Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA Rules Questions => Topic started by: yarp on March 30, 2014, 03:07:54 PM
-
I can't decide if it should be gas coupe and sedan or modified sports.
The car is completely original externally other than being lowered.
Seems like the engine swap forces me into modified sports???
appreciate any help.
-
If it had a back seat it is not a GT car. Only GT cars can move into modified sports.
-
so the engine swap would make it gas coupe.
-
My understanding is that all supras came with rear seats, but i'm not an expert.
So it looks like gas coupe
Post some pictures! please
-
Except, its currently setup on E85.
I just found out that I have to bring my own E85 to Wilmington, and I was planning on driving the car there.
so gas coupe with a re-tune.
or
FGC on E85...though I don't see a fuel gas coupe class.
No pics yet. Ninja stealth mode and all. I don't even have a license yet and if I don't get the car sorted I might have to rookie up in a hyundai. *shudders*
-
There will not be a fuel "GAS" coupe class. The name of the class is GAS coupe, use the provided gas or be subjected to a gas check if you are using pump gas. E85 puts you into a "FUEL" class be it Fuel Altered(check other requirements) or Fuel Modified Sports if the body is deemed to be a sports car vrs. a sedan.
Good luck,
DW
-
Get clarification from ECTA.
Pete
-
Who at the ECTA should I ask for clarification?
-
Go into "Welcome" in the ECTA website and pick "contacts". There's an e-mail address there for rules questions.
Where are you really located? If you go into your profile and change your location to what it really is then it's quite likely that there's someone close that may be able to help you.
Pete
-
Yarp,
To run in the ‘Gas Class’, you are allowed to run unlead, leaded or oxygenated gas. Nitro and alcohol require you to run in the ‘Fuel Class’.
Do you have a current rule book?
Joe
-
Yarp, you just got your answer from THE MAN at ECTA.
Joe, thanks for posting. It's really appreciated when someone with authority monitors this site and can give definitive answers.
Pete
-
Yarp,
To run in the ‘Gas Class’, you are allowed to run unlead, leaded or oxygenated gas. Nitro and alcohol require you to run in the ‘Fuel Class’.
Do you have a current rule book?
Joe
yes sir, 2014 rule book has no mention of E85 (perhaps because of the alcohol content?) , but talk around these forums says that puts me in the fuel class. I'm just trying to figure out which fuel class.
unblown fuel altered maybe?
-
yes sir, 2014 rule book has no mention of E85 (perhaps because of the alcohol content?) , but talk around these forums says that puts me in the fuel class. I'm just trying to figure out which fuel class.
unblown fuel altered maybe?
[/quote]
I could be wrong, but depending on the displacement of the LSX engine, you would probably run in one of the following Fuel Coupe classes: AA/FC, A/FC, B/FC, or C/FC. The engine swap knocks you out of Production and puts you into the Coupe class (which is a level within the Modified category), but you need more modifications (e.g., a step pan, a large engine setback, or covered headlights and grille) to move into Altered. The use of E85 knocks you out of gas and into fuel. So you're basically a Gas Coupe that's not using gasoline, which makes you a Fuel Coupe...
Gary
-
I could be wrong, but depending on the displacement of the LSX engine, you would probably run in one of the following Fuel Coupe classes: AA/FC, A/FC, B/FC, or C/FC. The engine swap knocks you out of Production and puts you into the Coupe class (which is a level within the Modified category), but you need more modifications (e.g., a step pan, a large engine setback, or covered headlights and grille) to move into Altered. The use of E85 knocks you out of gas and into fuel. So you're basically a Gas Coupe that's not using gasoline, which makes you a Fuel Coupe...
Gary
There isn't a /FC class, only /FCC (comp. coupe) which requires one of several major modifications to run.
/FALT or /FMS, depending on how the Supra is defined, would be the right classes for this car. For ECTA it
could also run /FRS if running a carb or /FSS if running EFI.
-
There isn't a /FC class, only /FCC (comp. coupe) which requires one of several major modifications to run.
/FALT or /FMS, depending on how the Supra is defined, would be the right classes for this car. For ECTA it
could also run /FRS if running a carb or /FSS if running EFI.
Sounds like if I just bring a roll of duct tape I can run /FALT
Cant do /FMS cause of the backseat is what I'm being told.
-
I could be wrong, but depending on the displacement of the LSX engine, you would probably run in one of the following Fuel Coupe classes: AA/FC, A/FC, B/FC, or C/FC. The engine swap knocks you out of Production and puts you into the Coupe class (which is a level within the Modified category), but you need more modifications (e.g., a step pan, a large engine setback, or covered headlights and grille) to move into Altered. The use of E85 knocks you out of gas and into fuel. So you're basically a Gas Coupe that's not using gasoline, which makes you a Fuel Coupe...
Gary
There isn't a /FC class, only /FCC (comp. coupe) which requires one of several major modifications to run.
/FALT or /FMS, depending on how the Supra is defined, would be the right classes for this car. For ECTA it
could also run /FRS if running a carb or /FSS if running EFI.
See...I *knew* I could be wrong...LOL...
But I'm curious--is there a particular reason that there isn't an /FC class? /GCC and /FCC cars have the same body modifications but just run different fuels, and the same thing goes for /GALT and /FALT cars, right?
-
Several years ago(20+) the Fuel Coupe class existed. The rules for /FC and /GAlt were exactly the same. The Fuel Coupe class name was changed to Fuel Altered where it stays to this day. "GAS" coupe remains as a separate class.
DW
-
Several years ago(20+) the Fuel Coupe class existed. The rules for /FC and /GAlt were exactly the same. The Fuel Coupe class name was changed to Fuel Altered where it stays to this day. "GAS" coupe remains as a separate class.
DW
Ah, gotcha. Thanks!
Gary
-
Rereading my post it should have said ..."rules for /FC and /FALT were exactly the same." ...
DW
-
Rereading my post it should have said ..."rules for /FC and /FALT were exactly the same." ...
DW
considering that /GC and G/Alt are significantly different, I think we should go back to the /FC designation as simply a /GC or /Pro running fuel. Ha, splitter rather than lumper. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
A new set of "cherry picking ready" records. :-D
-
Jack,
2014 is the correct year to propose a new class. You can add your idea to the list along with the guy who wants a NASCAR class.
DW
-
^^ There already is a Circle Track "NASCAR" class for ECTA.
To the OP, in ECTA, you can run 'up' in classes meaning that you need to find the lowest class that you will qualify, then you can run in a more 'difficult' class. e.g. if your car is D/FALT, you can run up in engine classes to C/ or B/FALT etc. or up in chassis classes such as D/FCC.
In reality, it doesn't matter what class you run in unless you expect to get a record. No official will tell you "you cannot run in that class" as you will not undergo record scrutiny until you surpass a record. You must, however, meet the safety rules for that class, including meeting all of the safety regs for the record speed in that class.
If in doubt and if you do not expect to set a record your first time out (very few do) then pick the class that, during speaking with Joe Timney or Keith Turk, they suggest to you, OR run Time Only. Once you run your car through tech inspection, have Joe or Keith walk you through everything that is right or wrong with your setup. It is a bit intimidating at first, but everything they say has a good reason and has your safety in mind.
-
. . . . . if your car is D/FALT, you can run up in engine classes to C/ or B/FALT etc. or up in chassis classes such as D/FCC.
. . .
One minor correction. If I am correct you CANNOT run up in chassis class unless the car is changed to meet the rules of the new class. It is pretty common to see ECTA Production Class cars cover part of the headlights or grill with tape (adding 'streamlining' forward of the cowl) to move from Production to Altered. To move up to Comp Coupe you would have to chop the top or add a belly pan or extend the nose.
-
Rereading my post it should have said ..."rules for /FC and /FALT were exactly the same." ...
DW
considering that /GC and G/Alt are significantly different, I think we should go back to the /FC designation as simply a /GC or /Pro running fuel. Ha, splitter rather than lumper. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
A new set of "cherry picking ready" records. :-D
As a member is good standing of the East Coast Cherry Pickers Association (ECCPA) I am always on the lookout for low hanging fruit! And then "I pays me money and jump classes to another low hanging fruit" (My best Pop Eye voice). The ladies always take my fee and send me on my merry way! Low and behold guess what? Yup, someone looks and says "That Plm Krze record is soft, I CAN beat that". They also get in line and give money to the ladies. Last meet I mentioned to a fellow competitor that I was in a certain class and slowly bumping the record up. Yup, he got in line and paid the ladies! Pushed the record well past what Plm Krze can run. Oh well, guess I need to look else where, Orrrrrr make the car faster!
Crazy huh? Seems it is all about giving money to the ladies.
Oops the cat is out of the bag. The conspiracy line is forming on the left.
Me, I see cherries in the Fuel Production classes. Crap now everyone knows my plan.
Seriously, to the OP. Be safe, go fast, have fun. When you get to Wilmington it will all work out.
P.S.
To all to Cherry Pickers out there I am passing along that "The Great Waldo Pepper", shop cat extra-ordinary is in failing health. He has said that Cherry Picking should continue and that all new Cherry Picker association requests are approve. He wanted to thank the Northern European pickers for there support. I will keep you updated on his condition.
-
Have you ever thought of just printing your own certificates? Would save wear and tear and help save the planet from global warming. (Yes, I know, the trees, etc.)
-
Naw ...... much more fun to get something back from those nice ladies.
Global warming is good. Keeps those aliens from the really cold planets from showing too much interest.
Having fun before it's too late!
Regards,
Gross polluter and ECCPA associate member,
DS
Now back to the original, long-lost thread.
-
Now back to the original, long-lost thread.
Yep Unblown Fuel Altered is where I'll be if I pass tech.
Since my engine class is D I'll be running D/FALT for my rookie passes.
Default
heh
I can't decide if that's lucky or just funny
-
you have a 4.8 in that thing? Why e85? if its registered wouldn't it be easier just to run in d/fss
-
you have a 4.8 in that thing? Why e85? if its registered wouldn't it be easier just to run in d/fss
I didn't do the conversion. It was originally setup to be twin turbo, but there's not quite room. Too be totally honest, its growing on me. Smells like a moonshine still when its loping away.
-
how do you know its a 4.8 and not a 5.3? They're exactly the same on the outside?
-
how do you know its a 4.8 and not a 5.3? They're exactly the same on the outside?
Well I am trusting the technician who rebuilt the engine. It has flat top pistons.
I also have no reason to believe he'd lie to me about the smallest, least desire-able engine available.
Why? Am I stepping on someones 4.8l toes?
-
I had flat-top pistons in a Model A, but I don't think it was a 4.8.
-
I had flat-top pistons in a Model A, but I don't think it was a 4.8.
Stan I think the Model A was four cylinders not 4.8! Wait is that cylinders or? :cheers:
-
You're not stepping on toes, I think Dave was probably
asking just to make sure. Seeing as every iron LS looks
exactly the same from the outside... I've driven to quite
a few junkyards and CL leads for a "6.0" only to find a
5.3 or 4.8 awaiting me.
-
how do you know its a 4.8 and not a 5.3? They're exactly the same on the outside?
Well I am trusting the technician who rebuilt the engine. It has flat top pistons.
I also have no reason to believe he'd lie to me about the smallest, least desire-able engine available.
Why? Am I stepping on someones 4.8l toes?
Heh, funny. You got a a long way to go before you step on my toes... :mrgreen:
All jokes aside. I was asking because a 4.8l is actually a 5.3 block with a shorter stroke. The block is even cast with the 5.3L designation on it. The only way to tell is to measure the stroke. If you're not 100% sure you should run in the next engine class up. As far as not desirable, i think you might be a little confused....
-
Heh, funny. You got a a long way to go before you step on my toes... :mrgreen:
I didn't mean you, but you're right. I don't even have a rookie license yet so I'm pretty sure if I did step on you, you wouldn't feel it.
All jokes aside. I was asking because a 4.8l is actually a 5.3 block with a shorter stroke. The block is even cast with the 5.3L designation on it. The only way to tell is to measure the stroke. If you're not 100% sure you should run in the next engine class up. As far as not desirable, i think you might be a little confused....
