Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA General Chat => Topic started by: Eddish on October 11, 2013, 07:36:17 AM
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OK, I’ll get the apology out of the way right off the bat; Sorry, no “Intro” posting ……. I’m boring and rarely post (but lurk and benefit greatly from the wisdom of others …. Thanks to all for that !) so I did not/don’t expect that you’ll hear from me again.
That said, I feel that it is imperative that the following gets on the board so that others might learn something that could save some skin, if not a life.
Thanks to a great friend I was afforded the opportunity to do Ohio last month (Sept.) on a Busa and big-inch twin. That experience followed a couple of weekends before the demise of Maxton (double handful of 200+ passes) as well as a fairly substantial career road racing (incl. one GP Natl.Championship). so, all in all I have a few growth rings and a good bit of experience going fast at organized events.
Wilmington turned out to be a pretty ugly thrash for us due to tuning issues and we generally spent the entire weekend attempting to get a 230MPH scoot to log a 200.00001 number in order to reach our goal of a record and a hat. The entire effort had boiled down to one last run (3:50 PM or so) for that nominal percentage of 1 MPH needed on Sunday afternoon. The scoot benefited from that cool, damp, post-drizzle atmosphere and motoring past the ½ I was confident that we had done the deal. That was about the time that I detected something on-track that I could only (initially) identify as a Turkey Vulture, just left of track center between the ¾ and the traps. Yeah, we’re goin fast about here and although my world is a bit wonky (what with the speed and ogling through the bubble) I’ve seem them beasties before. I’m out on the two-lanes (at meaningful speed) every Sunday morn and I darn sure know all about those impediments …… spotting them in the immediate vicinity while at speed calls for a roll-off, brake cover and big-time attention to the details! Well, as one might expect things came into more precise focus in a big hurry and my Vulture opponent turned out to be a (black/dark) Busa front fender sitting there proudly, perpendicular to my route. Naturally I tipped the throttle plates back to the full open position and muttered a few choice expletives into my Arai. Having the aforementioned experience at roadrace tracks, after gathering in the scoot I went long and immediately began gesticulating to the course worker at the track end to shut down the track (yeah, in addition multiple throat slash gestures I’ll admit to doing the rider down head tap thing too). Confident that I’d gotten the message across I returned to the staging lanes and trailered the scoot at 4:01 P …….. our weekend was done.
Reading the preceding I find that aside from the bit about muttering into my helmet I don’t sound anywhere as PO’d ……. no, flat out fried ! …… as I actually was at the time. I’m thinking things like “Just how much energy does it take to accelerate a Busa fender from 0 to 200 mph instantaneously and what are the effects of that sort of impact on my ride?” …. too; “There’s a good target for a rookie (or most anyone else) to fixate on!” …. and; “Just how in the Hades can somebody give Al the go to send a bike down course with a big ole black lump like that sitting out there plain as the nose of their face?” ……. AND, “Who shed that thing and did not make sure that the course was shut down immediately? “
Something is seriously wrong with that picture folks! That lump was perfectly located so as to be plainly visible to anyone scanning the course (particularly down on the big end where I presume(d) that “scanning” is accomplished after every pass?). I think that the course scan, right along with competent Tech and comprehensive rider/driver briefings are the imperatives to be met by ECTA at these events. Pretty much everything else is secondary. Sending a rider down course with that sort of crap on the track is flat out inexcusable and it does not take any imagination to understand that it’s asking for yet another short course LSR fatality.
Fast forward a few minutes post-loading and I caught up to Keith Turk at the registration trailer and posed the obvious question(s); Was that in fact a Busa fender? And, “How come I was sent down course with that thing lying out there?”. Sadly, I did not get anything even vaguely resembling what one could/should expect. Most disturbing, from my perspective, was his response to the latter; “We can’t see everything out there!” and this delivered with what I can/will only describe as an indifferent attitude. Pretty much sucks in my estimation. No one is ever going to convince me that that obstacle was not plainly visible to anyone even casually scanning the big end of that course (binoculars anyone?) from what I presume would be the timing trailer ….. period. There’s a deficiency here (perhaps more that one?) that absolutely must be addressed by this organization if riders/drivers are to have any semblance of assurance regarding the safety they expect and deserve.
So, deficiencies identified here’s a couple of suggestions;
Never, never, never send a rider/vehicle down course if it has not been thoroughly scanned (a natural, that) !
Provide clear direction at the rider/driver meetings regarding how to properly react when something is dropped (or thought to have been dropped … or observed) on the course.
Act like rider/driver safety is important! Copping an attitude/getting defensive accomplishes nothing and sends the wrong message.
Oh, yeah ……… we missed our record/hat goal by about 7/10 ths. of a MPH ……. Thanks guys!
BTW; Yeah, I too think the volunteers and Registration ladies at the event did/do an outstanding job!
Just,
Eddish
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Having worked the timing tower many times I can assure you that the track is scanned before each run down the track. I'm not saying that it wasn't missed that time but you would be very surprised how hard it is to see even the biggest objects. Spend some time in the tower Joe would love your company. The rule is if something comes off of your vehicle you are suppose to stop on the course in shut down and NOT continue to the shut down worker. It seems no matter how many times you tell people this they still continue off the course get off/out of their vehicle and walk over to the shut down worker. The problem with that is once the vehicle gets off of the taxi way and on to the return road the next racer is given the go ahead. There is no communication between shut down and the tower unless an emergency arises. The tower controls the whole course. The reason for this is to save time to get the racers more runs. If everyone does what they are suppose to there is no issue. If there is an object on the track that can be seen and or the timing tower is notified about the course will be held and a full sweep will be done. Also Keith usually does a full sweep every 2 hours as a precaution. I know it doesn't make what happened in your case any better but I am just trying to reassure you that the ECTA does everything in their power to try and keep you safe. You are all Family!!!!
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Sorry about your scare Ed, and missing the hat by a RCH.
I've been to many Maxton meets and most of the Ohio meets, and track safety has always been a high priority. I'm guessing this incident was just a freak combination of unlikely events. Keith getting a bit pissy when confronted? Not so unlikely :-D
I wonder who lost a front fender and kept going? Did they not realize?
cheers,
Dean
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I would pin the blame on whoever lost the fender. Not sure how you miss that happening but I am not a bike guy either. Was the lost fender ever reported by the rider/team who lost it?
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I would pin the blame on whoever lost the fender. Not sure how you miss that happening but I am not a bike guy either. Was the lost fender ever reported by the rider/team who lost it?
I would have to believe that any one chunking a scooter fender at any speed, let alone one coming off of a busa at typical busa speed would have been noticed by the rider of said busa, at least one of the folks in the timing tower, and the one or two spectators that would have seen that thing doing somersaults down the track. All of these folks are blind and stupid, I DON"T THINK SO.
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So why didn't you stop on the course to shut the course down to make sure the next guy didn't have the same scare? Hand gestures while your driving by is not the proper way to communcate that the track should be shut down.
Sorry it happened to you but you made the same mistake as the guy that drop the part did.
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I went long and immediately began gesticulating to the course worker at the track end to shut down the track (yeah, in addition multiple throat slash gestures I’ll admit to doing the rider down head tap thing too). Confident that I’d gotten the message across I returned to the staging lanes and trailered the scoot at 4:01 P …….. our weekend was done.
Let's see you did not stop and speak english to the track worker? I quit reading minds and hand gestures with my second wife. Thanks for looking out for others safety as well as your own. Here is an example of the track safety, approx. 20 min. before my wifes run on sunday a liner lost a retaining pin, I'll guess about 2" long. The liner crew reported the wayward pin and racing was halted, the offending item located and removed. No one saw a fender, you sure it wasn't a bit of tire rubber on your visor that blew off after you noticed it.
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So why didn't you stop on the course to shut the course down to make sure the next guy didn't have the same scare? Hand gestures while your driving by is not the proper way to communcate that the track should be shut down.
Sorry it happened to you but you made the same mistake as the guy that drop the part did.
Hadn't thought about it that way. Very true.
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.......... maybe a quick mention of this obviously traumatic event when you picked up your less than satisfactory timing slip ........ maybe ..... ?
.......... just sayin' ......................
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Assuming you are describing things as they happened:
The racer that dropped the fender did not inspect the fender, screws and mounting points prior to attempting to race.
The technical inspector failed to notice loose screws, broken mounts etc.
The rider lost the fender and didn't turn out.
The safety crew didn't see it.
You saw it and didn't turn out.
Sure takes a lot of fails to create a safety incident, doesn't it?
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Having worked the timing tower many times I can assure you that the track is scanned before each run down the track. I'm not saying that it wasn't missed that time but you would be very surprised how hard it is to see even the biggest objects. Spend some time in the tower Joe would love your company. The rule is if something comes off of your vehicle you are suppose to stop on the course in shut down and NOT continue to the shut down worker. It seems no matter how many times you tell people this they still continue off the course get off/out of their vehicle and walk over to the shut down worker. The problem with that is once the vehicle gets off of the taxi way and on to the return road the next racer is given the go ahead. There is no communication between shut down and the tower unless an emergency arises. The tower controls the whole course. The reason for this is to save time to get the racers more runs. If everyone does what they are suppose to there is no issue. If there is an object on the track that can be seen and or the timing tower is notified about the course will be held and a full sweep will be done. Also Keith usually does a full sweep every 2 hours as a precaution. I know it doesn't make what happened in your case any better but I am just trying to reassure you that the ECTA does everything in their power to try and keep you safe. You are all Family!!!!
Productive post Mike. The tyros should benefit from your description.
I agree, stopping on the course is the first/best method of getting the requisite attention and I did that, perpendicular to the travel path, so as to leave no question about my intent. I always go long (with some good pace on, the extra cooling air is good for motor cool down) even though Wilmington is not a problem for early turn-off. That's how I'm well aware that there's a course worker there with a radio. My gesturing was clearly adequate as I observed the course worker stand up, peer at me, nod affirmatively and speak into his radio.
Problem here is that reacting in this manner was not addressed during the riders/drivers meeting so the unknowing would not have had a clue regarding the appropriate conduct. I'm giving the guy that ran ahead of me and shed the fender the benefit of the doubt (although I think good ole common sense should have dictated a better response to the issue).
You mention "rule" ......... rules for this sort of conduct would be good, pass them about at Rookie Orientation as well as rider/driver meetings, otherwise they aren’t rules and in any event don’t do a whit worth of good if they’re not well administered. Perhaps I should have added that to my Suggestions …..
I know that ECTA may be attempting to “do everything in their power to try and keep” us safe, my point is that they’re falling somewhat short of the mark. This is fundamental stuff we’re talking here.
I do appreciate the insights though …..
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Sorry about your scare Ed, and missing the hat by a RCH.
I've been to many Maxton meets and most of the Ohio meets, and track safety has always been a high priority. I'm guessing this incident was just a freak combination of unlikely events. Keith getting a bit pissy when confronted? Not so unlikely :-D
I wonder who lost a front fender and kept going? Did they not realize?
cheers,
Dean
Hey Dean ...... good to hear.
Yeah, it's that freaky stuff that gets my attention ....... all the "normal" stuff is in the forefront and has been dealt with.
Run log would reveal who ... but I'm not on about him. Keith knows, says he motored alla way back to Registration and reported "Not sure but I might have lost something out there" ....... DOH! Curious how a Busa fender could depart though, even sans hardware, given it's shape and what all. Again, the freaky stuff ..... two of them combined seem to be the cause of many disasters.
BTW; Keith recovered the fender after I shut down the course and forced the "sweep".
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I would pin the blame on whoever lost the fender. Not sure how you miss that happening but I am not a bike guy either. Was the lost fender ever reported by the rider/team who lost it?
I don't think so ....... stuff seems to be capable of departing most anything most anytime ....... been the culprit meself and I'm meticulous about prep.
See above reply ...... Keith knows but I was/am not interested ...... well perhaps not beyond a little briefing regarding immediate reporting.
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I would pin the blame on whoever lost the fender. Not sure how you miss that happening but I am not a bike guy either. Was the lost fender ever reported by the rider/team who lost it?
I would have to believe that any one chunking a scooter fender at any speed, let alone one coming off of a busa at typical busa speed would have been noticed by the rider of said busa, at least one of the folks in the timing tower, and the one or two spectators that would have seen that thing doing somersaults down the track. All of these folks are blind and stupid, I DON"T THINK SO.
Errrrmm ..... does that "I DON"T THINK SO" address my veracity ?
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So why didn't you stop on the course to shut the course down to make sure the next guy didn't have the same scare? Hand gestures while your driving by is not the proper way to communcate that the track should be shut down.
Sorry it happened to you but you made the same mistake as the guy that drop the part did.
No, you're inserting "Hand gestures while your driving by" into my remarks. Read above. I clearly did successfully communicate the issue, got the track shut down and the fender was recovered by Keith ....
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I went long and immediately began gesticulating to the course worker at the track end to shut down the track (yeah, in addition multiple throat slash gestures I’ll admit to doing the rider down head tap thing too). Confident that I’d gotten the message across I returned to the staging lanes and trailered the scoot at 4:01 P …….. our weekend was done.
Let's see you did not stop and speak english to the track worker? I quit reading minds and hand gestures with my second wife. Thanks for looking out for others safety as well as your own. Here is an example of the track safety, approx. 20 min. before my wifes run on sunday a liner lost a retaining pin, I'll guess about 2" long. The liner crew reported the wayward pin and racing was halted, the offending item located and removed. No one saw a fender, you sure it wasn't a bit of tire rubber on your visor that blew off after you noticed it.
You've been listening to your breakfast cereal haven't you?
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.......... maybe a quick mention of this obviously traumatic event when you picked up your less than satisfactory timing slip ........ maybe ..... ?
.......... just sayin' ......................
No point, I'd already initiated a course shut-down, sweep and fender recovery ......
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Assuming you are describing things as they happened:
The racer that dropped the fender did not inspect the fender, screws and mounting points prior to attempting to race.
The technical inspector failed to notice loose screws, broken mounts etc.
The rider lost the fender and didn't turn out.
The safety crew didn't see it.
You saw it and didn't turn out.
Sure takes a lot of fails to create a safety incident, doesn't it?
Yes perhaps a lot of fails ........ but it's not as easy as jumping to unfounded conclusions.
I don't think one should "turn out" in this sort of instance (discovering FOD on track). The appropriate response is to assure a course shut down prior to the ECTA folks sending another potential victim down track ....... and your comprehensive reading of the preceding posts will reveal that I did so.
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I went long and immediately began gesticulating to the course worker at the track end to shut down the track (yeah, in addition multiple throat slash gestures I’ll admit to doing the rider down head tap thing too). Confident that I’d gotten the message across I returned to the staging lanes and trailered the scoot at 4:01 P …….. our weekend was done.
Let's see you did not stop and speak english to the track worker? I quit reading minds and hand gestures with my second wife. Thanks for looking out for others safety as well as your own. Here is an example of the track safety, approx. 20 min. before my wifes run on sunday a liner lost a retaining pin, I'll guess about 2" long. The liner crew reported the wayward pin and racing was halted, the offending item located and removed. No one saw a fender, you sure it wasn't a bit of tire rubber on your visor that blew off after you noticed it.
You've been listening to your breakfast cereal haven't you?
Why yes I have as it does not "gesticulate" and "throat slash". then assume that the individual understood you. While the course was shut down and the offending part removed, you make this whole episode sound as though it is a matter of course and standard operating proceedure for the ECTA. it is not. And yes, it tends to piss me off when someone has an isolated issue and decides to air it out here instead of professionally communicating with the approriate management of the ECTA. I'm sorry you had a bad expieriance and glad you and your equipment were not harmed. Have a nice day.
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Much clearer now.
Your original post did not indicate that your gestures were actually effective in getting the course shut down and the piece had actually been recovered.
I read that you assumed your gestures were interpreted, you went straight to your trailer and when you talked to KEith TUrk, he didn't care about your story, (very hard to believe).
I am among the enlightened.
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So someone on a bike losses part of a fender and never notifies anyone about the missing item. Seems I recall during the driver meeting this was talked about. Calling your experience Lame course safety is nonsense. The Lame part is the individual who lost the part and didn't think it was of any safety concern to stop the runs until the part was found. :?
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So someone on a bike losses part of a fender and never notifies anyone about the missing item. Seems I recall during the driver meeting this was talked about. Calling your experience Lame course safety is nonsense. The Lame part is the individual who lost the part and didn't think it was of any safety concern to stop the runs until the part was found. :?
I agree ........ you're spot on regarding the source of the issue. Even a hint of dropping a part on the big-end of a mile track should be enough to set off mental alarms in any reasonable individual and generate concern for the well being of fellow competitors. Not initiating the proper actions immediately after having done so is clearly the concern at this point.
Since "we" can't/don't explore the ability and/or knowledge of the competitors prior to their involvement I'm putting it down to inadequate pre-race briefing. While this experience leaves me with some doubts in this regard, I went into Wilmington (and Maxton) with a level of confidence that the organization was well and truly concerned with (physical) track safety and that my back was covered. True it may be that "they" are concerned, the actual conditions on the ground leave something to be desired.
One can insert a lot of "ifs" and "may-bes" but bottom line is there was a big ole ugly chunk of motorcycle lying out in plain sight on that course when I got waved off. Perhaps that is not so much of a concern for car-guys, but it's a big deal for scoot riders.
Point is there should be way better (more focused and comprehensive) pre-run briefings for us end users coupled (apparently) with better course scanning during/between runs.
Yeah, yeah, I know the argument can be made for "hundreds of runs without incident", etc., etc., but that success rate merely meets the base standard(s) of course safety .......... it's this fail-rate that results in those "unfortunate" fatalities. And make no mistake, this speaks to a failure in a critical component of event safety.
I'm not all that bent about the guy dropping the part, nor not reacting in what should be considered the proper manner ........ dealing with that is up to the organization.
Seeing the incident result in change in how the organization educates competitors (learning from mistakes) and re-emphasizes the critical course scanning is a worthy goal though ......... and in the interim making folks aware that they could be faced with a similar issue can't hurt either.
My chat with Keith at the conclusion of this event certainly did not inspire confidence.
Gotta go ride my motersikel now .......
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So how many hours or minutes transpired before you spoke to Keith. From what I gather you spoke to no one and let the next and susequent drivers/riders to risk their well being and equipment????? Instead of bitching you should be profusely apologizing to every staff member, volunteer, participant etc. for being such a neglectful ECTA club member.
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So how many hours or minutes transpired before you spoke to Keith. From what I gather you spoke to no one and let the next and susequent drivers/riders to risk their well being and equipment????? Instead of bitching you should be profusely apologizing to every staff member, volunteer, participant etc. for being such a neglectful ECTA club member.
Oh no, wfojohn, you must reread all of his posts as he adds comments that were not in the original post and clears things up after the rant. This guy still believes that his gesturing was effective communication, why, he even communicates the color and location of the part. He is right, the ECTA should do a full coarse sweep between runs so that the safety is not lame, dude.
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A small story apropos this thread. My first year at Bonneville in 1979, not knowing much and having already blown up a motor, I had a driveshaft come out of my car (broke in the middle) coming off a qualifying run (did qualify). It took out the back of the motor, block plate, transmission, shaft of course, differential, the driveshaft tunnel with seat belt mounts etc but fortunately not my Acura that subsequently got seriously reamed for not telling the course workers that I had dropped parts on or near the track. (Having qualified we had to fix everything and be in line next morning for record runs. Won't bore with long story about what that took to accomplish but we did, motor wouldn't start as distributor had been bumped while in back of truck going to SLC for welding and parts, but that fixed and later requalified and set new record). Point is, I got reamed for not reporting dropped parts.
Few years later, was sent on the long course. Somewhere in the run I came upon something in the track that I close to ran over. On reporting to the course worker that there was something in the track, was told.:" Oh, it was just a drag chute, no biggie you can dodge around it." Well, in a streamliner at 250+, I dang sure couldn't identify it nor "dodge" around it.
I understand what Mr Eddish is talking about. I wasn't so happy about being sent on a course that was not clear. But also had been a guilty party previously. We all need to be vigilant and do our best to ensure the safety of all.
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Well, all I can say is, the track-orientation meetings that I've been in at Wilmington and Loring have been VERY thorough, and if I had seen a bike fender on either course, I would have pulled over to the side of the course (the "I'm not injured or on fire, but there's an issue that needs to be addressed" side of the course) and waited for track personnel to come to my car and physically ask me what was wrong. I mean, from what I can tell, the original poster not only didn't talk to anyone about the fender, he barely stopped! If he had stopped on the course and waited for track personnel to go to him, and then told them face to face that there was debris on the course, the course would have been closed and swept, and no other riders/drivers would have been sent down. That's exactly why you stop ON the course--so track personnel know without a doubt that racing should be halted...
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Joe & Keith do a darn good drivers meeting each morning as well as an exceptional rookie orientation. Its up to the fellow competitors to attend these meetings, and abide by the info given. If some people don't think its important enough to attend, and learn the track rules and safety initiatives, it certainly is no fault of Keith or Joe. Find out who lost the fender and did not report it, and jump on his game to make it absolutely clear what he could have caused.
As per instructions at these drivers meetings, if you are not hurt or on fire, you stop on the course--so track personnel know without a doubt that racing should be halted...
The Wilmington Ohio Mile event is as safe as it gets for the LSR community. Hats off to Joe - Keith, and all their dedicated Volunteers.
Now - Its time to start wrenching for next year. :cheers:
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I am not a rookie and I still go to rookie orientations to see if there is anything new and or just to pester the shat out of Keith Turk. The rule of stopping on the right side of the course for a non life threatening event is spoken in both the rookie orientation and every single drivers meeting. I have been racing since 05 and I'll put a 100.00 on it that its communicated every single event.
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add the $.02 if eddish would have stopped and advised, most likely he would have been put back at the head of the line for a do over on the pass also.
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add the $.02 if eddish would have stopped and advised, most likely he would have been put back at the head of the line for a do over on the pass also.
Ding Ding Ding.... I was waiting to see who else actually pays attention in the drivers meetings. You win a free Diet coke. See Keith Turk to claim your prize!!!!!! :cheers:
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When I read this I had some thoughts but waited for the thread to expand to see where it was going.
My experience with Joe, Keith and the ECTA folks is they run a very safe event. Now that experience has been at Maxton not Wilmington.
I have two comments, first it is not what you said but how you said it that bothers me. To claim "lame course safety" and then throw a question mark in at the end to some how make it acceptable is "lame." The procedure is the rider/driver each have responsibility to report on any course issues from their vehicle or others. There is a procedure ECTA uses and that is to stop on course. So it seems to me there is an equal amount of "Lameness" in a competitor getting angry and barking something through a helmet on a fly by. When he was obligated to follow ECTA procedure and stop on course or at least adequately communicate a problem to ECTA officials. So you made your point that you are upset because there was something on the track but you also made it clear you failed to do your part by following procedure. Both issues are of equal importance the first for your safety and the second for the rider/driver that followed you.
Second and a very important second point, most of the ECTA staff are volunteers who do a fine job of managing a venue for all of us to race. You can count the LSR venues on one hand. There are not many people like Joe and Keith out there willing to take on the work and liability of running a land speed event. I am sure they welcome constructive criticism and suggestions to improve. But nobody likes to be attacked with worlds like "Lame" or innuendo's of carelessness. Let's be thankful for all of the people at ECTA, SCTA and others that work so hard to give us places to feed our need for speed. Let's work on ways to improve while always remembering that Joe and Keith, their wives and volunteers don't have to put on Land Speed Events.
My 2 cents.
BR
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A small story apropos this thread. My first year at Bonneville in 1979, not knowing much and having already blown up a motor, I had a driveshaft come out of my car (broke in the middle) coming off a qualifying run (did qualify). It took out the back of the motor, block plate, transmission, shaft of course, differential, the driveshaft tunnel with seat belt mounts etc but fortunately not my Acura that subsequently got seriously reamed for not telling the course workers that I had dropped parts on or near the track. (Having qualified we had to fix everything and be in line next morning for record runs. Won't bore with long story about what that took to accomplish but we did, motor wouldn't start as distributor had been bumped while in back of truck going to SLC for welding and parts, but that fixed and later requalified and set new record). Point is, I got reamed for not reporting dropped parts.
Few years later, was sent on the long course. Somewhere in the run I came upon something in the track that I close to ran over. On reporting to the course worker that there was something in the track, was told.:" Oh, it was just a drag chute, no biggie you can dodge around it." Well, in a streamliner at 250+, I dang sure couldn't identify it nor "dodge" around it.
I understand what Mr Eddish is talking about. I wasn't so happy about being sent on a course that was not clear. But also had been a guilty party previously. We all need to be vigilant and do our best to ensure the safety of all.
I hear that !
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My nose IS long but I can't see 3/4 of a mile with a binocular (the old heat wave thing)..If you could have made short shutdown and spoken with the shutdown crew, the track would have been made safe for the next rider/driver. Is cooling your engine more important than avoiding the dangerous situation you discovered? The track is not released until a vehicle is safely past shutdown. If you had stopped in long shutdown, the track would have been held as well. Sir, you chose to leave an unsafe track open, not the folks getting you out there. To suggest that Tech may have had some culpability in this situation - no can know what work may have been done on a vehicle after inspection.
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SCTA has a patrol steward every 1/10 mile on both sides of the dry lake course. I understand as we have 11 clubs that get the assignment each month. I also understand that ECTA has a heck of a lot less volunteers and no clubs to match this. However there has to be away to add a few people with a radio to let the starter and staff there is debris on the course. Think about Bonneville with 4 courses and 8 miles of length. It's still up the driver and riders to check the vehicles and notify a course worker asap.
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add the $.02 if eddish would have stopped and advised, most likely he would have been put back at the head of the line for a do over on the pass also.
Thank you, I was wondering about that it being a record run and all.
Don
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When I read this I had some thoughts but waited for the thread to expand to see where it was going.
My experience with Joe, Keith and the ECTA folks is they run a very safe event. Now that experience has been at Maxton not Wilmington.
I have two comments, first it is not what you said but how you said it that bothers me. To claim "lame course safety" and then throw a question mark in at the end to some how make it acceptable is "lame." The procedure is the rider/driver each have responsibility to report on any course issues from their vehicle or others. There is a procedure ECTA uses and that is to stop on course. So it seems to me there is an equal amount of "Lameness" in a competitor getting angry and barking something through a helmet on a fly by. When he was obligated to follow ECTA procedure and stop on course or at least adequately communicate a problem to ECTA officials. So you made your point that you are upset because there was something on the track but you also made it clear you failed to do your part by following procedure. Both issues are of equal importance the first for your safety and the second for the rider/driver that followed you.
Second and a very important second point, most of the ECTA staff are volunteers who do a fine job of managing a venue for all of us to race. You can count the LSR venues on one hand. There are not many people like Joe and Keith out there willing to take on the work and liability of running a land speed event. I am sure they welcome constructive criticism and suggestions to improve. But nobody likes to be attacked with worlds like "Lame" or innuendo's of carelessness. Let's be thankful for all of the people at ECTA, SCTA and others that work so hard to give us places to feed our need for speed. Let's work on ways to improve while always remembering that Joe and Keith, their wives and volunteers don't have to put on Land Speed Events.
My 2 cents.
BR
Okay .........
Comment one; Go back and read. "Shut down" is part of the course. Stopping, sideways to the path of travel - in the middle of the shut down/course sends a message in itself. It makes no matter how I communicated to the course worker - only that he got the message and the course was closed/swept and the fender recovered !
Comment B; You're correct, there aren't many LSR events out there to choose from but you seem to suggest that competitors accept what is offered and turn a blind eye to safety issues because of that?
Don't be so sure that "constructive criticism and suggestions to improve" are welcome ......... I reported Keith's attitude/response when I brought this issue to his attention immediately after it occurred and it was not warm and fuzzy ...... he was not even interested in having the conversation. That sort of attitude, in that circumstance, led to the thread that you're (selectively) reading. Anybody can make a mistake but it's important (in light of the down-side associated with one like this) that it be used as a tool to improve, and there was no indication that was the case.
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Eddish,
I do NOT know who you are as you have chosen to use a stage name. You have tried your case on this forum and have heard from a lot of veteran racers who disagree with your method of handling the issue. If you really care about safety, why don't you give ME a call at my shop, 302.378.3013est between 9 am and 5 pm.
Joe Timney
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add the $.02 if eddish would have stopped and advised, most likely he would have been put back at the head of the line for a do over on the pass also.
Could be Mike but the thread is about course safety or perhaps more accurately the deficiency in course safety.
In any event I was not of a mind to go back out after that experience ....... you do understand significantly PO'd ..... si? The importance of that run only got mention here (as a small and insignificant component of the occurrence) in order to set forth the evolution of the event. Hardly seems worth having done so now in light of the apparent lack of comprehension.
I've been disappointed before and likely will be again but it hardly warrants starting a thread over that sort of thing, particularly if it was my of my causing ....... but neither is the case here.
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SCTA has a patrol steward every 1/10 mile on both sides of the dry lake course. I understand as we have 11 clubs that get the assignment each month. I also understand that ECTA has a heck of a lot less volunteers and no clubs to match this. However there has to be away to add a few people with a radio to let the starter and staff there is debris on the course. Think about Bonneville with 4 courses and 8 miles of length. It's still up the driver and riders to check the vehicles and notify a course worker asap.
Valid point Glen and I can understand the need at long course events. I agree that ECTA cannot rise to that level and actually don't think it's necessary. All in all I feel that ECTA has a pretty decent arrangement for monitoring the course (particularly at Wilmington). After all, missing the fender lying out there aside, the process worked well enough. The long turn-out course worker "got" the message, the course was shut down and eventually cleared prior to sending the next vehicle ........ not bad.
This fiasco, however, speaks to a deficiency (in spotting the fender) and equally important (at least in my eyes) a deficiency in how it was handled.
All said and done I came away with the impression that I would rolling the dice (regarding a "safe" course) whenever I made a pass and there was no indication of real concern about improving the situation.
Good - bad, fair or not that's how I felt about the situation as things evolved ..... and I think that I shared the facts here accurately.
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Given the demeanor in which you've taken here,
I'm guessing that Keith got the same attitude at
the track from you... No wonder why/if he brushed
your comments off. The board takes safety, course
and driver, as priority number 1. We racers do, too.
I'm positive had you stopped or slowed down, then
notified someone in a calm demeanor, you would
have been sent to the front again for another run
post-course sweep. Attitude has a lot to do with
results, Eddish... And yours begs for nothing good.
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Good Lord people...........the guy has a valid point about track safety with a fender out there in the middle that nobody saw and cleared off the race` course...............and all you people are doing is ragging on him and making it all his fault................Get real and get off his back...............
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If you are racing long enough you're going to see something that ain't safe in some manner or another.
Example, you saw a fender on the course. I ran past a cow at over 200 standing in the middle of other lane at the finish line ( late 70's ). A friend of mine on a bike went down on the salt and had another bike run right past him on the course (early 90's). I could sit here and make list as long as my arm but, point is it's racing and "things" happen.
How these things are handled makes the big difference. Safety is not just up to somebody else, racing ain't some cradle to grave government program, everyone involved has to take responsibility for keeping things safe.
When people start thinking safety is someone else's problem, then the whole concept of safety fails. So if you see something that is not safe, it is up to you to take whatever action necessary to fix the problem, and if you don't, the safety issue is your fault, not someone else.
Rouse
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Ed -- PM sent.
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Gentlemen, a fender on the course IS a safety issue! The location and position from the tower did not make it visual to me. The track crown hid some of the fender. The visibility over the crown is why we purchased the tall timing trailer. I didn't see the fender until Keith picked it up. I DID NOT see it come off the bike. I watch every run from the time the vehicle comes over the top of the hill until it clears shut down and have for 16 years...every meet! Anyone who relieves me in the tower is instructed to do the same thing.
As you can see, when I first saw this post, I asked EDISH to give me a call so I could interview him on the series of events that happened so we can plan what could be done to eliminate this in the future.
In my humble opinion, RANTING is not a good form of communicating.
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Gentlemen, a fender on the course IS a safety issue! The location and position from the tower did not make it visual to me. The track crown hid some of the fender. The visibility over the crown is why we purchased the tall timing trailer. I didn't see the fender until Keith picked it up. I DID NOT see it come off the bike. I watch every run from the time the vehicle comes over the top of the hill until it clears shut down and have for 16 years...every meet! Anyone who relieves me in the tower is instructed to do the same thing.
As you can see, when I first saw this post, I asked EDISH to give me a call so I could interview him on the series of events that happened so we can plan what could be done to eliminate this in the future.
In my humble opinion, RANTING is not a good form of communicating.
I agree with Joe here. The fact that EDISH didn't do the right thing when he noticed safety issue, he became the safety issue. Racers like that will end up getting someone else hurt because they think that safety is always somebody else's responsibility, not theirs.
There was clearly two irresponsible people involved here. The one that lost the fender, and EDISH for not properly notifying the coarse works in a timely manner.
I'd personally like to know if I was running behind either one of them, it seems they only lookout for themselves, and to hell with everyone running behind them.
Rouse
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I lost a front fender off my 'Busa at the last event. Has anybody seen it?
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Gentlemen, a fender on the course IS a safety issue! The location and position from the tower did not make it visual to me. The track crown hid some of the fender. The visibility over the crown is why we purchased the tall timing trailer. I didn't see the fender until Keith picked it up. I DID NOT see it come off the bike. I watch every run from the time the vehicle comes over the top of the hill until it clears shut down and have for 16 years...every meet! Anyone who relieves me in the tower is instructed to do the same thing.
As you can see, when I first saw this post, I asked EDISH to give me a call so I could interview him on the series of events that happened so we can plan what could be done to eliminate this in the future.
In my humble opinion, RANTING is not a good form of communicating.
Joe, well said.
Respect is the word I was thinking of.
I hope make the long trip north from FLA this spring. See you in 2014.
BR
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Eddish,
I do NOT know who you are as you have chosen to use a stage name. You have tried your case on this forum and have heard from a lot of veteran racers who disagree with your method of handling the issue. If you really care about safety, why don't you give ME a call at my shop, 302.378.3013est between 9 am and 5 pm.
Joe Timney
As I suggested several pages ago. Communicate with the management.
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Given the demeanor in which you've taken here,
I'm guessing that Keith got the same attitude at
the track from you... No wonder why/if he brushed
your comments off. The board takes safety, course
and driver, as priority number 1. We racers do, too.
I'm positive had you stopped or slowed down, then
notified someone in a calm demeanor, you would
have been sent to the front again for another run
post-course sweep. Attitude has a lot to do with
results, Eddish... And yours begs for nothing good.
Kinda skimmed all those posts that went before dincha ? Selective reading.
This sort of snarky, non-productive posting does not warrant more than that ...... you can crawl back in the hole now.
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Hadda long-ish and pretty productive chat with Joe T. yesterday afternoon.
Naturally we agreed that a fender on course is a hazard. Seems that there is a good bit of "crown" on the track at that point and even an obstacle such as a fender (if located on the far side of the course) may not be visible from the timing trailer.
Joe does not seem to have any problem with my method (nor timeliness) in reporting the hazard hence the fender was cleared before anyone else was sent down course.
So, this becomes an "incident" to be learned from. I'm thinking (and submitted for consideration) that a hatch, lawn chair and umbrella be provided for the roof of the timing trailer (yeah, that got a laugh) so perhaps all the "wags" out there should immediately send # 98 sun block to Joe c/o ECTA International Headquarters.
Tis a problem, and now is recognized as such. Perhaps somewhere along the line some "newbie" will read and heed. That would make the effort worthwhile.
Snipers, gripers, trolls and the reading impaired can now retire to their caves and go back to sleep ........ to the remainder of ya'll; Thanks for your attention/support and may all your trips be round.
Eddish
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Eddish
Your last post is exactly why your words don't get through to people. It totally discredits your opinion when you attack people.
I will repeat from my earlier post. It is not what you say but how you say it that establishes useful communication. This is my last response to you.
Good luck with your racing.
BR
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Eddish
Your last post is exactly why your words don't get through to people. It totally discredits your opinion when you attack people.
I will repeat from my earlier post. It is not what you say but how you say it that establishes useful communication. This is my last response to you.
Good luck with your racing.
BR
BR said it right, There are knot heads like that in every crowd, thankfully, fewer of them in racing. Maybe Eddish can go find a Play Station now, No fenders there.
Rouse
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This thread got me thinking about Maxton...it must of been hard to scan that track between runs. With two doglegs, weeds, large cracks and asphalt patches it must have been hard to notice things laying on that track.
BR
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Eddish -
I’m glad you didn’t get hurt on your run. Kudos for shutting down the track and preventing anybody else from getting hurt.
Here’s where you got off on the wrong foot with many of us.
Your tone is condescending.
To have titled this thread “Lame Course Safety?” is an implied affront to the ECTA. I can conclude two things from such a thread title – neither of which is absolute other than analogies to past dealings I’ve had with other folks.
A. You were looking for an argument – and by referring to those who question your position as “Snipers, gripers, trolls and the reading impaired” and reporting a “pretty productive chat with Joe T.”, one could conclude a degree of self righteousness that only winning an argument will quench.
- OR -
B. Your motives are genuine, and you simply have no tact with internet communications.
Some of us will give you the benefit of the doubt.
Chris Conrad
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Perhaps a observer along the other side of the course so debris could be seen beyond the crown would help. Rotate a couple of people and furnish them with a radio to the tower and start line. Just a thought from someone that has years of experience with course control. :cheers:
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Perhaps a observer along the other side of the course so debris could be seen beyond the crown would help. Rotate a couple of people and furnish them with a radio to the tower and start line. Just a thought from someone that has years of experience with course control. :cheers:
Wise Counsel.
