Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Huffy047 on March 03, 2014, 07:27:47 AM
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I searched but could not find a definiation of "Drain Holes" in the engine area when useing a Belly Pan. Can anyone comment on this? How many and how big?
Tks!
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As many as it takes to not confine liquid anywhere in the belly pan. So if it is contoured, or has several low spots, a small hole in those areas that will drain liquids... 1/2 inch... I would have several.
Consider if you threw a rod through the oil pan, how much oil do you want pooling up to catch fire on the headers? When reading the rules it is often hard to understand what happened to someone to inspire the rule... unfortunately a lot of our rules are written in blood.
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At that point an engine diaper to contain the blast, and soak up the oil to keep it off headers would be a necessity. I would think the two in conjunction would work together better han just a belly pan with drain holes...
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Stainless;
Didn't that rule come about due to Bob Herda's streamliner fire?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Or possibly Lynn Goodfellow's Mormon Missile fire.
Doug
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The Mormon Missile fire was superheated/flaming coolant being blown back through the (vertical) bulkhead behind the engine/in front of Lynn.
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I have an overlapping gap in the belly pans right at the rear motor plate/firewall which will allow all fluids to evacuate. Aluminum shields from header flange down to belly pan helps keep oil from headers
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Not the cheapest way to go, but what is your race car worth, or your safety. With an engine fire at 200+ MPH, you're going to be on your own for at least a minute.
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The rule has been there a long time, don't know who had a problem that resulted in the rule, you want fluids to exit, not pool.
Make it so... :cheers:
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On my C/FALT Studebaker, I am allowed to run a step pan from the rear motor plate back to the rear frame rail kick up.
I thought I had is pretty well sealed up but when I split my 7 gallon oil tank (which sits in the right rear passenger seat) while on Dick Elverud's elevated (above ground) chassis dyno, it quickly became apparent where every pinhole was.
The entire bottom of the car looked like Niagara Falls only with 50W race oil pouring six feet to the ground and on the rollers.
Unfortunately, Dick didn't have a four foot by six foot drain pan handy, because that's what we needed. What a f**king mess........................
After a multi hour cleanup I towed the race car home, parked the trailer on a gravel spot in my back yard and let it drip for a week. Next I got the car in the shop and had another mess to clean up. But no, it wasn't over yet, I still had the trailer to deal with.
That's when I went from a moderate drinker to a top flight professional souse...........................
Ol' One Run (67 now and still dumber than a sack full of hammers).
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7 gallons?
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yep.........
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What's Jiffy Lube charge ya for an oil change? :mrgreen:
Mike
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It's about $175. every two passes if I do it myself (dang methanol and Nitro).
:-P :-o :-P
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It's about $175. every two passes if I do it myself (dang methanol and Nitro).
:-P :-o :-P
Ol' One Run:
Every other year? :evil:
Mike
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It's about $175. every two passes if I do it myself (dang methanol and Nitro).
:-P :-o :-P
Ol' One Run:
Every other year? :evil:
Mike
That is a stinging blow!
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At that point an engine diaper to contain the blast, and soak up the oil to keep it off headers would be a necessity. I would think the two in conjunction would work together better han just a belly pan with drain holes...
I suggested engine diapers a few years ago but they didn't show any interest, sure would help keep debris and oil off the courses.
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At that point an engine diaper to contain the blast, and soak up the oil to keep it off headers would be a necessity. I would think the two in conjunction would work together better han just a belly pan with drain holes...
I suggested engine diapers a few years ago but they didn't show any interest, sure would help keep debris and oil off the courses.
I wonder if that is because we are more concerned with the driver than the course in this situation. If the oil is trapped in the diaper it is still in the car where it could burn. In this case I think I'd want it outside the car in case there was a fire,
Sum
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Mike, every third year.................... :-P :-P
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Maybe we could get DEPENDS as a major sponsor- even on the front of the event T-shirts!
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Thanks to all, from this I see one person commented to as many as needed 1/2" holes? I'll do that and hope I can get through tech.
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Huffy, first contact the tech chairman for what ever category you run.
If in fact you show up and a problem is noted, I am pretty sure that duct tape would suffice as a quick fix, and don't buy the cheap sh*t, buy Nassua 357 at Home Depot.
You may want to limit the number of holes you drill so as to keep as much salt OUT as possible. You can always add more.
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Stainless;
Didn't that rule come about due to Bob Herda's streamliner fire?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
No the rule was there before Herdas fire. At a drivers meeting the day after this was made clear.
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Thanks to all, as Bob says, if the officials are not happy, "Just drill more", sometimes the simplest souloutions are the hardest to figure out.
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Run a line or two from the drain holes to a catch can?
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Run a line or two from the drain holes to a catch can?
Only if you don't want to pass tech... :cheers:
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One year I did a lot of body work on the liner. Going thru tech the guy ask, do you have drain holes, answer yes sir , 5 of them, he ran his hand over the bottom to check , I don't feel any thing, I took a feel, nothing, I had marked the holes and Stainless had forgot to drill the holes! That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!! :-D
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:-D :-D
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One year I did a lot of body work on the liner. Going thru tech the guy ask, do you have drain holes, answer yes sir , 5 of them, he ran his hand over the bottom to check , I don't feel any thing, I took a feel, nothing, I had marked the holes and Stainless had forgot to drill the holes! That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!! :-D
:-o Hey, I resemble that remark
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Stainless, there ain't nothing Holy about you as far as I can tell..................................... :evil: :evil: :roll:
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To All,
My real job is making machinery to make oil sorbents. I would bet that 70% of the leak they had in the gulf a couple years ago was produced on our equipment. I know this industry well.
Sometimes we just cant get a engine completely sealed in our Stock cars and actually put a diaper on it made out of Meltblown Polypropylene. I could probably make a few rolls and see if there would be a way to put some sort of fire retardant on the fabric to minimize burning if an engine blew up and try to get the best of both worlds. Keeping the fire at bay and hopefully keeping the oil off the salt. At worst case I can donate Sorbent rolls to the safety crew to use in an oil spill. We have lots of times we are running a pilot line where we could make some extra rolls....
If anyone wants me to pursue this let me know who to contact ( safety truck, rules people, etc) and get the ball rolling. If we did come up with one that had fire retardant in it I would bring enough along to give it to any racer who wanted it.
Burton
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I would think that coating the inside of your engine compartment, especially cars with belly pans and lakesters and streamliners, with something like Rust-Oleum's "Never Wet" liquid repelling treatment. This pretty much eliminates any oil from remaining on the treated surface and should accelerate fluids draining to the drain holes and also make cleaning the engine compartment a lot easier.
Rex
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One more question. Attaching the pan in my application looks easiest if I pop rivit it to the bottom of the car. This will make inspection by the officials very hard to do in the rear area. Am I going to have to remove it for them to see? The car is a roadster and the cockpit will be sealed from the top where the driver sits and the bottom seal also. The trunk has a water tank in it that seals the entire trunk?
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For a new car with a belly pan attached with rivets you will have to drill them out then reattach. How will you perform maintenance with that attachment method?
DW
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Huffy, what I did was install NutSerts in to the frame works, and bolt the pan on (do not over tighten or use locktight on the threads or you will spin the nutsert!).
I then cover the bolt head with RTV sealant and have never had a problem.
If you would rather use Dzus fasteners, I recommend covering the head with duct tape (as always, Nassua 357, not cheap shit).
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I realize drilling rivits out is a pain, we have been three times and so far no maintence on anything was needed. The real question remains "Are the tech people going to need the pan removed"?
This is a new car with most parts from the car we have already run, I do plan to use at least three sections, front middle and rear with the rear the one that might have to be removed for a gear change?
Thanks for your input!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Huffy, with a new car or chassis they have to see it all for you to get the frame sticker and log book. What I would recommend is rolling it into tech with cleco's holding the pan on and if they don't want to see it at least you won't be sent to the back of the line........................
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Huffy, where do you live, there might be a inspector near you or better yet ask SCTA tech committee on the web site.
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I know you're serious in asking where Huffy is -- but if he doesn't respond I'll put him somewhere, okay? I'm thinking it's time to pick on the states in the south/east, so I'd place him in maybe someplace like Analictus, Alabama or maybe Grumpy Guy, Georgia.
Huffy -- it's up to you to save yourself from getting a new home. Here's the story, by the way, on why we're teasing you. Many, many of newcomers to our Forum don't put anything in the blank (on the profile page of registration) labeled LOCATION. Glen's question is a fine example of why we ask you to fill out that line -- so maybe we can give you some advice that'll work better because we know of something/someone that's at least sort of near you. And when said new member doesn't fill it out -- well, I've been known to enter something for you, hoping that youll see it and figure out that unless you like telling everyone that you live in, for instance, Purple Pudenda, Pennsylvania -- you'll fix it with the correct information. See?
