Monte,
Could you publish a list of people that have signed up for your "Test and Tune" event?
Rex
Rex,
I will get with Ellen and put together an entry list. I believe we are just over 70 at this point in time. Give me a couple of days and
we will have it posted.
Goody, goody! I just got a shiver up my spine! Thanks Larry!
I rained in Salt Lake late Saturday and into Sunday morning. I just got word from the Salt that there was no rain in Wendover and things are going forward. They are on the Salt doing the course prep as I post this. The temps in Utah are going to moderate this week and should be in the mid 80's.
Things are looking good. See everyone in a few days.
Sounds like it's setting up to be a good opening event. Any chance of it being streamed?
For the Test-N-Tune we bring a much smaller work force so we can keep the costs down. This precludes any chance of us doing live streaming from the salt. I believe we will be making several updates to our Facebook page each day to keep people informed as to what is happening.
Sounds like it's setting up to be a good opening event. Any chance of it being streamed?
For the Test-N-Tune we bring a much smaller work force so we can keep the costs down. This precludes any chance of us doing live streaming from the salt. I believe we will be making several updates to our Facebook page each day to keep people informed as to what is happening.
Why use Facebook? Isn't that partly what this site is for? because if one can get on facebook they can surely get on Landracing.com.
Sounds like it's setting up to be a good opening event. Any chance of it being streamed?
For the Test-N-Tune we bring a much smaller work force so we can keep the costs down. This precludes any chance of us doing live streaming from the salt. I believe we will be making several updates to our Facebook page each day to keep people informed as to what is happening.
Why use Facebook? Isn't that partly what this site is for? because if one can get on facebook they can surely get on Landracing.com.
I don't know why, [ I don't post fotos] but Troy does and for some reason it's harder to post on landracing.com
Maybe Slim can explain :?
JL222
Will There be any vendors on the Salt?Last year there were no vendors I would think this year would be the same. Was set up that only car and crew were to attend.
Dallas is correct. The only vendor that will be on site is Rick Gold with ERC fuel.
As I mentioned on the other thread, I'm 250 miles from Bonneville and can store your trailer full of Race Car 'til Speedweek so you don't have to drag the whole mess home. WaynoI'm in south east Idaho close to I-15 & offer the same, I have lots of space.
It's funny how some of us seem to forget that most of the water that was on the salt is actually over at Intrepid now.
Sid.
Considering that T&T was cancelled, should anything be read into this as a warning for Speed Week? Just wondering if I need to be thinking of options for our RV destination if the rain gods are unkind.
From USFRA Facebook page. "Test and Tune is cancelled. The course is too slick and not safe for high speeds. Ellen Wilkinson, secretary" Bummer
Hoping to post a picture from the SCTA Facebook page. Looks wet. Caused by rainFrom USFRA Facebook page. "Test and Tune is cancelled. The course is too slick and not safe for high speeds. Ellen Wilkinson, secretary" Bummer
I'm wondering how slick is "too slick" and what causes it? Can someone describe the condition please? If time had permitted could grooming have cured the problems?
Jack there you go-- trying to kick we Ostriches in the rear hard enough :evil: to get us to pull our heads out of the salt long enough to look around and deal with reality --- :cry:AS I did my little 5500mile drive just for grins last year, just trying, as you say, to be realistic. Since I have a totally new combination engine on my engine stand being picked away at last touches before trying it on a test stand and having little idea if it will even run, let alone make power (more than before in order to make the trip) I am wondering if someone else may make the decision for me (mother nature). :roll:
I suppose I have just made things more confusing as opposed to clarifying anything!
I have been going to the salt since 1953 and there has been 4 years of rain outs.
Trivia question: apart from last year, in which years was Speed Week rained out?Complete rainouts in 1968, 1982 and 1983 that I know of. In addition 1965 and 1980 only had 3 mile courses
I remember all of them. '82 we never left inspection at the airport, '83 there was NO Speed Week, try to find a 1983 program, hint - none printed. We did not leave Los Angeles. 1984 was looking better, although we were out in October. Course all set, came out of dinner on Saturday night to full blown rain storm. Moved the start line down two miles to a three miles course, left the pits in the original location resulting in a 2 mile drive to start line. Lasted 2.5 days and we were gone. 7 of us picked up the whole place that afternoon.Yah, I was there in '82..
DW
With all due respect. I hope SCTA makes a decision sooner rather than later. We work all year for Speed Week and our team has more junk than ever ready to go this year. Short course, long course... BUT... we still have a long punch list and more financial commitments to make very quickly to get there with all our junk on time. In 2003, it was "the best salt ever", but I drove the long course w/o being able to see for two miles since I was driving on dirt washboard.With all the desire for participant safety, I really hope SCTA-BNI does not force the issue. We can all go jump around and make the standing water evaporate, but we cannot deposit new salt to race on. I hope any decision is made sooner rather than later.
And yeah, I'm bummed.
Well if we do not have the long course and only have one or two short courses I think we would now be a Motorcycle meet, also If you open with a short course only and 80% of the car's don't show you still have a meet and the Hotels most likely will not refund any money.
The link Richard2 posted:
https://www.facebook.com/SCTASouthernCaliforniaTimingAssociation/posts/493766924120428?notif_t=notify_me_page
is a survey as to whether or not you will show up if they can only conjure up one short course.
Well I think anyone can put anything in Wikipedia... just hit the edit link
Just because you see it on the internet or read it in the paper does not make it true :cheers:
As anybody knows that has been racing for that long, the salt is not the same. In 88 you had to drill a hole to drive a tent peg into the salt it was that thick. At the end of the week it took two men & a boy to get the muther back out again.Well I think anyone can put anything in Wikipedia... just hit the edit link
Just because you see it on the internet or read it in the paper does not make it true :cheers:
Stainless, so you believe the BLM is telling the truth when they say the salt is as thick today as in 1988?
DaveB,
Your suggestion has been done many times already. Save the Salt and an independent study by Ron Main to name a couple.
Data is ignored by the BLM and legislators follow the BLM info vrs. the studies. :dhorse:
DW
Are any of the Presidential candidates for 2016 active Land Speed Racers?
That might be our best hope of getting some high-level attention to the Bonneville Salt Flats.
We need some VERY HIGH PROFILE folks on our side.
Steve.
DW for president :-D
You're right Bob, the BLM was absent from this show. Just finished a few minutes ago.
To say I was Frustrated would be an understatement....... :evil: :evil: :evil:
DaveB - there are a couple studies on the BLM website http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/salt_lake/recreation/bonneville_salt_flats.html There is a bunch of stuff on the USGS website, I just searched for it but don't have time right now to look through all the info. I think I will take a look at some of the info just out of curiosity.
DaveB - there are a couple studies on the BLM website http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/salt_lake/recreation/bonneville_salt_flats.html There is a bunch of stuff on the USGS website, I just searched for it but don't have time right now to look through all the info. I think I will take a look at some of the info just out of curiosity.
Thank you BasementBorn! I have already been reading the BLM stuff but what I am looking for is technical information that goes counter to them. Thank you for directing me to the U. S. Geological Survey web site. My first search of salt flats on their site brought up a very good 1997 article from this government entity, USGS, that proves salt loss.
I don't know if any of this could ever do any good but if the BLM would listen to anything (or be made to listen) it is this kind of research article especially from a government agency that may have a chance.
It has been said before. BLM will not listen to us. They might listen to the check writers in some way. Write your congressmen/Senators and to the Utah group as well. Explain the situation and disagreement we have with the party line etc etc.Costs a few electrons as can be done by email or the outrageous PO stamp rates. May not do much but can't hurt and if enough mail filters in, maybe someone will ask a question.Are any of the Presidential candidates for 2016 active Land Speed Racers?
That might be our best hope of getting some high-level attention to the Bonneville Salt Flats.
We need some VERY HIGH PROFILE folks on our side.
Steve.
I doubt that we can afford a politician.
I've often thought about that, but the conflict of interests between conservation groups, mining money and a very small number of recreational users isn't likely to let a candidate speak in opposition to the mining interests or the Sierra Club. The right would paint such a person as a "tree hugger", the left, as one sucking off of the teat of big business.
It's a peculiar détente we find ourselves in the crosshairs of.
I'm sure it has been tried before, but what about the area north of floating mountain. Yes, I'm aware it's part of the Air Force weapons range. Is it absolutely off the table or might there be a possibility? From the satellite pics it looks pretty good.The BLM recently sold the mining rights to the salt flat north of Silver Island Mountains to a Canadian company & it's my understanding they will dig it up & haul it away.
ted
Well I think anyone can put anything in Wikipedia... just hit the edit link
Just because you see it on the internet or read it in the paper does not make it true :cheers:
Stainless, so you believe the BLM is telling the truth when they say the salt is as thick today as in 1988?
We must take the Federal Government to Court. It can be done in Salt Lake City. It only takes MONEY for research to prove that the BLM neglected their duties for the last thirty years or so in enforcing the Salt Removal Permits. Lawyers and legal researchers need fuel for their Legal Engine... MONEY.
As this conversation is about Speedweek 2015, and it's possible cancelation again does the thought of the Alvord desert in southern Oregon hold any possibilities for the future?
Have been some fast runs there in the past.
One other thing that goes along with what Chris has stated. The jobs that are tied to the mining enterprise.
the area's first use as raceway was conceived by publisher William Randolph Hearst in a publicity stunt. Hearst hired William Rishel of Cheyenne, Wyoming, to attempt a crossing on bicycle. Rishel completed the journey, crossing the salt flats in 22 hours.
On the basis of model simulations, the loss of crystalline salt from the playa surface is estimated to be about 975,000 tons per year. The concurrent subsurface loss of salt in solution was computed to be 850,000 tons per year.
Uncertainties exist in the simulations because they were made from limited data, and these uncertainties contribute to simulation errors. The difference in computed loss of crystalline salt and salt transported through subsurface outflow of brine is within the acceptable simulation error.On the basis of model simulations, the loss of crystalline salt from the playa surface is estimated to be about 975,000 tons per year. The concurrent subsurface loss of salt in solution was computed to be 850,000 tons per year.
Uncertainties exist in the simulations because they were made from limited data, and these uncertainties contribute to simulation errors. The difference in computed loss of crystalline salt and salt transported through subsurface outflow of brine is within the acceptable simulation error.
Public Land Order 852
On May 26, 1952, 8,927 acres of public land on that portion of the Bonneville Salt Flats containing the historical circular track was withdrawn from mineral location, and reserved for administration as an automobile racing and testing ground. The withdrawal, which was subject to valid existing rights, prohibited mineral prospecting, location, or purchase under the mining laws.
Prior to 1949, the circular track was the most popular track on the salt; however, when the Bonneville Nationals annual racing event began in 1949, the straight or International Track became the track of choice.
It is unclear as to why the International Track was not included in the PLO 852 withdrawal. The withdrawal expired in 1982 (Morgan, 1985, p. 6).
Without the Salt Flats the SCTA and BNI will go broke. As it is now, the proceeds from Speedweek pay for the majority of El Mirage racing and the World Finals costs.
Bob Drury
Societal Need for the Salt-Laydown Project
Reported depletion of salt-crust thickness has been a concern to the public and land-managing agencies for at least 26 years (McMillan, 1974, p. 1; Lines, 1979, p. 4). This concern is based on changes in salt-crust area and volume reported between 1960 and 1988 that were measured north of the Western Pacific Railroad and I-80. McMillan (1974, p. 3) reported a 9 and 15% respective decrease in salt-crust area and volume during 1960–1974. Brooks (1991, p. 8) calculated 20 and 30.6% respective decreases in salt-crust area and volume during 1960–1988.
Because the BLM, Reilly Industries, Inc. (Reilly), and the racing community (represented by “Save the Salt” - STS) were concerned about the reported deterioration of BSF, they attempted to replenish salt to BSF through cooperative agreements. In 1991, Reilly and STS jointly funded a salt-replenishment feasibility study that resulted in a Salt-Laydown facility plan (Bingham, 1991). According to the plan, sodium chloride (NaCl) brine would be pumped out onto BSF at a rate of 6,000 gallons per minute, 24 hours per day, for 6 months (November–April) during each year of the program. This experimental program was scheduled to operate for 5 years. The Salt-Laydown facility plan suggested that up to 7.5 million tons of salt could be deposited during a 5-year period over a 28-square-mile area.
According to Bingham (1991, p.2), the project could result in a 2-inch addition to the existing salt-crust thickness.
...
Salt laydown project
http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/salt_laydown_project.Par.49376.File.dat/IMF03_White_BSF5yr_042004.pdfQuoteSocietal Need for the Salt-Laydown Project
Reported depletion of salt-crust thickness has been a concern to the public and land-managing agencies for at least 26 years (McMillan, 1974, p. 1; Lines, 1979, p. 4). This concern is based on changes in salt-crust area and volume reported between 1960 and 1988 that were measured north of the Western Pacific Railroad and I-80. McMillan (1974, p. 3) reported a 9 and 15% respective decrease in salt-crust area and volume during 1960–1974. Brooks (1991, p. 8) calculated 20 and 30.6% respective decreases in salt-crust area and volume during 1960–1988.
Because the BLM, Reilly Industries, Inc. (Reilly), and the racing community (represented by “Save the Salt” - STS) were concerned about the reported deterioration of BSF, they attempted to replenish salt to BSF through cooperative agreements. In 1991, Reilly and STS jointly funded a salt-replenishment feasibility study that resulted in a Salt-Laydown facility plan (Bingham, 1991). According to the plan, sodium chloride (NaCl) brine would be pumped out onto BSF at a rate of 6,000 gallons per minute, 24 hours per day, for 6 months (November–April) during each year of the program. This experimental program was scheduled to operate for 5 years. The Salt-Laydown facility plan suggested that up to 7.5 million tons of salt could be deposited during a 5-year period over a 28-square-mile area.
According to Bingham (1991, p.2), the project could result in a 2-inch addition to the existing salt-crust thickness.
...
Louise-
Your point is well taken.
The letters should be addressed to Mr. Oliver with copies sent on up.
We need to keep him in the information stream if we want to get cooperation from him.(Don't go "behind his back")
Will Willis
Behind his back? Seems like he has had enough time to address issues without a favorable response. I am new to Bonneville racing compared to most on this site but I'm not an idiot nor have I lived in a cave either. I want to support the right "process" to get to where we want to go and that is a preserved historic site like so many others designated as such in the US. Threatening to get someone fired at a lower management level isn't going to help. I don't know enough about the politics of this at the moment and I come to this site to learn more but it seems unrealistic to expect someone to help you by threatening them. In fact, human nature would have most people laying in bed thinking of ways to undermine you or what you stand for. Maybe that's where his head is at now?
Desoto, then why is the BNI paying for the Insurance and God knows what else for El Mirage. And what was the entry total for the last event?
I am privileged enough to receive copies of the Monthly SDRC and SCTA meeting minutes and if what I have read in the last year is true, it sounds like the BLM is demanding more and more restrictions every year at El Mirage.
Bob
There are a couple pics on the Bonneville Land Speed Racers group on facebook page that says they were taken today @ 2:00pm and they don't look bad. I am hoping for good word from the SCTA next week. Here is the link to one of the pics https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204416582284141&set=gm.663300230474170&type=1 Sorry to those that don't have facebook, I haven't figured out how to post pics directly to the forum yet.
For those that are fairly new to the salt, check out "1989 Bonneville salt flats racing" on youtube. You can see how much salt there used to be then. ....
There are a couple pics on the Bonneville Land Speed Racers group on facebook page that says they were taken today @ 2:00pm and they don't look bad. I am hoping for good word from the SCTA next week. Here is the link to one of the pics https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204416582284141&set=gm.663300230474170&type=1 Sorry to those that don't have facebook, I haven't figured out how to post pics directly to the forum yet.
As much as we all hope Speedweek will happen as scheduled, The folks that I feel the worst for are The Bike Racers from Europe that have shipped their Bikes over for the second year in a row. They stayed at the same Hotel and floor as I did last year, and they were not your normal excited First Timers if you know what I mean. And just like last year, for some of them as well as some of the North American racers, it was the only chance they may have or had to ever visit Bonneville.
I encourage any and all of you who have never been able to actually witness a event at Bonneville to attend Speedweek even if only one short course is available.
You will never forget the experience or the racers who unless trying to diagnose and repair their vehicle will take the time to visit with you and patiently answer your questions.
it DOESNT MATTER.....
ie 2009 WOS...showed up to a LAKE, some veterans that drove over 4 days "knew" there
was no hope and left....inspections on access road pavement.....2 days later salt opened up... some of the fastest runs in history were made, Poteet
ran a doorslammer 300 + first pass after the impossible conditions 2 days prior
this is Bonneville.....
Pork Pie... I Had to change your post a little..... I hope you don't mind 8-) :cheers:
see you in a couple of weeks
Ah shucks Bob - he says kicking a small piece of dry salt.
Mike,
That is what Bill mentioned in our meeting at the end of the July EM event. Tonight, SCTA Bard meeting, may offer more insights.
DW
I would like to hear them say "testing and research by independent Geologists, and Scientists who do not currently receive or have ever received compensation from any Government Agency in similar testing and research.
Sum,
IIRC you wee in my truck when I showed you that area.
DW
Reilly Industries has signed an agreement to sell its brine and potash business,https://www.intrepidpotash.com/careers/career-areas.html
including its Wendover brine facility, to Intrepid Wendover Potash LLC, owned by
Intrepid Mining LLC, the parent company of Moab Potash and Moab Salt in Moab.
The closing is expected on March 31. Financial terms were not disclosed.
Potassium chloride, commonly known as potash, and magnesium chloride are recovered
through surface extraction at the Wendover site, which has been owned by Reilly
since 1988 and in continuous operation since 1932. Potash is a crop nutrient.
Magnesium chloride brine is used for dust control, anti-icing, chemical intermediates
and specialty fertilizers.
Reilly Industries produces specialty chemicals. It has 550 workers in seven
facilities in the United States, Europe and Asia.
Intrepid owns and operates several potash operations scattered about the region.
Intrepid Potash, Inc. Mine Operations
Wendover Facility
Product Muriate of Potash
Extraction Method Lake Brine Evaporation
Nameplate Capacity 120,000 tons of Potash annually
Effective Capacity 93,000 tons of Potash annually
Minimum Remaining Reserve Life 30 Years
The Wendover Facility is located 122 miles west of Salt Lake City, Utah and has been actively used for potash production from naturally occurring brines for over 75 years.
Brine from a shallow potash containing aquifer is collected in over 100 lineal miles of open ditches throughout the 88,000 acres of land controlled by Intrepid. In addition to the brine that is collected in the shallow aquifer, there is a deep potash containing aquifer 1,000 feet below ground. Intrepid has drilled three wells, two of which were drilled in 2008, into this deep aquifer to provide supplemental brine into the system.
Since acquiring the Wendover Facility in 2004, we have made a number of process improvements including applying best practices to increase volumes and efficiencies.
We pump the brine collected in the ditch system into an 8,000 acre solar evaporation pond to evaporate water and precipitate salts. Over five billion gallons of brine are pumped into the solar pond system each year. As the brine becomes saturated with potash, it is transferred through a series of smaller evaporation ponds into harvest ponds. When the ripened brine finally reaches the harvest ponds, the ore (a combination of salt and potash) precipitates onto the pond floor. The remaining brine in the harvest ponds is removed and the ore is harvested and transported by elevating scrapers to the mill for processing. In the mill, the potash is separated from the salt by flotation. The material is then dried, compacted, and screened into standard product or compacted into a granular grade of white potash. To produce Metal Recovery Salt (MRS), which is a combination of potash and salt, the ore from the harvest ponds is sent directly to the dryer to be dried and screened. The final products are conveyed and stored in bulk storage warehouses. From the warehouses, potash and MRS are loaded directly into railcars or trucks for shipment.
The left over brine, rich in magnesium chloride, is removed from the harvest ponds and transferred into additional evaporation ponds to concentrate further. Then, the brine is transferred into storage ditches and lined ponds. From storage, the magnesium chloride brine, which is used as a winter highway de-icing product and also a dust control and soil stabilization agent, is loaded into trucks or railcars for shipment.
I wonder How much salt is left after evaporation from one cubic ton of salt brine?
During the 5-year period, 6.2 million tons of sodium-chloride salt was transported back to BSF. The average annual 1.2 million tons of salt exceeded an estimated annual salt loss of 0.85 million tons. Over the 5-year experiment, 4.2 million tons of salt removed for mineral extraction was replaced by 6.2 million tons of Laydown salt. The difference resulted in a net addition of about 2 million tons of salt to the BSF shallow-brine aquifer and salt-crust system. {my emphasis}
This concern is based on changes in salt-crust area and volume reported between 1960 and 1988 that were measured north of the Western Pacific Railroad and I-80. McMillan (1974, p. 3) reported a 9 and 15% respective decrease in salt-crust area and volume during 1960–1974. Brooks (1991, p. 8) calculated 20 and 30.6% respective decreases in salt-crust area and volume during 1960–1988
Salt-crust thickness measurements obtained from 26 auger holes drilled in NRP and SRP during 2002 averaged slightly more than 4 feet.
During the other debate threads on salt conditions the question has come up in various ways, exactly what does Intrepid do?
Potassium chloride, commonly known as potash, and magnesium chloride are recovered
through surface extraction at the Wendover site, which has been owned by Reilly
since 1988 and in continuous operation since 1932. Potash is a crop nutrient.
Magnesium chloride brine is used for dust control, anti-icing, chemical intermediates
and specialty fertilizers.
Reilly Industries produces specialty chemicals. It has 550 workers in seven
facilities in the United States, Europe and Asia.
Here is an extract from one page of their 2008 report for a quick summary of what they do at Wendover.
Intrepid Potash, Inc. Mine Operations
Wendover Facility
Product Muriate of Potash
Extraction Method Lake Brine Evaporation
Nameplate Capacity 120,000 tons of Potash annually
Effective Capacity 93,000 tons of Potash annually
Minimum Remaining Reserve Life 30 Years
The Wendover Facility is located 122 miles west of Salt Lake City, Utah and has been actively used for potash production from naturally occurring brines for over 75 years.
Brine from a shallow potash containing aquifer is collected in over 100 lineal miles of open ditches throughout the 88,000 acres of land controlled by Intrepid. In addition to the brine that is collected in the shallow aquifer, there is a deep potash containing aquifer 1,000 feet below ground. Intrepid has drilled three wells, two of which were drilled in 2008, into this deep aquifer to provide supplemental brine into the system.
Since acquiring the Wendover Facility in 2004, we have made a number of process improvements including applying best practices to increase volumes and efficiencies.
We pump the brine collected in the ditch system into an 8,000 acre solar evaporation pond to evaporate water and precipitate salts. Over five billion gallons of brine are pumped into the solar pond system each year. As the brine becomes saturated with potash, it is transferred through a series of smaller evaporation ponds into harvest ponds. When the ripened brine finally reaches the harvest ponds, the ore (a combination of salt and potash) precipitates onto the pond floor. The remaining brine in the harvest ponds is removed and the ore is harvested and transported by elevating scrapers to the mill for processing. In the mill, the potash is separated from the salt by flotation. The material is then dried, compacted, and screened into standard product or compacted into a granular grade of white potash. To produce Metal Recovery Salt (MRS), which is a combination of potash and salt, the ore from the harvest ponds is sent directly to the dryer to be dried and screened. The final products are conveyed and stored in bulk storage warehouses. From the warehouses, potash and MRS are loaded directly into railcars or trucks for shipment.