It came out of an 01 Silverado as did the 4l60e I'm using. The engine was disassembled inspected cleaned and rebuilt by someone I trust. He had a hell of a time selling it because it was small, and automatic. Everyone out there on the street or strip wants big inch power. I traded a pile of SBC parts and cars for this pre-swapped supra just so I could have my first LSX. I didn't give a hoot that it was a 4.8 cause I wanted one anyway for the short stroke. It's dead stock other than a corvette pan and intake. base E85 tune. I'm not really a supra fanboy so it won't bother me a nights sleep to start stripping and welding on a rust free car. I'm busting my ass to try and pass tech in May and rookie up. I'm positive its a 4.8l but doesn't impound have a way of testing displacement if it becomes an issue?
-
I think those flat-top pistons are a clue.
-
I've driven to quite
a few junkyards and CL leads for a "6.0" only to find a
5.3 or 4.8 awaiting me.
See?
Whats so wrong with a 4.8?
Especially an old tired girl that I got all liquored up on the cheap stuff. (I even used my kroger plus card , race gas , hah! , I fart in your general direction)
She wants to spin her guts out for a last hurrah.
I feel obliged to ride her.
-
Nothing wrong with a 4.8... They make great D motors for little money.
We opted for a 6.0 to be at the top of C class limits, that's all. A 4.8 with
turbos should make good power. 800+whp with good parts.
-
^^^ This
-
I have no idea what that means.
-
I have no idea what that means.
He was agreeing with my previous statement that the 4.8 is a good starting point
for a D class motor. You can make good power with them. Obviously the lack of CI
will limit potential, and even with the shorter stroke from the factory you still won't
want to spin in past 6,500RPM, really 6,000 unless the springs have been upgraded.
That's the beauty of power adders- big power without having to spin (break) parts.
We built and tuned our combo to make peak power below the "danger zone" of LS
motors, which is realistically 7,000RPM without spending too much money. We run
the cast OEM crank and make over 1,000 hp & tq. No point in spinning it too high.
Dave, Mike and I have broken a lot of parts over the past 10 years, and we are
merely trying to help guide you in a direction that will (hopefully) allow you to go
fast without breaking the bank.
-
^^^^ This. :cheers: But my motor still turns 9200+ rpm
-
^^^^ This. :cheers: But my motor still turns 9200+ rpm
Your motor is a mutant beast of epic proportions, Dave. When springs and push rods cost
more money than my entire engine, I hope the things spins to the moon :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
-
your enigine was only $1500?
-
your enigine was only $1500?
Well Dave that would be 386.00 to be exact. The springs and retainers were free courtesy of PAC Racing Springs. :-P
-
Okay, WORTH more than most of my engine. The 6.0 and LSA heads cost $1500.
-
with rods,pistons,cam....? doubt it...
-
^^^^ This. :cheers: But my motor still turns 9200+ rpm
wow
I was hoping to make 7500 before launcing parts, but I bet the rev limiter on this tune is 6500. I really have no idea yet.
-
Dave is running a Dart Buick headed dry sump small block BUILT to spin
that high. You can certainly spin a stock LS to 7,500 but you WILL break
stuff.
Our rev limiter is set @ 6,700, my shift light is at 6,200. With a RR4 Jerico
(clutchless shifting) I generally see 6,500 on the recall after a run. We made
peak power right around 6,500 with an intercooled S488 on VP C16 gas. You
don't need a giant cam when you go turbo, I think we run something in the
240's I & E with .650 lift.
-
Lukes cam is cute... You really need GREAT springs, Oversized Pushrods, and Shaft rockers if you want to live over 7200 for long periods. Drag racers got it easy. WOT for 24 seconds at high rpm is bad for parts.
-
z06 springs but rockers and pushrods are stock. I gotta stay around 6500 anyway this meet.
-
jesus man, buy some push rods. One solid ding on the rev limiter and they're bent, you won't even know it until it breaks. They're dirt cheap.
-
I just knocked the exhaust off on a speed bump during a leg stretching shakedown drive.
fark
I think I have bigger problems than those pushrods to get resolved before may 3rd.
Where do I ask for help finding a tubing bender nearby?
-
Any muffler shop should have a bender. If you want a higher quality system buy straight pipe from the muffler shop, with no coating and u-bends from a local speed shop, than fabricate the system.
Pete
-
my local shops bender is broken. next best shop can't get me in until may 12th...
am i going to fail tech with a bunch of autozone sections, bends and parts? I can't really find an exhaust specific section of rules for altered.
isn't there a tech inspection friday may 2nd at time?
-
you're in dublin oh, google shows at least 10 midas and monro mufflers. a repair should take under an hour unless the entire exhaust fell off and you didn't go to pick it back up. Don't be that guy that leaves half his car on the track. Seek professional assistance :cheers:
-
you're in dublin oh, google shows at least 10 midas and monro mufflers. a repair should take under an hour unless the entire exhaust fell off and you didn't go to pick it back up. Don't be that guy that leaves half his car on the track. Seek professional assistance :cheers:
tis not a muffler. needs completely redone manifold back including 3 bungs and custom bends to be tucked up, "right" and not embarrass me when someone looks under the car. im really not worried about leaving pieces of it at wilmington since there are no "speed control devices" in the pits. I am however worried about the drive to wilmington since I am not trailering the car. Don't want to miss the race because of railroad tracks or potholes. What kind of ground clearance to do you guys build to? I've seen some REALLY low cars at wilmington but did not take notice of exhaust routing.
-
To be safe you need at least three inches ground clearance and be aware of what your driving on. Speed bumps and even entering gas station driveways will get your attention. Summitt and Jegs both offer excelent mandrel bends all sizes and gauges as well as straight pipe many race cars are built using pipes from those suppliers. Theres still plenty of time to put together a nice exhaust system :cheers:
-
I added airbags front and rear to my car to get ground clearance.
They were supplemental to the suspension I raced with, the car was not drivable on the street without them.
Don
-
Latest issue [July '14] of Rod and Custom has an article on building a custom twin exhaust system for a 6 cylinder. Sidebar shows how to cut, rotate, and reweld mandrel bends to make everything up [including an X pipe] without a bender. Well worth a look, the basic methods can be applied to any custom system.
Most advise locating the O2 sensors/bungs between either the 1&2 or 10&11 o'clock positions for optimum results and sensor life.
Ed
-
I added airbags front and rear to my car to get ground clearance.
They were supplemental to the suspension I raced with, the car was not drivable on the street without them.
Don
Yarrr thats where I was, undriveable.
Now i have lifting blocks in the lowered springs, and the ride went to hell, but i can make it over most obstacles without that old hotrod scrape.
I figure i can drive to wilmington, jack it up and remove the blocks for racing.
this setup should allow me to rookie up and buy more time to get the exhaust into a proper shop.
I also found out the rev limiter is set at 5800.... :-( stupid base tune
-
Thats a good place for it until you get pushrods.
-
stupid car
every time I fix one thing I find two more things wrong.
-
Oh... wait until you start RACING it. For every little thing you'll need several hard to find
$300 parts to meet each and every one of many many many requirements... And (hopefully)
you'll love every minute of it... after you get some speed under your Acura, that is :cheers:
-
$300? I'm at $1000 per item. I guess thats why i'm still faster than you luke
-
Hahaha. That's right, Dave.
-
Yes, I recall at Maxton running into town on various occasions and buying spark plug wires, spark plugs, a starter and a water pump. Do you know what a pain in the arse it is to swap out those things on an LT1 Firebird at the track??? (boo Optispark! )Welcome to racing!
-
We had to have our valve stems replaced,
change the water pump, weld up out chute
mount, fix the torque arm. Maxton in July,
~100 degrees in the shade :evil:
-
why so many water pumps?
-
Water pumps break sometimes. See my previous
post about LS pump cavitation at higher RPM's. It
just happens sometimes.
-
See my previous
post about LS pump cavitation at higher RPM's. It
just happens sometimes.
Where?
-
Water pumps break sometimes. See my previous
post about LS pump cavitation at higher RPM's. It
just happens sometimes.
You should check out the Meziere Belt driven water pump for the LS engine. They are used on a lot of Off-Road trophy trucks.
-
I have my heart set on a meziere electric, since I also have an electric MR2 P/S pump on the shelf for phase2 of the project.
I now have 2.5' of exhaust clearance and haven't scraped on anything in the last 4 shakedown drives.
-
I've heard little good about the Meziere pumps for
LS motors; why (and no $) we don't run one. If you
under drive the pump (15% IIRC) it works great and
no cavitation issues. I haven't seem their belt driven
pumps; may be worth a look. I know that Moroso was
going to release an adapter for BBC electric pumps,
which are much cheaper, to LS motors. Saw it at
Autorama a few years back, haven't checked on it
since...
Good job on the exhaust! It's the little things that help
us keeping working at it... Good luck in Ohio. :cheers:
-
I can't find your previous post about the pumps. what RPM are you getting cavitation issues at?
-
2.5'(feet) of exhaust clearance should be plenty. Almost Tropy Truck territory.
DW
-
I can't find your previous post about the pumps. what RPM are you getting cavitation issues at?
6,200+ for prolonged periods (back when we had 3.42 gears)
can cause cavitation. We are under-driving the pump and run
2.47 gears; we're over for 6K for short blips 1st through 3rd
then going through the traps at 200+ mph. The pump being
under-driven can take nearly 7K now without issue, but like
I posted before, that's not advisable on a stock LS motor.
2.5'(feet) of exhaust clearance should be plenty. Almost Tropy Truck territory.
DW
No kidding, Dan. Surely he meant 2.5" but still funny. Ohio and Maine
are smooth enough, that should be plenty. Maxton? You would still
drag here and there :-D
-
what does gear ratio have to do with pump cavitation? was it the acceleration of the motor doing it?
-
what does gear ratio have to do with pump cavitation? was it the acceleration of the motor doing it?
Taller gears -> we're lower in the RPM range in 4th gear with the 2.47 gears.
LS1/T56 and 3.42 gears we were pulling higher revs for longer durations. Now
we hit 200mph right at 6,000RPM in 4th gear. Even 220mph is right at 6,500.
-
2.5'(feet)
shazbot, didn't catch that
*snip*
that still with a t56?
-
Our T56 would've died long ago. We got
a great deal on a rebuilt Jerico RR4 and
Lakewood bellhousing, Dave (greenjunk)
hooked us up with a Quartermaster 7.25"
clutch.
Clutchless shifting = BLISS :cheers:
-
I look forward to meeting you guys.
you've all been very helpful.
-
I won't be there til the July meet, but Dave
(green junk) will be trying to win the HRM
jackets... Best of luck to them and all of the
racers this weekend.
-
I won't be there til the July meet, but Dave
(green junk) will be trying to win the HRM
jackets... Best of luck to them and all of the
racers this weekend.
Luke, To bad your not here this weekend. Your -20 suit would feel REAL good.....Kinda chilly here!
I left NC this morning wearing a t-shirt and shorts and rapidly changed as soon as I got to the hotel! LOL!
Here's hoping the Maty boys will repeat for the HRM jacket!
See you guys in July!
Gregg
-
You too, Gregg! Pop by WS on your way home
if you'd like. Have a great weekend in Ohio!
-
121.1306
She was bouncing off the rev limiter for the last 1/8 mile in third gear and never saw overdrive.
Melted down the fuel pump relay...lol
I had to steal one from Joe Grier to get home. Hope I can contact him and return the part or favor somehow.
Guess I have to get control of this 4l60 and see what she'll really trap.
Thank you, everyone.
-
Joe, 121.1306 is a good start.....Unfortunately, now you are hooked so get ready to spend some money! :-D
I got several pics of your car and the links are in the 2014 Kickoff thread under ECTA General Chat.
Gregg
PS
I'm the old dude with the moustache that talked with you several times Friday and Saturday.
-
With the stock LS pump the thermostat is in the inlet of the pump causing a restriction to the pump. Something to try is removing the thermostat and plugging the bypass port. This may help your cavitation issues.