Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: lsrjunkie on September 24, 2013, 05:15:03 PM
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Does anybody know what octane the event gas is at Bonneville? I'm diving into my engine build and figured knowing the octane of the gas that is available from ERC would sure make figuring a compression ratio a lot easier.
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-here's a link to a list of all their fuels.
http://www.ercracingfuels.com/sxs1.htm
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Mul B, 110, and one of the 118 oct are gas class legal. Call Rick Gold at ERC.
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If you need something else next year Rick will accommodate.
DW
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It looks like there is a new gas, MUL-C.
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Mul B, 110, and one of the 118 oct are gas class legal. Call Rick Gold at ERC.
It's the A-19A - .699 specific gravity. I called ahead before I dynoed to get it close with what's available in Wisconsin. Specs similar to VP C-14.
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Which you cannot use if you plan to visit Impound. Dyno your rods out.
DW
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Which you cannot use if you plan to visit Impound. Dyno your rods out.
DW
DW, Yes you can, just run the fuel class :evil:
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Presuming things have not changed, DW told me in the past that any gasoline ERC had on the truck was Gas class legal.
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So what I'm gathering is there is more than one octane available at any given event?
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Check their website, I think Rick brings everything you see so you can match your requirements for your engine. If they don't have what you need to run in gas class your engine program is too exotic. :-D
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Thanks Stainless! That's what I needed to know. I didn't know if they only supplied one certain octane. I'd hate to have 14:1 CR and only have 100 octane available!
And to jack my own thread, Glad your doing good Stainless!!
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Test on whatever you want. Show up and tell Rick what you've been using. And tell him what you're running. CR and so-on.
He'll give you what you need. No need to worry about that. Lots of other things to worry about. He'll know what's best for you.
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Test on whatever you want. Show up and tell Rick what you've been using. And tell him what you're running. CR and so-on.
He'll give you what you need. No need to worry about that. Lots of other things to worry about. He'll know what's best for you.
Stan - my friend - please, please, don't ever say that to me, please. I've been bitten in the arse so many times by those who knew what's best for me.
My first cam was best for me - that's why we went to Elgin and had him build one to our specs.
The Crane springs were best for me - now they're on their way to a street driven Mini build as we speak.
My rockers were a "bolt on" application . . . after relieving the inside radius next to the pedestals.
The successful components, like the crank, the rods, the pistons, the stupid little valve spring cups which I had machined and hardened - the ones that fit right and don't fail - are the ones I've researched and specified, or have received input about from by those not directly concerned with selling me something they had.
Maybe I'm becoming a control freak, but I'd rather find out what he's got and tune accordingly than tune and try to have something available that might work.
The point I didn't completely make was that there are comparative products out there for testing purposes. And granted, the choices are limited on the salt, but the closest ERC guy for me is in Minneapolis - I can get VP just south of town. By checking the sheets, you can come very close to ERC's formulations with VP or - whoever - to tune your engine before you get to the salt.
I've no doubt Rick knows his stuff, and I know he really cares about getting it right. But when I filled up, I told him I tuned with a fuel with a specific gravity of .696 in order to match his ERC .699. I think he appreciated that I had done some home work.
I will tune to the fuel - I won't fuel to the tune. Stan, you are right - there ARE lots of other things to worry about.
Okay, I'm climbing down off of my peach crate.
Man, am I cranky today . . . :wink:
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"Okay, I'm climbing down off of my peach crate.
Man, am I cranky today . . . wink"
Time for a beer or two, Chris..... :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Test on whatever you want. Show up and tell Rick what you've been using. And tell him what you're running. CR and so-on.
He'll give you what you need. No need to worry about that. Lots of other things to worry about. He'll know what's best for you.
Stan - my friend - please, please, don't ever say that to me, please. I've been bitten in the arse so many times by those who knew what's best for me.
My first cam was best for me - that's why we went to Elgin and had him build one to our specs.
The Crane springs were best for me - now they're on their way to a street driven Mini build as we speak.
My rockers were a "bolt on" application . . . after relieving the inside radius next to the pedestals.
The successful components, like the crank, the rods, the pistons, the stupid little valve spring cups which I had machined and hardened - the ones that fit right and don't fail - are the ones I've researched and specified, or have received input about from by those not directly concerned with selling me something they had.
Maybe I'm becoming a control freak, but I'd rather find out what he's got and tune accordingly than tune and try to have something available that might work.
The point I didn't completely make was that there are comparative products out there for testing purposes. And granted, the choices are limited on the salt, but the closest ERC guy for me is in Minneapolis - I can get VP just south of town. By checking the sheets, you can come very close to ERC's formulations with VP or - whoever - to tune your engine before you get to the salt.
I've no doubt Rick knows his stuff, and I know he really cares about getting it right. But when I filled up, I told him I tuned with a fuel with a specific gravity of .696 in order to match his ERC .699. I think he appreciated that I had done some home work.
I will tune to the fuel - I won't fuel to the tune. Stan, you are right - there ARE lots of other things to worry about.
Okay, I'm climbing down off of my peach crate.
Man, am I cranky today . . . :wink:
Going to make this comment, not to complain, but just a fyi from my point of view. I can get Sunoco 110 local for about $7.50 a gallon. It is not far from the ERC 110 I use at Bonneville. Last year was doing some dyno work and wanted to try to tune to the ERC 110 and while at it, was playing with come injector configuration and thrashing a slow combustion situation and thought I'd try some 19K while was at it to see if anything there. ( could tell no diff on my testing with either fuel but that is another story). So I called Rick up and got 10 gal of ERC 110 and 5 Gal of 19K. Charge for the fuel, cans (a screw up there that he partly refunded me for at the track) and shipping was a tidy $350 for 15 gal of gas. They don't make emoticons with big enough eyeballs for that one. :-o Ok, I live in Maryland so was UPS freighted across country etc etc.
Anyway, read the specs. If you need help from someone who knows more about fuel, get it. Chris tuned with a local something and spoke with Rick to get SG correct etc. And it worked for him. Lots of differences. But beware if you want to tune with actual BNI fuel. It may be worth while to use something more readily available (assuming you are not local to an ERC distributor) and match the specs. Then be conservative with your tune until you see how it behaves on the track.
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So, is A=19A legal in gas class or not? :?
Don't leave me hanging. :-D
Thanks, Don
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So, is A=19A legal in gas class or not? :?
Don't leave me hanging. :-D
Thanks, Don
Yes!
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Thanks Chris.
That's what I thought but reply 6 and 7 had me wondering.
I must have misinterpreted something.
Don
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Thanks Chris.
That's what I thought but reply 6 and 7 had me wondering.
I must have misinterpreted something.
Don
Pretty sure DW was referring to the VP C-14> And if you run it, you are therefore in "fuel" class as was pointed out. And if you bring a can of 19A (perhaps unless factory sealed and put in tank under watchful eye of inspector and then sealed) that is not legal either (since you would have had the opportunity to doctor it or bring something else in the can). Personally, I have never seen a fuel check though I suppose they get done time to time. If one wanted to cheat fuel wise, pretty easy to do but what's the point anyway? A bit why ECTA has stopped sealing tanks etc and relied on the racer to be honest.
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When either Nancy or I have qualified in a gas class (we race bikes only) and gone to impound -- our fuel has been sampled. And then, if we're fortunate enough to back up the qualifier -- the fuel was sampled once again.
It won't be sampled if you don't go to impound, but then, instead of running on a record -- you're running on a lie if you've put other than event fuel in your tank. Even if it's "the same as. . ." -- it's not the real stuff.
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When either Nancy or I have qualified in a gas class (we race bikes only) and gone to impound -- our fuel has been sampled. And then, if we're fortunate enough to back up the qualifier -- the fuel was sampled once again.
It won't be sampled if you don't go to impound, but then, instead of running on a record -- you're running on a lie if you've put other than event fuel in your tank. Even if it's "the same as. . ." -- it's not the real stuff.
I guess you bike guys have all the luck!! :roll:
Seriously, been to the salt maybe 17-18 times since my first in 1979 and been fortunate to make it to impound a number of them. They have looked at sealed tank. Never have I seen a fuel sample taken. Like I said, I am sure it happens as SSS points out. Unfortunately there may be some folks who don't mind running on a lie. :-(
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Since we are so far off the record we have used our own fuel at times. Tim ends up with some VP from his dragster and it is nice to use it up when shaking things down. If we had a chance at a run on the record we would not bother and go straight to the fuel truck. And yes, the fuel guys stick the tank to see what in it before fueling. We had a bike in front of us this year that they watched him siphone out a couple pints or so.
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They have taken samples from us every time we have set a record in gas class.
Where do you think they get gas for there generator. :-D
We were considering trying A-19A but decided not to change what was already working.
Don
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And yes, the fuel guys stick the tank to see what in it before fueling.
Gee, I only had a pint of nitro left in the tank. 8-)
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Just to confirm, I checked my notes, and Rick told me last fall that they bring out the following -
110K, A-8D, A-19A, MUL/A, RUL/H and RUL/T.
That's three leaded, three unleaded.
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ERC Racing Fuels complete specifications
http://www.ercracingfuels.com/sxs1.htm (http://www.ercracingfuels.com/sxs1.htm)
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I don't think the RUL is gas class legal, only one of the high octane I legal. Again call Rick to find out what is legal.
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I don't think the RUL is gas class legal, only one of the high octane I legal. Again call Rick to find out what is legal.
Again, see my reply #8. I don't think Rick is the person that determines what is legal. He I am sure can provide specifications and these can be compared to those in the rule book.
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Rick is the person who knows what is legal.
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Rick is the person who knows what is legal.
I stand corrected.
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We do the same thing as mentioned earlier. ERC is hard to get here so the tuning is done with Sunoco Standard and 110K is used at the event, if needed. I cannot tell any difference between the fuels so this works great. Both are good gasolines.
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Personally, I have never seen a fuel check though I suppose they get done time to time.
Jack, that's an interesting point.
I remember going to El Mirage in the '90s, and I believe it was Chuck Kalbach's car being tested for fuel with an electronic insert that was put into the tank on a long stick. I asked him about it, and he explained that alcohol and nitro methane have different resistances, so that is how they were able to distinguish gasoline from fuel.
Maybe it's no longer possible to do that - gasoline formulations have changed dramatically in the last 20 years - but I can't ever say in the times I've been to Bonneville I ever saw gasoline tested in this manner.
Maybe I just missed it.
I know after my rookie pass, after I pumped out my tank, they beat on the bottom of it, it made a "clank", and they sealed off my tank after I filled up.
If they don't check after a record run, well, heck - A quart of nitro methane could easily be put in the tank through a vent.
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They of course do check that the tank is properly sealed and yes, that you arrive at the fuel truck empty. That is not what I have meant but that I have not seen an actual sample taken for testing. Others have, of course, as has been mentioned. The rule book does have specific diaelectric and other features that are supposed to match. As I alluded previously and Chris just stated, non legal components could be added through a vent etc if you want to but as has been stated, if you want to run a lie (not just running afoul of rule interpretation or misunderstanding) so be it. Again, Dan told me anything gasoline wise on the fuel truck was "legal" event gas. Having in the past thought that only the 110k was the "event gas" when I was running a blown gas liner, I would have liked to use one of the higher octane blends.
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"Test on whatever you want. Show up and tell Rick what you've been using. And tell him what you're running. CR and so-on.
He'll give you what you need. No need to worry about that. Lots of other things to worry about. He'll know what's best for you."
What I was trying to convey was that Rick will help you match up his product to as close as the product you've been using. And a lot of folks think his advise is solid if you don't have a clue on what to use -- as I did.
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Thanks Stan. That was my big concern. I didn't want to build a motor that we tuned on gas available here and then not be able to get the same octane out on the salt. I won't need 120 octane, but I wanted to make sure that if we tuned on 110, I could get it on the salt.
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One consideration is that if your engine is tuned for another gasoline, Rick will advise you to choose the safest fuel from what he has available. For example, your engine might perform better on MUL/B, but if Rick isn't sure if your engine will tolerate it, he might steer you to 110K to be safe. Thus tuning on another fuel and leaving it up to Rick to decide is fine, but you might leave horsepower on the table. -Dean