The left over brine, rich in magnesium chloride, is removed from the harvest ponds and transferred into additional evaporation ponds to concentrate further. Then, the brine is transferred into storage ditches and lined ponds. From storage, the magnesium chloride brine, which is used as a winter highway de-icing product and also a dust control and soil stabilization agent, is loaded into trucks or railcars for shipment.
It appears to come from the Salt Lake Tribune:
http://www.sltrib.com/news/2741970-155/blm-confirms-utahs-bonneville-salt-flats (http://www.sltrib.com/news/2741970-155/blm-confirms-utahs-bonneville-salt-flats)
Mike
I Goggled it, but couldn't find reference to the once-listed Intrepid Salt Co. I saw it a couple of years ago, but can't find reference. Mike?
Thanks, John. It's hard to know whether to sit tight or bust Acura!
Jim
Mike that's pretty interesting but the date on the heading of the article being tomorrow which it is now in the U.K. (proving to Stan that the Earth is indeed round).
From a spectator perspective my main concern is the condition of the salt getting to and from the pits. We're in a rental RV and the last thing we would want is to be getting stuck, or going through damp salty mush which ruins the RV. I'm sure this is all part of the consideration in getting courses prepared is making sure the pit area and access routes are also in decent state. I really hope SW gets the green light but do feel apprehensive about taking this rental out there if the salt isn't like it was in 2013 when we last got out there.
We've had conditions like this many years (water to drive through) with good racing.QuoteFrom a spectator perspective my main concern is the condition of the salt getting to and from the pits. We're in a rental RV and the last thing we would want is to be getting stuck, or going through damp salty mush which ruins the RV. I'm sure this is all part of the consideration in getting courses prepared is making sure the pit area and access routes are also in decent state. I really hope SW gets the green light but do feel apprehensive about taking this rental out there if the salt isn't like it was in 2013 when we last got out there.
You mean like last year's BUB after Speedweek got cancelled? We had to drive a least a mile in saltwater to get to the pits.
Phil Bennett, worry about the tow bill more then the RV. One got stuck years back and from what I heard after it taking 3 wreckers to drag everything out the bill was over 20 grand plus whatever BLM fined him. Big time street rod builder Boyd Coddington {RIP}was told not to take the RV on the return road to pick up the race car and did it any way. The price might have been more or less Im not sure but you get the point
One thing no one has commented on -- and it's a new course of action . . .
"We will make a decision no later than July 22."
This is the first time in my memory that SCTA has done that. Saves the USA and Canadian long-haulers from making the trip -- but also won't allow a meet to happen should some miracle occur after the decision. Ballsy.
Personally, I'd hold off buying any Pre-Entries or room packages for a while. There is a refund policy for cancelled meets, but how it works with transferred entries I don't know.
I'd bet that if the Short Course meet comes about, there ought to be plenty of rooms and entries available.
Phil Bennett, worry about the tow bill more then the RV. One got stuck years back and from what I heard after it taking 3 wreckers to drag everything out the bill was over 20 grand plus whatever BLM fined him. Big time street rod builder Boyd Coddington {RIP}was told not to take the RV on the return road to pick up the race car and did it any way. The price might have been more or less Im not sure but you get the point
It disturbs me how the story has evolved since it happened. "The motorhome headed for the return road just as it was supposed to do." Ron Christianson. http://www.saltflats.com/stuck.htm (http://www.saltflats.com/stuck.htm)
Mike
BECAUSE I DEEM THIS ITEM BELOW TO BE OF RED HOT IMPORTANCE I HAVE ALSO POSTED THIS TO A SEPARATE TOPIC TO ENSURE ALL RACING EYEBALLS KNOW THIS.
DOES SAVE THE SALT KNOW ABOUT THIS? IF SO, WHY HAVE THEY NOT ALERTED THE RACING COMMUNITY?
I had no idea such expansion was in the works.
CLICK ON LINK OR CUT AND PASTE INTO BROWSER
BOUNTY POTASH PROJECT
https://youtu.be/VGtr1TXaNAE
Wow, you can run and lie but you can't hide from the power of google and the internet. This is a real eye opener if anyone ever thought there was any thought given to the racers. I knew there were a lot of reasons but now I know there are at least 65,000,000!
Fordboy may be right, STS should go for an injunction to stop any movement on the new project.
BR
SAFETY WARNING: Please be seated and ensure that any objects easily flung in anger are out of reach.
Before the Laydown Project, some of the brine removed from BSF was replaced by meteoric precipitation {rain and snow melt}, which dissolved salt crust.
During the Laydown Project, the removed shallow-aquifer brine was believed to be mostly replaced by Laydown brine, which generally approached halite saturation and
consequently minimized salt-crust dissolution.
Satellite imagery shows a 5-square-mile increase in the salt crust from 1997 to 1999. Based on the new salt-crust area and its measured thickness of 0.25 to 1 inch, about 0.6 million tons of salt were added to the existing salt crust. The 2-inch increase to salt-crust thickness expected as a result of the project was not observed in measurements from recent test pits and auger holes excavated in BSF. However, geochemical modeling suggests that 17 to 25 million tons of additional salt could be assimilated into the shallow-brine aquifer beneath BSF. Therefore, excepting contribution to the new salt-crust area, most of the 6.2 million tons of salt transported to BSF was apparently incorporated into the underlying shallow-brine aquifer. This may contribute to additional salt-crust formation in the future.
My final question of the week............ Has anyone asked Ron Main how much it cost per belly dump trailer to haul the salt He hauled for His admirable yet rebuffed test?
Another point for saving land speed racing is, it is part of our heritage and a source of international pride.
Substance Formula 0 °C 10 °C 20 °C 30 °C 40 °C
Magnesium chloride MgCl2 52.9 53.6 54.6 55.8 57.5
Magnesium sulfate MgSO4 25.5 30.4 35.1 39.7 44.7
Potassium chloride KCl 28 31.2 34.2 37.2 40.1
Sodium chloride NaCl 35.65 35.72 35.89 36.09 36.37
Has anyone researched how much money the racers and spectators bring IN to the local economy every year (food, lodging, fuel, etc.)?
I agree with Terry, Bob, Thomas, Louise and so many others:
No more Mr. Nice Guy!
The diplomacy of the past 25 years has not achieved the desired outcome. The outlook is grim. Now is the time to start fighting for this PROTECTED geological marvel steeped in history, our beloved Bonneville Salt Flats.
I'm ready to be all in with some serious seed money to hire "Mr. Spence."
Willi
Kraut Bros.
I agree with both statements, A. it is time to move past working with the Potash Mining Companies and work for the preservation of our racing venue. B. Lets keep or win BLM on our side.
The second statement is true as well, Kevin Oliver of BLM informed me when I sent him the video in this thread that BLM denied mining permits for this new operation in 2012 and again in 2015. I would guess that denying permits to mine is probably the biggest stick the BLM has. It would be best to keep them working on our side and apply pressure in the other areas. The troublesome part is the big name politicians on the list above. Politicians cannot say no to big money special interest. That is where we have to have strength in numbers.
If a darter snail can stop a Dam project we should be able to stop a surface mining project.
Walk softly and hire a big time lawyer!
My 2 cents,
BR
P.S. In spite of everything, we should still work with the BLM, whenever possible. There are people that have it in their power to possibly halt (man-made) mineral depletion.
I'm sure there are plenty of people in the same boat as me. Booked the room as soon as it was available to ensure a place to stay for Speed Week 2015. Now that it's canceled, what do we do? They have land speed racers and fans of the event in a compromised position. The deposit, due upon booking, is the full price of the reservation PLUS it's non-refundable. Any chance we'll see a refund?
This just makes the bad news that much more devastating.
Can you move your flights and reservations to get in BMST or WOS
?
To the SCTA/BNI staff, thank you for getting the word out to everyone as early as possible. I know this was not an easy decision for you to make, but you made sure to put driver/rider safety first.
To the SCTA/BNI staff, thank you for getting the word out to everyone as early as possible. I know this was not an easy decision for you to make, but you made sure to put driver/rider safety first.
I second Sporty Dan wholeheartedly. This situation sucks, but I truly appreciate SCTA making the call, making it right , and making it in a timely fashion. I am sending SCTA a donation and hope others will too. In a couple of months when our collective outrage subsides, the good folks at SCTA will be working on our behalf for future meets and they need our help. Best I know, two years cancellation in a row is unprecedented. This outcome sucks, but I truly appreciate the timely decision and thank SCTA for all the effort that went into trying to make the event happen.
I thought that the salt would be evaluated on 7/22.
Since Speed Week was scheduled to start on 8/8, and the
weather forecast seems to not show many rainy days between
now and then, I'm quite surprised and dismayed by this cancellation.
Is there something I'm not understanding here? Something
(perhaps sinister) that doesn't meet the eye?
tallguy
To the SCTA/BNI staff, thank you for getting the word out to everyone as early as possible. I know this was not an easy decision for you to make, but you made sure to put driver/rider safety first.
I second Sporty Dan wholeheartedly. This situation sucks, but I truly appreciate SCTA making the call, making it right , and making it in a timely fashion. I am sending SCTA a donation and hope others will too. In a couple of months when our collective outrage subsides, the good folks at SCTA will be working on our behalf for future meets and they need our help. Best I know, two years cancellation in a row is unprecedented. This outcome sucks, but I truly appreciate the timely decision and thank SCTA for all the effort that went into trying to make the event happen.
Happened in 1982 & 83 :evil: Sucked then too......
Where's Jerry Spence when the World needs him?
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Jim I think a donation to SCTA Is a fine idea. I am a volunteer but will also send a donation, if SCTA fails it won't mater what the salt conditions are WE WILL ALL BE UP THE CREEK WITHOUT A PADDLE. Lets all step up and send SCTA what one tank ,of fuel would cost in the tow rig and send a donation to Save the Salt also, they are working for us and we need to support them.To the SCTA/BNI staff, thank you for getting the word out to everyone as early as possible. I know this was not an easy decision for you to make, but you made sure to put driver/rider safety first.
I second Sporty Dan wholeheartedly. This situation sucks, but I truly appreciate SCTA making the call, making it right , and making it in a timely fashion. I am sending SCTA a donation and hope others will too. In a couple of months when our collective outrage subsides, the good folks at SCTA will be working on our behalf for future meets and they need our help. Best I know, two years cancellation in a row is unprecedented. This outcome sucks, but I truly appreciate the timely decision and thank SCTA for all the effort that went into trying to make the event happen.
Briz, whenever I feel sorry for myself I go for a drive past the Local Vererans Administration Hospital and try to build up the guts to go in and ask the first person I see who is missing body parts How his day is going. The last time I did it was about ten years ago when I went to visit Marlo's life time friend, Captain Bax, who was there for back surgery and doing fine. By the time I walked back through the lobby and saw the remains of soldiers who were only there in body, or a part of a body, or hunched over having a conversation with no one, the tears started to flow and I swore to God that I would never complain or whine about my troubles again without driving back to that Hospital. I am ashamed to say I still haven't gone back inside that Hospital since but that's because I refuse to feel sorry for Myself or anyone else who lost money or time but is still alive and well.
Your not the first person nor will you be the last to get Subaru on, and I am not saying this to embarrass you or anyone else but who gives a f*ck about your losing some money. Get a Life. Bob Drury
I've been wondering if BNI made their decision partly on saving the long haulers expenses.
JL222
I've been wondering if BNI made their decision partly on saving the long haulers expenses.
JL222
It wouldn't have saved us any expense, bikes are already in LA and flights were paid for months ago.
Only decision now is whether to come over anyway for a look around or just draw a line under it and make a new plan. (I have got one idea)
We just spent a year building a bike, I'm sure we can use it for something :wink:.
Was a one run Bob myself once... your habit...hope you get the chance to break it
:cheers:
The Save the Salt Coalition and SEMA have been actively opposing the Mesa Exploration Bounty Potash Project since it was first proposed a couple of years ago. It should be noted that the mine would be located in Pilot Valley, not the Bonneville Salt Flats. The two locations are geologically unrelated. The Bounty Potash proposal has many regulatory hurdles and approval is not assured. The link that was circulated was simply a video generated by the Mesa Exploration Corp which is seeking to fundraise money for its proposal.
Where is the new proposed mine located in relation to the Salt North of the Flats that the Military uses for their shooting range? [The possible alternate track].Eagle Range (Military) is north east of Floating Mountain, the proposed mine area is the north side of Silver Island Mt's.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
The Save the Salt Coalition and SEMA have been actively opposing the Mesa Exploration Bounty Potash Project since it was first proposed a couple of years ago. It should be noted that the mine would be located in Pilot Valley, not the Bonneville Salt Flats. The two locations are geologically unrelated.
uh, I know, I know, pick me!!! They make MONEY!!! :roll: :roll:While phucking the environment until it is depleted & then paying a fine in the amount equal to the value of $1 of my racing budget because it is unrestorable per their contract.
.... There were exceptional spring rains this year, which in my estimation dissolved most of the remaining surface salt/minerals layer and iNTREPID promptly pumped that brine into their ponds. And that has been happening for decades. Fresh water rains dissolving surface salt and pumped away. Salt GONE....
Sum your comments about removing 300,000 tons of salt a year got me to thinking......
Last year, there was standing water on the flats. This year, the flats appear to be dry at first glance, but in many places there are layers of mud just under the surface.
A layer of mud recently got stirred up by those prepping the four salt tracks where 600 cars were set to race starting Aug. 8.
“We have a slight crust of salt on the surface, we have anywhere from a half an inch to an inch of silt, and then we have hard salt again,” said Mike Crawford, mayor of Wendover, Utah.
Latin thinks heavy rainfall in the mountains near the flats, washed soil onto the salt flats in the past year, creating the problem areas.
More than 60 speed junkies had planned to converge on the salt flats to test their racing equipment in advance of next month's Speed Week — one of the racing community's most anticipated annual events.
Sum your comments about removing 300,000 tons of salt a year got me to thinking.
One of my college professors in mechanical engineering always stressed the concept of doing some ball park calculations to get a idea of the magnitude of the problem before you worried about a detailed answer. (this was when you did calculations on a slide rule so you better have a good idea how big the final answer should be or you could easily be off by a factor of 10 or 100 on the slide rule)
With that in mind I did some ball park calculations assuming that all that salt came off the top crust of the salt here is what the ball park calculations say:
300,000 tons of salt /year = 21205732500 cubic inches per year
That would be a cube of salt 2767.9 inches on a side or 230 ft per side cube comes off the flats each year.
If you assume that is being extracted from a salt crust of 36 square miles:
That would remove about 0.1467 inches of salt each year.
Since in 66 years of extraction ( ie since the first salt flat meets were held in 1949) at current production rates they would have extracted about 9.68 inches of salt across an area of 36 square miles.
Not saying that is an exact value only a representative back of the envelope calculation of the probable impact of the mining at current rates with no salt replacement. If that is ball park, since 2006 when I first started doing photography out on the salt it likely lost an equivalent of about 1.3 inches of thickness.
In fairness that did not all come from the surface, but it had to come from the volume of the salt so the entire basin of 36 miles would have dropped 1.3 inches as that salt got pulled away. If the water table did not change then the local water table in the basin is now 1.3 inches higher in relation to the surface than it was just 9 years ago.
Maybe the top salt crust is nearly the same as it was in 2006 but due to the higher water table it would be more difficult for it to fully dry in the summer months. The basin is a fixed sized bowl, you take stuff out the top MUST sink (its that old conservation of mass thing).
We are not talking about just changes in the salt crust (top hard cemented halite crust) but the entire salt deposit and its relationship to the normal water table in the basin. We not only need to monitor the thickness of that top hard salt crust but the relationship it has to the local brine pool water table.
It has crossed my mind that by moving the salt as brine they may be raising the local water table (they are taking brine from deep wells not just the surface brine pool). Although they might be transferring lots of salt they could also be raising the water table which would be counter productive to the objective or restoring a hard surface salt deposit to preserve the historic use of the salt flats as a racing surface.
About that dry salt laydown project ???
.... I believe your optimistic statement about "good years since pumping began" NOT to be inaccurate but leaving out one important fact....
Larry , I thought the article said they removed 4.4 Million tons annually. I could be wrong, ive read so much lately that I dont remember where I saw it
IIRC In the 60's when the speed wars with Mickey, Summers bros, jet cars etc. were going on the track was 20 miles of good salt.
Ron
Another thing that would be helpful would be current status information on the save the salt web page.
The current content of http://www.savethesalt.org/current-events.html makes no mention of the rainout or thin salt conditions this year.
This page should be updated at least every 60 days with current status information, and perhaps links to recent press coverage so new arrivals can see the on-going debate about the conditions out at the flats.
They brag about getting $40,000 in donations but can't spare $100 for a local journalism or web developer intern to do periodic updates?
Useful feed back to your support community is critical to both future donations and to maintain public awareness of the conditions at the salt flats and their exposure to exploitation, from mining without timely recovery of waste salt back to the salt flats.
I just received an email from Wendover Resorts regarding Speed Week rooms. According to this email, they will be charging us for one nights stay, weekend rate, and returning the rest.
John Weatherwax
they will be charging us for one nights stay, weekend rate, and returning the rest.
Eldo;
Call the corporate headquarters of Quality Inn and raise hell. Don't accept the "independent franchisee" excuse-- it's their logo on the sign out front. Mention that it would make a good case on TV.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
One other thing that goes along with what Chris has stated. The jobs that are tied to the mining enterprise.
Being a civil engineer this whole subject has had the gears turning, I am wondering if there is some kind of solution that would allow for both racing and mining to continue to operate. From some of the things I have read it seems as though they aren't really allowed to mine the area of the course. Whether or not that is actually happening or that has been revised since the documents I have seen so far is hard to say. I know there are ditches in the general area but I don't know if those collect the slurry or redistribute it out to the race course. Problem is even if they are only collecting from areas outside of the protected area they are still pulling it from the shallow aquifer that contributes to the race track. I would be willing to bet I80 is built on road base which is permeable to some extent and allows them to essentially pull the water from the aquifer. If you have ever seen the movie There Will Be Blood it is the same concept Daniel Day Lewis is talking about in this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_hFTR6qyEo
I am wondering if we can work with the BLM to get them to make Intrepid build some kind non permeable boarder around the course to essentially cut off that area from the effects of the mining. Then also have them continue to pump salt back out to the flats. At least that way there is a potential for the surface to be rebuilt and the mine to continue to operate just not using the part of the salt that we care about. The mitigation they are doing now, pumping the salt back to the flats equal or greater to the amount they are pulling out over the same period, isn't cutting it and at most is maintaining (barely) the amount of salt out there since they started pumping it back out. If the subsurface gets cut off there is a potential to rebuild it rather than just barely maintaining it. Personally, I think the existing studies that have been done could even be used to make the argument. It was recorded that there was a loss in thickness from their first study in the middle of the century to the later studies. The "minimal loss of thickness" they are using to make the argument, whether true or not for our purposes, is based on studies done after the late 80s which doesn't help us get back to historic conditions we want.
What I don't know is how to work a potential solution in to the conversation. Also, if it can be worked in, the schedule for the lease doesn't allow for revision of the mitigation until 2023 or something like that. Can we get the government to force a revision allowing for that kind of mitigation requirements earlier?
Is this the "new math" I keep hearing about?
.....The Bureau of Land Management says its studies don't show any salt depletion. BLM's West Desert District Manager Kevin Oliver told ABC 4 News, "We believe, the science shows, that we're ensuring that more salt is returned to the salt flats than is taken out by the mining company."....
Oh, that must mean the Salt is getting thicker, right?
Some right funny "science" there.
Sam
#6062
Just out of curiosity, can someone who knows, tell me specifically where Intrepid pumps it's brine from? Is it shallow wells or out of the ditches or where? I always presumed they pulled it out of the ditches but I've been wrong before. :-D
Ron
Article on Yahoo. Does not quite follow the discussion here. Most interesting are the comments. Wonder if this is how the non-LSRs view the Salt Flats and if this is the view held by most people then marketing is needed to get a different view point set.
walk on egg shells all you want, were not walking on salt at SpeedWeek as it is NOW...!!!
walk on egg shells all you want, were not walking on salt at SpeedWeek as it is NOW...!!!
I wish someone besides me would calculate how many truck and trailer loads of salt based on Intrepids figures there would
be. Then figure how many yards in truck and trailer and how many miles of salt based on 81sq ft to a yrd 4 inches thick.
and 200 ft wide.
I have and I don't see the Salt.
JL222
Go to save the salt on home pg then history 1,600,000 TONS of salt pumped on lake bed NOT brine. divide that by tons
per load of a truck and trailer :-o
JL222
Legislators may listen to what 1,000,000 of his constituents are saying but he listens more intently to 1 constituent with $1,000,000 to donate.
John,
Who is to pay for this? The boat ramp put in by Ron Main was $40K all by itself.
DW
Sid, The current statement that there is a layer of silt in between the salt layers is actually pretty consistent with both what you observed and the measurements save the salt have done over the last 10 years. The average for their measurements has been about 1.8" across the courses. We have been racing on thin salt for years. Some thing definitely needs to be done but I don't think this is the end. At least not this year.
JL222 when you are doing your calcs there are a few things you need to consider. First a cubic yard is 27 cubic feet. Second, the salt will not stay on the track. You have to figure that 4 inches across the entire basin, 36,000 is acres. That's 19,360,000 cubic yards. The average belly dump holds about 18 cubic yards. 1,075,556 truck loads. Say an average of 20 mile round trip with average consumption of 10ish miles per gallon that's 2,151,111 gallons. Diesel is what about $4/gallon, that's $8,604,444 just in fuel. Plus you have to pay for people, trucks, etc. Dry salt laydown is a good concept but tough to make that feasible.
Did I say any thing about a dry laydown?
Yeah 3x3x3=27 cu ft 3ft =3x3 = 9 sq ft 3ft =36'' 36 divided by 4'' = 9 4'' deep sections measuring 9 sg ft or 81sq ft per yd.
The BS is the amount of salt supposed to have already been laid down and I was trying to equate that to Truck and trailer
loads.
Also trying to restore the salt by pumping across the hole basin would be useless for the race tracks.
JL222
Sid,The only time of the year I drink a couple of beer's is at the salt so if there's a WoS I'll be there but in my opinion, don't hold your breath!
Someday i wanna buy you some beers and yak a bit. Your need to go see for yourself really rings my bell.
Based on what you saw/measured, are you optimistic for BMST, WoS, WF will happen this year? TFA ia already paid up for WoS so we are hopeful!
karl
Thanks for the response :cheers: beers will have to wait.Sid,The only time of the year I drink a couple of beer's is at the salt so if there's a WoS I'll be there but in my opinion, don't hold your breath!
Someday i wanna buy you some beers and yak a bit. Your need to go see for yourself really rings my bell.
Based on what you saw/measured, are you optimistic for BMST, WoS, WF will happen this year? TFA ia already paid up for WoS so we are hopeful!
karl
Sid.
Louise, will that discussion be on National Public Radio -- nationwide -- or just on the SLC station? Or don't you know? I assume i could find the station on the internet and listen to it, but I'd be happier than the dickens if every NPR station around the country had access to it and ran the show. Let us know if you know the answer, please.
Yo, Mr. Chris.
I can't find KUER on Apple iTunes. I know I can get it via the link you sent, but I was hoping to find it iTunes so that more and other folks could also hear it. Do you happen to know the name of the university (if that's what it is) that operates KUER? I do -- just can't remember.
The discussion above basically accuses the mining operation and BLM of damaging the Bonneville Salt Flats by reducing the thickness of the useable racing surface. But can we prove it? What if it is a naturally occurring phenomena and not caused by mining? We know the surface is deteriorating, but can we prove that man is causing it? It's not much different than the argument whether man is causing global climate change or it is a naturally occurring phase.
I propose an experiment.
Hypothesis:
Mining operations at and/or near the Bonneville Salt Flats are causing deterioration of the of the racing surface.
Samples: Obtain three sizable quantities (a 45 gallon drum or larger) of brine from 3 areas as follows:
Sample "RS" (Racing Surface) from the racing area in the spring of the year when concentrations of minerals might be the highest and before the mining company has started pumping.
Sample "I" (Intrepid) from the brine that is being returned to the area after mineral extraction by the mining company.
Sample "O" (other) from an area of the salt flats where no mining is being carried out, perhaps that area which the new mining company from Canada is trying to obtain permission to mine
Method:
Phase 1: Evaporate sufficient equal quantities of each sample large enough to be able to analyze the precipitants. I'm sure Intrepid already knows the answer to this question.
Phase 2: Evaporate larger quantities of each sample in inert open top vessels which would approximate the depth of the brine on the salt flats in the spring which would simulate one years evaporation.
Phase 3: Evaporate larger quantities of each sample in inert open top vessels as deep as possible to simulate three or more years of evaporation.
Analysis:
Phase 1: What are the concentrations of each mineral present in the samples?
Phase 2: What is the approximate depth of the mineral deposit from one years evaporation?
Phase 3: What is the approximate depth and durability (if that can be measured) of 3 years evaporation?
Conclusions:
From the above experiment, it might be possible to show that the precipitants being returned to the racing surface are not as concentrated nor as durable as that obtained from surfaces that are not or have not been mined.
If the above results are inconclusive, we can always claim "more studies are necessary."
But if the above results indicate that the returned brine water does not result in the same quantity or quality (as in suitable for racing) of precipitants as are found in naturally occurring brine, we may have the proof we need.
Who can do the above? Hopefully, a local university with sufficient qualifications would volunteer, as it would seem to be within their capabilities and would make a good student project.
Perhaps we are beating a dead horse here, but a lot of people won't sleep until something is done and we are powerless without the proof that mining is the culprit.
Tom
Problem is the loss rate increases exponentially as the basin area decreases.
Got home late & been scrambling to get some of my pics & one of the videos from monday to Louise before morning. I'm running on fumes right now but here's the video link. :-P
Sid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe8de-Zhb6Q&feature=youtu.be
UPDATE SPEED COLLABORATORS
DIRECT LINK:
http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/shrinking-salt-flats
"Putting back more than they're taking out"!
UPDATE SPEED COLLABORATORS
DIRECT LINK:
http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/shrinking-salt-flats
.nd it seems their recent call for an independent study by University of Utah is a step in the right direction towards that.
Hopefully that study will be comprehensive and will address the wide disparity in prior surveys and studies that have come before. And hopefully STS will be able to keep a handle on how this study progresses; no doubt BLM will be casting their shadow. A lot!
Follow UP:
1. If Utah decides to sue--- SCOTUS is where the law suit will be heard.
When a state sues the Federal Govt. the case is tried before the Supreme Court. The Constitution plainly states that a state is to receive it all of the land inside it borders and have jurisdiction over it when it achieves statehood.
2. Another avenue: There is a Coalition of Counties forming and the plan is to sue in the US Claims Court which is located in DC. Counties plan to sue for damages by not having the ability to develop their tax base for one thing---I am sure there will be others.
Correct me if I am wrong but sometime in the last year someone posted on here that the local Intrepid plant was down to (it seems) thiry or forty employees due to the World wide glut in potash etal. So lets say its 50 or even one hundred. Just how big of a local impact on the Economy of Wendover could the loss of one hundred shoppers be? Smith's Market, none. Casino's, none. The Shell Station, none.
The only people affected would be the Politicians re election contributions or PAC's from Intrepid.
Bob Drury :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Correct me if I am wrong but sometime in the last year someone posted on here that the local Intrepid plant was down to (it seems) thiry or forty employees due to the World wide glut in potash etal. So lets say its 50 or even one hundred. Just how big of a local impact on the Economy of Wendover could the loss of one hundred shoppers be? Smith's Market, none. Casino's, none. The Shell Station, none.
The only people affected would be the Politicians re election contributions or PAC's from Intrepid.
Bob Drury :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
In fact, because the brine being pumped is not saturated, it may actually be absorbing more of our hard halite surface and carrying it into the brine aquifer beneath our racing surface.I tend to agree with Maj. What I saw on monday & video'd was just the hard crystal base with a thin layer of dirt & a sprinkling of salt. Whats left of the white salt is in the drain field side to the north that flows to the plant & thats also where their north side pumps are located.
this is my feeling on just whats happening
to get a salt pan you need evaporation not leaching
.....I think the next step is to find that best lawyer, get an estimate on the best way to attack the situation, double that estimate to make it more realistic, and start a fund....
.....Perhaps what they need to do is intermittent pumping where they run the pumps long enough to get sheet flow of a thin sheet of brine across the surface and then shut off until it evaporates and precipitates its salt content into the upper layers of the salt deposit..
.....Perhaps what they need to do is intermittent pumping where they run the pumps long enough to get sheet flow of a thin sheet of brine across the surface and then shut off until it evaporates and precipitates its salt content into the upper layers of the salt deposit..
When would they do that? About the only months that could happen coincide with when we would also like to use the salt,
Sumner
... and NO, Tom, I am not going to do it myself. Anyone who doesn't think that STS reads every post here is standing on their Head in Quicksand and yes, you may quote me............................ O.R.B.
Last night I watched the video that kiwi belly tank make when he drilled his core samples. At this point I don't think money, lawyers or pumps are going to do a lot of good on the flats, at least not for a number of years. I think we need to be looking for a miracle. I hope I am wrong. JC
....I have to agree there's no salt there to support any type of safe surface to run on. The thin salt that was once there is now gone! ...
Does any one even know How many or Whom Save the Salt consists of?
Bob Drury
..... In my opinion either STS does not as yet have a viable plan or they must be hedging their bets on some "Big Time" announcement coming from The Department of Interior or the BLM which is hard to believe considering that they have neither admitted any wrongdoing on their part nor how long the recently announced "independent tests" might take to be implemented, reviewed, studied, set aside for fishing season, etc... ad nauseam.
I truly believe if STS does not provide the LSR Community with some encouraging news soon, that the damage done not only to the Salt Flats but to The LSR Community itself and perhaps even to this wonderful Site may not be mendable in the next few years, if ever.
STS can stop all the rumor's and innuendo by simply issuing a brief News Release. THEY OWE EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL WHO HAS CONTRIBUTED EVEN ONE PENNY TO STS A ANSWER. TO NOT DO SO IS CRIMINAL.
We deserve something for what We have already given.
How can they expect any future contributions. To a outsider in the "Real World" this resembles a Pyramid Scheme which in NO WAY am I claiming or trying to imply.
Right now I feel that the biggest problem with STS is STS.
I salute every racer who ever tracked salt back to Wendover (and especially Sid...a Kiwi trapped in Idaho for God's sake),
Bob Drury
thin track record considering all the time it has had to study and implement some type of grassroots strategic plan.
Some times when people step up and try to do some thing to help rectify a situation, other people complain loudly that the first person didn't do enough. If I was that first person, after a while I would just say "Forget it" or something else less PG. If someone doesn't support STS, fine. Don't send them money. Start a new, better group to repair the salt flats. Do something positive or do nothing, I think.
If I was that first person, after a while I would just say "Forget it" or something else less PG. If someone doesn't support STS, fine.-
Speed Colleagues
Subsequent to the NPR broadcast on KUER/Radio West, I have arranged for Kevin Oliver, Dr. Brenda Bowen, Rick Vesco to take a tour TOGETHER out on the salt. I will take part as well if the WOS or Cooks Shootout comes off.
, it would have been a really big mud bog.
.....We drilled some where around 120 1" holes, on 6 different courses. Russ Eyres has 10 years of past
GPS located measurement sites....
I'm not a specialist just a racer & observer with 27yrs experience on the salt.
Pumping back into the flats at first increased the quantity of usable real estate but the binder was gone from the mix as we all saw & the salt just crumbled. Logic tells me that was desirable from a mining standpoint because it allowed more product to flow with the brine water.
I wonder did we $hit in our own nest by forcing this issue?
Sid.
Here's some more of my trip on Monday Aug 3rd. There is some more of Intrepid's operation still to come including some of the dykes & pumps & that is purely so everybody can better understand the system & I was at no time trespassing on their property.
Sid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb3-AzddsTY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK-ZI2xwFQM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HANHe0kcQPU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe8de-Zhb6Q
Despite a significant salt-brine pumping program, it has become obvious that the amounts being pumped are insufficient to overcome the estimated 50-75 million tons of salt that were removed over the previous six decades.
Stuart Gosswein
Save the Salt Coalition
All good questions that have been asked before David but I have not seen any factual answers to these & many more while we drown in feasibility studies. Frustrating isn't it??
Sid.
.... In other words it's crap salt that is easily washed away....
Something I am wondering about. If Intrepid was made to stop mining, who will run the pumps?
I would have thought that any core samples need to be done with the presence of an attorny or bailiff to witness.
You guys need to be really careful. If the politicians decide that is is a great idea to protect the salt flats they might just decide to designate it a "wilderness" area. If that happens that means ALL motor vehicles are prohibited from entering the area. At that point we will never be allowed to race on the salt again.
Is that what we want?
I have seen this happen before for groups thought it was a great idea to stop logging operations in forests so they could have great riding areas. They did get the logging stopped but also got themselves banned from the forest as well.
Anybody going out to the Salt this weekend?
New Speed Demon is ready to run.
2015 Shootout Date: September 17-21 AFD 130819 006 150x150 Mike Cooks Bonneville Shootout (current entries)
8/9/15
Despite the recent storm that deposited rain on the international course that we have already prepped for the
Venturi Buckeye Bullet’s private record attempt, we currently feel that the rain did not damage the course. We will re-prep the course for the Venturi/Ohio State team at the end of next week in preparation for them to begin running on August 17th. We currently have ten miles with soft conditions and some muddiness at the 11 mile mark. If the weather cooperates, things are looking very good for the shootout in September. If dry weather favors us we may have use of the 11th mile as well since most cars will be quite significantly slowed down by that point.
If that happens that means ALL motor vehicles are prohibited from entering the area.
all i am saying is be careful what you wish for.
The Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials (BMST) 2015 were CANCELLED due to conditions on the salt flats. However, several other events are still scheduled for September and October if conditions improve. For more information:
http://us10.campaign-archive1.com/?u=cf2344ee733393889dc8b3d39&id=a8ca7e547c
http://www.savethesalt.org/current-events.html
_______________________________________
I'm also taking this opportunity to repost my August 12, 2015 entry on collective efforts to draft a reclamation plan to begin restoring Bonneville:
[Aug. 12, 2015] The Bonneville Salt Flats (BSF) have been under threat for decades. In the 1960s, the land-speed racing community alerted the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), the agency charged with overseeing the BSF, that there was a serious problem. No protective action was taken until 1997 with the start of a salt brine pumping program proposed by the racers. There was no need to wait so long. A study published in 1979 detailed measures that could be undertaken to protect the BSF such as removing the salt brine-collection ditches. In 1989, the BLM itself warned that the BSF was endangered. Other studies echoed those sentiments. Despite a significant salt-brine pumping program, it has become obvious that the amounts being pumped are insufficient to overcome the estimated 50-75 million tons of salt that were removed over the previous six decades.
The cancellation of 2015’s Speed Week due to deteriorating conditions at the BSF has helped build a large coalition effort to address the problem. With renewed focus, the team has constructed a plan to save the BSF. Team members from Save the Salt, the Utah Coalition, SCTA-BNI and USFRA are working with state government officials from Utah and Nevada, along with members of Congress and the BLM, engineers and geologists to draft a comprehensive Reclamation Plan. Additional information will be shared in the coming days and weeks so that the racing community can use their collective voices in demanding its implementation.
Stuart Gosswein
Save the Salt Coalition
www.savethesalt.org
I'm surprised we have so few votes!. There must be more than 750 members here who care?.
...I have noticed that StS has been kicked in the shins a bit lately. ...
It is easy for people to now say they didn't do enough or they should of done it in a different way but the truth of the matter is those behind STS saw what we now see 15 years or more ago and started to do something about it then not now.
We all know the salt is receding, but this almost looks too much.
It would have been more useful to see some aerial footage of more than up and down the access road. Out at the race courses would tell us so much more, but the drone may not have the telemetry capabilities to fly that far and remain under safe control of the operator. It would be miserable to slog through mud to fetch a downed device, especially if it was damaged.
Still, a good look at land's end.
There was another topic here that linked the video.Yep and Russ Ayers did a great job of working on the Salt, he spent days gathering data and test holes for his report, but I have one question to all you people looking at pictures and maps, when was the last time you actualy walked or drove the track and got out and looked?
And as Louise mentioned, as photographers we know about white balance and the fact that the salt blows out meters to either insane white or a slight brown cast, early in the morning the salt is blue to the camera lens.
And also please read all of Russ Ayers salt report. The salt was covered with a layer of dirt from the mountains that surround the Salt Flats. And when pump back brine was sent back to the flats, it covered the dirt. Normally any dirt that covers the Flats, which it does from time to time, it doesn't get a layer of salt on the top and it dries and blows away.
I asked Russ if the dirt will migrate to the clay mud under the salt, he said it will take years to do so, the hope is the top salt surface dry and crack allowing the dirt to dry and blow away.
The Salt needs our attention, but the Sky is not Falling yet. And we have to be careful that all the attention and stress we give to the powers that be, don't cause them to say F*** It nobody can use the surface.
Yep and Russ Ayers did a great job of working on the Salt, he spent days gathering data and test holes for his report, but I have one question to all you people looking at pictures and maps, when was the last time you actualy walked or drove the track and got out and looked?
This is a bit of a noob question - but why are there different course locations for different events? The "international" course may not have been able to hold up to the amount of traffic associated with SpeedWeek, WOS, or the BUB event, but there was an area which was good enough for the Ohio State team to set a new record in their electric streamliner.
Clearly, none of the sanctioning bodies "own" a particular area of the salt flats. Does the BLM license particular areas of the flats to the particular sanctioning bodies? I'm asking for the purpose of educating myself about the "ins and outs" of course locations on the salt.
Thanks,
Steve.
Is the salt report that Russ Ayers produced that everyone keeps mentioning available to the public, or only SCTA members?
I can find no links to it, folks mentioning it never bother to say where it can be found.
If you want general public and the racing community at large to support action, you need to make this report easy to find online.
Because some may know Ron AYERS from ThrustSSC and BloodhoundSSC in the UK,
It should be noted that American STS Treasurer Russ EYRES (pronounced the same) is spelled slightly different
Don't believe everything you read!
Sid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonneville_Salt_Flats
Don't believe everything you read!
Sid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonneville_Salt_Flats
Since 1998, 10,700,000 tons of salt pumped onto the salt flats. Truck and trailer at 50,000lbs or 25 tons = how many truck
(equivalent) loads delivered? 428,000 truck loads :-o YEA RIGHT.
Save The Salt...Don't believe every thing your told.
JL222
Don't believe everything you read!
Sid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonneville_Salt_Flats
Since 1998, 10,700,000 tons of salt pumped onto the salt flats. Truck and trailer at 50,000lbs or 25 tons = how many truck
(equivalent) loads delivered? 428,000 truck loads :-o YEA RIGHT.
Save The Salt...Don't believe every thing your told.
JL222
Does that 10.7M tons mean the weight of the brine or of just the salt? Brine is mostly water, after all.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
http://www.savebonneville.com/
http://www.savebonneville.com/
http://www.savebonneville.com/
With the exceptionally heavy rains (AKA fresh water which dissolves salt) this year. The rains dissolved virtually the last of the salt crust and washed it down the basin drain , AKA Intrepid's pumps. For all practical purposes there is no longer a salt flats, the salt is gone per Sid's pictures. Aerial pictures can't show anything. 1/4 inch of dry salt will show up on a picture as bright white, leading one to believe there is plenty of salt. A couple more years of rains plus continued pumping and there will be NO salt, not even the 1/4 inch that's left now.Uh-oh........a realist has mentioned the elephant in the room.
From what I have read the researchers keep talking about how there has been little change in the underground layers in their core samples. I see no mention of the thickness of the salt crust to get to the mud layers when it's went from feet thick, as in the picture Rick Vesco posted, to fractions of an inch.
Ron
Another potential is to encourage the state of Utah to cycle some of the very saline water in the great salt lake (120 miles to the east of Bonneville) carried in tanker cars to be deposited on Bonneville salt flats. Some of the costs could be borne by Intrepid as it would assist in their "potash recovery". The state of Utah most assuredly wants to keep the salt flats salty! This type of cycling would enhance halide production on the flats as it would help momma nature speed up the natural deposition of salt on the surface of the flats. Note where the railroad goes making the process fairly direct. There are probably even some tax advantages in there for Intrepid as they could write off some of the efforts as "public interest" items.
http://www.savebonneville.com/
"Dan Warner" :-D
Mike
I actually hate the salt and it has cost $1000's in damage. We should be spraying asphalt onto the surface instead.
Don
Lack of knowledge on the whole mining thing has been the norm for most racers & I was no exception until I spent the time exploring & sampling out there last month. We all expected the BLM was doing their job to manage & protect the salt & we'd abide by the rules & do our job & that was pay money to go racing.
"Save The Salt" should be better equipped to answer that question but here's my opinion based on my recent explorations.
I doubt it is feasible to pump into the aquifer & since we saw an instant degrading of the surface when the pumping started I would assume it's surface pumped.
There are basically three surface pumping locations that I found. One that's close to the plant that connects the plant to the west end of the flats, the next is located near the public viewing area on I-80 & that is connected to the main canal going to the plant plus through pipes under the freeway, the frontage road & the railroad to their ponds. The third location is about 16 miles east on I-80 & that is piped under the freeway & railroad to a canal & on to their ponds. This pumping location is at the east end of the drain field that runs around the north side of the salt flats & connects to the pumping location close to the plant.
Take a look at the video's & you'll get a better understand the whole mess, that's the reason I spent the time doing it.
Sid.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyhS1Ov4la4uQ_gIWv-iBPQ
What is the process used to put Intrepid's swill back onto the salt? Does it just pour out of a pipe onto the surface? :? :?
Over the winter, Intrepid produces high quality brine in its holding ponds by mixing water with the sodium chloride or salt that is left as a by-product of the potash mining operation at Bonneville. When the brine has reached an optimum concentration in early spring, it is pumped to the north side of Interstate 80 via canals and discharged onto the southern section of the Bonneville Salt Flats near the access road. When temperatures rise in late spring and the salt flats begin to dry out, this salt laydown brine is added to the natural salt crust layers at Bonneville.
The stickler this year is that the mud flow happened first and spread out on the salt surface and then the lay-down salt from this years lay-down was deposited over the mud so that according to the SCTA minutes I read from their July meeting they found a 1/4 inch thick and very rough surface over about two inches of mud with the original salt that was about 2 inches thick under that and was what we have been racing on the last few years. They felt the silt had run down from the mountains during heavy rains and settled on the old salt surface and then the mining company pumped the brine out and incrusted the mud with a thin layer of salt creating a very rough surface. Now keep in mind that those measurements and where the mud is isn't uniform over the whole basin,
Sumner
Don't believe everything you read!
Sid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonneville_Salt_Flats
Since 1998, 10,700,000 tons of salt pumped onto the salt flats. Truck and trailer at 50,000lbs or 25 tons = how many truck
(equivalent) loads delivered? 428,000 truck loads :-o YEA RIGHT.
Save The Salt...Don't believe every thing your told.
JL222
Don't believe everything you read!
Sid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonneville_Salt_Flats
Since 1998, 10,700,000 tons of salt pumped onto the salt flats. Truck and trailer at 50,000lbs or 25 tons = how many truck
(equivalent) loads delivered? 428,000 truck loads :-o YEA RIGHT.
Save The Salt...Don't believe every thing your told.
JL222
Looking for how much a cubic yard of salt weighs to figure out how much area 10,700,000 tons of salt covers, I came across
a density chart which had different materials listed in lbs. per cu ft. Salt was 75lbs per cu ft. As their is 27 cu ft per cu yd,
75 X 27=2025 lbs per yd just over a ton
So 10,700,000 tons of salt also equal 10,700,000 cu yds. of salt :-o
1 acre is 43,560 sq ft, divided into 10,700,000 =245 acres of salt 3 ft deep, at 4 in thick its 9 times the area or 2205 acres.
2 in is 4410 acres.
Yeah Right, where is it?
JL222
I think someone's trying to pull the wool over our eyes.Don't believe everything you read!
Sid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonneville_Salt_Flats
Since 1998, 10,700,000 tons of salt pumped onto the salt flats. Truck and trailer at 50,000lbs or 25 tons = how many truck
(equivalent) loads delivered? 428,000 truck loads :-o YEA RIGHT.
Save The Salt...Don't believe every thing your told.
JL222
Looking for how much a cubic yard of salt weighs to figure out how much area 10,700,000 tons of salt covers, I came across
a density chart which had different materials listed in lbs. per cu ft. Salt was 75lbs per cu ft. As their is 27 cu ft per cu yd,
75 X 27=2025 lbs per yd just over a ton
So 10,700,000 tons of salt also equal 10,700,000 cu yds. of salt :-o
1 acre is 43,560 sq ft, divided into 10,700,000 =245 acres of salt 3 ft deep, at 4 in thick its 9 times the area or 2205 acres.
2 in is 4410 acres.
Yeah Right, where is it?
JL222
I didn't recheck your figures but lets say that the race/pit/and other nearby areas are 2 miles wide by 10 miles long. That is 20 square miles or 12,800 acres of area that the lay-down salt could settle over (and I think it is even more area than that). If so then 10 million tons isn't going to add much thickness.
Personally I think the lay-down just helped to slow the decrease in thickness due to the mining and obviosly there needs to be a lot more laid back down,
Sumner
Yeah , the wool. But if you read the link above it does say salt [not salt brine].I think someone's trying to pull the wool over our eyes.Don't believe everything you read!
Sid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonneville_Salt_Flats
Since 1998, 10,700,000 tons of salt pumped onto the salt flats. Truck and trailer at 50,000lbs or 25 tons = how many truck
(equivalent) loads delivered? 428,000 truck loads :-o YEA RIGHT.
Save The Salt...Don't believe every thing your told.
JL222
Looking for how much a cubic yard of salt weighs to figure out how much area 10,700,000 tons of salt covers, I came across
a density chart which had different materials listed in lbs. per cu ft. Salt was 75lbs per cu ft. As their is 27 cu ft per cu yd,
75 X 27=2025 lbs per yd just over a ton
So 10,700,000 tons of salt also equal 10,700,000 cu yds. of salt :-o
1 acre is 43,560 sq ft, divided into 10,700,000 =245 acres of salt 3 ft deep, at 4 in thick its 9 times the area or 2205 acres.
2 in is 4410 acres.
Yeah Right, where is it?
JL222
I didn't recheck your figures but lets say that the race/pit/and other nearby areas are 2 miles wide by 10 miles long. That is 20 square miles or 12,800 acres of area that the lay-down salt could settle over (and I think it is even more area than that). If so then 10 million tons isn't going to add much thickness.
Personally I think the lay-down just helped to slow the decrease in thickness due to the mining and obviosly there needs to be a lot more laid back down,
Sumner
No way in the world have they put 10 million tons of salt back. JL222 did the truckloads math already. When they say 10 million tons they're obviously talking about salty water not salt crystals (you can't pump salt crystals). Is this pumping happening all year long? If it was only being done when the flats were already flooded then the suspended salt could mix with the surface water and spread out over the surface. If it's done when the surface is dry (and doesn't spread out) then it can only be soaking right back down into the aquifer. Intrepids's pumps need to be putting that salty water back on the surface because this stuff's not going to grow up from underground. Perhaps running the pumps only when there's standing water on the flats would help. Maybe the surface irrigation system I pictured a few pages back.
One thing is for sure, if the emphasis and concerns don't switch to the salt flat's surface soon, racing at Bonneville is pretty much over.
......Perhaps running the pumps only when there's standing water on the flats would help....
..... I'm still not clear as to where the water Intrepid is using to return salt to the flats is coming from. ....
http://In 1991, Reilly and
STS jointly funded a salt-replenishment feasibility
study that resulted in a salt-laydown facility plan
(Bingham, 1991). According to the plan, sodium chloride
brine would be pumped out onto the BSF at a rate
of 6,000 gallons per minute (gpm), 24-hours per day,
for six months (November - April) during each year of
the program. This experimental program was anticipated
to have an initial life of at least five years.
Based on the engineering design, up to 7.5 million
tons of salt could be deposited during a five-year period
over a 28-square mile area. According to Bingham
(1991, p. 2), this would result in an additional saltcrust
thickness of about 0.4 inches per year.
Based on the 1991 salt-replenishment feasibility
study, BLM and Reilly entered into a salt-laydown
agreement in 1995. Under the laydown agreement,
Reilly financed the installation and operation of a
$1,000,000 salt-laydown facility, and BLM and Reilly
initiated a cooperative monitoring agreement to measure
the amount of salt delivered to BSF each year of
the program. To ensure the pumped brine meets saltlaydown-
design specifications, Reilly and BLM independently
sample and analyze the brine being pumped
onto BSF. The Laydown Project began delivering
brine to BSF on November 1, 1997
Monte, thanks for the report.
One thing that concerns me is that from our little perspective as racers we seem to be the only ones concerned about the Salt Flats. Where is the outrage from the rest of the public? These are public lands, a national treasure, a "managed" land by the BLM. It is used for all kinds of things such as movies, commercials, photography, etc.
I don't think we will get much sympathy from the public if we whine that we are losing a racing track. To them we are just rich tycoons who only build cars and motorcycles at our leisure and then jet to Paris for a weekend. The reality TV shows that focus on those oddballs building cars and bikes do us no favors. To the public we a tiny minority who needs no sympathy.
So instead of focusing on how the RACERS are losing something they want, what about educating the public and politicians to see that the NATION is losing a treasure? Something along the lines that the California Redwood Forest is being logged. It is analogous.
Don
I haven't been saying much as this topic moves along, but I do know that one group is thinking of putting construction fencing - that two-foot-high waterproof tarp/drape stuff that surrounds job projects to reduce runoff and so on) around about one-third of the total area that we consider for racing. A long and kinda skinny area -- what, maybe 2 miles by 10 miles or so? Then put the salt/brine/pumped stuff, whatever, into that smaller area and keep it confined while it evaporates and accumulates. The last I heard about it was when I was at the Mojave Mile. Will let you know or will get more from them and post it myself.
This is posted in another thread too😊
To all
The meeting yesterday at lands end of was actually at 9am and Rick Vesco and Roger Lessman did a real good job organizing it and getting the right people there. There were reps from Intrepid, BLM, DNR, Utah Goveners office, Save the Salt, Press, university geologist, Racers and some spectators.
I personally flew out from Wisconsin just for this meeting. It lasted until about noon that was followed by a closed door meeting in Wendover.
I can only tell you that this is a good start as it seems there are quite a few concerned about this now including the Gov.s office. There are 6-7 different proposals we understood that were being discussed at the closed door meeting and I assume they will be shared here shortly.
We obviously have to work together at this so everyone keep a positive attitude and things will start to happen.
Sid and I have lots of pics videos we will be sharing.
Burton Brown
I just landed back home after a week in Salt Lake and Bonneville meeting with, and talking to decision makers and folks with influence. I'll have pointed report for all but got to say some the recent commentary seems like it is either wrought of screaming frustration or mind-altering chemicals.
The Utah Alliance has busted its collective butt to get an enormous bunch of players to the table.
You folks gotta give us a chance, not make this harder.
I just landed back home after a week in Salt Lake and Bonneville meeting with, and talking to decision makers and folks with influence. I'll have pointed report for all but got to say some the recent commentary seems like it is either wrought of screaming frustration or mind-altering chemicals.
The Utah Alliance has busted its collective butt to get an enormous bunch of players to the table.
You folks gotta give us a chance, not make this harder.
there have been a number of folks putting in a lot of time (non compensated i might add) to try and get some movement by the blm to address the issue with the bsf. we have been engaged in discussions that have been beneficial. the problem is going to take some time but we are hopeful of some meaning progress, we are giving it our best shot. if you have something to contribute that will help the process, we are all ears. making negative comments about individuals involved in the process is a disincentive to continue the effort. if you would like to discuss the matter personally you can call me on my cell, 775-513-9030.
I just landed back home after a week in Salt Lake and Bonneville meeting with, and talking to decision makers and folks with influence. I'll have pointed report for all but got to say some the recent commentary seems like it is either wrought of screaming frustration or mind-altering chemicals.
The Utah Alliance has busted its collective butt to get an enormous bunch of players to the table.
You folks gotta give us a chance, not make this harder.
I just landed back home after a week in Salt Lake and Bonneville meeting with, and talking to decision makers and folks with influence. I'll have pointed report for all but got to say some the recent commentary seems like it is either wrought of screaming frustration or mind-altering chemicals.
The Utah Alliance has busted its collective butt to get an enormous bunch of players to the table.
You folks gotta give us a chance, not make this harder.
Now that's a thought....getting one of the presidential hopefuls to start talking about it? Anybody have direct contact with the candidates? Right now we do need a lot of press to get the public concerned and talking about it.
Cheers everyone
Burton
I just landed back home after a week in Salt Lake and Bonneville meeting with, and talking to decision makers and folks with influence. I'll have pointed report for all but got to say some the recent commentary seems like it is either wrought of screaming frustration or mind-altering chemicals.
The Utah Alliance has busted its collective butt to get an enormous bunch of players to the table.
You folks gotta give us a chance, not make this harder.
I just landed back home after a week in Salt Lake and Bonneville meeting with, and talking to decision makers and folks with influence. I'll have pointed report for all but got to say some the recent commentary seems like it is either wrought of screaming frustration or mind-altering chemicals.
The Utah Alliance has busted its collective butt to get an enormous bunch of players to the table.
You folks gotta give us a chance, not make this harder.
Got to wonder why Velocity and the Utah Alliance wants to discredit this Landracing forum?
That is depressing.
. . . and here, unearthing some serious samples . . .
funny!. . . and here, unearthing some serious samples . . .
Wow looks like the salt condtions were much better when Boyd was there :cheers:
His Honor Mayor Mike Crawford of Wendover,
What a cool job that has to be. Glad you are doing it. 8-)
I would like to know if you have had any contact from the following folks from Utah: Rep Rob Bishop, Rep Chris Stewart, Sen Orin Hatch, or Sen Mike Lee concerning the declining condition of the Bonneville Salt Flats or the potential effects on the economy of Wendover?
There is a method in my question, sir.
I think we all recognize and appreciate your inputs concerning our favorite great white dyno.
BTW - A mentor of mine was at Wendover back in the day when the 509th was formed and later raced at Bonneville after WWII, so I grew up with holding the flats in high regard.
Thanks in advance. :-D
Regards,
HB2 :-)
I have recently heard that the salt level in the Saldero Loop (behind the dyke) is significantly higher (10") than the surface we race on on the other side of the dyke.....
That would go along with a current plan that STS, the Utah Alliance and Intrepid have agreed on if the BLM goes along with it. They want to make brine south of the highway and then pump it through the Saldero Loop hoping that it will become more concentrated, gaining additional salt in the loop. From there it would go out onto the international course.
If the Democrats are for it then the Republicans and there fore the majority will be against it.
If the Democrats are for it then the Republicans and there fore the majority will be against it.
there is as much as 116 million tons of salt in pond 5 alone. at a recovery of 2 million tons per year, that is a 50+ year inventory. not saying we can or should get it all but it is a place to start discussions.
additionally, in our numerous discussions with our congressional leaders, we have been asked, "what do you want?"
I've been WTFing for some time about hotRod not making any noise over the issues at Bonneville, it's not as if they're not in the loop! :?
Sid.
Last night I heard a news story about U S Cong. Rod Bishop, from Brigham City. He's working on a deal/plan/bill? to wrest control of BLM lands and give it back to the states -- in his case, Utah.
Is he on our radar list of folks we should be contacting? He certainly sounds like he oughta be.
*Edited to correct a mis-spelling.
That brings up a good tangential thought:
Is it worth the effort to write BACK to a congressman after he's helped out - with a letter, an phone call, whatever? Will it bear fruit making him a better ally?
Just thinking out loud, so to speak, on a fine New Year's Day. Nancy's crashed from last night -- I'm out working in the 22F and flurries. Life is good, and Bonnie Raitt's on the stereo.
If the Democrats are for it then the Republicans and there fore the majority will be against it.
I don't perceive it as so. Every other Senator and Governor who has signed on in the form of letters of support of our position to the BLM have been Republicans. I don't think it's Pollyannaish to think that the minority leader signing on has done anything but to give a green light to Dems to at take our position seriously.
I'm optimistic on this one - and I'm usually not.
If the Democrats are for it then the Republicans and there fore the majority will be against it.
I don't perceive it as so. Every other Senator and Governor who has signed on in the form of letters of support of our position to the BLM have been Republicans. I don't think it's Pollyannaish to think that the minority leader signing on has done anything but to give a green light to Dems to at take our position seriously.
I'm optimistic on this one - and I'm usually not.
They smell blood in the water. Read the sentence where they suggest that the BLM might need to look at alternative sites and then offer up their own.... :evil:
If it can be shown that the depletion of the salt surface was caused by the mining (and I'm pretty sure a good lawyer could convince a judge of that), with or without the permission of the BLM, why wouldn't the mining company(ies) be required to fix it?
When the punishment isn't enforced, or there is no punishment, kids run wild... :cry:
The link below is a companion piece to Emma Penrod’s recent reports in the Salt Lake City Tribune.
We find the writer to be woefully ignorant of the situation and will be submitting a rebuttal. Interested parties might consider posting comments of their own.
http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/3915182-155/editorial-racers-can-wait-while-salt
The link below is a companion piece to Emma Penrod’s recent reports in the Salt Lake City Tribune.
We find the writer to be woefully ignorant of the situation and will be submitting a rebuttal. Interested parties might consider posting comments of their own.
http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/3915182-155/editorial-racers-can-wait-while-salt
"Woefully ignorant" is kind. This is exactly what happened when the "Trout Wars" began with the BLM back in the 80's . . . . . . Obfuscation and the "demand" for "more study". This will give whoever, UNIMPEDED access to continue to "extract" the resource, without significant financial return to the taxpayer. As in the Northwest, it will eventually be made public that the fees paid to the BLM for the "right to extract", do not even cover the administrative costs at the BLM.
Some things NEVER change.
Well, except the amount of salt on the flats . . . . . .
:cry:
This will give whoever, UNIMPEDED access to continue to "extract" the resource, without significant financial return to the taxpayer.
This will give whoever, UNIMPEDED access to continue to "extract" the resource, without significant financial return to the taxpayer.
Mark - I gave this one some thought, and I'm becoming a bit less "pollyannish" - in short, my view is changing.
We won't be able to get away from the study - there's too much at stake to make a decision based on what can still be argued on a political level as "non-conclusive" evidence. Imagine the poor Senator of Congressman going before the budget committee with a proposal to move salt to the salt flats . . . the ridicule would be overwhelming.
But in a study of this magnitude - and we will be stuck with the conclusions of this study for years to come, regardless of the results - in order to gain a solid, credible baseline of evidence, as with a patient in an emergency room, or a problematic engine on a dyno, the affected area needs to first be stabilized.
While the Alliance has in its sites the involvement of the mining company - and let's face it, they're the only ones with anything close to the capacity to return salt from south of I-80 to the racing surface - in order to stabilize the environment, I've come to the conclusion that a moratorium on all mining in the area - and that would include any additional lay-down - is necessary in order to properly validate any conclusions this study is attempting to reach.
There are clearly too many variables occurring with respect to water sources, use of current infrastructure, mineral content, weather and engineered aspects of the environment. That experts in the field can't really determine what's happening further indicates that any mathematical controls used to validate or produce any conclusions will be suspect, regardless of what they indicate.
If this study is to have any credibility, the pumps will have to be silenced during the period of the study.
Dyno, not having a rule book handy, what is the procedure to bump ones license back up?
Thanx, Bob
This will give whoever, UNIMPEDED access to continue to "extract" the resource, without significant financial return to the taxpayer.
Mark - I gave this one some thought, and I'm becoming a bit less "pollyannish" - in short, my view is changing.
We won't be able to get away from the study - there's too much at stake to make a decision based on what can still be argued on a political level as "non-conclusive" evidence. Imagine the poor Senator of Congressman going before the budget committee with a proposal to move salt to the salt flats . . . the ridicule would be overwhelming.
But in a study of this magnitude - and we will be stuck with the conclusions of this study for years to come, regardless of the results - in order to gain a solid, credible baseline of evidence, as with a patient in an emergency room, or a problematic engine on a dyno, the affected area needs to first be stabilized.
While the Alliance has in its sites the involvement of the mining company - and let's face it, they're the only ones with anything close to the capacity to return salt from south of I-80 to the racing surface - in order to stabilize the environment, I've come to the conclusion that a moratorium on all mining in the area - and that would include any additional lay-down - is necessary in order to properly validate any conclusions this study is attempting to reach.
There are clearly too many variables occurring with respect to water sources, use of current infrastructure, mineral content, weather and engineered aspects of the environment. That experts in the field can't really determine what's happening further indicates that any mathematical controls used to validate or produce any conclusions will be suspect, regardless of what they indicate.
If this study is to have any credibility, the pumps will have to be silenced during the period of the study.
I do like your patient in an emergency room comparison though . . . . . :-)
The salt flats belongs to each and every person that is a US Citizen and as such it is up to each of us to help to get the restoration process started. :x
Best Regards to All,
HB2 :-)
Monte didn't exactly say everything was under water.
... don't read what isn't there. I'm sure they've simply surveyed and found enough salt to make for potential courses...The SCTA said two days ago, on their facebook page, that " ... the 3 mile and 5 mile courses have been groomed...". I'm just reading what is there.
How can I say this politely?
There's six weeks to go. Lots of things, good or bad, can happen 'til then.
Fretting over things this far out is not worthwhile.
The SCTA used three truck, uhauls, to drag out three courses, the weather is in the same cycle it was in 2012, which was not a bad year of racing. I personally cleaned the trucks and the salt on them was very clean and white, which is a good sign for the track. They are comming back in a couple weeks to do more dragging. With the weather staying at 90 plus degrees for the next two weeks its shaping up to be a good track. I believe it should be dry and hard enough for Mike Cook to run his small events in the next week! Don't know why the Utah group pulled the Test and tune, but one never knows.
And yes it rained in town hard, but it was just a burst, and no rain on the flats!!!!!
Mike Crawford,
Wendover
Did any Racers get to talk to the legislators on Thursday?
Sam
#6062
Agree 100% with what Joe said. Absolutely incredible!
On a side note, how many of you folks closely noticed the BLM guy that spoke at the drivers meet Saturday morning. Holding the microphone, his hand was shaking so bad that I guess he thought we were ALL going to beat the ever loving Subaru out of him. Funny to me! :-D :-D :-D
Gregg
Racers -
We are making enormous progress.
Racers -
On Tuesday I hosted Kathleen Clarke, Director of Public Lands Policy who works for Gov Herbert. She and her aide spent 9 hours on the salt with me. During the time they were shown the entire layout and operation of land speed racing, introduced to key SCTA personnel, witnessed action from the starting line, high-speed shut-down area, timing tower, inspection lines, impound and a great deal of time talking with racers in their pits. Lee Kennedy took us on a tour of the active courses and explained the safety procedures.
When she left Larry Volk took us out to a spot far beyond the rookie course where GREAT salt was in place, looking like it did in the 1960s; he proceeded to wail on it with a pick ax demonstrating how hard the salt SHOULD be to safely accommodate speed machines. Overall the day made an indelible, positive impression and she was mighty impressed with the professional, well planned and execution of the event. She promised to give the Governor, Dept of Natural Resources, Parks and Recreation, etc. a full report on the day.
I asked that since she was the former BLM director in DC, would she please give it a "deep think" about what the LSR community ought to be doing to get the restoration plan put into place.
On Thursday, 4 members of our US Congressional staff were on site. They stayed 4 hours and were given the same hospitality as Clarke but with a big group of STS and Utah Alliance folks doing the tour. All left saying their impression of the situation had changed dramatically and that the tour was of immense observational help. More on this when the bill is introduced in the HOR. However, before the day was done, the buzz had reached the ears of another congressman who CALLED US to say we can count on his full support for the new legislation.
Understand this was NOT a staffer, but the elected official himself.
We are making enormous progress.
NOTE: It was Jenna Whitlock, Acting BLM State Director who said, "Why are you going out there? They are racing, everything is fine." Whitlock was responding to a personal invite Clarke made to join us for the in-depth salt tour. Other the BLM law enforcement, no other staffers stayed on-site as far as I know. Dr. Brenda Bowen and her post-doctoral student helping with the study attended and both were utterly entertained by the unfolding speed deeds as evidence by their instantaneous, beaming smiles when I asked them what they thought. . . .
Also, it was Emma Penrod at the SLC Tribune that called me asking for a reply to Kevin Oliver's comment to her that "everything was great, we and the racers are friends, the salt is back" or something like that. I replied that Oliver was delusional and the best characterization I could provide was that the salt was like patient that had awoken in the ICU after two comatose years and that plenty of rehab and healing was still on the chart before the patient was cleared for heavy-lifting duty -- aka supporting hundreds of high speed machines safely. For that I got labeled, "outspoken critic of the BLM" in the article. I think it would make a great bumper sticker, or T-shirt.
very, very nervous, he was UNCOMFORABLE---
I listened closely to his words---In my opinion--they were chosen carefully---tried to paint a rosy picture ---without obvious miss-statements of facts
Interesting note: I was up on the tower during the meeting -- kinda watching out so the speakers held the mic in the right place and such. I don't remember noticing the shaking hand -- but do remember that I elected NOT to reach up and move the mike -- the dude did look a bit apprehensive and i didn't want to interrupt his trains of thought.
With the infamous Roxanne Tea "we may not allow you to run if you keep criticizing us" still employed by the BLM, it demonstrates that their bureaucracy tolerates that kind of threatening behavior toward the public.
With the infamous Roxanne Tea "we may not allow you to run if you keep criticizing us" still employed by the BLM, it demonstrates that their bureaucracy tolerates that kind of threatening behavior toward the public.
I believe at the end of the BLM "threat" debacle that we discovered that she was simply conveying the sense and feeling around the BLM office and not directly behind the threat itself. Perhaps you missed that part but now that you know, you guys that keep targeting her need to stop. It's entirely uncalled for.
Wow, you guys truely amaze me, don't you have anything better to do, hey its 5:00 pm, time for your dinner!!!
When will the time come when somebody steps up and gets a restraining order against the BLM to dis-continue all mining until a third party does a diligent job regarding salt depletion, which could take some time?
I'm no tree hugger, but I know one thing. If the BLM was allowing loggers to cut down old growth redwoods, they would have their asses in court as fast as Danny's streamliner.
AND, unfortunately, that is EXACTLY what it took to get the BLM to STOP allowing the logging of "old growth redwoods". ..
Salt27
I wasn't even aware the BLM controlled forested areas. My point was strictly about our natural resources being taken away from us by a government agency that claims it is OK to do just that.
Remember --- OUR objective ---a very viable RESTORED INTERNATIONAL COARSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Boy there is a whole lot of I in there!!!!
This year was not a really bad year for racing, but like in the past rain events, the year after is rough the next year better and the third year is usually a great surface, but mother nature is not very perdictable. Like I have said over and over again, the racers are important to Wendover, just not as important as some of them think they are. and I did say some, not all.
I think the term "save the salt" is not really applicable to the condition of Bonneville any more, now we should be saying "Return the Salt"...... Sid.
Since thousands of train carloads, over a hundred year period have been transported elsewhere how do you propose to get them back ?
Since thousands of train carloads, over a hundred year period have been transported elsewhere how do you propose to get them back ?
Would it do us any good to establish one of those funding sites ...............
Ron
Between the new EPA and Dept. of Interior directors I'm feeling more hope than I have for a long time.
http://www.mensjournal.com/adventure/articles/who-will-lead-trumps-department-of-the-interior-the-current-picks-w450607
Technically, it's called 'mining' as in liquid or brine mining. Maybe at some point too much soil in the brine will have an effect on future mining. http://www.intrepidpotash.com/Between the new EPA and Dept. of Interior directors I'm feeling more hope than I have for a long time.
http://www.mensjournal.com/adventure/articles/who-will-lead-trumps-department-of-the-interior-the-current-picks-w450607
I might see it from another view point. These people seem to be all about mineral extraction,
Sumner
Anybody tweeted the T man yet? May be a good place to get some attention about the condition of the Bonneville Salt Flats. Ya never know, he responds to some unusual tweets. Remember, it's a National Registered Historic Landmark and he hasn't picked the next interior chief yet.
Can't get the Bermuda grass to hold but it's the most incredible, fantastic driving range in the world.
Can't get the Bermuda grass to hold but it's the most incredible, fantastic driving range in the world.
... You're thinking of Sisyphus. Good enough analogy. :-D
... You're thinking of Sisyphus. Good enough analogy. :-D
Not familiar with that one Slim... Is that the one where it leaks, scabs over or falls off? :roll: :cheers:
Woody, with all due respect -- I just went through the link you supplied and then went back and RE-read the aticle on p.2 of the latest BRN. And now I ask AGAIN:
Is there any current news about pumping?