Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: xxobuick on May 26, 2014, 04:01:28 PM
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I have been reading the rule book pretty carefully, to see which class we can possibly make a class change into this year at speedweek. It appears on the Competition coupe, Gas Coupe and and altered coupe the only class you can run a Vintage body, or a Pre 82 body is Competition coupe. Is this true?
I see there are records in the book by people I know have a pre 82 body in altered and in gas coupe. Now I am not talking Vintage coupe classes.
Can someone please enlighten me on what I am missing here?
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I would like to know also. Just got my first rule book, 2014. And I notice in the Gas Coupe section 5.D.3, a picture is shown of a mid 60's bacacuda?
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The #6969 Gas Coupe you are looking at happens to house a twin turbo, late model Hemi with EFI. This combination makes the car not legal for Classic Category.
DW
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To the OP. You are running a vintage engine in a vintage body. According to rule 1.B, 1st paragraph,(this is known as the lowest primary class rule) you must compete in the lowest Category/Class in which your vehicle fits. There are Comp Coupe classes in the Vintage Category, there are NO Comp Coupe classes in the Classic Category.
DW
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We are looking at un bolting our fenders off of our coupe and lengthening the nose, blocking off the radiator, removing headlights, bumpers, etc. So this will bring us into competition coupe, and we would want to be able to run GCC/XX and VGCC/XX
We were also contemplating not doing such extravagant changes, such as not lengthening the nose etc to stay in altered, but It looks like a pre 82 body cannot run in an altered class?
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We are looking at un bolting our fenders off of our coupe and lengthening the nose, blocking off the radiator, removing headlights, bumpers, etc. So this will bring us into competition coupe, and we would want to be able to run GCC/XX and VGCC/XX
We were also contemplating not doing such extravagant changes, such as not lengthening the nose etc to stay in altered, but It looks like a pre 82 body cannot run in an altered class?
The jump between XXO/VGCC and /GCC, is easy-add engine management, and you are no longer qualified for vintage, and it moves you to /GCC.
Same for altered, except you have to put your front fenders and stuff back on, along with the engine management.
This is not my opinion-this was a committee ruling, signed by Bobby Sykes.
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We are looking at un bolting our fenders off of our coupe and lengthening the nose, blocking off the radiator, removing headlights, bumpers, etc. So this will bring us into competition coupe, and we would want to be able to run GCC/XX and VGCC/XX
We were also contemplating not doing such extravagant changes, such as not lengthening the nose etc to stay in altered, but It looks like a pre 82 body cannot run in an altered class?
The jump between XXO/VGCC and /GCC, is easy-add engine management, and you are no longer qualified for vintage, and it moves you to /GCC.
Same for altered, except you have to put your front fenders and stuff back on, along with the engine management.
This is not my opinion-this was a committee ruling, signed by Bobby Sykes.
How did you get into altered 38flattie with a pre 82 body?
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So If you have a vintage coupe that is built for Competition Coupe Classes. Can I just pick if I want GCC or VGCC? IS there a rule that states you have to go into one or the other?
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We are looking at un bolting our fenders off of our coupe and lengthening the nose, blocking off the radiator, removing headlights, bumpers, etc. So this will bring us into competition coupe, and we would want to be able to run GCC/XX and VGCC/XX
We were also contemplating not doing such extravagant changes, such as not lengthening the nose etc to stay in altered, but It looks like a pre 82 body cannot run in an altered class?
The jump between XXO/VGCC and /GCC, is easy-add engine management, and you are no longer qualified for vintage, and it moves you to /GCC.
Same for altered, except you have to put your front fenders and stuff back on, along with the engine management.
This is not my opinion-this was a committee ruling, signed by Bobby Sykes.
How did you get into altered 38flattie with a pre 82 body?
I added engine management, which DQ's the car for vintage, and moved it to modified altered.
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So If you have a vintage coupe that is built for Competition Coupe Classes. Can I just pick if I want GCC or VGCC? IS there a rule that states you have to go into one or the other?
As Dan pointed out, you have to run in the lowest class you qualify for-Therefore, if you have an ignition that qualifies for vintage, you'll have to run vintage.
Again, though, if you add engine management, you won't qualify for vintage, so you will move to /GCC.
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This is something that has bugged me for years, but the rules clearly state:
"5.D.2. ALTERED COUPE..This class encompasses American and foreign coupe and sedan bodies 1982 to current year..."
"5.D.3. GAS COUPE...This class encompasses American and foreign coupe, sedan, and convertible bodies 1982 to current year..."
I don't see how an earlier car can compete.
Mike
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So just run a ignition system that changes advance with engine inputs for GCC and run a non programmable ignition system for VGCC. Something along those lines?
I just see in the rules in the first paragraph that it says pre 82 bodies for gas coupe and altered. So is kinda confusing like you cannot even run a vintage car in those classes.
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So just run a ignition system that changes advance with engine inputs for GCC and run a non programmable ignition system for VGCC. Something along those lines?
I just see in the rules in the first paragraph that it says pre 82 bodies for gas coupe and altered. So is kinda confusing like you cannot even run a vintage car in those classes.
At least Im not the only one that reads it this way :)
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So Now I am really confused.
Rules state no turbo's, no EFI, etc with vintage engines in vintage bodies.
So, does that rule really mean, no turbo's, no EFI in vintage body CLASSES???
So you can take a 37 chevrolet coupe, with a GMC engine, in XX0 or X0 class, run electronic fuel injection and turbos and run it in BGC? or BGCC?
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This is something that has bugged me for years, but the rules clearly state:
"5.D.2. ALTERED COUPE..This class encompasses American and foreign coupe and sedan bodies 1982 to current year..."
"5.D.3. GAS COUPE...This class encompasses American and foreign coupe, sedan, and convertible bodies 1982 to current year..."
I don't see how an earlier car can compete.
Mike
Read further, Mike. In "5.D.2.. it also says "Pre-1949 bodies may be chopped" and " Coupes and sedans produced from 1949 to the current model year, not meeting the criteria of the Classic Category, shall compete in the Modified Category classes.
As there is no XXO in Classic, you move to Modified.
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So Now I am really confused.
Rules state no turbo's, no EFI, etc with vintage engines in vintage bodies.
So, does that rule really mean, no turbo's, no EFI in vintage body CLASSES???
So you can take a 37 chevrolet coupe, with a GMC engine, in XX0 or X0 class, run electronic fuel injection and turbos and run it in BGC? or BGCC?
Simply-YES.
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Thanks.
Mr. Warner, I propose that the next rulebook be reworded to the effect of:
"5.D.2. ALTERED COUPE...This class encompasses American and foreign coupe and sedan bodies 1982 to current year, and coupes and sedan, 1949 to current year, not meeting the criteria of the Classic Category..."
"5.D.3. GAS COUPE...This class encompasses American and foreign coupe, sedan, and convertible bodies 1982 to current year, and coupes and sedan, 1949 to current year, not meeting the criteria of the Classic Category..."
Respectfully,
Mike :cheers:
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WOW, ok, for years I did not know this.
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Thanks.
Mr. Warner, I propose that the next rulebook be reworded to the effect of:
"5.D.2. ALTERED COUPE...This class encompasses American and foreign coupe and sedan bodies 1982 to current year, and coupes and sedan, 1949 to current year, not meeting the criteria of the Classic Category..."
"5.D.3. GAS COUPE...This class encompasses American and foreign coupe, sedan, and convertible bodies 1982 to current year, and coupes and sedan, 1949 to current year, not meeting the criteria of the Classic Category..."
Respectfully,
Mike :cheers:
But this states 49 to current year. What about 30's cars?
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Thanks.
Mr. Warner, I propose that the next rulebook be reworded to the effect of:
"5.D.2. ALTERED COUPE...This class encompasses American and foreign coupe and sedan bodies 1982 to current year, and coupes and sedan, 1949 to current year, not meeting the criteria of the Classic Category..."
"5.D.3. GAS COUPE...This class encompasses American and foreign coupe, sedan, and convertible bodies 1982 to current year, and coupes and sedan, 1949 to current year, not meeting the criteria of the Classic Category..."
Respectfully,
Mike :cheers:
But this states 49 to current year. What about 30's cars?
In "5.D.2.. it also says "Pre-1949 bodies may be chopped.
