this and I still missed running down Stan Back (who was still at the starting line if you know what I mean).
Ol' One Run, out............................. :-o :roll: :-D
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I talked to Scott and he said for those that want to contribute to this to send in a check to Joann at the SCTA office and mark it for "Course Marker Fund":
SCTA
P.O. Box 10
Orosi, CA 93647-0010
If it is easier you could PayPal me and send me a PM telling me the amount and that it is for the course markers and not my site I'll be glad to get the money to them also. There is a 'donate button' here ...
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bonneville-Index.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bonneville-Index.html)
Also if you donate and want to post the amount on this thread or PM me the amount I'll keep a running total here..
Course Marker Fund Total:
7-26-14..... $100.00 ... Lloyd -- nomobux - Ellensburg, WA. -- Check to SCTA
7-26-14..... $100.00 ... Sumner -- Blanding, UT -- (MC to SCTA--mine and other PayPall donations)
7-26-14..... $100.00 ... Sparky - Phoenix, AZ -- PayPal
7-26-14..... $100.00 ... Scott -- Beairsto Racing - Alberta Canada -- PayPal
7-26-14..... $100.00 ... Willi -- Kraut Bros. (Salt) - Santa Barbara, CA --PayPal
7-27-14..... $100.00 ... Tim -- azgearhed - Phoenix, AZ -- PayPal
7-27-14..... $100.00 ... Doug -- Buickguy3 -Columbus, MT -- PayPal
7-28-14..... $100.00 ... Ron Gibson - Omaha, NE -- Check to SCTA
7-28-14..... $50.00 ... Mike -- 4-barrel Mike - Portland, OR -- PayPal
Total......... $850.00 as of 7-28-14
Other Donations:
BobDcuda -- Check sent to SCTA
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Slim, who sent you this info?
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Sum I am in for a hun. will follow up later --- I would like to have them on other than just one course!!
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Just want you fellas to run safe. My hun is in the mail per Sum's instructions.
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Sum,
$100 sent via paypal.
Thanks for organizing this.
Scott
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Jim, I got this information from Ron Main and Scott Andrews. I didn't post the photo that was included - of Ron swinging one of the foam thingies like a baseball bat. If you really want me to do so I'll send that one to you - but save the rest of us from that particular shot - please. :evil:
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The odds are whoever voted against having 1/4 markers sure doesn't drive a Liner or a laydown lakester --- the 1/4 markers HELP ME for sure :cheers:
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Thanks guys we are doing great, but one doesn't have to put in $100.....$5.00 -- $10.00 -- ???. It will all help,
Sumner
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A great big THANK YOU to Ron, Scott,v& Sum for taking the lead on this and to SSS for making it possible!!
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'Splain to me why a piece of flexible foam on a stake should cost about $25. :? Or is that including installation... :roll:
I'm not intending to detract from the importance of this effort- just puzzled by the cost. And also- curious just HOW DO you put those foot-long stakes into the salt?
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Since I am known for asking questions, I must ask why would you want these expensive pieces of foam? Have any tests been done on them, to see what the results are? I have seen funny cars hit foam on the race track at the drags that cover the timing lights and they do damage to the cars. So one of my questions is where is the data on these units?
IMO what would be wrong with using 3 foot black balloons on other courses, using regular compressed air to fill them. We use them all the time at El Mirage, but there we use Helium and float them 15 feet in the air. Helium is expensive, and at Bonneville you could just use compressed air and tie them to the salt with an anchor. Pretty simple really and the cost would be much cheaper especially when bought in quantity. Sorry I don't have any data on hitting a balloon.
Tom G.
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Sum, sent $100 via paypal for course marker fund. Plus, a little "sumpthin" to keep your site going.
Foam, balloons, flags, we don't care, let's just mark the course properly.
Willi
Kraut Bros.
#426
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When I ran my Indian in 2012 (first visit from the UK) the 1/4 mile markers were a godsend. I didn't run that fast, but by counting the markers I knew where I was & when to open it up. In light winds my bike was shifting the full width of the course & without the markers I would have been on the rough salt. Am I right in thinking there will be a centre line marked this year? There wasn't one in 2012.
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'Splain to me why a piece of flexible foam on a stake should cost about $25. :? Or is that including installation... :roll:
I'm not intending to detract from the importance of this effort- just puzzled by the cost. And also- curious just HOW DO you put those foot-long stakes into the salt?
Actually about $31.25 a piece as 6 are needed per mile if we go to the 8 mile, 48 total. In this day and age where it is hard to get volunteers to do anything and people pay for about everything I guess if they have to have some business do these then that isn't a bad price. How many of us would make these for the cause on our time and if we were doing if for profit what would we charge? This late in the game if they are going to get done they are probably going to have to pay someone to make them. I'm going to try and catch Scott today and make sure there is still time to have these made.
I think we all like to watch the videos of peoples runs and watch the 1/4 mile markers go by and say to ourselves he is at the 3, the 3 1/4, the 3 1/2, etc.. That will also be gone for those of us that go along for the ride in the car with the driver.
Another point to be considered is if you data log your run and video it you can see what your car speed is at each quarter mile. From the video you know the seconds from the start of the run to the end of the run. You data log also shows data at every second. By knowing how many seconds you are in the run at say the 2 1/5 you can look at your RPM at the same number of seconds and know your speed. This gives you some comparable data to use. Right now most of us use the 2 1/4 time but more can be better. Our 3, 4, and 5 mile times are averages and we don't know for instance what our speed was at the 4 1/4.
So besides the safety aspect there is the visual aspect to any of us viewing run videos and the importance of more useable data from us running a car. How much is that worth to any of us?
Sum
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I think Tom has a good idea. The car dealers use large ones (maybe 2-foot) and they'll last all weekend. And they come in bright colors.
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I think Tom has a good idea. The car dealers use large ones (maybe 2-foot) and they'll last all weekend. And they come in bright colors.
Ditto on that one!!
Sid.
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I think Tom has a good idea. The car dealers use large ones (maybe 2-foot) and they'll last all weekend. And they come in bright colors.
If you don't use helium how are they going to fly? If they are down on the ground have we accomplished much?
There are probably a number of solutions that will work, but right now we are dealing with an event that starts in less than 2 weeks.
In the long run I think the foam might be cheaper than filling and maintaining balloons for a week long meet on two 5 mile courses vs. the 1 1/3 mile EM course where the balloons only have to last a couple days at most. Hopefully once purchased/made the foam will last a number of years,
Sumner
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I think you've overlooked a great solution here. How 'bout supporting the air-filled balloon with skyhooks that have air-hanger-anchors? The balloons with hang down from the sky hooks, there'll be no need to refill when the slippery helium leaks out, there won't be anything for the race vehicle to hit if it crosses the course-edge line, and thanks to the anchored hangers they'll stay in place.
Problem solved! :cheers: :cheers:
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Thanks for your actions Sum-sent you a PM and sent my donation to your site-and Jon- fairly good idea as the skyhooks are cheap, but they are hard to find.
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I've come up with a refined idea about the skyhook-mounted balloons. We could fill them with hydrogen and some powdered magnesium, and that way when they get knocked about by a vehicle hitting them they'd explode with a nice, bright flash so we'd know just where the course was crossed.
Yeah, that's even better.
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So-will you be asking for hydrogen and magnesium donations or do you already have?
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A two-foot diameter bright orange balloon filled with cheap air and tied to the ground would be a lot easier to see (and less expensive) than the foam sticks. A lot more surface area.
And you could use orange on the way to the five, red thereafter.
Use your imagination -- take a look at a tree limb from a 1/2 mile and a 2-foot bright ball.
And this is from a guy who hates most new ideas. Please don't discount this so easily.
Stan
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Stan, if you fill the balloons with air -- they'll sit on the ground, right? After all, air and a balloons is heavier than air, so we're back to something on the ground. Will a two-foot (dia.) balloon be big enough? And how would you tie it to the ground without using something that might (repeat might) become a sharp item that could, theoretically, puncture a tire?
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A two-foot balloon is sure as helll bigger in area than those stakes.
Drive one of those big 10 or 12-inch nails into the ground and tie the imbedded valve to them. I'd bet the balloon would disintegrate before pulling one of them out. I'd rather hit the balloon than one of the timing lights (maybe we should do away with them in safety's name).
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A two-foot balloon is sure as helll bigger in area than those stakes.
Drive one of those big 10 or 12-inch nails into the ground and tie the imbedded valve to them. I'd bet the balloon would disintegrate before pulling one of them out. I'd rather hit the balloon than one of the timing lights (maybe we should do away with them in safety's name).
I'm still ditto-ing Stan.
Sid.
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Ah-hah! Now I get it. I was imagining that the balloon would be tethered to the spike via a piece of string or cord. I yield the point - tying directly to the nail would keep the balloon in place.
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Since I am known for asking questions, I must ask why would you want these expensive pieces of foam? Have any tests been done on them, to see what the results are? I have seen funny cars hit foam on the race track at the drags that cover the timing lights and they do damage to the cars. So one of my questions is where is the data on these units?
IMO what would be wrong with using 3 foot black balloons on other courses, using regular compressed air to fill them. We use them all the time at El Mirage, but there we use Helium and float them 15 feet in the air. Helium is expensive, and at Bonneville you could just use compressed air and tie them to the salt with an anchor. Pretty simple really and the cost would be much cheaper especially when bought in quantity. Sorry I don't have any data on hitting a balloon.
Tom G.
Tom, the foam blocks at the drag races only have two reflectors on them no electrics and they are not anchord to the track.
Glen
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My check's in the mail, direct to the SCTA office.
Is there any reason the SCTA/BNI couldn't kick in the difference to have markers on both #1 and #2, since they'll be saving on the usual, overall expense for four courses?
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'Splain to me why a piece of flexible foam on a stake should cost about $25. :? Or is that including installation... :roll:
I'm not intending to detract from the importance of this effort- just puzzled by the cost. And also- curious just HOW DO you put those foot-long stakes into the salt?
Actually about $31.25 a piece as 6 are needed per mile if we go to the 8 mile, 48 total.
Sum
Sum,
Don't forget you will need replacements on hand for the ones that get destroyed. How many I do not know.
Tom G.
If you don't use helium how are they going to fly? If they are down on the ground have we accomplished much?
There are probably a number of solutions that will work, but right now we are dealing with an event that starts in less than 2 weeks.
Sumner
Sum,
I think the balloons would be more visible than you think, but that is my opinion. Another thought is that these foam units take up a lot of room, and we do haul everything up and back.
Here is another option that I just saw in Wally world this morning and they are all of $3.88 each, but I found them pretty cheap when bought in quantity. They looked to be 5' tall and about 3" in diameter with what looked like a 1" hole through them. They are called Swim noodles, and come in all different colors, and are made of closed cell foam. Just Google Swim noodles.
Tom G.
Tom, the foam blocks at the drag races only have two reflectors on them no electrics and they are not anchord to the track.
Glen
Thanks Glen. It dawned on me that I was wrong on the timing lights, but by the time the light bulb went on I could not change my post. Thanks again.
Tom G.
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I talked to Scott this morning and he said that with the response here that the 2nd course and now possibly even the one short course will be marked. He is going to make sure that the markers will be made (he has commitments from others on that) and that extras will be on hand also.
We have to remember that SW is just next weekend for some of the course workers so this has to move forward right now. For now lets just get the markers done and up and then work on other possible ideas for next year.
Thanks to everyone who has responded to this and maybe a different thread should be started with ideas for the future,
Sum
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Here's what the battery and photocell do to the car at 219 mph. I know that was the speed because it recorded it when I hit it. Cringe when I think what would have happened if I had been over a couple of more inches. The pvc standard also went through the right front tire.
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As part of the Jack Rogers team we have all spent a lot of time talking about course markers etc. Over the winter and this spring I started working with Utah State University Extension to see what biodegradable options for marking are out there. I work as part of USU Extension and spent a lot of time talking over the marking dyes that they currently use in their weed control program and for layout etc., especially on BLM properties. As part of that conversation we began talking to Dow Chemical about some of the marking dyes that they have available, their properties, and also what else they have available that may not be commonly known.
Gary Wilkinson is using similar dyes currently and we have talked a little bit about the options and will continue that conversation.
I can offer to do 3' or so circles on the course as demarcation for each 1/4 mi. with the biodegradable dyes and do the upkeep during the event for a trial at the event here. This would be done at no cost to the SCTA etc. for the trial. If it is on the course itself it is visible to the drivers as they can see the course in front of them. Having difficulty to see the lines on the edges of the course can be understandable.
I think there is a lot of room for great ideas, like those that have been thrown out throughout this thread, and I think we should be trying some of these ideas and getting direct racer feedback and analyzing it as a whole land speed racing group for the safety of all competitors and also for the visibility each of us desires when making a pass.
Thoughts anyone?
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I think the problem is that markers on the salt surface are not very visible-- sometimes not visible at all. The markers need to be raised a few feet above the ground.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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If anybody has a better idea (simple & impact safe) than Tom's balloons, I'd like to hear it!
Sid.
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Just in case what I was offering was misunderstood I will reiterate. I am not saying to not do the other options such as balloons, great idea by the way, I am offering as an on top of option. With the dye there could be markers on the salt in the middle of the course. If we can see the course directly in front of the vehicle we would be able to see markers that were there. They would not change the consistency of the course etc. It would just be adding demarcation on the course surface itself as a visual marker for videos and during any of our passes along the course during the run.
Hopefully that is a little more clear of what I meant if that was unclear.
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mmorgan,
If the balloon idea was implemented, an interesting idea would be to mark a 2-3' circle under where the 1/4mi balloons went and mark it deeper and with more dye than the course lines. That way when a balloon was run over then it would be easy for course workers to find the location to re-attach a new balloon.
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I think there is a lot of room for great ideas, like those that have been thrown out throughout this thread, and I think we should be trying some of these ideas and getting direct racer feedback and analyzing it as a whole land speed racing group for the safety of all competitors and also for the visibility each of us desires when making a pass.
Thoughts anyone?
Mike,
I agree.
Tom G.
I can offer to do 3' or so circles on the course as demarcation for each 1/4 mi. with the biodegradable dyes and do the upkeep during the event for a trial at the event here. This would be done at no cost to the SCTA etc. for the trial. If it is on the course itself it is visible to the drivers as they can see the course in front of them. Having difficulty to see the lines on the edges of the course can be understandable.
Mike,
Thanks for the offer. You would have to ask the powers to be if it would be OK. But I again thank you for the offer of your time and materials.
Tom G.
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Not having markers above ground level is a big problem for lay-down cars when your line of sight is so low. I really wonder how SCTA missed this point.
Sid.
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USFRA tried balloons. Apparently helium is a small molecule, the balloons self deflated after a couple of days. Cars passing near but not hitting the balloons made them rip loose from their anchors. We were using Mylar balloons.
Gary
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Sure -- you've probably seen how helium (kid's) balloons go soft a few days after the celebration. Mylar, as you suggested, is good -- can hold the He for weeks and beyond.
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We raced with just mile markers for several years... it sucked! The new Guard at the scta must not have been there then. It basically means you can see 3-4 pairs of markers defining the course, not enough since they are a mile apart and can get lost in the mirage.
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.... The new Guard at the scta must not have been there then. It basically means you can see 3-4 pairs of markers defining the course, not enough since they are a mile apart and can get lost in the mirage.
Not sure how the decision was reached to only have mile markers or who the parties were that came to it but at this point Scott (SCTA President -- SCTA's BNI Representative) is making sure that we will have the markers probably on the 3 main courses. I don't personally know Scott, but just called him the other day and he has been more than receptive. I couldn't ask for more than that.
I have a feeling the main reason for eliminating the old quarter mile markers was based on safety concerns for anyone hitting them. Of course that raised the problem of racers not knowing where the course was :cry:. It looks like we have a solution for this year and if it doesn't pan out then something else can be considered for the future,
Sum
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Maybe ten years ago, at the drivers meeting, they told us of a particularly rough spot on 1, down about the 3, that was about 30 feet wide and ten feet deep. They'd marked it with lots of green dye.
We drove the course in our chase vehicles right after the meeting, and sure enuf, there it was.
Made a really early run right thereafter, in our roadster, not a low one either, and at 200 never saw it.
I don't think marking the ground will do it.
There's no reason I can think of of not filling the balloons with good ol' cheap air. They'll sit on the ground. They could be marked with a dye circle for maintenance. They could be easily replaced during the day, and moved when a course is moved -- not easily done with a big dye mark, even if it could be seen.
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Maybe use a big tethered beach ball?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I'd vote for a 3' or 4' tethered balloon. Would be as visible as present markers. In the meantime I sent a hundred to SCTA for this year.
Ron
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We raced with just mile markers for several years... it sucked! The new Guard at the scta must not have been there then. It basically means you can see 3-4 pairs of markers defining the course, not enough since they are a mile apart and can get lost in the mirage.
Yes but we also had big black oil lines on edges and center of the course, now outlawed. I ran a mostly lay down streamliner and could see the center black line ok. Now, with no lines, only having mile markers would indeed, suck. I think the foam stuff will still whack a bike rider pretty hard so I vote for balloons too and every quarter mile.
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One problem I had with the black center line was it wasn't strait enough. In a low car the line was very annoying at 220 mph.
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Here's what happens when a bike rider goes through an orange marker at 200.
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/IMG_0704_zps48e7a8cc.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/IMG_0704_zps48e7a8cc.jpg.html)
Here's Todd taking a look at my hands, and from here you can (sort of) see the front end damage to the bike. The crossbar of the flag holder hit the windshield and folded/forced it down hard enough to crack the electronic dashboard rendering the bike to "no engine running" status. Damage also included bending the clutch lever back far enough that the clutch would no longer disengage:
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Bonneville%20in%20general/IMG_0699_zps4ce5b192.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/Bonneville%20in%20general/IMG_0699_zps4ce5b192.jpg.html)
I wear kevlar long underwear - pants and shirt. Whap it with a piece of PVC at two bills and it was strong enough to give me some abrasions through the leathers and the kevlar:
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/IMG_0707_zps072dd9ca.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/IMG_0707_zps072dd9ca.jpg.html)
It hit this knuckle of the carbon fiber-reinforced gloves and kind of smashed the middle and lower joint of my left hand:
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/IMG_0710_zpsb331c6cd.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/IMG_0710_zpsb331c6cd.jpg.html)
The crossbar even managed to ding and scrape my helmet (it's sort of hard to see in the bright photo):
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Bonneville%20in%20general/IMG_0712_zps11df8a18.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/Bonneville%20in%20general/IMG_0712_zps11df8a18.jpg.html)
The moral of the story is - don't concentrate so much on the tachometer that you don't see where you're going, and: don't hit the mile markers if you can help it.
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I'm pretty sure this face shield would not have stopped the PVC tube that clobbered this helmet.
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Ivjust got an email from Scott Andrews - saying that all three "regular" courses will have the new foam markers. Sure hope they work out well -- lots of time and $$ invested in this experiment. Thanks for your discussion and support - from Scott and me. :cheers:
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A big vinyl plastic beach ball doesn't require helium, it is filled with low-pressure air and sits on the ground. If ones about 4ft diameter were tied down they should be visible-- and cheap. Put green ones on the side for a normal turnout and red ones on the side for an emergency turnout. You could even put blue ones on both sides of the last half-mile to indicate the end of the course.
http://www.beachballs.com/48-inch-solid-green-beach-balls-inflated-diameter-35in-88cm.asp
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I think a beach ball would likely drop a bike on impact.
Sid.
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Here's what happens when a bike rider goes through an orange marker at 200.
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/IMG_0704_zps48e7a8cc.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/IMG_0704_zps48e7a8cc.jpg.html)
Here's Todd taking a look at my hands, and from here you can (sort of) see the front end damage to the bike. The crossbar of the flag holder hit the windshield and folded/forced it down hard enough to crack the electronic dashboard rendering the bike to "no engine running" status. Damage also included bending the clutch lever back far enough that the clutch would no longer disengage:
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Bonneville%20in%20general/IMG_0699_zps4ce5b192.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/Bonneville%20in%20general/IMG_0699_zps4ce5b192.jpg.html)
I wear kevlar long underwear - pants and shirt. Whap it with a piece of PVC at two bills and it was strong enough to give me some abrasions through the leathers and the kevlar:
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/IMG_0707_zps072dd9ca.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/IMG_0707_zps072dd9ca.jpg.html)
It hit this knuckle of the carbon fiber-reinforced gloves and kind of smashed the middle and lower joint of my left hand:
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/IMG_0710_zpsb331c6cd.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/IMG_0710_zpsb331c6cd.jpg.html)
The crossbar even managed to ding and scrape my helmet (it's sort of hard to see in the bright photo):
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Bonneville%20in%20general/IMG_0712_zps11df8a18.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/Bonneville%20in%20general/IMG_0712_zps11df8a18.jpg.html)
The moral of the story is - don't concentrate so much on the tachometer that you don't see where you're going, and: don't hit the mile markers if you can help it.