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" ...Purple Pudenda, Pennsylvania" This is down the road from Blue Ball, isn't it Jon? :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Probably "UP" the road from Intercourse, Pa.
Ron
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Naw -- Blue Ball is in Belarus. You're probably thinking of Oval Orifice, Ohio.
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On our lakester we attached the belly pan with long Dzus fasteners.
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For what it is worth, I'm a metal fabricator, and I don't believe a pop rivet should secure the belly pan. Aluminum rivets don't have the strenghth to hold a panel upside down with the vibration, bumps, etc. Steel rivets will rust. If you have to drill out rivets, the hole becomes oversized.
If by chance part of the belly pan became loose during a run and drops down on to the salt, the results will not be good.
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The rivits would be in shear, not from the bottom, but thanks for the thought.
Sorry about the profile, I thought I had filled all the info in. I live in Virginia.
Thanks to all who responded, I thiink I will drill drain holes where as big as I think neccassary, carry a drill if the tech guys don't think I have enough holes. Put my rivits in shear and do a few removable inspection plates.
Our first year at tech took a long time, our repeat visits have been a breeze and many good comments on the construction, I see no reason we can't do this again.
Thanks again for the help!
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For what it is worth, I'm a metal fabricator, and I don't believe a pop rivet should secure the belly pan. Aluminum rivets don't have the strenghth to hold a panel upside down with the vibration, bumps, etc. Steel rivets will rust. If you have to drill out rivets, the hole becomes oversized.
If by chance part of the belly pan became loose during a run and drops down on to the salt, the results will not be good.
I think Keith Turk & Dave Freiburger had that happen to the HRM Camaro a few years back. The detach pan scooped up salt on the return road.
Seriously... using "Pop" rivets is a subject unto itself. The usual hardware store pop rivet has either a steel or aluminum body with a steel or aluminum stem. Their strength is low and the quality control is nil. They were never designed for structural applications but, if applied properly, can be used for non-critical applications. BTW, "Pop" rivets was (is?) a trademark of the Marston Corp.
Really good blind rivets are made by Cherry, Huck, Allfast, and a few others; Cherrylock or Lockbolt types are rated for structural use and they retain the broken stem under vibration so their shear strength is high. These types are available in a bewildering variety of materials and sizes. The highest strength materials are ones made of the super alloy A286 or a cupro-nickel alloy, Monel. Attention must be paid to providing the proper hole size and using the correct grip range when using any type of rivet.
You are right in that a couple of pop rivets won't secure a belly pan;... or much of anything else-- but aerospace blind rivets are in an altogether different league.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Aircraft rivets can be a challenge to pull with a hand tool, but with the correct tool they are great. I sure miss access to the USAF bench stock :-D
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I would thnik I would use DZUS. Both Vesco streamliners use them. Over the years I have picked up several belly pans that came loose or off and running over one at speed with your own vehicle is messy and fills the car full of salt, cuts tires and even a crash. Use plenty as you will need to remove for cleaning and maint. Don't go cheap. One year a mod sports had one made out of thin fiber glass used for roofing and it was held on with sheet metal screws that were all over the course long clean up.
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SL1000;
This air/hydraulic gun is my favorite. There is also a manual version of it.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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...I would think I would use DZUS. ..... Use plenty as you will need to remove for cleaning and maintenance...
Agreed. I realize that on the 'other car' it was mentioned going several times without removing the pan, but I have a hard time thinking there isn't salt trapped between the pan and the frame/body at places. It is one of those deals where as soon as it is all riveted on there something will come up where it would be great if it could come off.
I'd take the time to use the fasteners and be done with it. Also when if comes to the fasteners I think the only way to go now is...
(http://www.behrents.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/Panelfast/PANBF6400-T.jpg)
... with the ones that remove with the allen wrench. Just so much easier to install and take off. I love them and would never go back to the slotted ones,
Sum
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and designed, manufactured and sold by our own Roy Fjastad of Full Bore Race Products.
I had the pleasure of meeting Roy in 1997 at his shop and He showed me his machine in action. He is a smart man and a great guy to boot!
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(http://www.fullborerace.com/assets/new%20buttons%20photo%206%20in.jpg)
and designed, manufactured and sold by our own Roy Fjastad of Full Bore Race Products.
I had the pleasure of meeting Roy in 1997 at his shop and He showed me his machine in action. He is a smart man and a great guy to boot!
I bought mine from him some years back but for some reason thought they weren't shipping about a year ago but looking now...
http://www.fullborerace.com/superbutton.html
....see that they are and have only discontinued the steel ones,
Sum