I already went through all of this, but the best thing you can do, is send your detailed proposal of switching from Vintage to Modified, to Bobby Sykes, drylakes207@yahoo.com.
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Ha!
ok..."1982 to current year, and any older coupe or sedan not meeting the criteria of the Classic Category..."
Mike
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I ran my 12 port GMC/'32 coupe in XXO/VAlt. No turbos allowed on a vintage engine in a vintage car. My turboed stock head Vega ran in what is now XO/GAlt. As did your Jag. No X classes in the Classic category. Both cars advanced into CC with the addition of a belly pan or pointy nose on the coupe.
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Ok, Rich, So a data management, ie electronic fuel injection can be ran in a vintage body, vintage engine in non vintage classes, such as 38flattie did with xxo/bfalt? But you cant run turbos?
Where does it specify that in the rule book? Since the rule book states that you cannot have electronic fuel injection or turbos in vintage engines in vintage bodies?
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Ok, Rich, So a data management, ie electronic fuel injection can be ran in a vintage body, vintage engine in non vintage classes, such as 38flattie did with xxo/bfalt? But you cant run turbos?
Where does it specify that in the rule book? Since the rule book states that you cannot have electronic fuel injection or turbos in vintage engines in vintage bodies?
No, read what Rich said again=he had a XO engine, in a 1932 coupe, and he ran Vintage. The TURBO moved it to XO/BGALT, and the bellypan or pointy nose allowed for XO/BGCC
If it isn't allowed in Vintage-EI, Turbo, engine management, etc, the car moves to modified, because there are no XO,XXO classes in Classic.
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"you cannot have electronic fuel injection or turbos in vintage engines in vintage bodies"
That pertains to running in the Vintage classes.
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"you cannot have electronic fuel injection or turbos in vintage engines in vintage bodies"
That pertains to running in the Vintage classes.
" For reasons of historical authenticity, vintage engine modificationas and equipment used shal be restricted to older technology levels, so far as practical. Accordingly, in classes XO, XF, XXF, XXO, V4 AND V4F USING VINTAGE BODIES"
So then it should read:
" For reasons of historical authenticity, vintage engine modificationas and equipment used shal be restricted to older technology levels, so far as practical. Accordingly, in classes XO, XF, XXF, XXO, V4 AND V4F USING VINTAGE BODIES IN VINTAGE BODY CLASSES " ?
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Yes, although once you get used to the rule book, it's really not that confusing.
....for the most part! :-D
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Yes, although once you get used to the rule book, it's really not that confusing.
....for the most part! :-D
Thats kinda a bit of a problem with the rule book. Once you been doing it for years, its simple, but to new guys like us, its a lot of question asking. It seems with most of the rules, that with just an added couple words or sentences, can free up A LOT of confusion. Last year I had the same issue with aluminum wheels and the lug nut question. After a hole bunch of questions, they now added about 3 more words, and it is not confusing at all.
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Yes, although once you get used to the rule book, it's really not that confusing.
....for the most part! :-D
Thats kinda a bit of a problem with the rule book. Once you been doing it for years, its simple, but to new guys like us, its a lot of question asking. It seems with most of the rules, that with just an added couple words or sentences, can free up A LOT of confusion. Last year I had the same issue with aluminum wheels and the lug nut question. After a hole bunch of questions, they now added about 3 more words, and it is not confusing at all.
The rule book is a work in progress at all times. When an issue is found corrections are discussed and changes made as required.
No perfect rule book in any organization from Formula 1 to Tractor Pullers.
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Yes, although once you get used to the rule book, it's really not that confusing.
....for the most part! :-D
Thats kinda a bit of a problem with the rule book. Once you been doing it for years, its simple, but to new guys like us, its a lot of question asking. It seems with most of the rules, that with just an added couple words or sentences, can free up A LOT of confusion. Last year I had the same issue with aluminum wheels and the lug nut question. After a hole bunch of questions, they now added about 3 more words, and it is not confusing at all.
The rule book is a work in progress at all times. When an issue is found corrections are discussed and changes made as required.
No perfect rule book in any organization from Formula 1 to Tractor Pullers.
I understand completely and am not complaining, but rather just trying to learn.
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Pretty simple when you have read the rule book for 50 years. It breaks down to this: 6 categories, classes within these categories. Rules pretend to categories first, class rules second.
Lowest primary class(if available) - if you have a '32 coupe with a XX vintage engine you must run in the Vintage CATEGORY classes. As Buddy states, add modern engine management you are out of the Vintage CATEGORY into the Modified CATEGORY. The body year breaks define the Classic CATEGORY or the Modified CATEGORY.
Best place to find where your combination falls is to look at the last line in every body class. It tells you which engine classes are allowed. If you have trouble with this look in the record section. If a record exists it will be listed.
DW
BTW, there are no Comp Coupe classes in the Classic CATEGORY. This was done because at the time Classic was established the voting board was reluctant to add a whole crap load of classes. There have been 6 engine breaks added since the category inception.
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Ok, it all makes sense now.
Vintage engine in A vintage body class requires no turbos, no engine management, etc.
A vintage engine in a vintage body in a modified class, IE Altered, Competition Coupe or Gas Coupe with and X or XX engine running EFI, TURBOS, etc, is allowed.
Am I correct?
So If I want to bounce between Competition Coupe XX or Vintage Gas Competition coupe switching between carbed or EFI will do this class change correct?
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Sure.
Did you check records?
DW
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[quote author=xxobuick link=topic=13943.msg251821#msg251821 date=1401217930
So If I want to bounce between Competition Coupe XX or Vintage Gas Competition coupe switching between carbed or EFI will do this class change correct?
[/quote]
Yes, but engine management is far simpler-we run a straight mag in Vintage, then add engine management to get to Modified comp coupe.
I'm with Dan-have you checked the records?
Good luck!
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Competition coupe X0 is 166
Vintage competition coupe is 158
Where gonna have an extended nose to try this year so well try those two records.
We have a small motor right now, and a stock and speacialty head to switch between x0 and xx0
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Why not jump between XXO/VFCC and XXO/VGCC? You won't have to do an engine management change.
DW
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That is also an option for us to consider.
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On re(un)thinking my thoughts on the manual spark (and throttle) controls on a Model A, it occurred to me that those would only be legal in V4F/Production. Unfortunately, the SCTA doesn't (yet) have this class. Time will tell.
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That is also an option for us to consider.
....and as Dan has pointed out has lower records :-),
Sum
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The #6969 Gas Coupe you are looking at happens to house a twin turbo, late model Hemi with EFI. This combination makes the car not legal for Classic Category.
DW
Is this statement true? I have plans to run a NA, EFI, LSX engine in an '80 Pontiac Sunbird (Monza clone) and I am hoping to run it in a Classic Altered class. Am I in trouble here? Please forgive the rookie question, I do not have my rule book yet.
SD
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The statement in the quote you referenced is correct.
You cannot run in any Classic Class with aftermarket EFI.
The #6969 Gas Coupe you are looking at happens to house a twin turbo, late model Hemi with EFI. This combination makes the car not legal for Classic Category.
DW
Is this statement true? I have plans to run a NA, EFI, LSX engine in an '80 Pontiac Sunbird (Monza clone) and I am hoping to run it in a Classic Altered class. Am I in trouble here? Please forgive the rookie question, I do not have my rule book yet.
SD
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But you can run OEM EFI. I don't know about re-flashing the computer and going to bigger nozzles. I would think not.
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OEM to the engine or to the body? I always assumed it was to the body. Are you saying I can run another maker's OEM EFI in my Studebaker powered Studebaker?
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Once again, What do I know? But as i remember, when this rule was proposed it ment you could run OEM EFI with the engine it came on. So, NO to EFI on the Stude. At the time a Buick V6 with factory EFI was the example of something you could run. I think it was the only EFI anybody would want to use at that time.
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Okay, I am running an OEM EFI computer and injection system, but I'm not swapping a stock engine into an altered coupe. It's an 'A' stroker LS engine, 454 cid, and there is no way to run something like that with stock injectors and factory tune. If I can't run injectors appropriate for the power (700 hp) and the tune to go with it I will be rethinking my interest in LSR. That's like saying you have to run the stock carb and jetting in your carb'd, stroker 'A' engine...
SD
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Maybe get a rule book and see what class you might fit. It's not customary for an organization to change their rules to accomodate each new entrant and what they might like to run. Hopefully a little further exploration will reveal a class that suits what you want to do.
I thought your name was somewhat familiar. I Googled it and realized right away where I'd seen it. I was fairly active in the homebuilt aircraft community quite some time ago. I hope this endeavour works out for you.
Pete
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Thanks Pete,
I'm not looking for concessions, I'm new here and just trying to find my nitch. I don't do well in over regulated sports so some of this is frustrating to me. I'll just roll with this for while, I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet...
Shirl
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Okay, I am running an OEM EFI computer and injection system, but I'm not swapping a stock engine into an altered coupe. It's an 'A' stroker LS engine, 454 cid, and there is no way to run something like that with stock injectors and factory tune. If I can't run injectors appropriate for the power (700 hp) and the tune to go with it I will be rethinking my interest in LSR. That's like saying you have to run the stock carb and jetting in your carb'd, stroker 'A' engine...
SD
You may be able to run that LSX with a carb, not sure on if coil packs and ECU's are
regulated in Classic categories. It can be done, but not with EFI in those classes. Can
always run Altered while benefiting from modern engine tech and older body aero...
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The LSX combo with EFI in a Monza will have to run in the MODIFIED category, ALTERED classes(because of the non-OEM frame).
The no EFI restriction in the classic classes does indeed refer to the body as Jim Dinceau remembers. Engine swaps are allowed in many, many classes but it is the body that places the car in the correct class by year break.
DW
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The category was created for people who felt they were being left behind by newer technology. They didn't want to get involved with EFI, or newer more aero body styles and other wizz bang stuff. So it was proposed that EFI would be disallowed. Then some people said, "What if I put in an engine that came with EFI?" So OEM EFI was allowed. But it is still a category for older, low tech cars. So you can use mechanical Fuel Injection or a carburetor in your Sunbird. I don't think a Monza body gives up much if anything to the other cars in Altered class. So if you really really want to use EFI you can just run in Alt.
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And now I just saw Rich's response . . . just run Altered.
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Stan,
Your records are safe from me for a few years. The 700 hp LSX I mentioned is my entry level engine made from left over parts I have laying around (that includes the car which I built for the Silver State 20 years ago). I'm running over 850 NA hp in my race boat, a 468 EFI LSX on corn against a 515 cid class limit. It's not easy running a small block in a big block world. I have also built 1000 hp NA LS motors (on C16) for drag cars... All it takes is money. I don't have a problem running Modified Altered, it just means I have to work harder... As mentioned above, my non OEM frame precludes Classic anyway. This is starting to look like a thead jack, sorry..
Shirl
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If you don't want to be over regulated run the lakester or streamliner Classes
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Edit . . . Then some people said, "What if I put in an engine that came with EFI?" So OEM EFI was allowed. But it is still a category for older, low tech cars.
So Rich are you saying you can do an engine swap (like an SBC into a falcon) and you can run the stock SBC EFI in Classic Gas? I know the rule allows OEM EFI on page 70, but I thought the motor (and its EFI) had to be OEM with the car, (like in a production class). Can Classic Gas Class swap in an different, manufacturer's modern engine and use the OEM EFI that came with the motor?
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That was my understanding. At the time this rule was implemented the purpose was to allow an engine swap that retained the EFI that the engine came with. Now we all know that rules have a way of evolving into something other than the original meaning, as the original rule makers move on and are replaced by new people who may not remember why that rule was adopted. For this reason, only the current board can give you a current reading on what is and isn't allowed today. I see that the rules say the ignition can be a crank trigger closed loop unit, but it must be original to the year and model of the car. Not the engine. How's that going to happen?
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I cant speak to the intentions of people 10+ ago, but in 2014 the only EFI that is allowed in Classic is OEM EFI for the year and body of the vehicle entered, not the engine. So if the CAR came with EFI, it was allowed to keep it.
That is what was told to a competitor by the Coupe and Sedan Committee this year when asked this exact question.