Slim, You should try going between the markers not through them :-o :-o
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Johnboy, tell that to Joe Amo and Sam Wheeler and whomever else has also gone through the markers. I know there are more of "us". And moving along at that speed it was, for me at least, quite a surprise. I was studying the tach watching for wheelspin and looked up. I had time enough to think "Oh, F*CK" before I hit it. No time to steer, no time to do anything but think and swear. :evil:
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Each one of those foam weenies is a fifth or at best a quarter the size of the old black trash bag markers. For comparison:
(http://prometheus.med.utah.edu/~bwjones/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Studebaker-away.jpg)
I can usually see the black markers down past to about the 3 mile when I'm standing on the starting line. Those weenies are going to disappear after about a mile IMO. And the fourth course, which is usually where all the rookies make their first run, isn't getting 1/4 mile markers at all. That should make for some exciting times.
+1 for safety, -1 for visibility which is really a -1 for safety.
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A 3' balloon holds about a pound of air . Slightly lighter t
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A 3' balloon holds about a pound of air . Slightly lighter than the pvc pipe .
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I think a beach ball would likely drop a bike on impact.
Sid.
My guess is that it would be like hitting an air bag in car in a crash.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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A 3' balloon holds about a pound of air . Slightly lighter than the pvc pipe .
... and a lot more surface area to cushion the impact. A PVC pipe would cause more injury that a light vinyl plastic bag full of low-pressure air...I think. :?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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The schedule 80 PVC does ugly things. [Like punch holes in the tire]
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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That looks like you hit more than just PVC. Even your disk looks bent.
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ya white pvc and white salt is hard to see and pickup :cry:
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I just cant keep quiet any more,
1. In flight training the rule was "first fly the airplane" meaning do not get distracted by what is going on inside the cockpit.
2. Bill Taylor told me every time I left the line, "be safe, have fun, go fast - AND THE THROTTLE WORKS BOTH WAYS".
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ya white pvc and white salt is hard to see and pickup :cry:
I had the PVC changed to gray years ago as Mike K mentioned. Some where I have a picture of Ro Yale wher the car hit a mile marker flipped up busted out his wind screen and his face sheild, he was lucky with only a few cuts on his face.
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If you don't use helium how are they going to fly? If they are down on the ground have we accomplished much?
Should not need helium at Bonneville. A standard black trash bag inflated about 2/3s, tied off and left in bright sun will self inflate like a hot air balloon with enough buoyancy to stand up vertically.
May not lift off the surface but it will not lay flat on the ground, you just need to give it a bit or room to expand when you partially fill it and tie it off.
Cooling winds or cloud cover would make them "wilt" but worth an experiment to see what would happen with very light weight plastic bags like the 1.2 - 1.4 mil bags.
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If you don't use helium how are they going to fly? If they are down on the ground have we accomplished much?
Should not need helium at Bonneville. A standard black trash bag inflated about 2/3s, tied off and left in bright sun will self inflate like a hot air balloon with enough buoyancy to stand up vertically.
May not lift off the surface but it will not lay flat on the ground, you just need to give it a bit or room to expand when you partially fill it and tie it off.
Cooling winds or cloud cover would make them "wilt" but worth an experiment to see what would happen with very light weight plastic bags like the 1.2 - 1.4 mil bags.
It's been tried and with any breeze moving them around can confuse the driver.
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At about the 3 mile there was a West cross-wind. I had to put about 1/4 turn Left rudder into the steering wheel. As I passed through a soft/moist spot in the Salt, a mist came up and I thought I was going through a fog bank. When I realized that it was dry Salt on the canopy, the next thing I saw was the 4 mile banner dead ahead. I pulled the chute as I hit it. Not sure how long it took to cover that mile, but looking back I'm not sure what I would have done different. When the tread width is only 33 inches quick changes in steering input aren't good.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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I've never driven too much over 200 but I like the black bags. I can see them a long way down the course and they helped a lot on shut down and turn out.
I started back when there was 3 lines and cones and did OK. The was a time when there were orange trash bags too and that was good.
I personally think bigger is better as long as we can keep them up in the wind.
Driving is total concentration with eyes forward and a brain attached to your right foot or right hand. Sometimes backing off is the right thing to do. Bonneville isn't the place to be driving thru any situation....
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:cheers: :cheers: spot on JD
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After hitting the 2 mile marker flag pole and cutting it off at 137 mph at BUBs (retrieved several pieces inside my fairing), I was given a valuable tip by another rider - - "memorize the horizon when you're on the starting line." This is quite easy to do when making a down run as floating mountain is usually in view, but maybe not always. It has helped me immensely to keep centered.
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What would work better but be twice as expensive is two foam weenies per marker location and then drape a black trash bag over it and whamo, you have the same thing as before but much safer. Shall we start a donation fund?
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After hitting the 2 mile marker flag pole and cutting it off at 137 mph at BUBs (retrieved several pieces inside my fairing), I was given a valuable tip by another rider - - "memorize the horizon when you're on the starting line." This is quite easy to do when making a down run as floating mountain is usually in view, but maybe not always. It has helped me immensely to keep centered.
I have never ridden a M/C at speed on the salt, Just cars. So forgive my potential ignorance but I have to ask. How is it possible to hit a course marker going only 137 MPH?
Is the vibration a problem, making things difficult to see?
Was there an unexpected crosswind?
Is your tuck position such that the helmet make it difficult to see?
Are grooves in the salt leading you around?
Is aero buffeting shaking you so much you lose visual details but can still see the big picture (floating mountain)?
From your description it sounds like you still have the ability to keep centered if you had a better a frame of reference. Is that true?
JR
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I'm pretty sure this face shield would not have stopped the PVC tube that clobbered this helmet.
I'm pretty sure the PVC tube wouldn't have clobbered Fogie's helmet if he hadn't driven through the marker. :-D :wink:
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After hitting the 2 mile marker flag pole and cutting it off at 137 mph at BUBs (retrieved several pieces inside my fairing), I was given a valuable tip by another rider - - "memorize the horizon when you're on the starting line." This is quite easy to do when making a down run as floating mountain is usually in view, but maybe not always. It has helped me immensely to keep centered.
I have never ridden a M/C at speed on the salt, Just cars. So forgive my potential ignorance but I have to ask. How is it possible to hit a course marker going only 137 MPH?
Is the vibration a problem, making things difficult to see?
Was there an unexpected crosswind?
Is your tuck position such that the helmet make it difficult to see?
Are grooves in the salt leading you around?
Is aero buffeting shaking you so much you lose visual details but can still see the big picture (floating mountain)?
From your description it sounds like you still have the ability to keep centered if you had a better a frame of reference. Is that true?
JR
Partial streamliner, head down, 16 mph crosswind, plus inexperience. I'm not sure how far apart the course markers were at Bub's, but I lost my line and then the marker came up directly ahead. Yes, even at 137 mph, it is impossible to make a correction when the marker is dead ahead. Point is, take a horizon reference before you start and keep it centered. I've made dozens of runs since with no problem.
Tom
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Nathan, you're close to what it's likely gonna be. Two foamies at each location with a black drape to make them even more visible. that's the Board consensus.
By the way, most of the ideas that have been propounded here were, indeed, thought of by the Board folks, too. Balloons work at EM -- but that's a one day meet. Even when it's two days -- the balloons get replaced for day #2 because the wind overnight will blow them so much that the balloon touches the lakebed surface - and pow, there goes the balloon. The helium leaks out, yes, but over a day or so it doesn't leak all that much.
A vinyl or plastic balloon might last -- but there's heavy and won't tear upon being hit. A balloon held in place by a fiberglass rod probably wouldn't hit the surface - but the rod, even if it's pretty thin - would be too much of a whap if hit from speed.
And so on. I guess we'll have to trust that the ideas were examined and that the foam weiners will be the best to keep the courses edges visible.
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Speed Demon to pay all labor cost to install foam markers? Justin Coffman, crew member, is in charge of course markers this year and has been installing the 1/4 mile markers for years. Does this mean
That the course marker crew will not be installing the 1/4 mile makers and if they do, do they get a raise :?
Cost to install 1/4 markers has been part of BNI expenses for years, SCTA/BNI has to ding Speed Demon for labor? SCTA should be greatful to Speed Demon for supplying the markers.
Thanks George and Ron :cheers:
JL222
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Ask Scott Andrews and Ron Main about the various ways to pay for the labor installing the markers. It all started when George said he couldn't see the lines from his chair in the Speed Demon. The team therefore will do the work on course #1. The idea hit home after some more talking by Ron and especially Scott - so now both long courses will have the markers and I think course #3 is set for them, too. But who will install them and who will pay for that work - I dunno. i wonder if I'll get asked to check them at the end of each day, for instance, when I'm out there checking on the toilets. :?
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I think we should use the porta-potties for course markers! They are highly visible and people complain they are to far apart and can never find them!
Steve a.k.a. "trash picker"
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So the $31.25 per price... is that per weenie or per marker position which sounds like it's going to be two weenies and one bag?
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I'd surely help set them up, but alas, I only have a few days available to slink out of the shop and attend Speed Week. However, I would gladly volunteer some time each evening checking on the weenies. :-D
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By the way, most of the ideas that have been propounded here were, indeed, thought of by the Board folks, too. Balloons work at EM -- but that's a one day meet. Even when it's two days -- the balloons get replaced for day #2 because the wind overnight will blow them so much that the balloon touches the lakebed surface - and pow, there goes the balloon. The helium leaks out, yes, but over a day or so it doesn't leak all that much.
From my personal experience of putting Balloons out at El Mirage for the second day of a two day meet, these were my observations:
Some Balloons did not need to be replaced and were left as is.
Some balloons did deflate or explode, but the reason could be anything from the Balloon hitting a vehicle, the Balloon being overinflated, people getting drunk and think it is funny to sit on or pop a balloon etc. How could I tell? Balloon remnants were still attached to the string.
Some Balloons were missing in action. Strings had been cut not broken. You can tell the difference
El Mirage is much different than Bonneville in that people can park and camp right next to the cones that the balloons are attached to, and the string depending who is measuring it can be 18-20 feet long. This allows the balloon a large radius it can travel in depending on the wind, thus hitting vehicles parked next to the cones.
These balloons are much stronger than you would think, they are not your typical Kid's balloons. Another thing I found out is the balloon is much stronger if you only fill it to about 80- 90% of its capacity as this allows for the balloon to expand and also gives it some give when it hits the ground which equals less breakage.
These were my observations.
Tom G.
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I have a dumb question that kind of pertains to this. Why is it the 5 mile marker looks like the rest of them? The guys doing 400+ are looking so far into the horizon that you'd think orange would just look like orange. If you were distracted for a second or two looking at gauges or whatever, it seems like it would or could be easy to lose count. I always wondered why the last marker (on all the courses) wasn't just a different color (safety green maybe) so you wouldn't have to be actually looking at mile markers. I know, dumb question but I was just curious.
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Ron Benham used to say "Put five marbles in your mouth. When you pass a mile marker either spit one out or swallow one. When you're out of marbles, pull the 'chute." I like your idea too. :cheers: Wayno
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If you are in a car that can do 400 MPH you don't have gauges, you do a down load of data at the end of the run. A red light for low oil pressure? You cannot react fast enough to save the engine. Water temp climbing? The engine will slow down and you feel it in the seat of your pants.
If you are slower than 400 MPH you can count mile markers or swallow marbles.
DW
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I remember reading that Tom Burkland looked down and lost where he was and pulled his chutes early and I wondered how or why that could be possible today. I'm sure years ago when it was decided to put up mile markers, all you could find was "safety orange". Now we have "dayglo/flourescent everything" so it would be a very easy thing to try. When you're out there driving pretty much anything, you have your hands full watching where you're at, staying in the middle, trying not to loop it, etc. and I was just wondering why after all these years, guys are still "counting". Drive 'til you see (insert color here) and shut it off, then you're not steeling the kids marbles either...
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It is hard to keep asking for donations for improvements for flags, markers, balloons, etc. If the board decides on improvements that are not in the budget, then just add it to the entry fee. I am all for creature comforts and safety. As for marking the end of each course why not something universal like checkered flags, or something we will all instinctively remember.
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It is hard to keep asking for donations for improvements for flags, markers, balloons, etc. If the board decides on improvements that are not in the budget, then just add it to the entry fee. I am all for creature comforts and safety. As for marking the end of each course why not something universal like checkered flags, or something we will all instinctively remember.
The problem is the 5 mile is not the only end of the course. lots of people shut down at the 3, many more at the 4. As soon as a checkered flag is put at the 5 then everyone will go all the way to the 5 before shutting down, regardless of how fast (slow) they are doing.
The mile markers are really, really visible as is. But if people are looking at their tach, or looking down in the cockpit, or texting, whatever, rather than looking where they are going then they will miss them and nothing anybody can do will change that.
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I wasn't referring to the people who don't use the whole 5 miles when I made the initial reference to a different color banner at the 5 mile. The 5 mile on the long tracks (during Speed Week) is THE END of the course! You can shut it off wherever, but if you see another color BESIDES ORANGE (green, blue, pink, yellow, etc.) it's over and done so throw out the laundry! The people who click it at the 3 or 4 aren't going to the end anyways, regardless of what's down there. My thinking was for the guys who are really hauling the mail and mile markers are going by in mere seconds.
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Or just save all the headaches and set it up like this at the 5!
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc95/truckdude123/Mobile%20Uploads/ea08Z_0544-408x600_zps375fe5d8.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/truckdude123/media/Mobile%20Uploads/ea08Z_0544-408x600_zps375fe5d8.jpg.html)
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GREAT IDEA!!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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There's an accident waiting to happen. :-o
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Need one of those on each side of the course. Keep in mind that the best part is right in the middle.
Rouse
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"Keep in mind that the best part is right in the middle."
Not necessarly. If there is a line down the center of the
course too many people run right over it. That's where
the ruts grow. That was one of the stated reasons for not
having a center line.
If your statement was an attempt at ribald humor it may not
be true if she was on her side.
FREUD
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Don't be promoting those Oriental books that show different mounting positions.
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"Keep in mind that the best part is right in the middle."
If your statement was an attempt at ribald humor it may not
be true if she was on her side.
FREUD
I would never act in an ribaldish manner. However, that may have been first thought at the sight of that ring Girl.
Besides, a little ribald may go a long way, so to speak.
Rouse
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Remember the discussion about the new foam course markers? It took me a while to find it here, too. Today Ron Main sent me his story of the new markers. I'll post it here with minor edits of punctuation and spelling. The photos were in the email from Ron, too. This should give you some more information about the markers and how they were developed.
1/4 mile Course Markers
History
When I learned that the BNI had decided to eliminate all ¼ mile black bag markers, because of the PVC pipe danger,
I went to the July 18 board-reps meeting.
Scott Andrews had developed a new foam marker with no PVC pipe above ground level.
I felt that until the new course lines were proven to be visibly safe (last year’s lines were almost invisible) we still needed ¼ miles makers until the new added lines proved to be safe.
At the July 18 board-reps meeting The Board voted to allow me to provide the foam ¼ mile markers; provided that there would be no cost to SCTA-BNI and that also I would provide, install and maintain them.
The next day I told Scott to order all the material and that I would raise the money with donations to pay all the costs.
HI mean to have Scott bill SCTA-BNI all of his costs for the material of ¼ mile markers. He has also has received some of the material costs all ready, but he should bill the SCTA for additional costs that he has encored.
I will send all my donations that I received to you and the SCTA and I will pay for any additional costs for the course markers.
Any money that is left over will go to the course prep fund.
Also all the donors want these markers to be available to SCTA-BNI-USFR-BUD-FIA or anyone to use for Safety on the Bonneville Salts Flats.
Thanks
Ron Main
Here's a shot of the "old" course markers that were not to be used this year:
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Bonneville%20in%20general/image001_zps630f038a.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/Bonneville%20in%20general/image001_zps630f038a.jpg.html)
And here's the photo story of the new ones:
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Bonneville%20in%20general/image003_zpscd5135b5.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/Bonneville%20in%20general/image003_zpscd5135b5.jpg.html)
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Bonneville%20in%20general/image004_zps0f5cfc42.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/Bonneville%20in%20general/image004_zps0f5cfc42.jpg.html)
Steve Watt of the Speed Demon crew widening his job description:
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Bonneville%20in%20general/image005_zps3aa72dbe.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/Bonneville%20in%20general/image005_zps3aa72dbe.jpg.html)
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Bonneville%20in%20general/image006_zps4d0f1c32.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/Bonneville%20in%20general/image006_zps4d0f1c32.jpg.html)
Here's the paint booth where the foam was painted black. The original color - gray - wasn't dark enough.
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Bonneville%20in%20general/image007_zpsb0704a23.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/Bonneville%20in%20general/image007_zpsb0704a23.jpg.html)
Have you ever seen a streamliner in a foam-padded trailer?
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Bonneville%20in%20general/image008_zpsd4f25d04.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/Bonneville%20in%20general/image008_zpsd4f25d04.jpg.html)
Here are a trio of shots of the markers and the salt:
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Bonneville%20in%20general/image009_zps06f8be78.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/Bonneville%20in%20general/image009_zps06f8be78.jpg.html)
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Bonneville%20in%20general/image010_zpsc29c37fb.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/Bonneville%20in%20general/image010_zpsc29c37fb.jpg.html)
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Bonneville%20in%20general/image011_zps7932a940.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/Bonneville%20in%20general/image011_zps7932a940.jpg.html)
$200.00 Bob Johnson
$1,500.00: eGarage-Ben Adams • http://www.egarage.com/ Executive Director 206.769.5228 Seattle, WA
$1,000.00 John Purk
$1,000.00 Don Bridenbach
$500.00 BILL GUZENSK
$500.00 Andrews Powder Coating, Inc. Chatsworth CA
$500.00 Ron Main Speed Demon
$500.00 George Poteet
$250.00 Dave Petrelli USAC/FIA
$250.00 Mike Cook
$100.00 Bill Smith
$100.00 Scott Beairsto Racing Alberta Canada
$100.00 Willi Boelcke Kraut Brothers Racing, Santa Barbara, CA
$100.00 Tim Cox-Phoenix, AZ
$100.00 Doug-Columbus, MT
$100.00 Sumner Paterson-Blanding UT
$100.00 Lloyd-Ellenberger, WA
$100.00 Bob-Seattle, WA.
$100.00 Dave Brant
$200.00 Brant-Speranza-McLeish Racing
I will get an updated list with donor’s info ASAP
I don’t think the new lines will be magic, also I believe that the courses can’t ever be marked enough. George and I have made more and faster passes than almost anyone, having watched all the in car video from runs with the black line and without I know we need the 1/4 markers from the 0 mile on. George’s comment on the black line last year is that it was useless and we have run with no lines for a decade. Without course markers if a car gets off the course he will never find his way back without course markers! R. M.
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...
I will get an updated list with donor’s info ASAP....
Two that I don't see on the list that I received money from or that sent a check in are:
7-28-14..... $100.00 ... Ron Gibson - Omaha, NE -- Check to SCTA
7-28-14..... $50.00 ... Mike -- 4-barrel Mike - Portland, OR -- PayPal to me
...and I'm glad this came up because I still need to get Mike's $50 to Joann :cry:. I'll do that tomorrow. She should of gotten Ron's check in the mail direct,
Sumner
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Sum, I thank you for reminding me that I got one or two donations here for the markers, too. I just now took a look through the PM inbox and can't find anything about those donations, so will look through my emails, too. And if that doesn't show them I'll check through the Paypal incoming records, and for hat matter -- if the fella that sent a donation for them reads this -- please let me know so I can get your name on the list, too. I apologise for not having got it on there right away.
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Ellenberger, Wa ? Lol. That's Ellensburg. Just funning ya.