Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: tauruck on February 01, 2014, 01:07:04 AM
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As you've already seen I don't make a move on my project without getting advice.
I'm a dumbass when it comes to LSR but you all keep me well informed and on the right track.
I'm going to start building an ice water tank to mount my radiator in.
My current calculations say I'll have a 29 Gallon tank.
This is based on the size of the radiator, space between the chassis rails and motor.
The motor is a twin turbo SBF.
Radiator is 24" long, 14" tall and 2" wide.
Is the tank big enough?.
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Are you building a 2 tank system or a one tank system there are a lot of advantages to a 2 tank system---several of us call them, a radiator in a box
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Are you building a 2 tank system or a one tank system there are a lot of advantages to a 2 tank system---several of us call a radiator in a box
We use the 2 tank system and is what I'll also use in the lakester. No ice water though. Is there a reason for that? Is this also planned to cool the intercoolers? On the Stude and what I'll do they are different systems and I'd keep them as such. The reason is you want the water going to the intercoolers to be at its coldest as the run progresses to be make the intercoolers as effective as possible. If the water is heated by the radiator and getting warmer it is getting warmer just when you need it colder if that makes sense.
As far as volume I think 30 gallons for the water cooling the rad. is sufficient. That is what we are using. We are building more heat with the bigger motor and the increased HP potential with the turbos but hopefully the run time down the track will be quicker so the cooling time needed will decrease. The rad-in-a-tank is much more efficient that trying to cool the water directly from a tank although it worked for us before and many others. I think you are on the right track there.
I made the intercooler ice water tank almost 30 gallons but that wasn't so much for the water volume but to have it large enough to get the bags of ice in that I think we might need. I think Speed Demon's is about 30 gallons also for the intercooler water.
I made a spreadsheet to help figure how much ice is needed for the ice water tank for the intercooler....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html)
... but use it with caution as I've had no real life feedback to see if it is applicable to real life situations but it does give some ideas of how much ice is needed in theory. We haven't run the car ourselves hard enough to see. We were seeing manifold temps at 100 deg with 250 deg. air after the compressor and we only put in a couple bags for those runs so didn't really pack the cooler at this point it was mostly just cold water and not a lot of it.
Also here is a link....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/rad-heat-shields-22.jpg)
... to the build on the rad-in-a-tank.....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20hooley-construction-2013-13.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20hooley-construction-2013-13.html)
and ....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/Ice-Water-Tank-86.jpg)
....another to the construction of the ice water tank for the intercoolers.....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20hooley-construction-2013-24.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20hooley-construction-2013-24.html)
Provide drain and pump options and make it easy to dump ice into. We carry about 30 gallons of water in 5 gallon buckets with the snap on lids in the push vehicle and have the 30 gallon tank in the car full. Then we add ice and water (from the buckets) to the ice water tank for the run. After the run we can drain some water out of the main tank into the buckets to cool down and replace that water with the water from the ice water tank where the ice has now melted. We have a portable $30 pump and garden hose to do the transfer.
Next run we repeat the cycle letting some of the water cool in the buckets,
Sum
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Sum and Sparky, I couldn't ask for more.
Thanks.
I'm putting the radiator in the tank and I've got some nice fittings for filling and draining.
I'll build this one first and get to the intercooler deal later.
I'll go with your advice. :cheers:
I got my Gates silicon hoses today. I thought they'd be the standard black OEM type but these are classy.
We'll cut, mix and match where we need to.
Thanks Neville Whitehead. 8-)
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....I'm putting the radiator in the tank and I've got some nice fittings for filling and draining....
Is there a reason you are putting the rad in the same tank as all the water? As you preheat the motor you will also start pre-heating that water. Are you going to have a way to keep the water moving in that tank? One added advantage to having them separate is packaging.
In the Stude the rad-in-a-tank can...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/rad-in-box-76.jpg)
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20hooley-construction-2013-19.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20hooley-construction-2013-19.html)
....sit next to the motor where it is a short distance to the engine for the rad hoses and fit in the narrow space there. I wouldn't of had room there for the 30 gallons of water and the radiator. The main tank can be someplace else where it might help traction or package better.
In the lakester I'll have the rad-in-a-tank sit crosswise in the car just ahead of the engine and it will only have to be about 4 1/2 to 5 inches thick since I just need an inch or so of tank on each side of the radiator. My water that I'll circulate through it will come from the....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-3/3-7-8-19%20W%20Tanks.jpg)
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-3/construction%20page-104.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-3/construction%20page-104.html)
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/12-30-07-t12.jpg)
...tanks in the side pods (about 30 gallons total with 2 more of these tanks on the other side of the car). The rad-in-a-tank won't add much to the total length of the car being less than 5 inches thick. There again if I put a 30 gallon tank there with a rad. in it the car would of had to been lengthened more,
Sum
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Mickey, If at all possible we are suggesting building your radiator in a box with a 2 pass radiator and a reverse 2 pass on the cooling water Both of our builds have fairly detailed picts. on how and if I remember both tell the how and why of the filling and draining of the box the radiator is in. they are sealed reverse flow heat exchangers
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Remember that the system must be sealed from the driver's compartment and I think they want a pop off valve on the tank. Better check the new rule book.
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Remember that the system must be sealed from the driver's compartment ....
Are you talking about any cooling tank or just if it is pressurized? Our main water tank has been in the car where a passenger would sit.
...and I think they want a pop off valve on the tank. ...
If that was required wouldn't the radiator cap do that?
I can't find anything in the 2013 rule book. Know which section?
Sum
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Remember- This info is coming from the trash man! If you blow a motor it can put a lot of pressure in the system at one time. I think some guys are using a water heater overflow valve. Maybe an expert could add his 00.02!
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As you've already seen I don't make a move on my project without getting advice.
I'm a dumbass when it comes to LSR but you all keep me well informed and on the right track.
I'm going to start building an ice water tank to mount my radiator in.
My current calculations say I'll have a 29 Gallon tank.
This is based on the size of the radiator, space between the chassis rails and motor.
The motor is a twin turbo SBF.
Radiator is 24" long, 14" tall and 2" wide.
Is the tank big enough?.
Uh...You sure of the decimal point? 24'' x14'' x2''=672cu in''. Google how many cubic inch in gallon = 231. 672 divided 231=2.9 gal
Don't remember exact size of water take on 222 car but its around 28 gal and never over heats at Bville but can on dyno.
JL222
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... Uh...You sure of the decimal point? 24'' x14'' x2''=672cu in''. Google how many cubic inch in gallon = 231. 672 divided 231=2.9 gal
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John I think that was just the size of the radiator that will be in the tank, not the tank itself,
Sum
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That's the size of the radiator.
I'm putting the tank behind the cage and in front of the motor.
That's where I have the space.
Originally we were going to put the tank ahead of the front suspension and run the pipes through the sides of the carbon tub box sections but since we've changed to tandem steer that's all gone.
I've got no experience whatsoever with the tank systems so you need to explain in simple terms what I need.
Do I need the radiator for engine cooling in one tank and then route the hoses to another tank full of ice water and then back to the motor?.
Thanks.
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That's the size of the radiator.
I'm putting the tank behind the cage and in front of the motor.
That's where I have the space.
Originally we were going to put the tank ahead of the front suspension and run the pipes through the sides of the carbon tub box sections but since we've changed to tandem steer that's all gone.
I've got no experience whatsoever with the tank systems so you need to explain in simple terms what I need.
Do I need the radiator for engine cooling in one tank and then route the hoses to another tank full of ice water and then back to the motor?.
Thanks.
If you boxed the radiator in like I did, see the links above, then that box/radiator would only take up an area about 5 X 14 X 24 in front of the motor behind the cage if that would help (helps me on my lakester). Then the 20-30 gallon tank or tanks could be mounted where they would fit best or balance the car the best. Just one way to do it. With the radiator out of the main tank you can preheat the motor with the water in the block and radiator and then turn the pump on to the main tank when you run and that water won't be pre-heated.
Still not sure why you want ice water in this system as I don't see it being needed unless you were making the main tank smaller. Ice water for the turbo's intercoolers yes but for the engine cooling I'm not so sure,
Sum
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Thanks Sum, You just cleared it up.
I understand now.
I'll show you the progress as I go.
You put a lot in to trying to help and thanks for your patience. I really appreciate It.
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Plan for tank expansion or rupture the day a turbo engine torches through a head. Our steel tank expanded out between frame and cage support tubes.
Everything that goes wrong in the engine or the intake plenum...winds up in the tanks. I have thrown away more than one tank, believe me! Even my simple little un-blown pushrod motorcycle has barfed in its tank.
I am getting quicker at making replacement tanks, however.....progress of a sort. :roll:
JimL
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Thanks Jim, Would you suggest a blast panel like on the funny cars?.
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I dont know. I just know the trouble I've had first hand. Currently, I have an external radiator on my tank, faced away from me, so that it could fail first and give me visible warning of trouble. My tank is stainless steel and much stronger than the radiator.
I dont actually use the radiator, except as a "component in position" to be sure my water tank is not considered streamlining, during "open" class runs.
I should tell you, when the turbo car torched through and expanded the water tank, I found the timing belt back-side rubber (where the water pump ran) melted onto the water pump pulley. The water pump was not seized or damaged, but I think the engine was blowing water out every way it could and stopped or reverse spun that water pump.
It was such a violent steam event that it melted through the timing cover and cut the back seal out of the timing belt idler pulley, like a water jet would. There was no sign of smoke damage outside the engine, just things cut and melted.
I dont cotton to putting jet engines on the intake side of my engines, these days.
Anyway, my opinion is that whatever you use will be subject to saltwater no matter how careful everyone is. It will get oil in it, and fuel, and scale, and more surprises. I just make them simple and throw them away when I find trouble.
Regards, JimL
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Just a leaky head gasket will spilt a radiator tank been there done that twice.
Richard 2
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one time I forgot to turn on the water pump from the remote tank to the radiator in the box and the steam from the return line was so "active" that it over powered the vent line of the remote tank and ballooned it. I now have two return lines and 2 vent lines. We also put the water pump switch as part of the closing the canopy procedure. Now that it is no longer left to the "cockpit monkey" we haven't forgotten it again!
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Thanks guys, this is an eye opener.
The learning curve continues.
It's a good thing I asked what I perceived to be a dumb question.
I got way more info than I thought. :cheers:
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There has been a time or two where we have forgotten to turn the pump on. Does lead to ....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/hooley/2007-20.jpg)
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/hooley/hooley-2007-Story.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/hooley/hooley-2007-Story.html)
...some work as a result :cry:. We were going to put a second switch on the transmission linkage so that on the 1-2 shift the pump would for sure be activated if it hadn't been already. Of course we said we would do that in 2007 and still haven't done it. I'll do it on the lakester or at least say so right now :-).
Another tip that we haven't followed but should after having this situation is to consider turning the motor over by hand first each day. Then if you for some reason have water down a cylinder it won't hydraulic the motor. That happened once also, more :cry: :cry: :cry:,
Sum
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Torched thru the head once '' tried to use a threaded sparkplug insert after stripping threads'' blew off water hoses, split seams in water tank and steamed up windows at 260mph. pulled both chutes and slammed on brakes. Patrol says, you sure stopped fast, yeah I couldn't see :-D
JL222
PS. That's why I like 4 wheel brakes.
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I am considering putting a radiator size hose that I can have some kind of "burst panel" or or a radiator cap that has a spring that is slightly above the pressure that the circulation pump can generate.