So, If you put a LS engine in a Monza in Classic then the stock LS EFI must be removed because it is not OEM for the vehicle entered. And in my opinion, ANYBODY showing up in Classic with any form of EFI will get their car picked to pieces to ensure the EFI is 100% OEM and little slack or sympathy will be shown. If you have EFI then run in Modified. Classic is for mechanical injection and carbs.
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That is my understanding also, but now I'm not sure. Rich also raised a good point on the ignition. I'll have another post up in a few minutes with pictures.
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I thought the intent in Classic was to not allow non-OEM EFI as well as computerized engine management or closed loop feedback to the ECU. But stock OEM stuff is ok. So back in 81 if coil-on-plug and closed loop ECU were stock, ok. But what car had all that stock in 81? And more importantly, would it be sophisticated enough to run it 33 years later without some (not allowed) modifications? It’s probably safe to say this part of the rule is intact and fairly well understood for production class. But Classic allows engine swaps in gas class. That kind of muddies the waters.
Page 70 is very clear that sensor controlled ignitions “are allowed but must be stock and unmodified in any way for the year and model of the vehicle entered.”
Here are pics of one of my most respected Classic cars. Pictures are from records set in 2010. Everybody runs a crank trigger ignition in Classic. (Even with carburetors). However, crank triggers are Hall Effect sensor triggered. So non-stock, modified, sensor controlled ignition are being used in all classic classes.
I think the intent was to not allow, distributorless, COP, computer controlled ignition, regardless of engine swap. That is quite a bit different from an MSD trigger wheel firing a distributor. But I don't know now. :?
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I don't know how many cars came with factory EFI between 1928 and 1981. None that I owned. I would say whoever told you that needs to think hard about how much sense it makes. The obvious thing to do to clear this up would be to ban any EFI, as was the first proposal. Or go the other way and make it run what you brung. And IMHO an even better idea would have been to just leave the Altered rules as they were and not have the Classic Category. Then everybody could run what they wanted and if you were not competitive, live with it. I do.
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Rich, I didn’t mean to infer that stuff was available pre 1981. I don’t know. What I meant was the way the rule is written it would allow pre-81 EFI stuff to be legal. If it existed at that time and is stock I have no problem with it running. Sometimes rules are written to avoid unintended consequences. And it appears they didn’t want to accidently excommunicate an OEM application they may not know about. As you can guess I love the Classic class and I can see why it was considered in the first place. But I also see your point about competing an older body in an aero battle. Any record is an especially big achievement.
But thanks for raising the ignition question. I was just starting a tear down a core EFI motor this week for Classic Gas and about to throw out the ignition harness assembly and most of the EFI stuff. This thread is timely and important to me.
This is the same car in 2011 in Impound with another record. Same crank trigger. You are looking down on top of the electric water pump. The crank trigger is underneath circled in red. A non-OEM, sensor controlled trigger is used all the time.
Maybe the rule should be clarified. Classic is about body style more than anything else and "some" older technologies. But an engine swap confuses that a little.
Opps . . . I see the pic is too dark. I tried to fix it in the next post.
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Opps, bad picture.
I purposely brightened and washed out unnecessary stuff. The red crank trigger shows up better here underneath the water pump.
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I just checked my Speed Week 2006 pics and here is the same car (in Impound as usual, :-)) with a non-stock MSD crank trigger. So it is pretty clear, for the past 4-6 years a Classic Category car has been setting records with a aftermarket crank trigger.
PS: I am not saying this car is illegal. It is perfectly legal. The rules allow CDI ignition with rev limiter. But then later say sensor controlled ignitions are allowed and shall be stock and not modified in any way for year and model of the vehicle entered. Clearly the bottom of page 70 needs to be edited and "EFI" added in front of "sensor controlled . . . "
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I believe they are talking about air intake temp sensors, knock sensors, O2 sensors, air flow sensors, etc that vary the timing and air fuel mixture in response to engine output and environment conditions. Not talking about the pickups used in crank triggers as they don't modify the way the engine is tuned on the fly.
An example is that knock sensors can be used to indicate detonation but not to pull back the timing, trigger water injection, or richen up the A/F. Sensor controlled does not just refer to EFI.
Sensors may be used to log any and all conditions but may not change the way the engine is operating on the fly.
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... Not talking about the pickups used in crank triggers as they don't modify the way the engine is tuned on the fly. ...
Seems like this discussion has come up before about the crank triggers and I thought that they were available and used prior to '82 so ok to use but don't quote me on that. As was mentioned previously going with a lakester build means there is a lot of the rule book you don't have to become familiar with :-D,
Sumner
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What I meant was the way the rule is written it would allow pre-81 EFI stuff to be legal....it appears they didn't want to accidentally excommunicate an OEM application they may not know about.
Exactly. Saying a 1981 or earlier car with factory EFI in completely stock configuration is illegal to race in classic would be silly so that is why the exception exists. There are a few vehicles out there as Bosch had their Jetronic systems available pre-82. But that is also why the rule requires them to remain stock if used. That requirement essentially kills them for use in a race application. Just pull them off and put on carbs or mech injection.
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At last, the answer.
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The LSX combo with EFI in a Monza will have to run in the MODIFIED category, ALTERED classes(because of the non-OEM frame).
The no EFI restriction in the classic classes does indeed refer to the body as Jim Dinceau remembers. Engine swaps are allowed in many, many classes but it is the body that places the car in the correct class by year break.
DW
Hello DW,
Please do not take offence to my question, I'm a noob in LSR. The comment about the non OEM frame kicking me out of classic category has been bothering me since I read it. Can you please site the rule that states that non OEM frames are not allowed in Classic. The only thing I can find regarding frames is in the general section that states:
2.C FRAMES/CHASSIS:
Except where specifically forbidden by class rules, any design frame may be used. The frame design is subject to the approval of the Contest Board and shall be of sufficient strength to resist flex or twist. The burden of proof of the strength of the frame design lies with the entrant.
I do not see any frame limitations in the Classic catagory rules. Can you provide clarification on this... On the slim chance that I would run a carb and distributor on my LSX I'd like to know if the frame makes this impossible. I would be happy to submit my frame to the Contest Board for review. On a side note, I do not see where the frame gives me any advantage (except for safety due to strength and rigidity over the unibody), its just that the car has been built with it and it would be near impossible to change it. I will be happy to run Modified Altered if I have to...
Regards,
SD
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If you look at the rule on page 70 5.C second paragraph starts with how the rules in classic follow the rules in modified and production categories.
Now flip over to page 75 under 5.D.3 the fifth paragraph is the requirements for the Gas Coupe class which includes the frame being the same year as as the body.
Enjoy your project
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Dyno,
Thanks for the info. I see that the Classic Gas classes have frame restrictions, however, following this logic, the Altered class specifies the following:
Any frame may be used as long as the bottom line of the frame is not higher than the outer bottom line of the body between the firewall and the rear wheels.
This would seem to indicate that 'any frame' meeting the stipulated conditions would be allowed in the Classic Altered class. Agree or disagree?
SD
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Correct
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Mike pointed you to the correct area re: frame. As a point if we copied all the rules in the Modified Category to the Classic Category the rule book would be much bigger than it has to be. A simple sentence referring the builder to the Modified rules, which the Classic classes must follow, precludes this requirement.
My sentence, quoted by you, refers to your original plan to build a Classic Gas Coupe, OEM frame required.. The frame moves the car to the Altered class, any frame can be used. If I am correct you stated that you wanted to use EFI in your original plan. That is what I suggested would move you to Modified Category, Altered classes.
DW
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Thanks for the clarification, I'm starting to understand my options better now. Not sure which way I will go, but I'm partial to my EFI so chances are I'll head for Modified, Altered and since I have a lot of experience with E85 I might just jump in the deep end and go unblown fuel...
SD
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. . . On a side note, I do not see where the frame gives me any advantage (except for safety due to strength and rigidity over the unibody...
In our sport performance it is not all about the motor or aero. There is a 3rd variable and some say even a fourth. When you are driving on ice, pushing 200mph with 600lbs of down force on the front end, “variable” toe can be exciting! The Monza unibody construction (without even a front clip) is a flexi-flyer. A rigid frame that provides better drivability is definitely a performance advantage. Some say the fourth variable is the size of the driver’s testicles. :-D
Geeze . . . it was just a joke . . .let the flames begin :cheers: