Landracing Forum
Tech Information => EFI Questions => Topic started by: entropy on November 08, 2013, 07:37:12 AM
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My partner & I recently switched from running LSR bikes to a Lakester which we plan to put on the salt at 2014 Speed Week.
We have moderately strong installation & operation experience with AIM Sport and Innovate, not 100% pleased with either.
So I am researching data logging options for a car on salt.
RacePak & Edlebrock Quick Data keep coming up in discussions, but I am open to anything.
Dave Dahlgren of this site kindly offered to configure a solution for us, but I feel his vast experience and preferences deal with more complexity than we need.
Any comments, advice, experience would be gratefully received!!!
Thanks,
Karl
basically...
TFA Racing Lakester data acquisition / recording / display requirements
(current engine: mild 500hp 383cui V8, 4 bbl carburetor)
- system must be 100% reliable (no flimsy connectors, no quirky software)
- cost: probably $3-5K depending upon dash & number/type channels & sensors
Requirements
- dash w/shiftlight
- 2 x A/F sensors
- RPM
- throttle position
- engine oil pressure
- engine oil temp
- water temp into motor
- water temp out of motor
- fuel pressure
- F wheel speed
- R wheel speed
- dash display of % tire slip
- GPS - instantaneous mph & time/distance traveled
- Crankcase pressure - good to have
- Intake Air Temperature - good to have
- Intake Manifold Pressure - good to have
- Accelerometer - good to have
- Front camera - good to have
- Rear Camera - good to have
Note: logging system needs to be expandable to log FI /turbo stuff
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I have a RacePak data logger dash. I am really happy with it. It can handle all of your listed data needs and more. Donnie at RacePak is involved with the 911 Roadster so he is typically out on the Salt at the events. What impressed me is after Bonneville when I disassembled my car all of my RacePak connectors were in great shape and reusable.
The software is intuitive and easy to master. I like the GPS MPH function fight on the dash read out. I found it to be within .010 of the timing clocks.
BR
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I have goods things about Racepak and Donnie. :cheers:
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I have goods things about Racepak and Donnie. :cheers:
fred,
you "have the goods on Donnie"? :cheers:
karl
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RacePak & Edlebrock Quick Data keep coming up in discussions, but I am open to anything.
Dave Dahlgren of this site kindly offered to configure a solution for us, but I feel his vast experience and preferences deal with more complexity than we need.
Any comments, advice, experience would be gratefully received!!!
Thanks,
Karl
Note: logging system needs to be expandable to log FI /turbo stuff
Dave is a really smart guy, and he knows this stuff so well that it sounds quite complex, but when you get to the "do it" stage, Dave is the guy you want on your team. You are planning to switch to turbo/EFI after the car is sorted... you will want Dave to call on.
Here is my story... we got tired of piggy back on piggy back control, switching all the ECU wiring when we changed motors, buying piggy backs for everything... well you know the drill, so a guy on this site had a Motec for sale, we struck a deal and I had a Motec. Jon Amo had one on his bike, Joe Amo had one on his bike, they both said call Dave. I did. Dave had done the wiring loom and sold the Motec several years before. I told him what I was planning and doing, we talked about what I had and what I was trying to do. He told me I had most of what I needed, the differences in what I was doing with the small four as opposed to the Buell that it was designed for and how to change it all. He knew Busa from working with Ack, so I took the easy route and bought a few connectors, relays and sensors from Dave. He told me he could build my relay set for me, but it would be cheaper for me to just build it myself, he told me how it needed to work, and I built it. (For the salt you want all of your wiring and relays to be sealed... not sealed like the relays on the bike... sealed.) Dave has sent me to his suppliers to buy parts, why, because it would cost more to have it shipped to him and then him sell and ship it to me. He is great to work with... yes we are now good friends... I had met him, but I didn't know him before I bought the Motec. I call, and he talks me through stuff... I send him a map, he looks at it and we talk about it, great coach for someone learning EFI from scratch... me... Hey, years ago I was going to put carbs on a Busa motor because I didn't know anything about EFI.
Do I sound like a Dave fan... yes I am. Motec may not be the cheapest stuff out there, but it is all expandable to be as simple or complicated as you want it. Call Dave and talk a little. Or call me and talk a little....
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Stainless,
Thanks a million for taking the time to relate yr situation and help you received from Dave.
I have heard the same great things about Dave from several other people. Apparently he has helped MANY folks out.
I did talk to Dave, he was great, and we agreed that his expertise was most useful to projects that are combining Engine Management Systems with data logging/display. His genius is particularly helpful to folks just starting down the EMS & EFI & data logging road, or folks with very complicated/sophisticated systems, like road racing applications.
Our 2014 needs are modest, routine data logging and display, no EFI/EMS whatever.
I have 10+ years installing/using data logging systems in a motorcycle EFI environment; both dave & I agreed, that what i primarily needed was the simply right product & vendor.
One of Don & my very helpful "email buddies" sent this last night which sums it up for me:
"If you want to acquire and read car data go with the RacePack. If you want to manage data and use it to drive the engine management systems go Motec and Dave Dahlgren is the master."
wheelrdealer,
Thanks for your comments on Racepak, I have heard similar comments from most other people.
We are still evaluating solutions but yesterday we were supplied a very timely & attractive quote on a complete Racepak system from Greg Kelly in Hainesport, NJ, which handles all our requirements including the dash, sensors & cables for not a lot more than $4k.
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Sounds like you already tried Innovate. We have been happy with them with the Stude. A few problems in the past but looking back they were our fault. I like the new data recorder, the PL-1, but would like it better if they got the remote start implemented. We run the Innovate on a separate battery to keep it all from dropping out during engine starts (low voltage). We added a lot to it this year and are now data logging 16 inputs. We don't have some of the dash items you want, but I wonder if a driver can look at them anyway on a run?
The Stude is not running EFI at this point but a blow-thru C & S carb. I'm planning on starting with EFI on the lakester and will most likely go with DIYautotune's Mega Squirt MS3-Pro....
http://www.diyautotune.com/ms3-pro.html
..... It has enough data logging to handle about everything we are doing with the Innovate on the Stude and of course also fuel and spark control and added options like traction control and wastegate control and is priced under $1400. You don't have to run the fuel/spark to use it for datalogging.
It is not a simple plug-and-play system so not for everyone and maybe not for you but it might fit some of the people's needs that are reading this thread. Jerry at DIYautotune also has been to the salt, supports teams like ours and has a car that he is bringing to the salt so another supplier that is also one of us,
Sum
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Sum,
Thanks much for your detailed reply.
Innovate: yup, i used DL-32 etc for 12 years and generally got good data but their components and especially their connections are fragile. I imagine a smart looking asian guy, pocket full of pens, building and testing their systems on a bench, being very happy with ease of use & performance; BIG smile on his face. But in the real world...
Also, the DL-32 isn't able to handle wheel speed without using a digital to analog convertor. I had one made but just another complication.
Reliability of my logging system is one of my obsessions.
With Innovate, I had trace issues or no logs at all about 20% of the time on dyno or track which isn't acceptable. Especially when you add that failure rate to me getting stupid and forgetting to turn on the logger from time to time.
I'm sure that many of my problems were self induced. :-D
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Karl
Why cant you wire it so when the engine switch is on the Data PC is on too, then no brain fade deals of forgetting
G Don
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Karl
Why cant you wire it so when the engine switch is on the Data PC is on too, then no brain fade deals of forgetting
G Don
My Innovate control box was on whenever the bike was on, you still need to it a button to start the logging process.
To make things even more fun, with my AIM Sport data logger, it was necessary to hit the stop logging button before shutting off the bike or you'd lose the log. I told AIM support about it and they couldn't "fix" it.
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I decided to try the Innovate MTX-L wide band O2 sensor and gauge, as the reviews were positive. In order to log the data vs. RPM and EGT, I also purchased the respective MTX-D gauges and the PL-1 Pocket Logger. I'm not impressed by Innovates interconnecting wiring, as is seems to be a combination of old and new. Firstly, attaching gauges to a computer for set-up uses an RS-232 cable connection. New computers don't have that so I guess you buy an adapter to connect to a USB port. Except all the reviews I've read say that the adapter sometimes picks up noise. And you need a PC and Windows to read the software and I have a Mac. And it seems from the reviews that Windows XP is the best OS to use. OK so I can buy a re-manufactured Dell computer that has the RS-232 port and Windows XP. But, the PL-1 Pocket Logger uses an SD card to log data and comes with a card reader to plug into a USB port. But of course, I don't think the older Dell computer has a USB port.
The other anomaly is that the gauges are designed to be daisy chained together and to the Data Logger, but all the connectors are the same gender, i.e. all male pins. So you have to buy patch cables with female to female ends which are 4 feet long, which would be fine if my gauges were 4 feet apart! And all this wiring has to fit in a space about 8" square between my frame rails and above my motor. I don't expect to be able to read all of them, but I think I need them if I want the data to log using RPM as a reference rather than just time.
Here are a few photos of one of the gauges and its connectors as well as the Pocket Logger and its 4 foot connector ends. With the right tools and some extra Molex Mini Jr. connectors, I guess I could make a shorter connector, but I don't know what part numbers I need nor where to buy small quantities. Or I could just cut the 4 foot cables and splice the wires back together.
Any ideas?
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Whatever the price of admission to access D. D. warped mind is worth it---but be aware he is not above trying you on with an "intelligence test" :-o ---such as-- do you keep dragging the beer cooler out of the sun into the shade :? I passed--lol :roll:
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KK, i feel your pain.
My home laptop is a mac.
To run my new Racepak System I had to buy a Dell.
Oh well, buying the stuff is 1/10th of the battle.
Right now I am trying to craft a "Data Logging, Display, and Interpretation Plan" covering both analog gauges & digital output.
My head hurts.
Karl
PS: I ran several Innovate systems on my bikes; GD connectors drove me nuts. But the data was 1st rate when everything was set up right.
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All Dell laptops that I am aware of built since 1999 have usb ports.
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...Any ideas?
A couple.
USB -- Serial Adapter. I've use one of these for all kinds of programs including Innovate on different computers with never a problem....
http://www.amazon.com/Keyspan-USA-19HS-Hi-Speed-supports-Sequence/dp/tags-on-product/B0000VYJRY
I also bought some $12 Chinese ones, but haven't tried them.
A year ago while we could still get them with Windows 7 we bought two Gateway Netbooks at Walmart...
http://www.amazon.com/Gateway-Series-LT4010U-1-6GHz-Starter/dp/B00AKHO2QQ/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top (http://www.amazon.com/Gateway-Series-LT4010U-1-6GHz-Starter/dp/B00AKHO2QQ/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top)
....for a little over $200 and love them and I now run the Innovate software on them for setup at home and to view on the track using the Keyspan adapter above. Not a true daylight screen but I don't have to view in the pits under a towel all the time. I think they have been discontinued due to things going to Windows 8 but one might be able to pick one up used.
If you can find the USB port on that computer then a $10 card reader will have you in business.
Had you considered not another gauge but instead the LMA-3 AuxBox. For not too much more than the gauge you would of had 5 channels of data:
3-Bar MAP / Boost
RPM
Injector Duty Cycle
EGT / CHT
2-Axis Accelerometer
MTS compliant
....and some of those can be reconfigure for other inputs if desired.
The wiring can be confusing I agree and is setup more for a car than a bike. I don't think there is a way to shorten the gauge wiring but if wiring between things like LMA-3's and other devices they do have shorter 1 foot cables,
Sum
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Thanks, guys,
I glad to know that the serial to USB adaptor doesn't cause problems. I think the guys on the internet were probably talking about computer logging in real time on a dyno. I won't be doing any computer logging while riding down the flats @ 150mph or so! Checking on eBay, there are 1,000s of used computers for sale. How to get a good one, I don't know.
Sum,
You say that Innovate have a 1' cord as well. Do you know the part #? BTW, with my three gauges I can log AFR, EGT or CHT, MAP, & RPM.
Entropy,
"Oh well, buying the stuff is 1/10th of the battle." I'd say that is spot on.
Whatever the price of admission to access D. D. warped mind is worth it---but be aware he is not above trying you on with an "intelligence test" :-o ---such as-- do you keep dragging the beer cooler out of the sun into the shade :? I passed--lol :roll:
What?
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My warped mind-- :-D DD likes to drink and debate "things" around a beer cooler when I had to move the cooler several times---I "jumped his case" as to why-- I was the one who kept dragging the cooler out of the sun, and he never did! His reply " It was an IQ test! I shot back "Well I guess I passed and you flunked, since I was the one who always moved it!"
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Sum,
You say that Innovate have a 1' cord as well. Do you know the part #? BTW, with my three gauges I can log AFR, EGT or CHT, MAP, & RPM. ..
The one I use the most with the A/F is throttle position as to me it is important to use the two together. Lots of times the driver thinks he is WOT but isn't 8-). So you want to know what the A/F is on and slightly off throttle and without the TPS how do you know?
The cable deal is a mess as some of the newer products, like your gauges, use those 4 pin square connectors and the older products the phono plug type and you need to switch between with adapter cables. It is all making their older products still work with the newer ones in the daisy chain. Since you are using the gauges, if I remember right they are a fixed length out of the gauge and into the gauge so not sure the short are going to work. They are to go between devices like the LMA-3's.
Here is the 6 inch one I used (not 12 inch like I thought) but I don't think it is going to help with your situation....
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16281&cat=0&page=1
... we use it between the 2 LAM-3's and the TC-4.
Here are some other cables they also have and sometimes are needed for different configurations.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16187&cat=0&page=1
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16188&cat=0&page=1
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16298&cat=0&page=1
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16339&cat=0&page=1
On the usb/serial adapters I've heard of some that do have problems with some applications and is why I went with the KeySpan as I people that had problems went to it to rectify them, so I just started there :-)
Good luck,
Sum
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You can shorten and hardwire any of the cables but you throw away the warranty
i have often done it on the lc1/dl32 combo i used for a few yrs
those connectors do not like salt , just a small amount of contamination will make the receptors in the logger green and useless
I wire the lc1 into one of the dl32 0-5v inputs as the daisy chain and salt are only good once. Trouble is that occupies one of the limited number of inputs
You could try plastic bagging the unit , found that helps with unsealed electronics
Innovate list a db9/usb adaptor that works well
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Thanks, Sparky, you had me lost on that one!
And Maj, I wonder if the warranty would be any good anyway, as they'd probably just say that we used them in improper conditions.
So, Sum, the pigtails on the new gauges are all 6" long, one is input, one is output, so the gauges could connect together if they were within say 6 or 8" from each other, no problem. What logic does it make to have both of them the same gender? As I've said elsewhere, there are people who are smarter than I am, but they sure know how to screw up a wet dream.
All the interconnecting 4 pin fasteners are described as "Molex" (and the flat connectors actually have the Molex name on them), but the 4 pin connectors have what looks like a backwards RJ on them. I can't even imagine what language that is. You might be able to see that from the photo. The other thing that is baffling about the EGT gauge is that there are 5 wires coming out of the harness, with a 3 pin and a 2 pin flat Molex connector which aren't mentioned either within the included literature or on the internet "instruction manual" for this gauge.
What they have included with each gauge is a RS-232 connector to a 4 pin female connector that will of course plug into either the input or the output of each gauge. If I could take two of these apart and get some new pins, I could cut off the output or the input of each gauge and reassemble using new pins and the spare 4 pin connectors. But as I said, I don't know the manufacturer or the part numbers to order. I may just cut the wires and splice them together with heat shrink tubing to avoid the 4 foot connector that's available (your last link). Hopefully someone will recognize the backwards RJ and give me a clue to buying the right connectors.
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As there not a sealed connector your better off just replacing them both
Dunno about the warranty, any time i tried the unit was returned with absolutely no info, and i still never knew if it were fixed or not untill i tried it
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................So, Sum, the pigtails on the new gauges are all 6" long, one is input, one is output, so the gauges could connect together if they were within say 6 or 8" from each other, no problem. What logic does it make to have both of them the same gender? ....
Well I owe you an apology :cry: I was remembering that the pigtails were long, but you are right.....
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/13-Hooley/Innovate%20a-f-1.jpg)
..... they are short and I have one of the long 4 foot patch cables between them. I have it coiled and zip tied (just went out and looked) as......
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/13-Hooley/Innovate%20a-f-2.jpg)
..... the gauges are close together, see above. I don't remember seeing a short 4 pin patch cable just the short ones with the plug on the ends. I'd call them.
For us the 4 foot cable from the right one over to...
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/13-Hooley/Innovate%20lma-3-1.jpg)
... the LAM-3's, TC-4 and PL-1 is ok . I do agree that the way the wiring is accomplished and the same gender connectors thing could be better thought out. Before we added to the data logging last year I looked and still couldn't find anything as flexible for the money as the Innovate stuff. I'm sure there is better out there, but at what cost?
I'm going to use the MegaSquirt on the lakester and think I can data-log almost everything we do now on the stude and if not there are some add-ons to it to that can increase it. I'd advise people to look into it. You don't have to use the fuel and spark part of it, but could just use it for data-logging. You still need someone else's wideband O2 sensor/controller to work with it. It will work with Innovate's gauges and controllers.
Don't know what to tell you about the EGT deal. There again I'd call. They have always been helpful to me,
Sum
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I am using my Big Stuff 3 for data logging purposes only this year.
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We just signed with a distributor that gets us good pricing on the Edelbrock Data Logger and the AEM data logger. AEM has limits to discounts allowed but we can help with free domestic shipping and no sales tax outside Florida. Unlike the big catalog houses, whenever someone from LSR buys from Parkland Autosport we throw a little coin Slim's way to keep the lights on LR.com. Send me a PM with your part numbers and I will get back with you on prices and shipping.
It will be a while before I get all the AEM Edelbrock part numbers up on the website. Adding all the Dart blocks and Head part numbers this weekend.
BR