Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: hotrodderhaag on January 31, 2014, 02:06:41 PM
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guys,
i just purchased a 300 gal belly tank,
i want to see if a few guys can help me out. i know someone has this size tank already layed out in autocad or solid works. i want to see of you can help me out by providing that for me? i would even purchase it. i have the soft ware to use it, i have a high def cnc plasma table among many other fab tools and equipment. this would help me get started on my tank by finishing it all off on the computer before the actual build..
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Ben like I said in you new guy post look up Andy Welker, and I think he is in your area too
He has a build log here and a website on the tank
G Don
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He shot me down a whole back. Said he cannot give away countless hours if design work.
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Look at it this way,
I doubt that your tank and my tank are the same dimensions, well, 300 gal sized.
I did a ton of pre build stuff in Acad and SW and I spent numerous hours trying to find models of motors, trans, rearends etc.
I did not find anything close enough to trust and wasted tons of time.
So, I ended up modeling what I needed, and went from there.
Here is an example of what went into the mill and a snapshot of the tank.
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Think like a Hot Rodder, floor space & chalk lines. :mrgreen:
Sid.
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I'm using the same tank as OLD CROW .. I've researched it some. P-38 tank?
I'm new to this so take I easy fellas .
Floor space and chalk lines do not help you lay out 15 gals of shit in a 5 gal bucket
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Maybe they used crayons 70 years ago. It's a mystery.
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Mickey Thompson,s Challenger I was laid out in chalk on his shop floor.
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Maybe they used crayons 70 years ago. It's a mystery.
70 years ago they didn't have a quarter of the scta rules making more and more things needs.
Don't worry about it guys, thanks anyways
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I'm using the same tank as OLD CROW .. I've researched it some. P-38 tank?
I'm new to this so take I easy fellas .
Floor space and chalk lines do not help you lay out 15 gals of Subaru in a 5 gal bucket
I pretty much share anything I know, but respect those who don't choose to go that route. It is everyone's option. I don't expect others to share with me, but appreciate it when they do.
If you didn't read this thread....
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,13426.msg242730.html#msg242730 (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,13426.msg242730.html#msg242730)
...I'd do so as it would help you. Make a build table and start using it. Much easier and faster than working on the floor in my opinion. There are lots of lakester builds out there which can be of use even if they don't us the same tank that you are for the body.
Good luck and keep asking questions here and post what you are doing so others can learn from that,
Sum
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The learning curve is half the fun.
Go it alone and you'll still get help here from the guys. :cheers:
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I'm building my car with an idea of what I want in my head and making it with as small a frontal area as possible and then making the body to fit. You are kind of going about it from 180 degrees to my situation. You have the body and the car has to fit inside it or a lengthened version of it.
If I was going that route I might make my wood build table and then make female cross-sections of the car every foot or so out of plywood. The cross-sections would be female cross sections that the body could fit inside of. I'd cut them in half where the tanks parting line is. Then I would attach the bottom sections to the build table at the 1 foot intervals. Then start making the frame and such to fit inside of them. You could at any time put the top half of the 'female' cross-section on to check fit for anything above the parting line.
This way you could locate and support components easily and quickly off the build table between the cross-sections before welding or bolting them into place. Hope this makes some sense,
Sum
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We built a rough frame out of 2X2for our lakester build and found out a lot without cutting and welding a thing. Found out a lot more once we started cutting and welding.
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We built a rough frame out of 2X2for our lakester build and found out a lot without cutting and welding a thing. Found out a lot more once we started cutting and welding.
Exactly :cheers:,.....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/cage-metal-2.jpg)
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/construction%20page-37.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/construction%20page-37.html)
... wood is cheaper than steel to make mistakes with :-)
Sum
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I'm using the same tank as OLD CROW .. I've researched it some. P-38 tank?
I'm new to this so take I easy fellas .
Floor space and chalk lines do not help you lay out 15 gals of Subaru in a 5 gal bucket
Floor space & chalk lines have produced my belly tank & my 4WD AA/BFS & as you see many other's.
Just take your pile of parts & lay them out on the floor & draw up a chassis to carry all the stuff inside your tank size.
A tank is an awkard build due to the fact you are building within an existing envelope. Those that have been there have a healthy respect toward other's who have also.
A mockup on the floor is by far the right way to start.
Sid.
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We built a rough frame out of 2X2for our lakester build and found out a lot without cutting and welding a thing. Found out a lot more once we started cutting and welding.
Isn't a 2"x2" piece of lumber actually quite a bit smaller than that? If it was the same size it would make cutting the tube end angles a lot easier-- & cheaper to generate scrap if it's wrong.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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We built a rough frame out of 2X2for our lakester build and found out a lot without cutting and welding a thing. Found out a lot more once we started cutting and welding.
Isn't a 2"x2" piece of lumber actually quite a bit smaller than that? If it was the same size it would make cutting the tube end angles a lot easier-- & cheaper to generate scrap if it's wrong.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
You are right that a 2 X 2 is 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 most places,so you will be compensating for that or rip some wider 2 by something so you end up with 2 X 1 1/2 and put the smaller dimension where it isn't as critical.
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/cage-metal-2.jpg)
Even using the 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 just place them so the outside is where you want the outside of the final frame. I'm not saying you can't build on the floor and on metal tables but I am saying I'll bet this is faster and easier to locate and hold things in place for welding and fitting for a one off project built by a home builder :-),
Sum
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1 5/8" diameter PVC pipe comes in really handy. I also used it to cope the joints and transferred the cuts to mild steel. It cuts much easier and is inexpensive. Wayno
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Hey Haag, we are lo lo tech,but our tank was built in 3d cad.
As Sid said this process will give you a healthy respect for the process,it is a journey that others can point you along,but you have to walk it. Ultimately you have to make the choices and quite often they are choosing between all the conflicting advice. All tanks are different,unlike roadsters :-D....these smartasses here are the best friends you'll have in this process, less experienced friends will encourage you in all the wrong directions,these guys will tap and trip you at every turn, when you're done it will be your build and you'll know every single nuance of it.
Send a PM to Reverend Hedgash and talk to him about what we did, ultimately though you need to choose your fundamentals,measure them and work out how you're going to fit your 15lbs of shite into your 10lb bag, watching eagerly here. :cheers:
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Hey Haag, we are lo lo tech,but our tank was built in 3d cad.
As Sid said this process will give you a healthy respect for the process,it is a journey that others can point you along,but you have to walk it. Ultimately you have to make the choices and quite often they are choosing between all the conflicting advice. All tanks are different,unlike roadsters :-D....these smartasses here are the best friends you'll have in this process, less experienced friends will encourage you in all the wrong directions,these guys will tap and trip you at every turn, when you're done it will be your build and you'll know every single nuance of it.
Send a PM to Reverend Hedgash and talk to him about what we did, ultimately though you need to choose your fundamentals,measure them and work out how you're going to fit your 15lbs of shite into your 10lb bag, watching eagerly here. :cheers:
Thank you. Appreciate it. Much better than a a
Smart ass remark.
Thanks again
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1 5/8" diameter PVC pipe comes in really handy. I also used it to cope the joints and transferred the cuts to mild steel. It cuts much easier and is inexpensive. Wayno
I'm a plumber. That thought has crossed my mind.
I also like Sumner's idea about female cross-sections of the body. Sounds like a big help in getting everything to fit inside the body.
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I'm using the same tank as OLD CROW .. I've researched it some. P-38 tank?
I'm new to this so take I easy fellas .
Floor space and chalk lines do not help you lay out 15 gals of Subaru in a 5 gal bucket
Floor space & chalk lines have produced my belly tank & my 4WD AA/BFS & as you see many other's.
Just take your pile of parts & lay them out on the floor & draw up a chassis to carry all the stuff inside your tank size.
A tank is an awkard build due to the fact you are building within an existing envelope. Those that have been there have a healthy respect toward other's who have also.
A mockup on the floor is by far the right way to start.
Sid.
I used Sid's advice for my car and I'm glad I did. :cheers:
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Sid is so spot on, There is a lot to be said for taking a bare block, trans housing, rear end and some pvc, 2x4s plywood and start trying to put you and all of your supporting characters tanks and such -- do not forget race pans and valve covers which are usually taller or deeper..
Next I suggest having the tank along side you pile of parts cut you some round bulk heads the same dia. of where you are going to cut the tank---this part will be the constant dia. Place the bulk heads where they will be in your pile and see if a straight edge will clear the parts( this will take time and lots of more time to get them to clear---you may be amazed at how much longer you may have to make the insert depending on you choice of parts--
Now block the axles and tank up to their race height so you can play with the tapers---it will take a lot of time.
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I thought I could pack until I looked at a Belly Tank Lakester.
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I thought I could pack until I looked at a Belly Tank Lakester.
I knew I couldn't, so didn't try :-),
Sum
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I thought I could pack until I looked at a Belly Tank Lakester.
:cheers:
Sid.
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thats what i will end up doing. my original thought on the autocad was to lay out the tank dimensions and the shape of it. that way when i call my local fab shop for the rolled tubes to build the cage out of, they can referance that...
i work in a dust collection manufacturing and fabrication shop. we have any type of fab tool imaginable accept a tubing roller! imagine that!
so as far as fabing up the car, that shouldnt be to big of a task, i also have 2 local guys heping me with the chassis and cage. they are NHRA top fuelly guys and both of them have been around this stuff a long time. so when it comes to the design of the cage, the tig weldes. thats all them. they are going to guide me in that direction.
as far as making everything fit, i have been reading several build threads and have gathered hundreds of photos and great ideas from guys.
im new the lakes racing part. i build hot rods as my name may show.. my driver is a McCulloch supercharged flathead model a ford, i also have a 34 ford lakes style car.
so the general gist of buiding a car is easy.
i appreciate all the help guys. once i get started ill be putting alot of photos up. thanks for all the guidance so far! :mrgreen:
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question given the CAD questions above -- what are the diameter cross section widths (and slice distances taken) and overall length of a P38 and other fuel tanks that have been used over the years? (someone posted but I can't find it after dozens of searches on this forum) Thus one could quickly CAD a fuel tank shape for simulation modeling. Also what is the CD "real world measured" for a P38 fuel tank by itself? (not assembled lakester)
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That was a fast answer! (thanks)
P38 fuel tank:
Length = 12ft 6in
Max Diameter = 36in
Spacing at 1ft intervals creates:
Section # -- Diameter(inches)
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0 -- 0.0
1 -- 18.5
2 -- 25.5
3 -- 31.0
4 -- 34.5
5 -- 35.5
6 -- 35.5
7 -- 34.0
8 -- 30.5
9 -- 25.0
10 -- 18.0
11 -- 12.5
12 -- 7.5
12.5 -- 0.0
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That's all I need to know. Awesome
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Superleggera, that is great info and I would think that anyone with some Solid Works experience could make that into a shape. Check out the NACA 66 Special A/GBS build in the Build Diaries section. Rob did most of the design using Solid Works. I think the car speaks for itself as to the power of this program. Regretfully I am still stuck in the "pencil CAD" aria so mock ups and chalk lines are my approach.
Rex
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I think can see where your mind is here, build a chassis structure to fit the inside contour of the tank & then load it with the driver & all the garbage.
You might want to consider looking at it from a different angle as in design the chassis & cage around the driver & power package & then come off that with body supports. It makes for a much simpler build rather than trying to fit the inside shape of the egg.
Sid.
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Sorry, I couldn't resist! Cd is 0.046 in free air all by itself. :cheers:
Add wings, wheels, lumps & bumps or the ground and it all changes! And that's what you pays me for! :-D
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That's pretty cool Woody.
Could you whip me up a front wheel drive Streamliner?
Just kidding Richard 2
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I think can see where your mind is here, build a chassis structure to fit the inside contour of the tank & then load it with the driver & all the garbage.
You might want to consider looking at it from a different angle as in design the chassis & cage around the driver & power package & then come off that with body supports. It makes for a much simpler build rather than trying to fit the inside shape of the egg.
Sid.
sid,
yea that was my plan. it may be backwards. but i had a few ideas from looking at over a dozen tank builds on several websites.
see on hte "blonde Bitch" tank of mr. welkers. he used a fabricated c channel frame. whiich was also my intent. i like that design and that would allow me to make it the same shape as the tank and make all the mounting brackets easer for me... but thats just for ME...
all i needed was the autocad of solidworks models of just the tank shell. hell i can draw the components.
but i see measurments have been posted. ill have to see what that looks like
ben
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I wish we had planed to stand the body away from the chassis structure a bit. It would have made it a lot easier to run wiring, plumbing, and cables in some places now that we are in that phase as well as easing maintenance in the future. Also would have helped in the protection of vitals where they pass by the flywheel/flexplate area.
Ed
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The posted tank dimensions sound correct for a P-38 tank, but these are typically referred to as a 315 gallon tank. The aluminum originals bolted together at the seam line.
Ben, you said you have a 300 gal tank like the Old Crow tank. These were a Navy Mark 8 standard tank, sometimes referred to as Hellcat tank, but mostly used on a Navy Albatross seaplane. These tanks are around 30" diameter at the widest point, not counting the flange, 13'6" long, and the two halves are welded together. This is what my tanks were, attached are some pics of the original decals. These tanks have a much different shape than the P-38, longer, skinnier, and a less pointy tail.
There are at least two other tank sizes with the same basic shape, one much smaller at 24" dia. and around 11' long, another at 32" dia. and about 14'6" long. I would suggest cutting open the tank you got and taking some actual measurements to verify what you have. Even my cad model of the tank is only approximate, any given cross section of the tank in my model is round, in reality it is an oval. Because of this my cad was only a starting point and final fitting of components often required a combination of test fits, mirrors, and checking clearance with a piece of 1/8" tig wire.
If you can verify your tank is the same as mine i will share the dimensions, but knowing there were numerous versions I would highly suggest double checking your actual tank before moving forward.
And yes, it can all be fit inside the standard length tank, it is challenging and can be a pain to work on.
Andy
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awelker,
my tank has the exact same sticker on the side as yours does. if i could figure out how to load pics i could show you.
my tank was bought from a friend. it still hanging in his rafters of his garage. ill dig it out in the spring time. im in no hurry.
the reason i wanted to tank dimensions was so that in my spare time i could mess around with designing the chassis and layin out the parts i already have into a drawing, (motor, trans, front and rear ends) ... i appreciate your input. your tank is amazing. ive been reading everything i can on it.. im not really familiar with all the tanks. im a car guy that is getting into the tank part.. ive built a few hot rods but never a tank. im no pro at autocad or solidworks. my engineer at work is realling helping me out with how to use solid works. i used cad every day for work.
i appreciate the help, if you want to send anything, my email is fordsledpuller1@gmail.com
thank you.
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I will email you some info on the tank shape. So the way this sounds are you planning on racing? I think initially you had indicated you were not.
If so order yourself an SCTA rulebook, read it as many times as possible, and remember these are all just minimum requirements.
The square channel frame worked well for me, wasted some space, but gave good mounting points for accessories.
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Dear Hotrodderhaag,
Your shift key is not working.
Stan
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I will email you some info on the tank shape. So the way this sounds are you planning on racing? I think initially you had indicated you were not.
If so order yourself an SCTA rulebook, read it as many times as possible, and remember these are all just minimum requirements.
The square channel frame worked well for me, wasted some space, but gave good mounting points for accessories.
i ordered the rule book friday. thats the first step.. i want to race it. i dont know shit aobut the classes. i dont want a full blown modern race car, as odd and backwards as as that souonds... so i have to read up on rules and requirements.
i first wanted a vintage style tank like they raced back in the day. but i was told there is no way in hell they allow those on the salt anymore.
im not worried about records. i just want to go have fun with it.. of course i say that now....
im going to read the rule book, and figure out classed, then i will start my plan on what i want and how i want it. so im not doing things incorrecly or chaniging my mind half wa through,
all i know right now id that i finally got a tank.. ive been looking for a while and i finally got one pried out of my good friends fingers.!
andy,
i appreciate your help, big time
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Dear Hotrodderhaag,
Your shift key is not working.
Stan
?? my shift key
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I agree with Mr. Back -- I see no capitals in your posts.
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I agree with Mr. Back -- I see no capitals in your posts.
Is that seriously an issue around here?
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Thanks Woody for posting! I already did the same myself though once I was e-mailed the data! Always interesting to look at differing shapes and profiles as a learning curve for a lakester project getting started as I finish a MPS-650 motorcycle project for 2014. As you mentioned, a fuel tank shape is good but all the bitsa/wings/lumps around it can drastically change the final results quickly! (plus the weight / size packaging of components within does interesting things as well...)
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I agree with Mr. Back -- I see no capitals in your posts.
Is that seriously an issue around here?
Don't worry about it. They're just a couple of prissy Apple people. :evil:
Mike
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I was gonna say, I thought this was a bonneville page not grammar school!
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Howdy. I'm Jon, one of the guys that hassled you for not using the shift key. To your comment about this being for racing and not a grammar school I'll simply point out that the better your grammar - spelling, punctuation, and even capitalization -- the easier it is for one and all to know what you're trying to say. We'd like to be able to understand you on the first try. :-D
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I will email you some info on the tank shape. So the way this sounds are you planning on racing? I think initially you had indicated you were not.
If so order yourself an SCTA rulebook, read it as many times as possible, and remember these are all just minimum requirements.
The square channel frame worked well for me, wasted some space, but gave good mounting points for accessories.
Now that is a seriously nice piece of workmanship!
Sid.
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awelker: nice "naked" view of your lakester- looks fantastic!
How much clearance between the inboard "moon discs" and the front rims? Any front brakes in there?
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awelker: nice "naked" view of your lakester- looks fantastic!
How much clearance between the inboard "moon discs" and the front rims? Any front brakes in there?
Yep , what he said
Moving on
When we built the Spirit of Sunshine, we had a Cad drawing courtesy of Reverend Headgash.
It made some of the stuff easy, however there was still a lot of trail and error with making stuff fit
we still have issues, like when we change the diff ratio, we have to take the engine and gearbox out to do it
It will all fit, eventually
Read the rule book, then read it again, then read it again, then read it some more
Then when you finally get your liner to tech, some one will point out what you missed.
I do tech inspection at two different meetings on two different sides of the planet, and I still miss some stuff on our tank
The guys on the forum will be some of the most helpful you can meet, especially ant 1;30 in the morning when you can't sleep
because you have been staring at something all day wondering how the gosh darned heck (Utah speak) you are going to make that thing work. Some one in Australia, England, New Zealand, Sweden, Denmark, or Tonapah will have an answer that make sense that will involve a part you can buy from a local salvage yard for $5.00
Yep, some of us will make smart ass comments, and some will not share, but most will help and give advice, some good some not so good
run a build diary here, it's worth while.
And if you have a few days spare, take a look at our build dairy, http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,862.0.html
It goes for a few pages.....
We were told by another tank crew, you will never make that thing do 200
but we have managed to drag 215mph out of a wing tip tank with a 3.8 Liter V6 that only makes a few horsepower
Anyhow, enough of this
G
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awelker: nice "naked" view of your lakester- looks fantastic!
How much clearance between the inboard "moon discs" and the front rims? Any front brakes in there?
Thanks, I have about 1/8" to 3/16" clearance from the inboard discs to the rims, both front and rear. No front brakes although it would be possible to fit a small disc brake.
One of the nicest things the cad layout did for me was help in bending the roll cage. From my cad drawing I created full size bending patterns with angles and straight lengths between bends. Saved a lot of scrap although I still made my fair share in just plain screwing up the bends.
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"i first wanted a vintage style tank like they raced back in the day. but i was told there is no way in hell they allow those on the salt anymore."
There are plenty of belly tanks competing on the salt. First thing I would do is to find a new consultant.
DW
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Yep, there are plenty of tanks on the salt, both here in AUS and in the US
And Elmo Rodge has bodies available and curved frame rails for anyone who wants to build a P38 style tank
So what Dan said, get a new consultant.
As long as it complies with the rules, and you pay your fees, you can run it somewhere
G
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I made a wood mockup before I started bending tubing
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I believe when he mentioned "like they raced back in the day" he was referring to the original batch of bellytanks without roll cage and current safety devices.
Steve, I never got to see your "wooden cage".
When it came to bending and fitting tubing joints my biggest helper was the angle brackets and hose clamps. Cage could be disassembled and assembled as many times as desired, beats tack welds when things are still evolving.
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Very nice Awelker
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I'm sorry guys for not being clear. Awelker you are correct on what I was originally wanting to do. Maybe this site is not the place for that? I first wanted to build a vintage tank that I could race on the salt as a hobby. I was not worried about records or trophies. I wanted to experience what salt flat racing was like in a belly tank back in 1950. I apologize If I was misleading. I asked a fire friends if they let you do that sort of thing on the salt and they thought you couldn't but they were not sure. I was awaiting my rule book before I made any decisions .
I asked about tank dimensions. I wanted this so I could just play around with ideas that would be close . I want to design and build my own tank. So I didn't mean to come off as I wanted someone's entire design. I just wanted the tank shape itself really.
I appreciate all the discussion going on. I enjoy reading
Thank you
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hrhaag,
if you want to race your belly tank on the salt without the current safety equipment you can do that anytime there is not a sanctioned meet in progress... there are no gates on the road and no one will stop you unless there just happens to be a BLM ranger out there... and then it is unlikely he would keep you from driving around, but you won't get a timing slip to tell you how fast you went.
There are a lot of tanks on the salt that challenge records and some that are just having fun racing on the salt setting personal bests with something they created. The safety equipment will crowd up the inside, likely causing you to stretch it a bit.
There was a cool streetable tank out there a couple of years ago, build one of those and the 130 club might let you run it during WoS, contact the USFRA.
Unfortunately, if you want to race a 50's style tank you will have to meet the current safety specs... because there are 1000 times more lawyers than there were in the 50's. Those of us that race understand that not only do the standards protect us from our own stupidity, they protect our ability to race regardless of
the stupidity of others....
:cheers:
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Yes I don't want to do anything to jeopardize the right to go out there and play around. I'll read deep into the rule book and see what I come up with. I'm totally new on this so it's a walk in the dark
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Fellas
One other thing to add. I work at a fab shop... So materials, welding supplies and the machinery is basically free.. That frees up a lot of $$ for this project.. I have basically a donar drivetrain already, 59a flathead, 37 3 speed trans, 1940 banjo rear, model a ford front axle , I have. 4 wheels and tires . All I need to do is fit if all in.
Also where I work we build industrial dust collection systems. We install numerous fire suppression systems... So literally we has fire suppression tanks, lines, and fittings on the shelves. This system is also at my fingertips.
That will make this build easier. I'm not expecting it to happen over 6 months like some of the hot rods we do. I'm prepared to take a few years to do this.
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Take a look around. Some of the tanks with canopies that hide the roll cage are close replicas of the 50's. And safe. And you've got a leg up on some of the other equipment. I'd think having the rest of the safety stuff would be easy. Front Runner tires are not that expensive and they don't look that modern. You could be safe and join the fun of the regular meets at the same time. And, should you want to part with it, it would be more salable. Rule book, rule book, rule book some more. Good luck!
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Take a look around. Some of the tanks with canopies that hide the roll cage are close replicas of the 50's. And safe. And you've got a leg up on some of the other equipment. I'd think having the rest of the safety stuff would be easy. Front Runner tires are not that expensive and they don't look that modern. You could be safe and join the fun of the regular meets at the same time. And, should you want to part with it, it would be more salable. Rule book, rule book, rule book some more. Good luck!
Thank you stan. That's a great point.
The rule book will be fallowing me around places for a few weeks so I can really get the feel for the regulations
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hrhaag,
There was a cool streetable tank out there a couple of years ago, build one of those and the 130 club might let you run it during WoS, contact the USFRA.
Unfortunately, if you want to race a 50's style tank you will have to meet the current safety specs... because there are 1000 times more lawyers than there were in the 50's. Those of us that race understand that not only do the standards protect us from our own stupidity, they protect our ability to race regardless of
the stupidity of others....
:cheers:
Stainless,
I think you are talking about this one.....
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There are merits to starting with a nice strong frame that meets the safety rules and also has room for different motors, blowers, etc. This way, a racer does not need to toss out what they have done if their interest gets serious, if they want to run in different classes, or if they get fat and stiff. All of these will likely happen.
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Yes Bo, but contingency does have a certain predictable, mundane aspect to it.
Bellytankers are for one thing, when you don't fit you can look back with fondness at when you did. :evil:
What you are talking about is the BMW 3 series.
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Okay, I'll be the one foolish enough to ask... what that forwardmost piece is on the 'street' lakester... :?
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Okay, I'll be the one foolish enough to ask... what that forwardmost piece is on the 'street' lakester... :?
airspeed?
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Silly, that's the nipple for feeding!
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Air-to-air refueling?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