Landracing Forum
Misc Forums => NON LSR Posting => Topic started by: 38flattie on June 07, 2014, 06:23:03 PM
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Yep, I need your expertise! I'm working my way down the 'bucket list', and this little venture is next! :-D
What 4 cylinder engine, N/A, has the potential for the most HP? The rules state it cannot be over 2500 cc, and must retain the OEM cast heads and block. Also:
CAMS, TIMING COMPONETS, CARBURETORS AND EXHAUST SYSTEMS ARE OPEN. ALL HIGH PERFORMANCE PARTS MUST BE AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. THIS IS A NON-SEALED HIGH PERFORMANCE CLASS.
ALL ENGINES MUST HAVE BEEN PRODUCED IN QUANTITIES OF AT LEAST 5000 UNITS WITHIN A 12 MONTH PERIOD AND BE READILY AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC IN THE U.S.A
Thank you in advance!
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Man, by throwing out imports, you've really limited the deal to what is mostly the worst of the bunch.
Probably the Ecotec 2.5. There were a couple of DOHC setups for the Chrysler 2.2/2.5 back in the day - I think one was a Lotus or Cosworth design cast in Mexico, but I doubt they were made in the quantities necessary.
Hmmmm . . . Cosworth . . . . Vega? Sure would make setting up the rest of the drivetrain a snap.
Possibly a marine application might be worth looking into, if allowed.
I'm thinking it kind of depends as to how much you want to put into it.
If the FlatCad is any indication, it'll be a fire breather. :cheers:
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Chris, imports are allowed:
ANY 2500CC OR UNDER FOUR (4) CYLINDER OEM AUTOMOTIVE MANUFACTURE ENGINE (HONDA, SUBARU, FORD AND GM), MAY BE USED.
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Chris, imports are allowed:
ANY 2500CC OR UNDER FOUR (4) CYLINDER OEM AUTOMOTIVE MANUFACTURE ENGINE (HONDA, SUBARU, FORD AND GM), MAY BE USED.
Then the world is your oyster!
The 2 liter out of the S-2000 Honda would be a great starting point, and while it has made its reputation as a turbo motor, I can tell you that the 2.5 Subaru, stock, in normally aspirated form, is a remarkably strong motor with a lot of potential upside.
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Yep, I need your expertise! I'm working my way down the 'bucket list', and this little venture is next! :-D
What 4 cylinder engine, N/A, has the potential for the most HP? The rules state it cannot be over 2500 cc, and must retain the OEM cast heads and block. Also:
CAMS, TIMING COMPONETS, CARBURETORS AND EXHAUST SYSTEMS ARE OPEN. ALL HIGH PERFORMANCE PARTS MUST BE AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. THIS IS A NON-SEALED HIGH PERFORMANCE CLASS.
ALL ENGINES MUST HAVE BEEN PRODUCED IN QUANTITIES OF AT LEAST 5000 UNITS WITHIN A 12 MONTH PERIOD AND BE READILY AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC IN THE U.S.A
Thank you in advance!
I love my 2.0 Ecotec LNF. I have a pretty mild turbo build in my HHR that makes 300 hp at the wheels (and that will hopefully be making an appearance at Loring in late August and Ohio in September), but the guys at ZZ Performance in Grand Rapids have dynoed their 2.0 at 898 whp before failure. My LNF has the stronger Gen II Ecotec block, with forged crank and rods and cast pistons, and it's a pretty stout little motor. I'm actually using the 2.4 heads that were on my stock HHR motor (which I ran at Loring and Wilmington last year)--I stepped down to the 2.0 because the stock 2.4 block would have been iffy with the turbo on there. Pretty good aftermarket for parts, too...
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The Subaru is a good engine, but one of the ports has a dog leg and is a pain to get the flow to work properly. I was going to use Pete Ardema's head he adapted for the Model A Ford with a hairdryer to compensate for the flow issue in a hill climb race till they banned turbos from the hill climb. Why beat your self when there are better engines to start with.
If it was me I would look at the Honda and talk to Miriam or Doug about the engines. They have the Hondata engine in Don's liner and Don mentioned the engine was making somewhere in the 800 hp range with the hairdryer. Tony
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Tony's correct - as usual. Look for lots of valves and straight ports. Most of the modern 4s can take a lot of bottom end punishment, but normally aspirated, it's going to be all about flow.
Do you have Harold Bettes' book?
http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Airflow-HP1537-Practical-Performance/dp/1557885370
Good primmer, that one.
Buddy - is this a Bonneville project?
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You're a little shy on information & application there Buddy, Who is at the top of the heap in this racing & what are they running? :? :?
Sid.
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Looks like somebody is going SCORE Class 5 racing :cheers:
amirite?
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Thanks guys!
I've been researching the Honda FC22C1 engine, and i think it shows great promise.
Sid, the rules changed this year, allowing more types of engines in the class, so it's hard to tell at this point what the 'winners' will run!
Looks like somebody is going SCORE Class 5 racing :cheers:
amirite?
Yes, you are right! :-D
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Any NHRA prostock motors that small? Might be a good place to look.
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Nissans SR20 is a great platform espically with the "VE" head. Pretty much Nissans version of Hondas Vtec. Big aftermarket support too
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Thanks guys! I'm still looking, but the Honda looks like a good base,with 240 HP
This is for the Baja 1000 and 500, so keeping things intact will be a challenge.
We'll try and identify week spots, strengthen them, then go try and break things, and then fix them.
This is Danny's build, one of FlatCad's drivers. I'm just a driver on this venture, and offered to do the engine and tranny for the car.
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You might want to look at the dirt midget world. Thats some well proven $hit with under head or over head cam options & you might even get a deal on a couple bullet's ready to load. I guess you'll have to change it to gas but that's no biggie!
Sid.
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Thanks Sid- I'll check it out!
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When you load the chamber you could visit Stainless :cheers:
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Visiting Stainless is always high on my list!
Actually, when I head to Kansas next month, my plan was to see if he was around so that I could stop by.
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Buddy, when is your planned trip?
Hopefully you can stay for dinner, drinks and retire to the Bonneville Suite for the night.
Linda and I would enjoy the visit.
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Buddy, when is your planned trip?
Hopefully you can stay for dinner, drinks and retire to the Bonneville Suite for the night.
Linda and I would enjoy the visit.
Stainless, I appreciate the invite very much! I'm not sure of my schedule yet, but I'll call you a few days in advance of heading that way!
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Buddy, Sumner is going to use an Atlas 4 banger in his lakester. You might talk to him about it. I just completed installing an Atlas Vortec 4200 in my old beater GMC, sure runs smooth.
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Buddy, Sumner is going to use an Atlas 4 banger in his lakester. You might talk to him about it. I just completed installing an Atlas Vortec 4200 in my old beater GMC, sure runs smooth.
The 4 might be too large for his rules at 2800 and 2900 cc but these are good motors and more and more people are using them. If you go to the 6 min. 30 sec. spot on the following link you will see one in an altered running low 9's at 140+ mph and it is naturally aspirated not blown....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xeo6fzQbKdc&feature=youtu.be&noredirect=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xeo6fzQbKdc&feature=youtu.be&noredirect=1)
The 6 cylinder version that Gary is using in his GMC...
(http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/download/file.php?id=238)
... is the NHRA record holder right now.....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/13--11-15-13%20Atlas%202900-3.jpg)
.....in its class running in the 7's again na. Self Racing has build a number of the 6's for customers and a few 4's.
John at Quad 4 Rods was making me a flywheel for the 4 but I talked to him the other day and he is revising it for the 6 so I'm backing out of the 4 and will probably run the 6 as an E motor or de-stroke it down to a F motor. I'd still like to put the 4 in my pickup with a turbo on it. I feel the 6 as an F motor has more potential than the 4 as an F motor with 2 more sets of great flowing ports and with the power over 6 sets of rods, pistons and crank throws it should be more reliable under huge boost.
Not sure about the rules Buddy is running under but one of the 2900's de-stroked down to the size needed to fit the rules would be a killer motor. The intakes on these flow about 270 stock and about 330 with just a little work and some have them flowing over 400 with more work.
Too many projects so any of this could change for me :-)
Sum
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Gary, the max size we can run is 2500cc. Still looking at options
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Why yes, there are prostock Honda 4 bangers (F series). Google Bisimoto engineering and look for the Honda Insight they used to campaign.
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The Subaru is a good engine, but one of the ports has a dog leg and is a pain to get the flow to work properly.
True, the Subaru EJ series have a slight dog leg on the rear exhaust ports, but I wouldn't let that alone stop me from using one. The subaru bottom ends are very stout and can handle lots of RPM and boost. The packaging for the width of the engine could be a challenge though. The 2.2l turbo blocks had closed decks, oil squirters, forged cranks, and oil coolers stock.
I would start with a Honda 1.8-2.0. The packaging should be much easier and there is a TON of aftermarket support for these engines. As far as I know, the blocks need to have a plate welded into the deck to keep the head gaskets in place.
The Eco-tec is supposedly a monster with the right setup and it is based on the High-revving Quad 4 of the 90's.
We cannot overlook the bullet proof Toyota 22r. I have seen these things WOT running high boost in the desert for days.
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I also vote for the 22R or the Subie. I got to drive/flog an STI this spring and it was phenomenal! I can not imagine what a hot rodded one feels like!
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Just my 2 cents......how about a Pinto 2.3 single overhead cam engine....there are tons of these engines already in the score off road series and the midget sprint car series...I believe a Esslinger engine won the Chili Bowl the last 2 or 3 years....correct me if I'm wrong....One name comes to mind is Bruce Nogrady....I think thats how to spell his name...I think he is from southern california and although I have never had any work done by him... I believe he is " the man " when building a Pinto engine.... Hope this helps ....Paul...
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FYI the F series from the S2000 spins clockwise while the F series from the accords and preludes spin counter clockwise. I have a turbo F22A6 (spins ccw) in an accord and I'll definitely second needing sleeves and a deck plate to make any serious HP and keep a head gasket.
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Thanks everyone!
I've settled on the Honda F22C1, out of a 2004-2009 S2000, and a HP goal of 400.
Soooo, if you know any tricks, or have any trick parts for sale, please send me a message!
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Thanks everyone!
I've settled on the Honda F22C1, out of a 2004-2009 S2000, and a HP goal of 400.
Soooo, if you know any tricks, or have any trick parts for sale, please send me a message!
I think that's an excellent choice. Properly prepped, they're bullet proof, they wind all day, you have good parts availability and you have aftermarket support.
If you put the time, patience and sweat into this one that you did into the FlatCad, you will have built yourself a world class 2 liter race engine.
I'm going into DOHC territory myself with the MG/Rover K series. We'll compare notes as they both progress.
Cheers, Buddy! See you in 2 weeks! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Chris
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I heard "Eslinger" is going to be out to SW this year. :roll:
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Thanks everyone!
I've settled on the Honda F22C1, out of a 2004-2009 S2000, and a HP goal of 400.
Soooo, if you know any tricks, or have any trick parts for sale, please send me a message!
Buddy,
Since you settled on the S2K engine, be sure to check out Paul Powell's #80 Hizer Racing Spirit Modified Sports Berkley at SW.
This year, it has the S2K engine and I've been helping him the past couple of weeks get ready for SW with this new setup.
Here is a pic of it in B/BGMS form that Dan Kaplan shot from SW 2013:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10152009_632832466793705_5345678709475817200_n.jpg)
Paul should be able to answer any questions you might have.
Hope this helps,
Gregg