Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: robfrey on December 07, 2013, 06:33:01 PM
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I was just wondering. Has anybody done the math on the feasibility on building a LSR specific track some where in the corn fields of Nebraska or Iowa. I'm thinking 8 miles of asphalt lined with grass at the same level as the asphalt. It would need to splay out on both sides in a V pattern to give added run off room as speeds increased. Corn stalks may make an excellent soft wall if someone really got off course and would dissipate energy nicely.
Advantages-
1) much less course prep (will need to cut grass or harvest wheat before an event).
2) higher traction, more consistent racing surface.
3) much less weather dependent.
4) bigger racing season
5) more central location for USA racers.
6) less corrosion on everything
Disadvantages-
1) high initial cost
2) will need different tires developed for the faster classes.
3) further tow for the west coast crowd and roots if our sport
As the salt continues to deteriorate, we may need to start looking at another plan or our sport will go by the wayside.
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Great question. I have pondered on this many, many times. In 2006 $$, the estimated rural cost of highway quality road was 3.1 -9.1 million per lane mile. That might be an obstacle.
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sounds cool . wouldnt we have to hand pick the ears of corn in order to have a wall of soft corn stalks ? that could be done , i guess. speed week at the dent flats ?
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With Pavement how are you going to keep it flat enough for 8 miles, dealing with the cold temps in the winter that buckles roads?
Maybe a little farther south with a more mild climate
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It is a great idea. To build 4 courses would be $$$$$$$$$$$$.
But................
For that kind of money why not buy Intrepid's Wendover division instead. They you can control everything and not have to reinvent the wheel.
It is OK to dream isn't it.
Tom G.
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Cold weather all by itself doesn't buckle the roads, but when you add traffic all year long - then things'll go to hell in a handbasket. Make the road proper blacktop (asphalt to some of you, tarmac to others) with good subsurface preparation and you'll have a very smooth road. The buckles usually come from poor preparation that allows water to be under the pavement so it can freeze and expand -- or poor preparation that allows water to seep down between the individual slabs of concrete, which water then freezes and then expands -- making a buckled surface.
As long as the surface isn't stressed by continuous traffic it can stay pristine and have little or no buckling, little or no bumps. As long as you're spending the money to buy all that land and build a road -- spend more and do a great job of it. You might have to spend big money to build overpasses to allow cross traffic, and then you'd have to worry about how to avoid having bridge abutments, and - and - and. . so on. but it ought to be doable. Who'll offer the first $500,000 seed money? :-D
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....For that kind of money why not buy Intrepid's Wendover division instead. They you can control everything and not have to reinvent the wheel. Tom G.
I've thought about that many times. I wonder how much the place would go for. I wonder how much they are paying for their leases? Outbid them?
Driving down long straight roads in AZ I've also pondered a course in the desert? I just can't envision anyplace with a paved track and not paved sides being anywhere as safe as the salt thought. The transition could be a killer literally. Most of the time when the NASCAR guys get on the grass at highly maintained tracks at 180-195 they do well, but getting there at 200+ or 300+ or 400+, I'm not sure the survival rate would be high. Also the 10-12 miles of track needed if you ran international records and a runoff area to the sides that would have to be maintained would be a major undertaking.
One thing I have noticed on the salt is that now we can run out onto the very thin to no salt and not sink in usually as was always the case 10-15 years ago. I feel that the clay? under the salt is now actually drying out more and getting harder. I would not like to see it go there, but at some point the salt flats might become a very large El Mirage. There also are other dry lake beds in the west that are larger than El Mirage and might eventually be an option. Black Rock has been used obviously but I hear it is really littered with debris.
Hopefully it isn't too late to actually save the salt flats, but until the BLM truly gets on board that isn't going to happen. It just boils down to the fact that mining of the salt has to stop period. Mining and replenishment isn't going to get it in the long run,
Sum
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To expand/replenish the salt flats is doable, but all the salt is in the wrong places. In the not too distant future, desalination plants will be required on the west and gulf coasts. Sending the hypersaline solution via pipeline to east Wendover would be feasible, but not something you could get the public behind. A better option would be to move the course east of floating mountain and/or replenish from the GSL. Of course, shutting down Intrepid would be a bonus.
Width of paving, runoff areas are really big hurdles when considering building anew. Id there a commercial customer that might need that type of facility?
The Shuttle runway is 15,000 ft long plus 1,000 feet runoff on each end. I have no idea what it cost.
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Jon;
"...and then you'd have to worry about how to avoid having bridge abutments..."
Yes, the death of Bernd Rosemeyer (sp?) in an Auto-Union was caused by this.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I've studied this idea myself.
A good starting point would be to find an abandoned section of rail road track. Half the initial grading would be done, and it would give you a nominally flat plumb line to build out from.
What has typically happened in Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska and Illinois has been the right-of-way has been in some way put under the care of quasi-governmental partnerships with a bicycle trail organizations and snowmobilers.
What might be cool would be working with such an organization with the understanding that a section of it would be paved for LSR with alternative routing for bicyclists. The track would revert back to a really nice bike path on non race days.
The big down-side is that to be safe from deer, you would need to build out a significantly large apron from the track, at which point you'd likely be abutting farms or other private property.
Even as large as the area is around the carousel at Road America, I've seem deer nearly take out cars. So while it may appear desolate, there's a lot of wildlife in those corn fields.
Most venison in the Midwest is corn fed, and often grilled.
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The high plains are a terrible place for LSR. The wind blows nearly ALL the time, and I'm not talking breezes. Most folks on the high plains don't even consider 20MPH much of a wind, and don't complain until it's over 40. No way you can stay on the course in those winds, let alone set records.
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Strewth.....I would be light years cheaper for all of you to come down under to Lake Gairdner
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Thinner air is your friend when dealing with aero stability of a non-flying vehicle. Back when I was racing sailboards, I quickly learned that crashes at sea level come quick and hard, and the margins are much thinner. When we got caught by a gust and didnt unhook, we called it a TOAD, which stands for "Take Off And Die"!
At higher altitudes in Colorado I could carry 25-30% more sail area, and it was more forgiving on the edge, at the same wind speeds. All in all, it was a pretty good lesson about air density.
I like Bonneville just fine. :-)
JimL
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I've studied this idea myself.
A good starting point would be to find an abandoned section of rail road track. Half the initial grading would be done, and it would give you a nominally flat plumb line to build out from.
What has typically happened in Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska and Illinois has been the right-of-way has been in some way put under the care of quasi-governmental partnerships with a bicycle trail organizations and snowmobilers.
What might be cool would be working with such an organization with the understanding that a section of it would be paved for LSR with alternative routing for bicyclists. The track would revert back to a really nice bike path on non race days.
The big down-side is that to be safe from deer, you would need to build out a significantly large apron from the track, at which point you'd likely be abutting farms or other private property.
Even as large as the area is around the carousel at Road America, I've seem deer nearly take out cars. So while it may appear desolate, there's a lot of wildlife in those corn fields.
Most venison in the Midwest is corn fed, and often grilled.
I have helped on some bicycle Rails To Trails conversions. You would NEVER get it done. It is a big enough fight to get bikes crossing through folks private lands and fields let alone extremely noisy and fast cars.
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Curious how many "Wendovians" are employed by Intrepid and what the town might think about shutting down the plant?
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I believe it was posted here several years ago that you could rent the shuttle landing strip for $ 10,000/day
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The costs and obstacles are massive.
Starting with an abandoned air strip gives you a base pavement to start with. The other couple of miles on either end could be purchased.
How long do you need if it's paved? The problem of wheel spin becomes much less.
All we need is a Kickstarter crowd sourced funding for $50,000,000 :roll:
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....For that kind of money why not buy Intrepid's Wendover division instead. They you can control everything and not have to reinvent the wheel. Tom G.
I've thought about that many times. I wonder how much the place would go for. I wonder how much they are paying for their leases? Outbid them?.
Sum
Sum,
I had time to do some Goggling last night. Found a PDF that was an interesting read along with the background of the mining. I could be wrong but it looks like there are about +or- 24,000 acres of land leased to Intrepid Wendover and somewhere on the internet it said the lease price was over $200 an acre. Please don't quote me do your own research as I could be mistaken. Using these numbers the cost would be + or - $4.8 million a year just to lease the land. So that is out of the question unless someone wins the lottery and would love to donate their winnings to a good cause.
Tom G.
http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/planning/documents.Par.17457.File.dat/Intrepid%20EA.pdf
Potash extraction operations began in the early 1900’s in Tooele County near Wendover
Utah under the authority of the 1872 Mining Law. Although the Mineral Leasing Act of
1920 proclaimed that potassium and similar minerals such as sodium and magnesium were no longer locatable under the Mining Law, several thousand acres of mining claims were grandfathered and in 1929, patented into private ownership. In 1936, Bonneville Ltd. was the first company to successfully produce potash by solar
evaporation (Gywnn, p. 1-3, 1996). In April 1962 Bonneville Ltd. applied for ten potassium leases adjacent to their operations near Wendover Utah.
Ten Federal Potassium (potash) leases covering 24,699.83 acres were issued to Bonneville Ltd. on January 1, 1963 under the authority of the Mineral Leasing Act of 1920. These ten leases were assigned to Standard
Magnesium (and Chemical) Corporation on May 1, 1963. The leases were then assigned to Kaiser Aluminum and Chemical Corporation (Kaiser) on April 1, 1964. On July 1, 1988 the BLM approved the assignment of these
leases to Reilly Tar and Chemical Corporation. On December 1, 2004 the leases were assigned to
Intrepid Wendover Potash LLC
Fiscal Year 2012, activities on public lands generated $4.6 billion in revenue, much of which was shared with the States where the activities occurred. In addition, public lands contributed more than $112 billion to the U.S. economy and helped support more than 500,000 jobs.
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Whoa -- thanks, Tom. That's some in depth research (even if it's wrong :-D). Your conclusion, though - that if one of us wins a big payoff in the lottery he'd be able to lease the land and provide it for racing. I wonder what BLM would say about that -- since he (we?) would be paying a fee to BLM and NOT taking out any material/minerals. Maybe they'd give him/us a better lease rate because we wouldn't degrade the inventory of available potash. Do you think so? Would you like to write the cover letter to the BLM and I'll sign it with a few of the other racers? Thanks.
:roll: :roll:
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we need a 12 mile long evaporation pond, that we can control the salt level and drainage
off season it could be pumped with brine and on season drained as needed
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I believe it was posted here several years ago that you could rent the shuttle landing strip for $ 10,000/day
That's only 2 acres of Nebraska corn ground. Sounds cheap
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Whoa -- thanks, Tom. That's some in depth research (even if it's wrong :-D). Your conclusion, though - that if one of us wins a big payoff in the lottery he'd be able to lease the land and provide it for racing. I wonder what BLM would say about that -- since he (we?) would be paying a fee to BLM and NOT taking out any material/minerals. Maybe they'd give him/us a better lease rate because we wouldn't degrade the inventory of available potash. Do you think so? Would you like to write the cover letter to the BLM and I'll sign it with a few of the other racers? Thanks.
:roll: :roll:
From what I read the lease is good for quite some time, 10 years as I recall. The way I understand it the lease goes to the highest bidder, so if you were Bill Gates, Warren Buffet or any of the Walton clan, who have quite a few billion $$$$$$$$$$$, and were into LSR, that would be pocket change for you.
????????????????? I never said anything about better rates, or writing a letter to BLM, but you are more than welcome to if you like.
Tom G.
PS. If I get a chance I will call the BLM and find out.
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Why not just run on the South side of I-80?????? That is where the salt went.......
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Why not just run on the South side of I-80?????? That is where the salt went.......
God I wish it was that easy!
The high speed tire situation really has us committed to running on salt, anything else won't keep them cool on a seven or eight mile pass. 300 ish is doable on dirt but much beyond that will require more distance & a different tire.
Sid.
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kiwi bellie tank, you just hit on one of the factors that is frequently overlooked.
The temp of the salt is much lower than the ambient air. The water is right
at the surface and the lack of traction leads to tire life.
A long asphalt course would present an entirely different situation for tires.
Any increase in speeds would add measurably to tire temps.
Just another hurdle that would exist if the track surface was changed.
Just nuke the potash plant.
FREUD
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There is an airport is spain up for sale starting bid is 100 million dollars. Ciudad Real's Central airport has one runway and it is 13,123 ft long. Could be a long tow for some racers.
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Brand new concrete runway at Spaceport America in southern New Mexico has 10,000 ft length. Not much activity there now as far as aircraft. They need money so this might be a possibility to rent out for a few days for an event?
http://spaceportamerica.com/
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Brand new concrete runway at Spaceport America in southern New Mexico has 10,000 ft length. Not much activity there now as far as aircraft. They need money so this might be a possibility to rent out for a few days for an event?
http://spaceportamerica.com/
Wow...that's very cool. Do I see a New Mexico Mile in the future? Seems like it would be worth looking into...
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There's no return road there. Things could be a little on the slow side for a mile :roll:
Rouse
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There's no return road there. Things could be a little on the slow side for a mile :roll:
Rouse
Actually, it looks like there's a fairly well-developed network of dirt roads around the runway and the terminal--it might be a little dusty driving back to the pits or to the starting line, but I'm sure a return route could be figured out, and I can't imagine it would be too much different from what you get at El Mirage:
http://spaceportamericaconstruction.blogspot.com/2010/07/spaceport-america-runway-south-view.html
http://www.amusingplanet.com/2012/12/futuristic-looking-spaceport-america.html
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already a 1 1/2 mile in limestone maine.......long tow for a lot of people
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Whoa -- thanks, Tom. That's some in depth research (even if it's wrong :-D). Your conclusion, though - that if one of us wins a big payoff in the lottery he'd be able to lease the land and provide it for racing. I wonder what BLM would say about that -- since he (we?) would be paying a fee to BLM and NOT taking out any material/minerals. Maybe they'd give him/us a better lease rate because we wouldn't degrade the inventory of available potash. Do you think so? Would you like to write the cover letter to the BLM and I'll sign it with a few of the other racers? Thanks.
:roll: :roll:
There is still support among Western Representatives and Senators to pass a "use it or lose it" bill, which would require a lease holder to extract or lose the right to do so on leased publically owned property. It's not law yet, but given the stink Tim DeChristopher made when he went in and outbid all the major and small petroleum extraction firms in an oil and gas lease auction, pretty firm scrutiny as to who is bidding on leases is now the norm . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8Jn46pVutc
The other downside is that if potash extraction were halted in its tracks, any cooperation from the owners of the plant would go away, and we'd be sitting with mountains of salt on the wrong side of the road, and no cost effective way of moving it back to where it belongs.
I might be wrong, but I don't think it was a coincidence that the largest amount of salt returned to the flats roughly coincided with a year of record high potash prices.
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On the other page someone mentioned an evaporation pond. Im sure there are some places in the US where this might be somewhat feasible. Could even lease the land maybe. Someplace near the Salton Sea might be a good location. Can pump the super saturated salt water into a evap pond and have the state pump sea water in to make the water less toxic. Could set up a desalination plant there to provide irrigation water for the local farm land(well it could be farm land if there was enough water) and a nice 12x1 mile evap pond that can double as a LSR venue a few times a year. Best part is its paid for by the state/federal government. Oh and the elevation is below sea level too.
What about getting the Sierra Club to attack the potash operation? They had Pikes Peak paved via law suit. Im sure there is something they can find wrong with the potash operation.
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Grant said "What about getting the Sierra Club to attack the potash operation? They had Pikes Peak paved via law suit. Im sure there is something they can find wrong with the potash operation."
Without finding something wrong with nasty old racing cars? :roll: Wayno
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Why build the evaporation pond off of the salt flats? Why not just build a set of retaining walls on the salt flats and use a pump/levee system to maintain the current course?
Let's say for argument sake, you built a levee 3 ft high that gave a 15 mile course 1 mile wide right on the salt. Wouldn't it be cheaper than finding another location somewhere else and pumping brine into it?
Think about this too, if we had levees around the track, not only could we decide the depth of salt we wanted, we could also control the water on the track. As a matter of fact, once the salt of the track was raised above the surrounding salt say more than 3 inches you could remove the levees. Then it would take 3+ inches of water to halt racing. Maybe three feet of levee is too much, maybe a six inch levee would do the trick?
I would love to have 15 miles of flat, paved surface that wasn't a 36 hour drive from my house, but I don't see that happening, it is just too expensive. So the next best thing would be to protect and improve what we have with the resources readily available. Besides, we could then continue the Bonneville tradition until there is literally no salt left.
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On the other page someone mentioned an evaporation pond. Im sure there are some places in the US where this might be somewhat feasible. Could even lease the land maybe. Someplace near the Salton Sea might be a good location. Can pump the super saturated salt water into a evap pond and have the state pump sea water in to make the water less toxic. Could set up a desalination plant there to provide irrigation water for the local farm land(well it could be farm land if there was enough water) and a nice 12x1 mile evap pond that can double as a LSR venue a few times a year. Best part is its paid for by the state/federal government. Oh and the elevation is below sea level too.
What about getting the Sierra Club to attack the potash operation? They had Pikes Peak paved via law suit. Im sure there is something they can find wrong with the potash operation.
It is sad to see the Salton sea today compared to the heyday of the 50s with resorts and powerboat racing!
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Whoa -- thanks, Tom. That's some in depth research (even if it's wrong :-D). Your conclusion, though - that if one of us wins a big payoff in the lottery he'd be able to lease the land and provide it for racing. I wonder what BLM would say about that -- since he (we?) would be paying a fee to BLM and NOT taking out any material/minerals. Maybe they'd give him/us a better lease rate because we wouldn't degrade the inventory of available potash. Do you think so? Would you like to write the cover letter to the BLM and I'll sign it with a few of the other racers? Thanks.
:roll: :roll:
There is still support among Western Representatives and Senators to pass a "use it or lose it" bill, which would require a lease holder to extract or lose the right to do so on leased publically owned property. It's not law yet, but given the stink Tim DeChristopher made when he went in and outbid all the major and small petroleum extraction firms in an oil and gas lease auction, pretty firm scrutiny as to who is bidding on leases is now the norm . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8Jn46pVutc
The other downside is that if potash extraction were halted in its tracks, any cooperation from the owners of the plant would go away, and we'd be sitting with mountains of salt on the wrong side of the road, and no cost effective way of moving it back to where it belongs.
I might be wrong, but I don't think it was a coincidence that the largest amount of salt returned to the flats roughly coincided with a year of record high potash prices.
Chris,
Thanks for that youtube link. He explains how the bidding on leased land worked when he was present.
Tom G.
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Why not just run on the South side of I-80?????? That is where the salt went.......
God I wish it was that easy!
The high speed tire situation really has us committed to running on salt, anything else won't keep them cool on a seven or eight mile pass. 300 ish is doable on dirt but much beyond that will require more distance & a different tire.
Sid.
If you could find 5 to 10 miles of flat ground why not just run on the dirt. No concrete needed.
Richard 2
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Why build the evaporation pond off of the salt flats? Why not just build a set of retaining walls on the salt flats and use a pump/levee system to maintain the current course?
Let's say for argument sake, you built a levee 3 ft high that gave a 15 mile course 1 mile wide right on the salt. Wouldn't it be cheaper than finding another location somewhere else and pumping brine into it?
Think about this too, if we had levees around the track, not only could we decide the depth of salt we wanted, we could also control the water on the track. As a matter of fact, once the salt of the track was raised above the surrounding salt say more than 3 inches you could remove the levees. Then it would take 3+ inches of water to halt racing. Maybe three feet of levee is too much, maybe a six inch levee would do the trick?
I would love to have 15 miles of flat, paved surface that wasn't a 36 hour drive from my house, but I don't see that happening, it is just too expensive. So the next best thing would be to protect and improve what we have with the resources readily available. Besides, we could then continue the Bonneville tradition until there is literally no salt left.
To build that levee, all it would take is a motor grader and an afternoon. Dig the blade through the salt to pick up some clay that wont be washed away by new water and it will pitch a berm plenty high as far as you can drive it.
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There is more to erosion than just water, and water wants to seek its own level.
Wind would be constantly chipping away at such a berm, and that wind would be carrying a very effective abrasive.
On top of that, wind would also be washing the water against the berm, further eroding it.
I'm not sure what the structure of the existing dikes are, but they are pretty substantial, and built on a more solid substrate than what is closer to where we race.
I suspect building such a berm would require a bit more work than what somebody could do with just a grader.
And if we were to go in and start modifying the landscape to suit our needs, it could then be argued that we're as unconcerned about the natural surroundings as the potash producer.
Additionally, the BLM can't officially "confirm" salt loss right now. The studies that would need to take place in order to change the landscape that significantly would take years, there is a fair likelihood that the best conclusion would be inconclusive, and then there's the cost of actually doing the work.
Not ruling out the idea - if the dikes could be built in such a way that they preserved a safer, longer race venue, I'd be all for it. I'm just questioning the simplicity of the solution, and wondering about the process that would need to go into place in order to make it a possibility.
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In regards to the Sierra Club comment i made. Could they not come up with a way regulating the amount of salt on the flats? Measure the average thickness everywhere and feed that into an equation that says how much salt they can use each year? Just have to make sure the target thickness is enough for a healthy track.
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Dikes hold water in. What happens when it rains overnight during or right before a meet? As it sits, lots of times the wind pushes the water away from the courses and we race. If you contain it you just made a holding pond. Airboat races! The Propish one would love it.
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Dikes hold water in. What happens when it rains overnight during or right before a meet? As it sits, lots of times the wind pushes the water away from the courses and we race. If you contain it you just made a holding pond. Airboat races! The Propish one would love it.
TMan, the thought would be that you dyke it up and pump brine into it and let the water evaporate. This would raise an area of salt that would be the racing surface. I don't think it would need to be 3ft high, just high enough to make a salt plateau. If it rained, the water could roll off the plateau or if the wind blew water around, it would have to be deeper than the height of the plateau before it interfered with the racing surface.
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There is a 15,000 ft runway in Southern California that might work better then the Spaceport in New Mexico -Southern California Logistics Airport formerly known as George AFB. I'm guessing it being used for cargo flights. There is a 27,000 ft runway not that far away but it is government owned and they refuse to admit that it even exists.
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Motor grader idea: As I remember, a few years ago there was a time when the salt was rougher than a cob -- so bad that racing wasn't going to e possible - probably. The story goes that USFRA retained the service of a motor grader to power-grade the surface to make it smooth. And it didn't work. The salt was very hard - and even with the positive down pressure afforded by the weight of the machine - it couldn't give reliable results over long distances.
Then you've got to add the difficulty of grading the salt where it's inches thick here, feet thick there, and millimeters thick in other places. Scrape through the salt and into the mud -- and that's all for that particular patch for a few years or decades.
Bbarn, to make your dike/berm work you'd have to keep the rain from falling inside the dike. That'll take a mighty big umbrella. :evil:
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There is a 15,000 ft runway in Southern California that might work better then the Spaceport in New Mexico -Southern California Logistics Airport formerly known as George AFB. I'm guessing it being used for cargo flights. There is a 27,000 ft runway not that far away but it is government owned and they refuse to admit that it even exists.
Is that the runway with the X's on it or is another one of those "non-exists" runways out there? It also looks like the run-off is another 5,000 ft too boot.
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Before you haul your grading equipment or even your plan to save the salt it is best to check with the BLM. Any messin' with public lands could include Federal changes being brought to you and yours. Witness the in limbo dry salt lay down project.
DW
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I think this person sums it up pretty well.
Tom G.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand.
Milton Friedman
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Before you haul your grading equipment or even your plan to save the salt it is best to check with the BLM. Any messin' with public lands could include Federal changes being brought to you and yours. Witness the in limbo dry salt lay down project.
DW
No $hit!! :cheers:
Sid.
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An idea I've heard about for a few years is run on the salt flats about 5 miles north east of where we run now. Something like 20 miles of NaCl out there, 'cept you can't get to it for the mud. Might be "simpler" to build a road out to it. Of course that assumes you could get the enthusiastic endorsement of the Sierra Club, the EPA, the BLM, NSA, FFA, FBI, DOD, CIA, WTF, FTC, FAA, KGB, NRO, DHS, NBC, ABC, PBS, ETC.
But it IS out there.
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Jim.......you fotgot the railroad.
Mike Akatiff did a good investigation of that site.
He liked it but not the costs that make it possible.
FREUD
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And after clearances, the cost to build the Knapp Rd would be?
DW
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Sorry, I should have added;
PAID by whom?
DW
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You're up awfully late there DW. Co$t$ of road would be a DEFINITE issue. I just think building a low speed two lane 30ft wide would be a LOT cheaper than a high speed one lane 1/2 mile wide.
Hmmmm... wonder what it would cost to rent a heavy lift copter, AKA sky crane, for a week and shuttle race trailers and crew out and back?
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...I just think building a low speed two lane 30ft wide would be a LOT cheaper than a high speed one lane 1/2 mile wide....
Not a bad idea, after all look what are buddies down under drive over to race. We are spoiled. The potash plant might foot the cost or use their equipment to get us off there backs and maybe even the BLM :-).
Is there any truth to the rumor that there is a lot of left over ordnance from military use?
The area in question is where the ...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/race%20track-1.jpg)
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/race%20track-1.jpg (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/race%20track-1.jpg)
... top arrow is with the bottom arrow obviously being the present course location.
This is not a 'do this tomorrow' project but it might not hurt to start doing some serious investigation into if it would be feasible at some point. It has been talked about for some time. I think feeling that the BLM and/or the Potash Plant is going to drastically change direction and the salt flats are all going to be restored is hiding our heads in the salt. It isn't just about us it is about those who are following behind us and who are going to be racing 10, 15 or 20 years from now. Remember 1993 was only 20 years ago, time goes by quickly. Lets not look back later like some do now that could see what was going on 20-50 years ago and say we 'blew it',
Sum
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A reality check...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/race%20track-2.jpg)
Click on the following link for a better view..
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/race%20track-2.jpg (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/race%20track-2.jpg)
When you are out there the salt looks immense but it isn't anymore. The bottom left arrow is the 'end of the road'. The bottom right is the dike. The other arrows are the race surface or what is left of it. Notice how narrow the actual white area is. Anyone who drove down any of the courses this year to the last miles knows they were driving on dirt there. You can even see how the runoff from the hills to the west are eating into the salt on the west side of the track. A good indication it isn't very thick there.
By comparison here is the area to the north at the same scale...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/race%20track-3.jpg)
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/race%20track-3.jpg (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/race%20track-3.jpg)
..... Very white and you can't even see any edges to it so it is much larger in size.
So I know some like Mike have gone there, what is it really like in person? Anyone taken any depth readings over and area the size we would need?
Sum
Sum
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If you look closely (on Google Earth) there is a road that branches off from the road to the dump at the "bend in the road" that goes along the mountains at the edge of the flats all the way out to the area Jim and Sum are talking about. It is about 20 miles rough calculation. Have no idea about condition, doubt it gets graded regularly and from the edge of that to the evident good salt is about 2 miles. Maybe worth a look?
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Jack, that road isn't all too difficult to drive for recreation, but towing a trailer full of race vehicles and tools? I don't think so, although I probably didn't have that in mind when Nancy and I rode the road a couple of years ago. Kinda bumpy and twisty-turny and sharp up and down grades (not tall, but enough to worry about bottoming out the trailer). It wouldn't take too much to make it passable -- but it'd require more than a few days with a small grader, that's for sure. Nice scenery, though - if you like that kind of stuff.