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Perhaps a observer along the other side of the course so debris could be seen beyond the crown would help. Rotate a couple of people and furnish them with a radio to the tower and start line. Just a thought from someone that has years of experience with course control. :cheers:
And volunteers for the job please raise their hand.....
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Kinda skimmed all those posts that went before dincha ? Selective reading.
This sort of snarky, non-productive posting does not warrant more than that ...... you can crawl back in the hole now.
Eddish
Your last post is exactly why your words don't get through to people. It totally discredits your opinion when you attack people.
It is not what you say but how you say it that establishes useful communication. This is my last response to you.
BR
My exact sentiments, BR... I volunteered at Maxton FAR more than I raced, and locating / picking up debris from the course was an integral
part of my job... I understand where Eddish is coming from (safety), but his tone lacks tact to the point of defensiveness. Criticism of any
kind can be a welcome and helpful addition to our community, but being constructive instead of aggressive lays the groundwork to better
resolutions. I couldn't care less should someone attack me, but the fact is, these arguments based solely on emotion wastes everyone's
time who are trying to reach the aforementioned resolution. I'm done with this thread, as well. I wish us ALL safe racing.
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Kinda skimmed all those posts that went before dincha ? Selective reading.
This sort of snarky, non-productive posting does not warrant more than that ...... you can crawl back in the hole now.
Eddish
Your last post is exactly why your words don't get through to people. It totally discredits your opinion when you attack people.
It is not what you say but how you say it that establishes useful communication. This is my last response to you.
BR
My exact sentiments, BR... I volunteered at Maxton FAR more than I raced, and locating / picking up debris from the course was an integral
part of my job... I understand where Eddish is coming from (safety), but his tone lacks tact to the point of defensiveness. Criticism of any
kind can be a welcome and helpful addition to our community, but being constructive instead of aggressive lays the groundwork to better
resolutions. I couldn't care less should someone attack me, but the fact is, these arguments based solely on emotion wastes everyone's
time who are trying to reach the aforementioned resolution. I'm done with this thread, as well. I wish us ALL safe racing.
Thank for your volunteerism at Maxton. I was the beneficiary of your efforts with a few records there.
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Well folks, we can all go back to our day jobs now...Eddish called me yesterday afternoon. We were able to work out his issues in a reasonable fashion. Thank you for all playing along!
Joe
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Well folks, we can all go back to our day jobs now...Eddish called me yesterday afternoon. We were able to work out his issues in a reasonable fashion. Thank you for all playing along!
Joe
Joe there is at least another 4 pages to go here!!! LOL
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Dang, it was just getting fun. Oh well, there wil be more to come I'm sure.
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Joe has it handled and I think this link has served it's purpose. Why not try to work with ECTA and even volunteer for something at one of the events.The newbys have a lot to learn and not yelling at a official is a good start.
Joe thanks for the update. :cheers:
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I know the issue is handled, but I feel like I needed to post this. As an old timer that has raced for over 40 years in about every orginization there is I have an opinion. I was keeping it to myself, but decided to say that from what I have seen the ECTA runs as safe of an event as there is. Was there an issue with a fender being on course, ASOLUTELY. Was the way the course officials notified correct, while it may have worked it wasn't what we are told in every riders meeting. If you are all right, pull to the right, unless you are leaking oil. Did the rider loosing the fender act correctly, ABSOLUTELY NOT. Again pull to the right. I gone down in oil at Pocono while roadracing. The track corner workers didn't see it. I never thought WERA didn't care about safety. I saw the Moose at the edge of the track in Loring and didn't call the track unsafe. I have hit rain on the big end at Maxton while it was dry at the start. Again it was not due to safety being ignored. The rain started after I left the line. I know how Joe feels about rider/driver safety. Did you notice the lights at the traps to make sure you knew where you were. No more running long in mind. While your issue was a BIG DEAL to all of us and it will I'm sure be something that will be looked at more. The ECTA runs as safe of an event as you will find. Try working it as a volunteer and you will get to see how much safety is pushed. Happy you didn't hit the fender. Hope you will be back for the 2 club run. I speak for no one but myself and this is just my opinion.
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Do you suppose, that part of the cause of an incident like this, (unreported of losing parts on the course) just might be a result of a mind set of running laps.
We run RACING cars and bikes. They require maintenance that is unlike street machines. Even production machines have unusual things happen when run to the max. They need to be looked at and touched between runs, and I believe a cursory inspection while in line for the next run just doesn't do it. I've been pretty much lurking around here and seeing that making as many runs as possible is the "main objective" of many racers.
Is it "Just possible" that slowing down a little and taking care of our equipment, and just modifying our "mind set" a little bit would be prudent?
The guy that lost the fender was guilty of not paying attention to his machine, and the guy that sort of reported it was in too much of a hurry to stop.
Safety is the responsibility of every driver/rider and unless we rethink our off track actions these type of things will happen. Regardless of how safety conscious Joe, Keith and the rest of the staff/volunteers are.
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Going to make this post before my "intro" post. I havent read through this whole 5 pages but I will soon.
To the OP, it was my front fender that came off. I felt a bobble at the 1/2 mile, unloaded and loaded the chassis and it went away. I had no clue til I was beyond the 1 mile traps that something had gone wrong. IMMEDIATELY after going through the traps and rolling out of the throttle I had an issue... The front tire, best we can figure had pulled away from the bead and dumped all the air somewhere around the 1/2 mile, started rubbing the front fender, and quite literally TORN it from the 6 mounting bolts(it may have shaken one out). I came across Keith and he asked if I was the one looking for a fender, which was asked before I even realized it was off the bike.
I offer my most sincere apology for causing a problem with your pass, but I firmly believe the rear of the bike never made contact with the front fender, so I had no clue it was an issue during the pass.
I'll get through the remainder of the posts and try to catch up to this and get an intro post up as well.
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Welcome to the forum.I can see how you may have been distracted by all that went wrong and didn't even think about the fender at first. Hopefully you won't experience that again but after reading all of this I expect you will go ahead and pull over and take stock of the damage right away. In any case, welcome and don't be a stranger. :cheers:
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Rick - your post #64 says it all. " They need to be looked at and touched between runs, and I believe a cursory inspection while in line for the next run just doesn't do it. I've been pretty much lurking around here and seeing that making as many runs as possible is the "main objective" of many racers."
Our team is somewhat surprised that racers come out and the first thing they do off the trailer is start wrenching. Our Team has the agenda of getting to a venue ready to race right off the trailer. Then after our run, a complete going over takes place. Three sets of eyes going around the bike looking, feely/touchy all nuts & bolts. Check fluids & tire pressure - then get back in line and wait. Its really a rather simple routine once into it. It may take away time from sitting in line, but sometimes you find something that just may make your next pass - faster. :-D
Its not how many runs you make - its the quality and learning of each run that counts in my book. :cheers:
Some of all of this may be the times of today. Many of the youngins go buy a sport bike and just want to go fast. I think they have not yet learned the intimacy of building your machine and knowing every single nut & bolt on it. I would suggest no mater what class the sport guys like, they should disassemble - in stages their machines, put it back together, and really start to get to know it.
Our Team is looking forward to LTA, the Ohio Mile, and absolutely the Salt next year - I have already started wrenching -
Keep it fun !
Jimbo
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Personally I don't see the need to look at a vehicle before every run. It is the rider/driver that must know what he has before he goes down the course. I come to the track ready to race, but adjust to weather conditions with gear changes on about every run. If you run a high reving inline 4 motorcycle in the N/A class and don't, you will never set many records. The are very condition sensitive. As a former roadracer we were teched on Saturday morning and raced multiple races over the entire weekend. There was no issue with pieces flying off while you were racing and we had 40+ on the track at one time. There have been very few times when pieces have come off in Ohio. While we all would agree one time is to many, we are racing and straining parts. Pieces that look fine do break. It is how we handle it when it happens. Just my opinion.
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Kind of like what Roadracer said, I think that any car or bike prepped to race should be able to turn laps with no issues. We only run one mile at a time where in road racing it's miles and miles on end, with turns and lot's of braking.
Except for unforseeable mechanical failures that no sort of inspection can uncover, I think everyone should be able to run laps as long as their vehicle is prepped well. This is not to say that you should ignore your vehicle in between runs but I feel that there is most definitely time in between runs for a pretty solid inspection and even a complete prep.
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I get what your sayin Roadracer about the inline 4's - But being a Harley guy all my life, we learn real quick that they vibrate and act quite a bit different then the sport bikes. Stuff comes loose on that ole 50 year technology. Remember the saying , when you ride with a bunch of Harleys, one guy rides the sweep keepin an eye open for fallen parts. :-D
We just think its a good idea to give it a good look over after running, even if its just a wfo mile like Ohio.
Old habits are hard to break sometimes. :roll:
Jimbo
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Uncle Jimbo. we race a car and check between runs as well. :cheers:
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But being a Harley guy all my life, we learn real quick that they vibrate and act quite a bit different then the sport bikes. Stuff comes loose on that ole 50 year technology. Remember the saying , when you ride with a bunch of Harleys, one guy rides the sweep keepin an eye open for fallen parts. :-D
Jimbo
Harley parts I've had to miss while on a run,
A chain
Header pipe
4x4 block of pine (sidestand chock)
Air cleaners
Licence plates, tail lights
3" primary belts
Various fasteners and brackets (complete or portions of same)
Battery covers
Cartons of beer cans (not HD, but part of the survival kit)
Tool wraps
Etc,,,,,,,
Tiny
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Reminded me of a Harley that deposited parts and rider at El Mirage in 2009 . . .
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,6174.0.html
I thought there was a picture there-in, but don't see it.
But it did have a comment from Super Kaz (who?).
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One of the things Nathan Stewart at Bonneville insisted we do after each run was get out and take a GOOD LOOK at the car before we towed back. If you lost something, we were instructed to get on the CB and contact the tower.
Because the pace of turning a vehicle around is slower at Bonneville, that certainly wasn't a problem - we weren't "lapping" at any point during our four days there. And while there is a pressure to "make hay while the sun shines", anybody who would infer a lame attitude toward safety within the ECTA management is picking a fight from an unjust and unfounded position, the incident sited, notwithstanding.
Because we are humans - involved in a human endeavor - working with machines of our own creation - absolute perfection will never be achieved. While an oversight such as this is unusual, unfortunate and needs to be addressed, to do so in such an egregious, anonymous and distasteful fashion is the action of a cowardly bully.
I still consider referring to this thread as "Lame Course Safety ?" offensive, and an affront to Joe, Keith and the gang at ECTA. Therefore, my response edit of the subject name.
Eddish has left his turd in the punch bowl and wisely left the party. The discussion has now turned civil and productive, rather than petty and accusatory.
I think the subject edit is appropriate
Chris Conrad
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Well said Chris. :-)
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I second that we'll said.
Chris
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Well said Chris - I would say a third vote here.
It's always encouraging to see constructive conversation between the LSR Community, the car guys and the bikers talking good common sense together.
Think positive, be positive, and positive things will happen. :cheers:
Jimbo
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Rick - your post #64 says it all. " ...Many of the youngins go buy a sport bike and just want to go fast. I think they have not yet learned the intimacy of building your machine and knowing every single nut & bolt on it. I would suggest no mater what class the sport guys like, they should disassemble - in stages their machines, put it back together, and really start to get to know it....
Carroll Smith said the only reason a race car came to you assembled was to improve the chances of getting all the parts to you. He insisted on a complete disassembly to the last bolt so everything was fitted, finished, torqued, etc properly.
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Good one Bucketlist - Carroll Smith and my mentor and Crew Chief Warner Riley must have gone to the same school. He has taught me the same thought process of inspecting everything, from top to bottom. All moving parts must be "happy" together, and every nut and bolt torqued to specs, and then checked again the day before leaving for a venue. Take nothing for granted.
It's made me a better shade tree mechanic - at least I like to think so. :-)
Jimbo
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Joe has it handled and I think this link has served it's purpose. Why not try to work with ECTA and even volunteer for something at one of the events.The newbys have a lot to learn and not yelling at a official is a good start.
Joe thanks for the update. :cheers:
I'm glad this thread jumped out at me . Safety is more important than feelings.
Anyway I am wondering if there are concerns on how close the speeding cars and bikes are to the timing tower, parked cars , spectators, at Wilmington.
It appears to me the distance is about half a racing lane and 300 feet of grass where the racers are at top speed.
I was kinda surprised ,but I didn't spend any time on google earth for perspective . I assume the organizers (whom I appreciate) know what can happen at speed and have a margin of safety.
Feel free to tell me how wrong I am to see this as a matter of concern.
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I'm glad this thread jumped out at me . Safety is more important than feelings.
Anyway I am wondering if there are concerns on how close the speeding cars and bikes are to the timing tower, parked cars , spectators, at Wilmington.
It appears to me the distance is about half a racing lane and 300 feet of grass where the racers are at top speed.
I was kinda surprised ,but I didn't spend any time on google earth for perspective . I assume the organizers (whom I appreciate) know what can happen at speed and have a margin of safety.
Feel free to tell me how wrong I am to see this as a matter of concern.
You're not wrong...but...racing is dangerous and I believe all of us know that and accept it. Part of the experience is being close to the race vehicles despite the potential danger.
Or we can spectate from such a distance it become a video game....My opinion of course.
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Welcome aboard! Be sure to sign up at the office (Introduce Yourself thread - top of the forum).
That’s a tough one to figure. Most race tracks have guard rails. Seeing as Wilmington is still used for aircraft, guardrails are out of the question.
Comparisons are somewhat valuable. With a 2 ½ foot guard rail and a snow fence, on the Moraine Sweep going into turn 5 at Road America, spectators are kept at a distance of about 50 ft. It would not be unusual for a car to be traveling that section of track at speeds similar to what one would expect at Wilmington.
Drag racing puts a spectator into similarly close proximity, albeit with more protections. Given the violent accelerations of a typical top fuel dragster, I don’t know that that is enough.
To my way of thinking, 300 feet seems prudent for paved LSR.
I think it’s a lot more likely to get hospitalized by a foul ball at Fenway than to be hit by an LSR car anywhere.
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Have you heard the one about sleeping dogs .... ? I recall something about leaving them alone.
LSR has been chugging merrily along, as is, since the beginning of the last century.
What we don't need are guardrails, catch fences, grandstands or a Budwieser hospitality tent.
There was an incident (minor) last year .... adjustments were made .... good enough.
If you're uncomfortable down at the big end, don't go there.
Vehicle safety is the absolute top priority with ECTA and all the other LSR organizations I've seen or been involved with.
In a society full of prying eyes and ears, and people who just like to cause trouble, let's take care of our own little tribe and not give them anything to bitch about.
The less said, the better.
Just sayin' ..........................
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FYI @ El Mirage the timing tower is 800 ft from trap lights.
The spectators are 200 ft behind the tower. At Bonneville the timing trailer is between two courses at 1000 ft to each course. All spectators are on the pit side of the #1 long course. They are different venues of course but over the years the separation has been moved a few times. The Airports have restrictions much different then the lakes and salt. I stated earlier that it be a advantage to have a couple of course stewards on the other side of the track to help the tower if something is seen on the course that's visible from the tower.
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LSR has been chugging merrily along, as is, since the beginning of the last century.
What we don't need are guardrails, catch fences, grandstands or a Budwieser hospitality tent.
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I have been in the Budwieser hospitality tent and I can tell you that one at Bonneville would be great.
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LSR has been chugging merrily along, as is, since the beginning of the last century.
What we don't need are guardrails, catch fences, grandstands or a Budwieser hospitality tent.
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I have been in the Budwieser hospitality tent and I can tell you that one at Bonneville would be great.
Budweiser does buy nice tents . . .
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I've been invited to the tent also ...
Thumbs up on the tent and the beer ...
thumbs down on the people in the tent who don't know and don't care what's going on outside the tent ...
but that all comes with the $$$ I guess ...
I think you all understood my original point ... :cheers:
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Trucketup - PlanB - I agree with your thoughts as well as Milwaukee's
"...racing is dangerous and I believe all of us know that and accept it. Part of the experience is being close to the race vehicles despite the potential danger.
Or we can spectate from such a distance it become a video game...."
Same goes for the sleeping dog.
Needless wringing of hands, and worrying about hypothetical what ifs at this point, doesn't fit in my book. Having been to Maxton, Wilmington, LTA, & the salt for nine years I have had no reservations about how each of those venues is run. Each has a great staff & a great Rookie Orientation, as well as the important morning Drivers Meetings. :cheers:
If everyone attended the Drivers/Riders meetings, paid attention, and then followed all procedures, this thread most likely would never have been started. :-o
Now as a closing for me - if somebody doesn't want to be close to the action, they can just set up a pit or spectate wherever they think its safe enough for them, the pit areas of all these venues have plenty of room.
Go fast - stop safe :-D
Jimbo
P.S S&S has a very nice "hospitality tent/trailer" also. I mean to tell ya - they put out the food and snacks. How do say pro bono ?
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More examples of danger and personality responsibility .....September meet early Sunday morning in the dark was two lines of race vehicles half a mile long.Roaring engines being warmed up,adjustments being made by flashlight,the smell of racing gas and alcohol, light less race vehicles maneuvering into line .There I am a retired electrical contractor warming up the engine on a bike I built from piles of parts with simple hand tools on our way to bumping up my class record. This was a high point in my life as a dog and I don't believe this experience exists at too many race tracks any longer.LSR,especially Wilmington is the last stand for amateur builders to race and spectators to see action up close. I wasn't the only guy excited by the chaos.... no one got run over that I know of....
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Here's my two cents worth about safety at Wilmington.
There is a small ditch, not far from the return road, that runs from 1/2 track to short shutdown.
At the June meet, Peter Calaguiro came through the lights on a 199 pass.
When he pulled the chute, it raised the rear up enough to cause him to go into a right hand powerslide.
He scrubbed off speed sliding through the grass and the ditch finally stopped him.
Here is the aftermath:
(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad318/GKABBT/Wilmington%2006082013/IMG_4778_zpsca90d3eb.jpg) (http://s947.photobucket.com/user/GKABBT/media/Wilmington%2006082013/IMG_4778_zpsca90d3eb.jpg.html)
In the above pic, you can see that there were many pits on the track side of the return road.
Joe and Keith worked with the Air Park and for the September meet the pits were changed.
The main pits are now located behind the registration trailer and this holds about 90% of the bikes and cars.
Only "long" trailers are now allowed on the ROAD side of the return road and NOTHING is allowed on the track side except Joe's timing stand.
As for me, this was a REALLY good move by the ECTA and the Air Park!
Hope this helps,
Gregg
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Also would like to say many thanks to Mr. Midget (Chris) for your input and for changing the title of this thread!
Gregg
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Amen -
Jimbo
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Rick - your post #64 says it all. " They need to be looked at and touched between runs, and I believe a cursory inspection while in line for the next run just doesn't do it. I've been pretty much lurking around here and seeing that making as many runs as possible is the "main objective" of many racers."
Our team is somewhat surprised that racers come out and the first thing they do off the trailer is start wrenching. Our Team has the agenda of getting to a venue ready to race right off the trailer. Then after our run, a complete going over takes place. Three sets of eyes going around the bike looking, feely/touchy all nuts & bolts. Check fluids & tire pressure - then get back in line and wait. Its really a rather simple routine once into it. It may take away time from sitting in line, but sometimes you find something that just may make your next pass - faster. :-D
Its not how many runs you make - its the quality and learning of each run that counts in my book. :cheers:
Some of all of this may be the times of today. Many of the youngins go buy a sport bike and just want to go fast. I think they have not yet learned the intimacy of building your machine and knowing every single nut & bolt on it. I would suggest no mater what class the sport guys like, they should disassemble - in stages their machines, put it back together, and really start to get to know it.
Our Team is looking forward to LTA, the Ohio Mile, and absolutely the Salt next year - I have already started wrenching -
Keep it fun !
Jimbo
Jimbo,
I agree with a lot of what you have posted but some of it is negative towards the sportbike crowd and not the case for everyone.
I have also noticed that many racers just come out and want to get as many passes as possible in without always doing it safely. Many come out unprepared and start making major changes at the track. I agree with you in that people need to come prepared and ready to race. Seems Friday (tech day), many are still assembling instead of showing up ready to tech right off the trailer and race!
Another problem is that depending on the event, sometimes there just isn't time. I agree that you should go over EVERYTHING and run your checklist between every pass. Unfortunately, I have watched many people just continue to "hot lap" without checking anything. The quicker they can get back in line, the better...has become the priority and it's not just sportbikes...it's BOTH bikes AND cars...
I started a post on FB asking about possibly a three day event to increase runs (and maybe reduce some of this)...Joe, Keith, etc. have already expressed that they just can't accommodate it at this time which I understand. Thank you again for everything you guys do so we can race! :cheers:
Point is people need to be accountable for their actions and make sure there junk is safe BEFORE getting in line. Maybe in the future a longer event would be something to help reduce this but it is still NO EXCUSE! You can always race another day and people need to realize it's not worth making a glory pass when things aren't 100%. Or maybe things were 100% and they just had a one time incident whichever the case.
Does that mean we should start requiring a STOP on the return road, walk around check before continuing down the return road for a ticket?
The other issue with the line I believe has already been talked about and is possibly being addressed.
Again, thank you Keith, Joe, Donna, Tonya, ECTA staff, etc.. :cheers:
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Got Busa - Nothing negative intended towards Sport bikes, some of my good friends ride them. Different strokes for different folks - that's all. :cheers:
Jimbo
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Got Busa, what is it on a ZX-6 or a ZX-10 that I can't check in line (without holding it up if it moves), that I can check by going to the pits. I park a pit vehicle in a legal parking place with whatever I may need while in line. I have made gear changes in line without holding the line up. I always look over my bikes in between runs. I make changes after most runs. I fail to see why I need to go to my pit to do it, if I don't hold up the line. I've seen cars on jack stands in line or vehicles unattended with a large gap in front of them. From my perspective there is ample time in the line to look over your vehicle, add fuel or oil, make gear changes or whatever as long as you are prepaired. Maybe you were never at Maxton on a Suday afternoon. That was when you could hot lap.
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I think the main point to keep in mind, is keep it safe.
If you see something, tell the right folks what you saw, sooner not later.
If something is broken on your vehicle, fix it right before you run again.
Safety check your vehicle between runs, that means end to end, top to bottom.
The course workers have their hands full, and are doing their best, racers have an obligation to point out things they see too.
So all the personalities, and offenses aside, if it ain't safe, don't run until it is.
Racing is dangerous enough when things are right, don't add to the danger by being neglectful, that goes for everyone involved.
Rouse