Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Frankie7799 on October 01, 2013, 12:49:14 PM
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Figure Ill throw this out there to pick youze guys brains. If one were wanting to build a naturally aspirated F size engine 2.016 to 3.014 L 123.00 to 183.99 cid, which would be the best route and the easiest way to make good power? Ive never dealt with engines of this size so I have no idea. I know you can take a SBC 350 and take 4 pistons and rods out of it to get within the parameters. What else is out there guys. Thanks in advance
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I have and still am looking at F engines for my lakester. I've mostly considered ones with good potential blown. With that in mind one of my first picks (and these are considering motors that are affordable) are:
First choice might be the Toyota JZ engines....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_JZ_engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_JZ_engine)
6 cylinders lots of main bearings and people are making big reliable HP with these engines. These were hard to find, but are now coming in from Japan as they are coming out of cars over there.
Since I'm kind of a Chevy guy one I'm also leaning towards is the baby to what Sparky has there and that is the I-4 GM used in the Colorado/Canyon pickups. He has the 6 cylinder that was used in the Trailblazer. The I-4 and I-5 are just shorter less cylinders of the Trailblazer 6. The 6 fits right in the top of the E motor class and the I-4 is right at the top of the F motor class.
People are making a fairly easy 1500 HP with the 6 so 900-1000 with the 4 should be very doable. They all use the same pistons/rods/ valve train and so forth just different cylinder count. The stock heads flow very close to 300 cfm and with just a little work will flow about 330 cfm. The exhaust side needs the most work as GM limited that side for emissions (what I've read). They are running the 6's over 10,000 na but I'd shoot for about 7500 blown. The drive train can cost a lot for the high rev limit as this is a DOHC motor with 4 valves per cylinder so you start to buy a lot of valve train components with the 6 and with the 4 about the same amount as a standard V-8.
They don't have the older GM bolt pattern for the bell housing but Sparky and I just bought adapters that allow older stuff to mount to the back of the motor. They are about $200.
Not much out there on these motors but here is the best source I've found and I have more links if you want them....
http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/
.. the site is mostly 6 owners but almost everything applies to the 4 cylinder also.
I'll be interested in seeing what others recommend,
Sum
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Something with DOHC would work well
but based on experience, 2 somethings with DOHC would work better
and from what I have seen proven so far is 3 somethings with DOHC worked the best.
Unless you can borrow an F1 motor
added, Sum, he did say NA
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(http://www.underhoodservice.com/Content/Site308/Articles/03_01_2009/927950X04PTPP03_00000046798.jpg)
Here are a couple more links....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Atlas_engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Atlas_engine)
http://www.selfracing.com/ (http://www.selfracing.com/)
http://www.vortec4200.com/tech.htm (http://www.vortec4200.com/tech.htm)
http://www.vortec4200.com/index_htm_files/vortec4200.pdf (http://www.vortec4200.com/index_htm_files/vortec4200.pdf)
http://www.underhoodservice.com/Article/92795/tech_feature_straight_up_look_at_the_vortec_3500_straightfive_engine.aspx (http://www.underhoodservice.com/Article/92795/tech_feature_straight_up_look_at_the_vortec_3500_straightfive_engine.aspx)
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Sum, Ive looked at the 2JZ for a possible blown F combo as I know the WGB 369 roadster runs one and makes great power. There just doesnt seem to be much in the way of N/A options for those motors. I forgot about the I-4 and I-5 GM motors. I know Dick Knorr with the Black Opel has an N/A Trailblazer motor in his car and has run well with it. THat could be something to look at.
Stainless, what 2 and 3 DOHC somethings are you referring to? I know of your lakester but dont know much about it. I know its one bad hombre and has lots of records, just didnt know what youve got for engines in it.
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You might want to see if these are still available & get a spare in a bulk buy.
Sid.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,9363.0.html
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There is no better proving ground than any racing venue since parts are constantly broken, developed, and improved by some of the best minds and manufactures in the country. Since circler track midgets use motor similar to your size, I would think any motor used in that venue would be a good place to start. Highly developed and optimized parts are readily available and reasonably priced. Google Esslinger Engineering but don’t fixate on them only . . . look at everything.
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The Yamaha built Taurus SHO 3.0L spins all day at 8300 RPM, with some additional oiling tricks should be able to maintain 9000.
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You talking about the V-6 or the V-8? Yes, they are both excellent motors but the 3.2 liter V-8 is a 60 degree which means it is an odd-fire. If you were going to run them untouched (what racer will do that, LOL) they would be an excellent choice. Since the V-8 is 60 degrees it is also a narrow design that has great fitment possibilities. The only trouble with it, its not an F motor and you would be dealing with aftermarket crank grinders on an odd-fire crank if you wanted to play with crank dimensions . . . that will be stre$$ful! :-D
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You talking about the V-6 or the V-8? Yes, they are both excellent motors but the 3.2 liter V-8 is a 60 degree which means it is an odd-fire. If you were going to run them untouched (what racer will do that, LOL) they would be an excellent choice. Since the V-8 is 60 degrees it is also a narrow design that has great fitment possibilities. The only trouble with it, its not an F motor and you would be dealing with aftermarket crank grinders on an odd-fire crank if you wanted to play with crank dimensions . . . that will be stre$$ful! :-D
The 6 cylinder ... the ones out of the manual transmissions are 3L while the automatics are 3.2L (bore is the only thing different)
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Rains and Poteet ran one of these in Blowfish. Check those records!
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/la4.html
Review what smart people or smart money are doing and add your creativity. No question the SBC in has been used and abused more than any motor in existence. The results are one of the best cost-benefit ratios out there. Before you blow off the 4 cylinder SBC V-8 look who is using it. One of the winningest cars out there is the Cohn and Juucewic Monza and Bob choose it for reason. Do the numbers and see if any other motor combination can beat the cost.
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Rains and Poteet ran one of these in Blowfish. Check those records!
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/la4.html
Review what smart people or smart money are doing and add your creativity. No question the SBC in has been used and abused more than any motor in existence. The results are one of the best cost-benefit ratios out there. Before you blow off the 4 cylinder SBC V-8 look who is using it. One of the winningest cars out there is the Cohn and Juucewic Monza and Bob choose it for reason. Do the numbers and see if any other motor combination can beat the cost.
I'd love to have the Mopar midget motor above, but haven't found one anywhere near what I can budget. I've also looked at the 1/2 of a V-8 motor and cost wise the SBC stuff is hard to beat. You do have to know what you are doing to make one live but it has been done. For me the V-8 in the lakester is a little too wide so I'm trying to avoid it.
I'm also staying away from na motors as I think to be competitive there you have to spend a lot of money to get a motor that will live at high rpm. Turbos are also not cheap but I think I can build a competitive blown motor for what "I'm doing" cheaper than a na motor but that might not be the case for all classes and current records.
Frankie you haven't told us what this is going in. I think SS was referring to running multiple engines but as far as I know that is only allowed in a streamliner,
Sum
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Sum, it would be for a rear engined modified roadster. All the F records are currently open in RMR at both Bonneville and El Mirage. Granted that could change by the time I get something built but if things go the way Im hoping thats what the plan will be is to build a RMR. Some things have changed in the last week so Im hoping with these changes, I might just get approval from the boss ( at home ) to do this.
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You talking about the V-6 or the V-8? Yes, they are both excellent motors but the 3.2 liter V-8 is a 60 degree which means it is an odd-fire. If you were going to run them untouched (what racer will do that, LOL) they would be an excellent choice. Since the V-8 is 60 degrees it is also a narrow design that has great fitment possibilities. The only trouble with it, its not an F motor and you would be dealing with aftermarket crank grinders on an odd-fire crank if you wanted to play with crank dimensions . . . that will be stre$$ful! :-D
Am I wrong again? I thought 60 degree V6 engines were even fire and that's why they are 60 degrees. And that 90 degree V6 engines were odd fire if they ran two rods on one jurnol like a V8. I had a 60 degree Nissan and I liked it. And they are cheap. Not an Indy engine by a long shot, but twin cam four valve.
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Frankie --
Don't forget there are minimums at El Mirage (currently closed as our federal representatives are in a snit).
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Frankie --Don't forget there are minimums at El Mirage (currently closed as our federal representatives are in a snit).
Stan, You are correct, there are minimums at EM. I always use the wrong term when it comes to El Mirage. What I shouldve said is that there currently arent any records set for the F RMR classes at El Mirage. Darn newbies Thanks for setting me straight :-)
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Build it soon, :cheers: Pete Ardema is going to put their crossbreed 3L in the rear engine roadster, its a cross between homemade and Indy. They made their own heads and block and used IRL parts. I think they set a record with it Speed Week in the lakester, its really a cool looking piece. But then again any engine that comes out of their shop is fascinating. Start a build diary. Tony
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Make some pretty crazy power with the Nissan Rb series, I'm not sure but an RB 30 might make the F class break.
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I saw both the Ardema headed cars in impoud at SW. Those two engines were neat. I focused more on their RMR for obvious reasons. Pretty wild to see a SBC head with a SOHC set up on a Model A block. Even if I started a build today those guys will have that 3L in the car and ran long before I'd be done.
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What are you putting it into? If a lower engine would be of use, the 3 liter Subaru with the individual exhaust ports looks like it could be a smooth running starting point.
Peugeot made a pretty slick 3 liter 24 valve - Ford Cosworth Cologne (rare, but slick).
The world is your oyster on this one - if you can't find a 3 liter engine with power potential, you're simply not looking.
BMW M 60 3 liter V8 . . .
Ooooh - that has potential . . .
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In South City there is a Japanese auto wrecker. You look in his engine pile and you can find all sorts of twin cam 4 valve 3 liter engines. But if you enjoy a challenge, I have a 170 cid Studebaker OHV 6 cylinder your welcome to.
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In South City there is a Japanese auto wrecker. You look in his engine pile and you can find all sorts of twin cam 4 valve 3 liter engines. But if you enjoy a challenge, I have a 170 cid Studebaker OHV 6 cylinder your welcome to.
What year is the Stude engine?
There are a lot of potentially good 3 liter motors out there that are good in stock form, but probably none that might set competitive records in stock form, with the exception of some pure race motors that most of us can't afford. So then one needs to look at the availability of race parts for them and cost and how hard is it going to be to connect them to a transmission/clutch/rearend that will work on the salt and be flexible down the road. A lot of these are front-wheel drive and most don't really have ideal transmissions for our needs. Nothing is impossible if you have the money or the machine shop capabilities to pull it off,
Sum
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The Stude is a '62 or '63. I forget. Comes with the three speed at the same price. I might even deliver to the salt in '14
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I was talking multiples, since I did not know what you were putting it in. Jim's triple 1 liters make a lot of power for the F class.
Never be afraid of what someone else might get put together, build whatever you think will go the fastest when you start your build...
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Maybe check out the Nissan VQ series http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_VQ_engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_VQ_engine)
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Stainless, yeah I guess I shouldve stated what I was thinking of building first. Im not afraid of what those guys are going to put together, they just have a head start as they already have a REMR together lol
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Nissan makes an rb20det, rb25det. 2.5 liter, and rb26det(t) 2.6 liter
All inline 6 cylinder engines and capable of astronimical power comparable to toyota 2jz. The 26 is the most expensive, the others are easily(cheaply) imported and have much more support than gm atlas engines.
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I think there is some sort of hybrid RB you can cobble together by mixing top and bottom ends?
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One advantage to half a V-8 is the development experience and a lot of the parts will directly apply to a full size one. You might want to build a big one some day.
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We run the Toyota 2JZ-GTE motor in the 369 Roadster and I love it, but only as a blown engine. The bottom end is as strong as the Brooklyn bridge but the cylinder head leaves so much to be desired. It just is not a package that has much hope as a N/A setup, unless you were going to rely on running massive shots of N2O. The head configuration just does not breath well, no matter how much money you are willing to throw at it.
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Figure Ill throw this out there to pick youze guys brains. If one were wanting to build a naturally aspirated F size engine 2.016 to 3.014 L 123.00 to 183.99 cid, which would be the best route and the easiest way to make good power? Ive never dealt with engines of this size so I have no idea. I know you can take a SBC 350 and take 4 pistons and rods out of it to get within the parameters. What else is out there guys. Thanks in advance
What about GM's Ecotec I4? I've got one in my HHR (which I ran stock at Wilmington and Loring), and it's a great little power plant--I'm getting a new Ecotec block and a turbo next month from ZZ Performance in Michigan. They've had their forged and girdled block up to 900 rwhp without failure, and their standard Gen 2+ blocks can easily handle 500 hp with forged internals. I'm not trying to shill for them here, but if you're interested, their site is pretty informative: www.zzperformance.com.
Gary
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I think there is some sort of hybrid RB you can cobble together by mixing top and bottom ends?
The Aussie RB30 is a SOHC, put a RB25 head on it and you get a very nice 3litre.
Plenty of aftermarket parts available for them.
DavieB put one together in a street car, pretty stock with a seat of the pants tune could eat most 5l V8 street cars ok, loved to rev, copped some abuse.
jon
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Frankie,
When you talk about 3 liter N/A motors it really gets down to dollars, doesn't it always! I would think that your minimum horse power for a competitive 3 liter (181 cu.in.) should be 400 hp, which can give you a number of options. If you can afford the "exotic" the choices run from former F1 motors, Cosworth DFVs, good for around 550 hp, are available for $50K+, some IRL motors can be had for considerably less, ask Tony Perra. Going down from there you could have a 181 inch midget motor built with all the bells and whistles for around $30-35K pan to injectors and probably have 415 hp +. Any of the "Rice Burner" 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder engines that are in the 3 liter area are certainly good candidates especially the earlier 4 valve DOHC units which have fewer concessions to emissions I would think could be good choices and as Jon says there are lots of speed improvement parts available. Although most of these 4 cylinder units would need at least a new crank to get to 3 liters and many of the 6 cylinder units, such as the Ford V6 would require development of almost all parts to make it a good NA engine that gets it to the 400 hp level.
If you are looking to be able to do it your self, I think I would look at the midget 4 cylinder option. There are some good iron and aluminum 4 cylinder blocks available that can be made to accept either the Chevrolet or Ford NASCAR heads. Good cranks, rods and pistons are also available and very well developed. Many parts, including blocks, are available as "race proven" i.e. used and still have good life left in them. The best thing is that if you have any experience with Chevy or Ford V8 engine building then you should easily be able to do a 4 cylinder based upon their design. And of course you can go with the 1/2 of a V8 approach which has and is being done successfully by the McMeekin team using 1/2 of a Ford V8.
Lots of ideas and options.
Rex
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Jimmie Stevens Arias midget engine was for sale on this site recently. Set several records in the Costella-Yacoucci streamliner. Check the for sale section on the site.
DW
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Here, I did the lookup for you:
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,12828.0.html
DW
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Midget Engine
ESSLINGER. any displacement...
I have run a 2.5L disp in the Merkur and lakester. My dyno numbers are
@600 turbo at the wheels with the very old SVO cyl head. Later 2.99L engines N/A that were over 350, but not dyno tested
Depending on your goals Blown/naturally aspirated it can do well. They are truly purpose built, light weight, and proven reliable in all venues of midget racing. I have been running Dan Esslingers stuff for more than 25 years and have had great success with his parts and engines. I have heard of dyno numbers of 450 HP naturally aspirated, (in calif) from 161 cubic inches. Alum block and girdle and very high port cyl head that flows like gangbusters. Lots of trick stuff and very affordable.
If your choice is N/A application In my mind the only way to get very high compression we need, (specifically for Bville), the higher compression methanol burning midget engine will prove out to be best.
I've run very high compression with ERC Gasoline and methanol. it might be a little harder to run the 17:1 head on gasoline at Ohio, but somebody probably has....
If your going to run on the salt, cooling needs to be addressed, but Esslinger seems to have that covered with his water pump that does a nice job, when run at the right speed. It was designed with the Taurus 2.5L water pump in mind....
all in all a nice well developed race engine for less than $30K
Toyota, Chebby and all the rest are considerably more.
Used midget engines are available nation wide.
Good luck
I''ll be back on the salt with my liner, powered of course by an Esslinger Midget motor. But I have to go to Wilmington first.
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Frankie,
I don't know about you but I like to maximize my investment. With that said, I would not go with any exotic 4 cyl. motor. I would not even go for a midget motor. I would go with a small block chevy V8. That motor gives you options for a lot less $$$$$$, plus you don't have to change motor mounts, etc. when you want to step up to run in another engine class.
With a stock 350 you would have a C class motor, half of that would be an F class motor, special crank E class motor, Forged factory crank D class motor, and if you really wanted you could build a B class motor with a stroker crankshaft. So that gives you a choice of a B, C, D, E, and F engine class with one block.
You say you are interested in building a N/A REMR. I don't know if this is current but here are the records - open minimums off of SCTA site, for a N/A REMR at El Mirage which is close for you to run at.
B Minimum 210.000
C Minimum 200.000
D Minimum 190.000
E Minimum 185.000
F Minimum 175.000
Bonneville records,
B North of 49 Racing T. Allen 08/12 248.853
C Hot Rod Hoodlums M. Jones 08/12 256.590
D BMC Special R. Blakely 08/10 243.618
E Hot Rod Hoodlums T. Teske 08/11 228.773
F OPEN 000.000
In my opinion the Bonneville records are pretty fast, so I would concentrate on the El Mirage open minimums. This would also give you time to get the bugs out of your car, and give you an idea of what it will take to go to Bonneville and try and set a record there. Also many people have SB Chevy's and someone might approach you and ask if they could put their motor in your car.
I like options, but that is just me. Whatever engine you pick I am sure you will be successful.
Tom G.
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Tom,
Dont you need to do a flat crank to make half a v8? If so, then cam needs to be changed, and intake fabricated. If we were to do all the labor ourselves the motor would be about 1/2 the cost of an Esslinger long track engine. Interesting on how to optomize. but there is some development time involved. A very interesting proposition.
I like your option Tom. And yes the liner will package a small v8. Original Mel Swain design was for an Aurora Indy engine I think....
for me for now though, viva la Pinto :-d
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I think you use 2 on one side and two on the other to get an even fire V4 out of a V8 with the OEM crank. Or at least that was what Solomon and Hardsock did. Or if you don't want to take me up on the 3 liter Stude. I do have 2 1928 Chevy 4 cylinder engines here. One with the very racey 1925 Olds head. A midget motor from the good days
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To throw another log on the fire, SCAT built a 4 cylinder based on the SBC architecture , basically it was the front and rear cylinders of the SBC. Though it was hard on trans gears and had a bad vibration it did well in midget races. It was also adapted by Arlen Ness for some of his choppers. The last time I talked with Arlen he still had some of the blocks and heads kicking around. Tony
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To throw another log on the fire, SCAT built a 4 cylinder based on the SBC architecture , basically it was the front and rear cylinders of the SBC. Though it was hard on trans gears and had a bad vibration it did well in midget races. It was also adapted by Arlen Ness for some of his choppers. The last time I talked with Arlen he still had some of the blocks and heads kicking around. Tony
I wanted to build one of those since I saw one in ness' Sturgis booth back in the 90s.
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Tom --
I think you picked up an old Rule Book. The B, C and D records are set, although a lot less the the standard GMRs. I'd think the RMRs would have an advantage -- time will tell.
Stan
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I have done a bit of research for alternatives to the JZ or RB26 engine platforms. WHile both excellent and proven motors they are getting very difficult to find, and are really expensive.
A BMW M3 motor (E46) [3.2l, would need to be destroked to 3] is making about 340whp is stock form and is making +1200 hp with boost. These too are expensive motors but are easier to find IMO but were DESIGNED to make HP in stock form.
Plus....the inline 6s have a smaller FA!!!!
GOod luck!
~JH
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The 1/2 a V-8 has interested me in the past and might still, but there are drawbacks and vibration is for sure one. Here is ...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvilleother/4-8%20Cyl-3.jpg)
...a picture of what Russ Eyers did and he...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvilleother/4-8%20Cyl-4.jpg)
...was pretty convincing in why he only used one bank compared to 2 on one side and 2 on the other. Most all of the conversions such as SCAT and others just used one bank. I posted a page on my site years ago devoted to this approach and it is still there....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvilleother/page%205.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvilleother/page%205.html)
.... and it summarizes some of these approaches. Different manufactures have and still do run a V-8 on 4 cylinders or more under different load conditions.
If I was going to go 1/2 a V-8 it for sure would be with an LS based motor and not the old SBC. To get to the 400 HP level that Rex mentioned you need a small block that is making over 800 HP NA and that is NASCAR territory, again not cheap. You can get LS heads that flow way better than all but the most expensive SBC heads.
There again the GM I-4 that I mentioned and other engines that were mentioned flow well over 300 cfm almost stock. The I-4 I mentioned isn't as well know as some of the others but you can get rods, pistons, cams, girdles and valve train to make it a very viable motor.
Frankie another approach and one I'm kind of taking is based on what was mentioned above. Build the car put together a reasonably priced motor of know HP unless you have the money for one of the $25,000 to $50,000 options. Run the car and see what it will do MPH wise. Knowing the HP and the speed you can calculate a speed that might be a legitimate record holder...
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html)
....now maybe someone who has a motor with the required HP or has the money to buy/build one will partner up with you. As was mentioned some people just don't have the time to build a car but want to be involved.
Good luck,
Sum
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...uh...Frankie....there might be a "great" deal on a 3L right here on the board...
recently dynoed....LOTS of parts...lots of potental....
Buick 3 L......
not joking...
Jon A. and Stainless....have it....
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Another option for a 4 cylinder. The quad 4.
2.4 liters and made i believe 220 or more hp inthe olds trafaeo (spelling?) naturally aspirated. Some more tweaking and true ram air, 300 hp or more would not be out of the question.
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To throw another log on the fire, SCAT built a 4 cylinder based on the SBC architecture , basically it was the front and rear cylinders of the SBC. Though it was hard on trans gears and had a bad vibration it did well in midget races. It was also adapted by Arlen Ness for some of his choppers. The last time I talked with Arlen he still had some of the blocks and heads kicking around. Tony
I wanted to build one of those since I saw one in ness' Sturgis booth back in the 90s.
Arlen ended up with the patterns for the motor also, and a real nice guy to talk to. That V4 looks crazy! Kind of reminds me of the 2 cylinder Riley midget motor from the '30s. Tony
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Thanks for all the options thus far. Being that ill be on very small budget all the exotic high dollar stuff won't be happening. But lots of options to think about and keep in mind.
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Don't overlook marine applications.
I recall Mercruiser made a killer 4 banger that used a Ford 429 head.
Cobra Jet Head on a 4? - That could be frightening.
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Don't overlook marine applications.
I recall Mercruiser made a killer 4 banger that used a Ford 429 head.
Cobra Jet Head on a 4? - That could be frightening.
Also both omc and mercruiser used a gm 3.0l 140hp and 170 hp as well. Monster ports. Readily available everywhere near a lake. Only downside to those is the non cross flow head design.
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Tom,
Dont you need to do a flat crank to make half a v8? If so, then cam needs to be changed, and intake fabricated.
Hi Rick,
Hope all is well, yes you do need a flat / 180 degree crankshaft to run one bank of the chevy V8 motor and camshaft to match. I found a brand new billet flat crank on ebay and paid about half of what one would cost new, I got lucky. I was not going to go with a fabricated intake, just a good flowing aftermarket intake with a nice plenum under the carb. Or I guess if you were worried about the other port openings you could block them off. I hope to see you on the salt next year.
Tom G.
Tom --
I think you picked up an old Rule Book. The B, C and D records are set, although a lot less the the standard GMRs. I'd think the RMRs would have an advantage -- time will tell.
Stan
Stan,
Thanks for catching that, much appreciated. I copied the Blown REMR at El Mirage in the above post, my mistake. Here are hopefully current records at El Mirage, again off of the SCTA site.
I agree I think they do have an advantage, if I were to build a REMR, I would build a Sidewinder and eliminate the torque steer, and use the torque to my advantage. JMO.
Tom G.
PS. IMO 300 HP would set a new record at El Mirage in the F/REMR Class.
B Kraut Bros W. Boelcke 05/12 215.067
C Low Sodium W. Boelcke 05/11 201.413
D Vintage Hammer Special F. Valdez 05/11 196.588
E Minimum 170.000
F Minimum 160.000
To throw another log on the fire, SCAT built a 4 cylinder based on the SBC architecture , basically it was the front and rear cylinders of the SBC. Though it was hard on trans gears and had a bad vibration it did well in midget races. It was also adapted by Arlen Ness for some of his choppers. The last time I talked with Arlen he still had some of the blocks and heads kicking around. Tony
Hi Tony,
That is interesting that Arlen still had some stuff for those motors. A couple of years ago I went down to Scat and ordered a crankshaft and talked to Tom L. about that motor, and I think he told me something happened to all the patterns for that motor, either they got burned up or something. But I defiantly got the feeling that there was no way to cast any more of those motors. Ask Arlen next time you talk to him so we know what happened.
Tom G.
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The Mercruiser 3.0 L four was a Chevy II.
I built one with a Fontana head. Billet crank, steel billet rods, forged pistons, roller cam, dry sump, drizzle injection, It made 300HP. Mariani built a 1/2 Chevy V-8 (one side of the block with a flat crank) with a SBX head and put 20 MPH on our record in F/STR at El Mirage. We upped the compression ratio to 14/1 and put a bigger cam in it and we are still 10 MPH short. Without getting exotic the SB Chevy route looks good to me. There are a ton of NASCAR parts out there.
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I had read once before about what Fred Larsen had done years ago to get a SBC down to 183 ci. He took a 265 block and put a 5/8 destroked crank in it to get it down to 183 ci. Problem with that idea these days is Im not sure one could find a useable 265 block. The other option would be to take a 350 block and put sleeves in it to get it down to the 3.750 bore of a 265. Then get a custom destroked crank. When he made a 120 cid engine, thats when he took 4 pistons out of the engine. Every other one out of the firing order so one bank had the center pistons, the other had the outers. He then bolted two rod caps together on the rod journal that didnt have a rod and piston. Interesting stuff
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265 blocks are out there. Might look at a 305 as well. I have both here in the shop :-D :cheers:
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Don't forget Chevy did make a 262 V8 for two years also in 1975 and 1976. 3.67 Bore x 3.10 stroke.
Picture is of my Bryant 3.48 Stroke, 180 / flat crankshaft. 4.060 bore x 3.48 stroke x 4 cyl. = 180.2
Tom G.
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Always forget about the 262 economy motor!
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one of the motors that Fred Larsen ran in the streamliner was a V-8 with two pistons in each bank, two center on one side and two at the ends on the other. He remarked to me once that if it needed a valve job he just switched the heads from side to side.
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I had read once before about what Fred Larsen had done years ago to get a SBC down to 183 ci. He took a 265 block and put a 5/8 destroked crank in it to get it down to 183 ci. Problem with that idea these days is Im not sure one could find a useable 265 block. The other option would be to take a 350 block and put sleeves in it to get it down to the 3.750 bore of a 265. . . .
This is just not a viable option nowadays. When you sleeve down the bore, or use the small bore 265 or 262, you end up with a serious breathing problem. The problem is the valve centerline distance on the SBC. It is too wide for a small bore! So you end notching the top of the sleeve to prevent valve interference but get very poor breathing compared to what you can get today with highly developed SBC heads. The SBC 262 (3.671” bore) used a small valve head that you could use on your sleeved motor (without shrouding) but it was an economy head and would be so poor flowing as to be uncompetitive. You would be much better off pulling 4 cylinders and using conventional bores so as to take advantage of modern heads and there tremendous flow capability.
As has been mention many times above, various modern used parts and NASCAR parts for the SBC are readily available based on normal dimensions. You just can’t beat the cost/performance ratio of an SBC. If you don’t want to pull 4 pistons then a midget motor or the other V-6s mentioned would be much kinder to your wallet.
I'll post a pic of a winning 4 cylinder V-8 in another post.
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I had read once before about what Fred Larsen had done years ago to get a SBC down to 183 ci. He took a 265 block and put a 5/8 destroked crank in it to get it down to 183 ci. Problem with that idea these days is Im not sure one could find a useable 265 block. The other option would be to take a 350 block and put sleeves in it to get it down to the 3.750 bore of a 265. . . .
This is just not a viable option nowadays. When you sleeve down the bore, or use the small bore 265 or 262, you end up with a serious breathing problem. The problem is the valve centerline distance on the SBC. It is too wide for a small bore! So you end notching the top of the sleeve to prevent valve interference but get very poor breathing compared to what you can get today with highly developed SBC heads. The SBC 262 (3.671” bore) used a small valve head that you could use on your sleeved motor (without shrouding) but it was an economy head and would be so poor flowing as to be uncompetitive. You would be much better off pulling 4 cylinders and using conventional bores so as to take advantage of modern heads and there tremendous flow capability.
As has been mention many times above, various modern used parts and NASCAR parts for the SBC are readily available based on normal dimensions. You just can’t beat the cost/performance ratio of an SBC. If you don’t want to pull 4 pistons then a midget motor or the other V-6s mentioned would be much kinder to your wallet.
I'll post a pic of a winning 4 cylinder V-8 in another post.
Saltfever,
One head that was made for a SB Chevy that is sometimes over looked is the Dart Buick heads. The valve center-lines were located almost in the center-line of the bore so with a 2.100-inch intake and 1.625-inch exhaust valves and a 4.000-inch bore, there's still an 1/8-inch bore clearance on each side. So that along with 43 cc chambers stock, which could be milled down, it would be a good candidate for a small inch motor. These heads were very competitive in NHRA Comp Eliminator classes back around 2000, and most ran motors in the 270 - 280 inch range, but the RPM was up there, most ran through the quarter at around 9300-9600 RPM. With the right profile camshaft and some good valve springs, these heads might just work an a 183 inch V8. If you could get 2.25 HP per inch you would have 411 HP. It would be a fun experiment. More food for thought.
Tom G.
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Dont overlook the small v8s offered by ford either. Some engineering may need to be put back in them to make a bit more robust, but the late 90's taurus sho and lincoln ls both came with i believe 3.0l v8 and dohc heads.
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I think those were built by Yamaha.
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Neil is correct - not unusual.
But I keep coming back to the M60 BMW 3 liter V8. Yeah, not as cheap as a small block, but -
4 valves, DOHC, compact, huge HP upside potential, modern casting techniques, serviceable short blocks readily available.
And they run smooth as a baby's bottom.
The only real issue I see would be figuring out how to ditch the hydraulic valve actuation and go with a mechanical set-up.
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One head that was made for a SB Chevy that is sometimes over looked is the Dart Buick heads. The valve center-lines were located almost in the center-line of the bore so with a 2.100-inch intake and 1.625-inch exhaust valves and a 4.000-inch bore, there's still an 1/8-inch bore clearance on each side. So that along with 43 cc chambers stock, which could be milled down, it would be a good candidate for a small inch motor. Tom G.
You are right, Tom and that is a good point. Although, you could not run that head in a Production class which requires the same "type" of ports. Meaning the SBC is Siamese ports and the Dart is a symmetrical port. However, Frankie was interested in a modified category (RMR) and the head would be legal.
My earlier point was you can get great performance using proven SBC parts for possibly lower cost than developing some of the complete V6 or V8 motors mentioned. I am not downplaying the performance potential of any motor mentioned. Frankie kind of indicated he was taking baby steps and wanted to get into an F motor. What could be more simpler than throwing 4 pistons away and bolting up a Muncie or T-10.
Here is a picture of the current F Classic record holder. That motor has gone 182MPH unblown in a 75 Monza! Notice the exhaust pipes and stock SBC firing order.
:cheers:
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(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13228.0;attach=43370;image)
.....What could be more simpler than throwing 4 pistons away and bolting up a Muncie or T-10.
Here is a picture of the current F Classic record holder. That motor has gone 182MPH unblown in a 75 Monza! Notice the exhaust pipes and stock SBC firing order.
:cheers:
Very nice looking motor. I'd be interested in knowing how they balanced it. I've read of and talked to people that have used bob weights or rods and pistons with holes in them as you just can't remove the rods and pistons alone. Vibration even to the point of throwing dampeners and such has still been an issue for the motors I've heard about. Do you know what has been done with this engine and if vibration has been a problem and the RPM it is turning?
Sum
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Not cheap but interesting choice might be the Radical Sports Cars SR8, Hayabusa V8. It is apparently available in a 2.8 litre size and is reported to produce 455hp N/A.
http://thekneeslider.com/hayabusa-v8-grows-up-28-liter-455bhp/
Another approach might be - if you go the half-a-v8 route it might be possible to create something DOHC using Subaru parts. IIRC the bore centerlines of the Subaru flat 4 are almost the same as the SBC. Although I don't know that as fact but am pretty sure I read it somewhere.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,11154.0.html
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I understood the S&H V4 Chevy I mentioned earlier had all the pistons in. Just removed pushrods. Jack said he thought that the pistons going up under compression would be balanced by the ones going down pushed by the compressed air. I don't know.
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A guy near me put together an F class motor from a 4.8 LS... Sleeved and filled block, tiny
stroke running on methanol... Believe it measures out to right around 3 liters, and revs to
the Dodgin' moon. 500+hp at 9500+rpm :cheers:
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A guy near me put together an F class motor from a 4.8 LS... Sleeved and filled block, tiny
stroke running on methanol... Believe it measures out to right around 3 liters, and revs to
the Dodgin' moon. 500+hp at 9500+rpm :cheers:
That sounds interesting. What is that motor going into?
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Hey, major news flash, check Dr G on the aussie tank thread, his consultants say put a small block in it.... :roll:
Just checking to see if you are reading all of them James...
back to your regular speculation... :cheers:
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A guy near me put together an F class motor from a 4.8 LS... Sleeved and filled block, tiny
stroke running on methanol... Believe it measures out to right around 3 liters, and revs to
the Dodgin' moon. 500+hp at 9500+rpm :cheers:
That sounds interesting. What is that motor going into?
If I told you, I'd have to kill you... :-D '74 BMW 2002
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The Ford Vulcan 3.0 is actually a good motor (think Ranger and Taurus) The heads use the same fancy valvetrain that the 5.0 guys use. There are turbo and blower kits for them. Would need some development but I feel there is hope.
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Thanks one and all for the input. Looks like at this point its all going to be for naught though. I was hoping that with me no longer helping Sparky on his lakester that my wife would be more supportive of a LSR effort. That isnt the case. Funny she wants to no part of LSR but yet shes never been to an event and really doesnt show any interest in wanting to go to one. So without her support, building my own car wont be happening. Thanks again guys for the input
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I thought you'd say you were really going to miss her!!! :-D
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I thought you'd say you were really going to miss her!!! :-D
g
LMAO!
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Mike, despite my wife's lack of interest or support in LSR, she has always been supportive of my drag racing efforts over the years ( and any other endeavors ) While im not giving up hope on someday building and racing a car on the salt, it isnt in the cards currently. Plsu if I sent her packign I sure as hell couldnt afford to race while paying child support :-)
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Keep buying those lottery tickets Frankie! :roll: :evil: :-D
Pete
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Keep buying those lottery tickets Frankie! :roll: :evil: :-D
Pete
I do every week Pete ;-)
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That sounds like defeatism!? Over? Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? It's not over until WE SAY its over!!!!! :-D
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That sounds like defeatism!? Over? Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? It's not over until WE SAY its over!!!!! :-D
LMAO Trent
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Doing all I can to help :wink: :cheers:
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It would be sad to be defeated by lack of support from wife....
I wouldnt trade my wifes support for any winning lottery ticket...
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MR. Amo sir :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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tman :-o it wasn't the sieg heils--- it was the tora tora tora bunch
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tman :-o it wasn't the sieg heils--- it was the tora tora tora bunch
Animal House quote Bill.
http://youtu.be/q7vtWB4owdE
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Like I said guys shes been supportive of everything else ive done in our 20 years of being together, just havent won her over on LSR, yet
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Tell her it's just a slightly longer drag race without the hazard of some kook running against you just a few feet away. 8-) 8-) :evil:
Pete
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let her drive... :cheers:
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LSR is a tough sell -
"Hey Honey, let's load up the trailer and spend a week in 90 degree heat with no shade, stay in an overpriced casino and see if I can't scatter a fair percentage of our retirement savings across a dried lake bed! I'll even rent you a porta-potty!"
It's a balancing act, even with a supportive wife.
And let's face it - as positive as Kate has been toward my endeavor, I know the shoe is eventually going to drop, and I'll be stuck in steerage for 8 hours with my knees in my face on a trip to some eurotrash tourist trap where I'll sample cheese made from camel's milk and learn how lye can be used to preserve whitefish for years without refrigeration.
And I'll do it with a good heart . . . and a belly full of beer . . .
Happy wife, happy life. :wink: