Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Avanti Kid on August 18, 2013, 06:31:31 PM
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This is a subject that really has me ticked off, as stated in SCTA Rule Book in 2012 as follows:
3.M "Parachutes"
An approved parachute is required on all cars that qualify for the long course (175mph). Vehicles that exceed 300 mph shall be equipped with two (2) independent parachute systems, all Parachutes shall be opened during inspection. etc
Then new 2012 rule change states the following:
On those vehicles required to have a parachute/s the deployment of the parachute/s is at the driver's discretion, consistent with safe and efficient event and vehicle operation
To me this new change is like hiring a lifeguard that can't swim, its "dumber than dirt". Here is my reason for saying I'm against this rule and suggest SCTA get rid of it ASAP. When I not racing my Avanti I help SCTA with the Timing duties at Speed Week, last year I did the timing on courses 3 & 4, had about 125 rookies on course #4 and really no problems with the rookies, our starter would tell me at the tower what car number was coming and for me to watch at the 2 mile point how the car did in speed, handling and if it had a chute, report if it deployed OK then how did they do on exit speed and clear the course. I feel this is a important requirement for those cars that have a record over 175 mph, that they must deploy their chute at this lower speed to make sure the chute was attached correctly on the race car. Now with this new rule, you don't have to use you chute at the driver wish, thus you don't have to waste your time in the pits repacking your chute. Then later in the week I was doing the timing on course #3 and a Corvette made a very nice run at the 3 mile, his speed was around 200 mph, then as I was watching him from the tower, no chute at the 4, no chute at the 5 and finally he slows down and exit the course around the 5 1/2 to 6 mile point, so I called my long patrol car and asked them to go over the racer and ask the driver why his chute did not deploy. The patrol told me that the guy in the Corvette decided not to use the chute, so I told my patrol man "You tell the driver I'm not happy with him refusing to use the chute, he has cause additional delay on course 3, which means the next racers are suited up and have to wait longer for him to get off the course." So I got on the FM and notified Lee Kennedy the car number and asked him to give him a warning" Now, folks this happened because last year I was not aware of this new rule, so I'm guilty of making a mistake and I owe that racer an apology, I hope he reads this message. Later I told Mariam that I thought that new rule was stupid and needs to be changed so our cars would be safer and move the waiting lines faster by using the chute and not making so many ruts in the salt from applying the vehicle brakes.
Now I realize a parachute can be your friend or your enemy if you attach it wrong on your vehicle, but mounted correctly and checked at lower speeds. it should be required to use. Question, why is it required to have parachute at inspection but not required to use on the race course?? So I'm hoping for some remarks from you racers if you think the current rule should stand or go back to the old rule before 2012 which states you must use your chute if the record your racing in is over 175mph. Please, if you respond give your name and race car number so I can put a survey together to give to SCTA rules change process, Please give me pros & cons on this statement, thanks for your time, Dave Bloomberg (Avanti Kid Racing) :cheers:
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We've run a Street Roadster over 200 and are out at the 6. What's wrong with that?
Observation during licensing on mandatory chute deployment can affirm correct usage.
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Stan as the rule stands today you don't have to use your chute during licensing as stated if the driver decides not to use the chute, you only have to have your chute for at inspection before an event and also if you don't use you chute that means your using your brakes which can cause ruts on the salt. Maybe next they will say you don't need to use a chute at El Mirage and you go out the back door???
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Stan the example I gave you was on course 3 which is 3 miles long, your example is on course 1 or 2 which is 5 miles long so you stopping without using your chute at the 6 is very good, must have good brakes.
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The only way that I can see braking causing ruts in the salt surface is if the car has a high CG which transfers weight to the front tires. On an already very heavy car running narrow LSR tires it could cause such high pressure on the salt surface that it could cause depressions or ruts in the surface. A high CG and a heavy car seems to indicate that roadsters, etc. would be the most likely candidates.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Thank you Stan and Neil for your responses, Dave
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Dave,
I agree 100% with half your issue and completely disagree with the other half.
It seems like your real issue is racers just rolling down the course and holding up the meet. This is a VERY real problem and it seems to be the same guys, over and over and over again.
In the 369 Roadster (220-235 mph) we only use the chute if we have an issue of some sort, otherwise we roll out and use the brakes. In each case I just researched we were clear of the course within 1.25 miles past our shut off. One of those times (last year) the rover asked what happened to my chute and I told him it worked perfectly, I didn't pull it and it didn't pop out. I then asked him if I cleared the course fast enough and he said yes. I was sitting at the 5.25 on the return road after running to the 4.
I dont care HOW they clear the course, just that the DO clear the course quickly. There is very few excuses for a short course car to be passing the 5 mile marker, even if it is dragging a chute (streamliners excepted).
That guy should have got a yellow tag for obstructing the meet, not for failing to pull his chute. Let him worry about how to clear the course, we don't need top legislate actions for all.
We should also yellow tag every car that fails to clear the course and requires external assistance to do so. It seems to be the same cars each time that end up stopping on course....
When we pull our chute we have to then wash it fully and let it air dry before repacking or it wont open reliably. Thats a 2-3 hour job. Not a problem if we needed it but it would be a waste if we were just throwing it overboard to make big brother happy.
But to reiterate, I would 100% support a "clear the course quickly" rule based on the speed on which they actually cleared the course, with yellow tags for those who just cant make it happen.
Regards,
John
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Dave,
with regards to El Mo procedure, it is mandatory to use chute if car is so equipped.
It is my understanding that this was optional in years past, not now.
John
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Dave,
My son and I run an F/SR # 662. We have to run a chute at El Mirage because the record in our class is over 160 and we use it every pass. While the chute is on the car at Bonneville, we consider it an emergency device like a fire bottle and don't deploy it as a matter of course. We have no trouble slowing and pulling off in an timely manner.
I am also partners in car #700 C/BFMR. On that car the driver uses the chute every run no matter what.
My point is that one size does not fit all and I am glad we do not have to wear out the chute on the street roadster dragging it a quarter of a mile to the return road every pass.
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You guys are making some excellent response and are making sense, yes my main thing was to clear the course as quick as possible, I have been racing at Muroc, El Mirage and Bonneville for 20 years now and we always use our chute, after a run we always shake the salt out of our chute, repack it with no problems and race again, never having a chute failure. I do know some cars must use a chute for safety or they will spin at speeds over 200 mph, in 2006 I drove my brothers Pantera and at 180mph at the 5 mile point I got off the power and instantly spun out, later we found you must power into the chute to stabilize the suspension a Pantera, Now on the other hand my Avanti is a longer wheel base and not mid-engine, so I can get off the power and take the load of the engine's connecting rods, coast then deploy the chute with no problems, but at speeds on only up to 216 mph we always use our chute to reduce roll out and take an early turn out to the return road, thanks guys for your remarks, Dave
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I thought the new wording of the rules was aimed at cars that are chute equipped but for whatever reason run less then 175mph on any given run. In the past I thought the rule was that if you are chute equipped, you have to use it every run regardless of how fast you run. Seems like if you can't clear the course fast enough without using your chute, then you should be warned that you are taking too long to clear the course and if you persist in taking too long, you should be required to use the chute.
Also if the part about using the brakes to heavily damages the course is true, then certainly chute deployment over a certain speed should be required.
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In the #416 pickup we do not run a chute. Record is 164 and change. Tim runs at Elmo and the salt. I have never been told that we do not clear the course fast enough. It is common courtesy to GTFOOTW!
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Back to our roadster . . .
No front brakes, just bad aero.
Saw the times on a competitor with full road-racing brakes that I believe got a 200+ time in the quarter, less all the way thru including a 5-mile exit speed. Now there's the problem.
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Stan, my Avanti does not have front brakes either, I don't want to take the chance of the front brakes coming on too hard compared to the rear brakes, thus causing a spin, and with my car weighing 4400 lbs. (700lbs ballast) the little rear brakes on my Ford 9" rear end don't do much for stopping my heavy car, so we just use the chute to get off the track as early as possible and coast pretty good on the return road. Guys again, its interesting to hear your comments, I hope some of this discussion will help new racers at Bonneville on how the set up their car and operate on the salt. Thanks Dave
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Okay on what I've read, but now to the personal aspect of this question for me.
I've been offered a ride in a B/STR at WoS. I don't know what the car's owner will want me to do with the chute, but I'd like to be very clear on what the SCTA Bonneville rules tell me to do. The record is over 200 although I'm doubting that I'll go anywhere near it on my first runs in the car - maybe never at all.
Am I required to use the chute by the rules? Is it an option that the owner and I can discuss (for my personal edification)? Or is chute use at WoS in September 2013 an option based on whatever variables at the instant of whether-to-deploy-or-not?
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Slim, don't just jump in a car and try to go 200, use the DL guide and go up in 25 mph increments... I would pop the chute at 150, 175 and 200, even if you are driving a brick, it is good to know what the chute will do if you need it.
We pop ours every run, even rookie runs, so the driver knows what to expect.
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Chutes react different at higer speeds in some cases, it's alway a good thing to use them, if they get a little salty rinse them in a bucket of water, they dry in minutes in the heat at Bonneville. Things can go wrong even in a turn off or turn out as it's hard to judge speed at times and heading to the return road can be critical with other vehicles on it.Have seen a lot of crazy things over the years. Safety first.
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Stainless and Glen -- I agree that I should use the chute if for no other reason than to experience the hit and to learn when and how and so on. I had planned to do so - unless I received specific instructions not to do so, and if that's the case -- to ask pretty seriously why he didn't want me to use it. If it's something like "we don't want to wash it or wear it out" I'll use the information I've already gathered on this thread to tell him why I do want to throw out the laundry. Thanks very much.
As for the driver licensing pattern of increasing speeds -- yep, I figure I'll be doing that, too. I've got an A license -- for bikes. Why do I think that there might just be a tiny bit of difference 'tween a two wheeler and a four wheeler? :roll: :roll:
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I am using the chute every time as my speed increases. Just because it acts one way at 140 doesn't mean it won't change at 150 and above. I want little surprises, not HUUUUUGE ones. :wink: Wayno
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Slim, yes the roadster will be new to you, ask the owner if you can step the speeds up in 25mph (as stated in previous statement) and use the chute so you won't have any surprises, Roadsters have a higher CG so testing at lower speeds is the way to go, then verify (ask the starter to tell the Tower to watch your car during the chute deployment) the chute does not lift the rear wheel or front wheels if mounted wrong on the car, if my memory serves me right (I'm 74 yrs old, so it could be a senior moment) but this last race at Speed Week someone saw one of the accidents that totaled the race car and said that when the chute came out it lifted the rear wheels off the salt, then a spin and crash occurred. If that is true, I wonder if they ever tested the chute a slower speeds to see if the chute was OK or not. Done correctly a parachute is your friend, the bottom line is for folks to think about this subject to ensure they are safe to race another day, thanks guys for your comments, hope new guys ask questions from the old timers, take care, Dave :cheers:
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I was the course steward at the 5-mile on Course #2 at Speedweek. As the #1 (Team McLeish Bros. GT-6) car came thru the lights there, he popped the chute. I didn't notice if the wheels came off the ground, but it rolled upside-down immediately after the chute blossomed, so that may well be what happened. However, the car wasn't totalled. It looked fairly intact as it was towed past my position on its way to the tower.
Two other cars were totalled. I watched Stainless' accident as it happened (at the 4-mile on Course #2), and it wasn't caused by chute deployment. I didn't see Jonny's accident (which took place at the same time as McLeish's, but on Course #1), but from what I heard, it wasn't chute-related, either.
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"Trimmers", thanks for your update on what you saw on race course #2, this info helps other racers, take care, Dave
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We pitted next to the McLeish crew last week. I'll let them tell the story, but I know the car suffered relatively minor damage. In fact - Derek said that other than sanding the paint off the roof and wrinkling it a bit -- the car was unhurt and could be raced again that day. Take his comments with a grain of salt (there was plenty in the car after the upside-down-excursion), but the chute was deployed and might have added to the factors in getting upside down.
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Chute deployment and attach points to the vehicle are critical, The tow line length can be a factor as speed increases and must be in clean air. Turbublance from the rear of the vehicle are a factor. Last year The Hanna Moore streamliner had chute issues until they added extra length to the tow line. The chute size is also critical and if to large can cause lift. On the Vesco liners we have a forward and rear cameras to study the vehicle after the chute deployment.
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We don't have front brakes, and pop the chute every run. It makes slowing down easier, and the car handles better than if we just use the rear brakes.
Most of our runs have been in the 160's, with only one over 175. There is plenty of time to pack the chute in line, so I really don't understand why most people wouldn't want to use one. JMHO
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Before the new rule came out in 2012 that you didn't need to have to use the chute, it was at the driver's choice to use or not, before 2012 the old rule required you to use the chute if your car's class record was over 175mph, and if the chute didn't come out, Lee Kennedy would contact the racer and research the chute failure. Being a timer at Bonneville, using the chute will reduce the time on the course and have the turnout sooner so we can get more racers on the track, instead of waiting all suited up on a hot day in line, the reason I started this topic was to see if the majority of racers want to stay with the new rule in 2012 or go back to the old rule, my vote is for going back to the old rule where you must use your chute, thanks for your time, Dave Bloomberg (Avanti Kid Racing, car #1961)