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Figured someone would know it. But while we are thinking pie in the sky ways to get/find a better surface it might be better than starting from scratch from somewhere, regulatory issues aside. Oh well.
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Frankly I prefer the notion of a new road. I mean I kinda liked DW calling it "the Knapp road". Not much chance of that happening using the "lakefront" route.
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How about Bloodhound? Heard rumors of them building a road to there from the most unreliable person I know for telling the truth but maybe they would be interested :?
Permit for graded 16 t0 20' wide road maybe a few culverts where needed. If there is already a road just a permit to widen
it. Wishful thinking Knowing bureaucrats, I had to get permission from Fish and Game [because drainage would go into a creek miles away] for installing a culvert on extending the road to our new house, complete with drawings from our plot and grading engineering co. :roll:
Not a good Idea for dirt road unless soil does not get slick and muddy when wet but I think the soil is mostly sandy.
Don't want nightmare of racers getting stuck and not able to get out.
Maybe someone could make a test drive looking for any problems such as major washes ect,
JL222 :cheers:
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Isn't there a road on the east side of the flats going to floating mountain and the military range area?
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Yep, it comes off I-80 at about the 37mile marker & runs along the top of the flood dyke to floating mt. It has a gate right before the pump station that requires the correct tool. :roll:
Sid.
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I'm surprised, or maybe not, that someone has not taken a Top Fuel or Top Ally car to one of the present runway venues. T/F reach almost 290 at the eigth mile. Properly detuned to live 1 or 1 1/2 mle I think 500mph is attainable. Tires would be the big issue, as well as finding someone dumb enough to try it....
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Silver mountain road would need a lot of work, we drove it while bored waiting for the Shootout, it was damp (slippery in spots) at the time and the far side was deeply rutted by the rain
some of the road near the saddle is on a powdery alkaline dust, that would not support much traffic either dry or wet
And from what we hear from the ordinance collecting guys after hours at Carmens when there work coincides with one of the events , that end is littered with hardware
Not impossible, just some hurdles
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I'm surprised, or maybe not, that someone has not taken a Top Fuel or Top Ally car to one of the present runway venues. T/F reach almost 290 at the eigth mile. Properly detuned to live 1 or 1 1/2 mle I think 500mph is attainable. Tires would be the big issue, as well as finding someone dumb enough to try it....
Not counting tires, wouldn't pass tech...... :evil:
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The FIA Land Speed Commission just homolgated some speed records.
http://racing.ford.com/series/road-racing/news/articles/2013/12/video--fia-announces-homologation-of-speed-records-at-daytona.html (http://racing.ford.com/series/road-racing/news/articles/2013/12/video--fia-announces-homologation-of-speed-records-at-daytona.html)
Looks like fun. :mrgreen: I wonder how much a week's rent would be?
:cheers:
Mike
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The FIA Land Speed Commission just homolgated some speed records.
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Congratulations to Ford. Looks like they set Absolute World Records for 10 km and 10 miles from a standing start.
Perhaps they should have timed the 1 mile distance as well. Could have beaten the BMW H2R record, giving them three in a row.
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How about Bloodhound? Heard rumors of them building a road to there from the most unreliable person I know for telling the truth but maybe they would be interested :?
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It is unlikely Bloodhound will run in the USA. AFAIK current plans are for low speed shake-down runs in Cornwall followed almost immediately by record attempts in South Africa.
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I'm surprised, or maybe not, that someone has not taken a Top Fuel or Top Ally car to one of the present runway venues. T/F reach almost 290 at the eigth mile. Properly detuned to live 1 or 1 1/2 mle I think 500mph is attainable. Tires would be the big issue, as well as finding someone dumb enough to try it....
Not counting tires, wouldn't pass tech...... :evil:
Would be allowed under the FIA, but it would be wise to change tyres. The UK wheeldriven record for the flying start kilo was set in 1970 by a dragster after a 1 kilo run to the timing trap. Average speed was 207.98 mph. Not sure you would see 500 (unless kph) and there was no surface preparation allowed to launch the car.
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The FIA Land Speed Commission just homolgated some speed records.
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Congratulations to Ford. Looks like they set Absolute World Records for 10 km and 10 miles from a standing start.
Perhaps they should have timed the 1 mile distance as well. Could have beaten the BMW H2R record, giving them three in a row.
Video shows these records were for a flying start, even though a standing start was mentioned in the early commentary.
Malcolm. Derby, England
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Looks like fun. :mrgreen: I wonder how much a week's rent would be? Mike
If you wanted to run on a two mile circular banked track (oval) in the UK then you would need about $55,000 per day for exclusive use. Would you like me to organise this for you? Location is in Bedford, England - use UK postcode MK45 2JQ on google maps to take a look at this facility and the high speed circuit. Fastest lap so far is just under 200 mph by a roadgoing car.
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Malcolm;
Is that the MIRA track?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Malcolm;
Is that the MIRA track?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
No the perfect circle is at Millbrook. MIRA has so far seen slower speeds on its oval high speed track.
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Looks like fun. :mrgreen: I wonder how much a week's rent would be? Mike
If you wanted to run on a two mile circular banked track (oval) in the UK then you would need about $55,000 per day for exclusive use. Would you like me to organise this for you? Location is in Bedford, England - use UK postcode MK45 2JQ on google maps to take a look at this facility and the high speed circuit. Fastest lap so far is just under 200 mph by a roadgoing car.
What is the fastest closed circuit lap anywhere?
I found this...
fastest unofficial lap in Indy car racing history -- 242.333 mph during a practice session at what was then called California Speedway.
http://espn.go.com/racing/indycar/story/_/id/9282422/indycar-indy-needs-more-speed (http://espn.go.com/racing/indycar/story/_/id/9282422/indycar-indy-needs-more-speed)
Sum
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Sum, Nope. Look up AJ Foyt at Fort Stockton driving the Olds Aerotech.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_Aerotech
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mQvE5lykicSimilar
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Sum, Nope. Look up AJ Foyt at Fort Stockton driving the Olds Aerotech.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_Aerotech
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mQvE5lykicSimilar
Thanks, 257+,
Sum
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Sum, Nope. Look up AJ Foyt at Fort Stockton driving the Olds Aerotech.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_Aerotech
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mQvE5lykicSimilar
Thanks, 257+,
Sum
And that was the 2liter "world" record for a while that I chased for some time (Along with the 254 MG record). I managed to exceed it and qualify several times but never could quite put 3 runs together. Sometimes had 2 of the 3. Included a couple over 270. That's racin'.
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Your posting suggests that there would be kudos if someone was to challenge the 2 litre capacity one mile flying start world record (which it is called now) set by A J Foyt at 267.399 mph ..... on the 30th anniversary which will come up on 27.08.2017.
Will the USA have a venue for such a bid on that date?
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I was running back when Bonneville records required qualifier and then 2 runs within an hour, that is, to FIA rules even though not FIA sanctioned. The current Bonneville records are 348 and 352 (Fuel and gas). I suppose if someone (Jack Yacoucci in this case) was interested and there was salt available and Cook was running the Shootout on the proper date, and they got FIA folks to come etc etc, it could be done..... Lot of "ifs". My car is still running with Jim Knapp piloting and wrenching. Maybe he'd like to go back to 2 liter power. He's been close with that, and over 300 with 3 liter.
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Jack, Jim would just need to disconnect 1 motor to be in the 2 liter range... is the FIA record blown or NA, I guess I need to look back a few posts.
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Jack, Jim would just need to disconnect 1 motor to be in the 2 liter range... is the FIA record blown or NA, I guess I need to look back a few posts.
well the Aerotech was blown for sure. 267 unblown is pretty good though he has been 260 so in reach. But, Here I am in tech with a 3 motor car. Hey, Dan, I was just using two of them so running G instead of F. Uh Huh...... :-D :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Sumner's question was for a "closed course" record. AJ ran 2 ways but it was on a oval track with timing in the mile straight sections.
No issue with FIA or Bonneville records just pointing out the differance.
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Sumner's question was for a "closed course" record. AJ ran 2 ways but it was on a oval track with timing in the mile straight sections.
No issue with FIA or Bonneville records just pointing out the differance.
Absolutely- just sidetracked thinking about Malcom's comment.
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There are several tribes in AZ that are in mostly flat desert ---one is already in the racing business -- whenever there would be enough need we could start exploring ---ie El M or B'ville goes down
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Looks like fun. :mrgreen: I wonder how much a week's rent would be? Mike
If you wanted to run on a two mile circular banked track (oval) in the UK then you would need about $55,000 per day for exclusive use. Would you like me to organise this for you? Location is in Bedford, England - use UK postcode MK45 2JQ on google maps to take a look at this facility and the high speed circuit. Fastest lap so far is just under 200 mph by a roadgoing car.
What is the fastest closed circuit lap anywhere?
I found this...
fastest unofficial lap in Indy car racing history -- 242.333 mph during a practice session at what was then called California Speedway.
http://espn.go.com/racing/indycar/story/_/id/9282422/indycar-indy-needs-more-speed (http://espn.go.com/racing/indycar/story/_/id/9282422/indycar-indy-needs-more-speed)
Sum
Thank you. reminds me how sucky Indycar racing is these days.