Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: hotrod on July 26, 2013, 12:20:28 PM
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I approach this topic with a bit of caution. I don't wish this to be a thread full of rants and bad blood but on the same token I think it is time for a frank discussion among the photographers and even the car owners about good ethics among photo journalists consideration of the photographers needs to get those shots you love to look at later.
Taking pictures on the salt flats and other land racing venues has more than enough challenges that we need to make a concerted effort not to unnecessarily interfere with other photographers who are trying to do their job but have a different “view point” and using differing methods to get their images.
I have noticed a gradual deterioration in professional respect among photographers and videographers over the last decade or so and I think it is time for a frank discussion regarding what is good professional photographer behavior and how to make sure we are not screwing up someone else's shot of a life time. There is so much going on that someone else may be capturing a unique event just feet from you that you are totally unaware is happening.
In years past, I remember when still photographers would instinctively glance over their shoulder as they took a point of view and ask other photographers nearby if they were “in their shot”. The photographers respected each other enough to make a conscious effort to avoid stepping into another persons shot or blocking a viewpoint. If everyone works together we all get better shots.
Many still photographers and videographer prefer the up close tight shots, and like to hover around a car getting shots of wheels and headers or an in your face shot of the driver, but recently they have lost that sense that they should only briefly intrude into that sacred shot space near the car and then get out so other photographers can get their shots.
This seems especially common with the videographers. I realize you need to get up close to get your tight shots and do your slow pans down the length of the car, but take a second to notice the 15 still photographers standing behind you with cameras at the ready patiently waiting for you to get out of their shots so they can get a wide view of the car and the crew doing their thing.
It is a real pain to have to wait 15 minutes or more to grab a shot in a 3 second window while the videographer goes to get a new battery or put the camera on the tripod before he/she steps back into the shot with the camera on the tripod to then sets up a close up pan or something.
Same goes for the still photographers who like the artsy shots with up close oblique views of the cars. Take your shot then look over your shoulder and clear the frame for a bit so the wide and long shooters can get their shots. Good photographers only need 20-30 seconds of clear view to get several shots, if the folks who like tight shots will give them a break and create a clear window to take the shot.
On several occasions I have anticipated an event like the closing of the canopy and a thumbs up from the driver and set up to get good tight telephoto shot of the driver looking up at his crew, waited 5-10 minutes for the activity to get to that moment only to have some tight shooter with out a single glance over his shoulder step right in the middle of the shot and poach the image I was trying to get.
On a side note, the same applies to the spectators, if you want to see great shots of the cars, occasionally look around and make sure you are not blocking a good shot. About 30% of the general public retain a bit of awareness of their surroundings and will actually stop and pause a moment to prevent walking into a shot. If they do, I ALWAYS thank them for their consideration!
Just a little reminder that you are not the only photographer out there and not all other photographers and videographers have the same viewpoint or image in mind that you do. I like to do wide shots and panorama images that encompass the whole environment and use a telephoto to get the tight shots when I can. Your feet and a Nike zoom are not the only way to get those tight shots. ;)
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Hot Rod,
thank you very much for this comments....
I would have a hard time with my bad English to write this in a polite way....I always sound very hard...which is never my idea...
you be right,
especially in the last three years we got so much "photographer" around the starting line....who are not taking care....this are the once I called in the other thread
"one day (press) photographer".....they run in your view....block your view...or simply stays by the racer after they done the picture.....
see the picture you like to do.....go forward...make the shots....clear the place....and look behind you that you not run into a other photographer views....
Hope we will have this year more luck....
Hot Rod, thanks again to bring this thread here.
Looking for to seeing you at the salt....
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I'm looking forward to seeing you too PorkPie!
There is a related ethical issue here that we might as well touch base on for the car owners and spectators.
Under current copyright law an image is copyrighted the moment it is taken. All images are copyrighted by someone.
If you "borrow" an image you get in an email or see on a web page and post it on your facebook page, it is YOUR responsibility to provide a photo credit, even if the original photo is not marked by the photographer. If you want photographers to provide you good pictures of your car do not abuse them by using their images without some form of credit.
The right way to do it is to ask permission to post the image in some other venue than it appears, if for what ever reason, such as you do not know who took the picture you should provide a reference link back to the source of the image, or better yet send an email and try to find out the proper photo credit information. Photographers are judged by the quality of their work that appears in the public domain. If you steal a crappy low resolution image and post it even with photo credit information you are doing a disservice to the photographer, who in all likelihood would have provided you a higher resolution copy if you had just bothered to ask, and expressed a willingness to attach photo credits.
Mechanics don't like it when folks take tools out of their tool boxes without asking permission and photographers have pretty much the same view of folks who poach images without asking or providing any photo credits or links back to the original source.
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Larry,I think you bring up a good point about 'borrowing' images! I've never felt bad about 'borrowing' images of my own car, as most times we were never asked if we minded being photographed.
I now think, that when we take the car to a public venue, we have to expect it, and therefore give the photographer their due credit!
Anyway, I'm excited to see the shots you emailed about, and we'll see you on the salt!
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Thanks for posting this, Hotrod. It very well states the opinion of most photographers who shoot at the starting lines. Generally, we try to move back from the line as we move downcourse at a 45 degree angle. This seems to work pretty well and allows everyone with a media vest to get a good shot. However, those who, as you've described, jump in to get a closeup right at a critical moment are the bane of the rest of us. Like you, I've found the backside of some rude people in shots that I'd spent quite a while waiting for. It doesn't take long to look over one's shoulder to make sure that they're not getting into someone else's shot.
Some of these folks are credentialed photographers; some are hangers-on who've managed to get vests. Those in the second category won't read this and they'll still do what they want, without any concept of professional cooperation. There are also the spectators who figure that nobody will mind if they just "get one shot"...which might take...again, as you've mentioned...4-5 minutes, without any regard for anyone else who might be doing the photography with the blessing of the sanctioning body.
The others that kinda fall into this category are the spectators who left their brains at a casino in Wendover....and might have a coupla small kids or dogs with 'em and "ease" out beyond the starting lines. I know that the SCTA/USFRA folks at the starting line do their very best to keep this under control, but when I see some goofball wander up to a roadster or lakester with open headers or exposed engine trailing a 4 or 5 year-old kid (and looking thru the camera at the car and not watching the kid), I just shudder to think of what might happen if the car might lose control or toss a rod thru the side of the block with said kid up close and personal.
Finally, I appreciate the mention that the photos we shoot of cars at a public venue are our intellectual property. There's a whole lotta legalese stuff about who owns photos of stuff shot on publicly-accessible grounds, but the bottom line is that on the salt, the credentialed photographer or his/her employer is the ultimate owner. There's no requirement for releases unless they're of people under certain circumstances. Anyway, I've posted photos on LandRacing only to see them show up within hours on FaceBook...without any credit to the photographer. I don't put heavy watermarks on my photos, although I do some watermarking. But at the very least, it would be nice to see "Photo by..." added to wherever they're posted.
That's my 2 cents' worth.
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Two things from me.
I've tried to become more cognisant of the photographer's identity and work - when putting photos on this website and in the Gallery. If I'm the one that's taken the shots -- I don't put any kind of name on 'em. Maybe I should learn to do that - to help cut down on the number of photos that get copied from the Gallery for private (or who knows - public?) use. I know that we usually post only smaller file/lower resolution - even thumbnails -- but I also know that the enlarged images are only a mouseclick away. When we post photos from others -- like Pork Pie and Ray and Larry/Hotrod -- I'm careful to make sure they get credit. In fact -- those gus get special sections of the Gallery, both to make it easy to locate their work - and to allow them to have more control over what is posted and available. I've frequently been asked to allow someone take shots out of the Gallery for this or that (usually commercial) application, but in those cases I request credits be appended to the used shot, if not payment of a royalty to the photographer. I don't know for sure -- but I do know that I have NOT been swamped with thank-yous from our pro photographers when they receive checks from someone that's use a photo.
I also know that there's on heck of a lot of frustration on the part of a photographer who is careful to do things correctly, post his photos with watermarks or whatever -- and he still gets nothing, not even a thanks, for his efforts.
Okay, that's one. Number two is different but still about photographers. Tony Huntimer is putting together a Saturday night picnic, in the parking area of the new Museum, to host the photographers at SpeedWeek. He says it's a first-time effort and won't be a "meeting" as much as a place to have a slider (his word) and shoot the breeze. I don't know if we'll go to that picnic -- but I urge all of the photographers on this site - and especially on this subject - to think about going both to support Tony's effort and to maybe start a discussion on the rules and lack thereof about photographing at Bonneville. You might not get anywhere and might not get cooperation from the rank and file amateurs -- but at least you'll have made a start at putting some kind of order into the mess we now have.
Thanks to all of you that take photos to preserve that aspect of land speed racing for history. You guys do good work!! :cheers: :cheers:
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I'd like to make another point about photographer etiquette, while the topic is open. Not directed at any of the professionals, as you guys all seem to understand this, but maybe some amateurs will read it and get a clue.
At the Bub meet, multiple times every day for the last several years (it seems like anyway) I have been confronted with situations where a photographer or videographer has set up on the return road, or in the staging areas, in such a way as to be directly in the path of my or another competitors line of travel. Even to the point of blocking my bike from getting out from under my pit tent. When asked to kindly relocate, they frequently return a blast of attitude, sometimes even refusing to move, stating "I need to get this shot".
These folks need to understand that the entire reason we are all there is for the machines to run, not for them to get pictures. If no one were there to run, there would be no pictures. A little respect would go a long way here, and being aware of the situation around them would show that respect.
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I am impressed good discussion going on here, and some important topics coming up for discussion.
Slim, technically the only person who can give permission to use a photograph is the copyright owner which in most cases is the photographer who shot the picture unless they designate someone to act as their agent.
If folks look at the above posts each of the photographers who have posted include signature links to their web pages or in their land racing profile, for contact.
The proper way to handle that is to direct the person requesting use of the photo to the photographer who has the image in his gallery.
The fees for using photography can range from 0 to hundreds of dollars depending on usage. If a commercial advertising agent wants to use an image in a large ad campaign the fair market value of that image might be many hundreds of dollars. Rights to use the photo usually expressly state how the image can be used and list restrictions on maximum resolution, retention of photo credits and such and all those need to be negotiated directly with the copyright owner.
On the other hand a photographer might agree to very low or no cost usage for the exact same photo in a situation where he is willing to waive normal fees, for example if save the salt came to me and asked to use one of my photographs I would most likely offer it to them for free with appropriate express statements of what photo rights that they could use. For example I might limit them to a certain time period or image resolution or a specific fund raising campaign in exchange for the no fee usage.
If the image is a once in a life time image that cannot be reproduced at any cost, like my shot of the Speed Demon spitting out its turbine impeller as it entered the speed traps on a potential 400 mph run, then the exclusivity of the image greatly increases its market value, even though I might sell a nearly identical image of the same car for a very average cost.
Unfortunately over time the web has fostered a perception that images are free and can be copied and re-posted at will. Yes we all do it, we find a picture of a really ugly dog and post it on our face book page and everyone laughs and we never think about the technical violation of copyright involved. In practical fact the owner of that image could if they choose make an issue out of it but typical incidental copying and reposting is understood to be a "fair use" of the image even though it falls slightly outside the technical definition of fair use under copyright.
If however we know that the image was shot by a photographer who either professionally or as an amateur presents him/herself as a "photographer" you can and should assume that he is not freely releasing the image into the public domain, especially if on his/her web site you see advisories such as "All images are copy right xyz" or "all rights reserved" or (c) those are legally defined statements that the person making that assertion owns the rights for reproduction of the image that fall outside fair use doctrine.
What is fair use? In its simplest form it is one of 3 uses which the public good is better served by wide distribution of the image. The three aspects usually used are:
"is it news"
"is it educational" (ie pictures I have posted here showing parachute mounts or other safety related images"
"is it incidental as a minor illustration in an article or commentary"
etc.
If on the other hand the image usage leads to some form of gain or advantage to the person displaying it such as marketing a product or as an illustration on a poster or T shirt , then it is not fair use and should have a formal release for that usage with the exact rights licensed and any restrictions on usage that the copyright owner might wish to stipulate.
For example the images I submitted to Land Speed Louise for her consideration in her soon to be released book, she required I sign a copyright release giving her legal permission for the intended usage in her book.
All anyone is asking for is that folks try to play fair with intellectual property rights that the photographers both legally have and that there is a moral obligation to give them fair credit for their work. That compensation can be in any form the photographer is willing to accept. In my case for Save the Salt my compensation would be the "smile factor" that I am helping out a good cause, which is the same compensation I got for donating images for use in the SCTA rookie book.
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These folks need to understand that the entire reason we are all there is for the machines to run, not for them to get pictures. If no one were there to run, there would be no pictures. A little respect would go a long way here, and being aware of the situation around them would show that respect.
Good point and one of the reasons I strongly avoid hovering near the racers as they get ready to push off. I consider that last 20-30 ft zone to the starting line a no go zone, as it could cost someone his life if your distraction to "get your shot" causes a crew member to miss a vital safety check!
A couple years ago I watched as some duffer photographer placed himself between the push truck and the race car to get a shot down the track after the crew were loading in the truck and the push truck driver had to honk his horn to get the guy to move so he could push off his running race car before it over heated on the line.
I also avoid getting in the crews face while they are working on the car in the pits and often ask "mind if I take a picture inside the car" or something similar. On several occasions I have been told "no" they were in the middle of doing something critical like packing chutes etc. and come back in 5 min or what ever.
The only reason that those cars and bikes are there is to run down the course and anything you do that screws up or interferes with that privilege that they "paid for" is wrong!
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A lot of good and important comments.
About copyrights and the issue of using the picture on commercial media's or social nets.
For myself...to each picture CD I give away is a instruction letter....
it tells that the picture are ONLY for private use....which means to make prints for himself and for crew member....this picture getting NO watermark on
NO USE in any magazine, on websites (also not team websites) and especially on social nets like Facebook, Flickr....NO KIND of Commercial use.
If some like to use it commercial or on the web HE HAS TO CONTACT ME IN ADVANCE and I make than the decision if I like to get a royalty....sometimes when I know what the "customer" like to do with the picture....I prepare him the one with the right data size.
AND I ask a for a donation for my work and P&P plus material......just to cover a small percentage of my expenses to come to the salt.....unfortunately I'm not living in the states and especially race teams from overseas knows the cost to come over the pond.....this donation is not specified....when a racer who runs his vehicle on a real shoestring budget I'm happy when I got from him only a couple of dollars.....if they are swimming in money it could be more :roll:
But my experience looks not that well at it could be....
- no thank you....when you ask if they got the CD....oh, yes I got them....nice picture...
- no donation....for what....is sometimes the answer when you request something
interested on this....I'm getting from the low budget teams very often the big donation....and the wealthy are the one to forget the thanks...
more worse
- I found my picture one to one on Facebook with the original data size of 10-12 MB....unblocked...could be download from everyone...when I spoke to the owner of the Facebook account he starts to be aggressive and nasty....by the way...he had also given no donation....
- I found my picture on team websites....one team owner had done all 96 picture he had gotten on his website with NO CREDIT....when I told him that I'm not happy with this, he gave me the s h i t.....
- I found my picture in magazines...without a credit to me.....for one magazine I found out that the team owner who gave the picture to the magazine was paid for...but the money never showed up on my place.
This are some example of bad experience I had over the years.....
I have also to say....there are LOTS OF POSITIVE examples....teams and people who give great donations....and helped when I was in a bad situation....there are some they gave me money, also they had not gotten picture, they just mention "that you can come back to the salt".....and there are some who done much more for me...they gave me the gift to turn a dream into reality...
And these are the one who let me coming back again and again every year to make the picture for the racers.....yes, on the end of the year I'm bankrupt....who cares....
Important is that I be out there....on the end of the measured mile.....and frame the racers....
Sorry, that this was also a very private note to this thread......Hot Rod and Ray the Rat got it as just the facts.....but I had the interest to tell the experience from someone who is 30+ years at the salt and 17 years behind the camera for the racers (before I done only picture for myself).
Maybe it can help to get a better understanding between racers and photographers....and as Rocky Robinson wrote a while ago in his column....the photographers are the once who frame the history...otherwise there would be only words.....
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Starting line....
as a photographer you have to see that you can "disturb" the starting activities or not....some racers & teams can't get you around.....other it is exactly opposite...some drivers likes that you come over and shake your hands or like to give you the thumb up.....
but a experience photographer will see this, what he can do or not....
Meanwhile, I was also now behind the wheel.....for myself....I had no problem with if someone was coming along...done picture....shake my hand...I concentrate myself for my drive from the inside....yes...and I slept on the starting line.....
....but this is me....and other driver/rider are different.....they can't need any kind of disturb....the heartbeat is up on top level....they are focusing on everything....but this is their way.....
...and as a photographer you have to respect this....
...and if you can't go close....use the long gun and you can get your picture, too...without disturbing
To all, have a safe and successful season at the salt....
I will be back for the 2013 season....so see you soon
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Thanks Hot Rod and Pork Pie....as an owner and driver don't come up to us 2 back and suited up. My son and I both "drive" the run when we are close and know not to disturb each other. I also don't honk if you get in the way. I will hit you, my son is nicer than I.
If someone wants info from us, impound (if we are lucky) or the pits are fine. I too have no problem sleeping waiting even at SpeedWeek.. It's the way I stay calm. . . . Looking forward to a spectating week and will probably wish I had the roadster there.............JD
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Hey Guys,
Won't be long now. Thanks to all who have posted comments on behavior and ethics. Great comments.
My experience has been mostly positive. HOWEVER, I do long distance stills and video ( at least try) and last year on two instances some yellow shirt moved my camera, lens and tripod out of their way ( back to starting line) after I had taken much time setting up out of the way of the starting line shooters and racers. Jim Jensen told me that I was set up properly ( not in line of fire or safety issues) . I do my best to be out of line of sight but need to be able to focus 1-3 miles down the track. I did manage to get some good shot of spins ( Blowfish for one) and wobbles in the wet spot.
I guess i should be thankful my stuff wasn't stolen. Other than these instances, the photographic experiences are priceless on the salt. Thanks to all the cool staff and media.
There, i cleared my mind. See you all in a couple weeks.
Cameradude, aka Larry Crosby :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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Many thanks to the professionals for the wholly appropriate reminders, especially with respect to generally getting in the way at the start line. I like to think I take care not get in people's shots, that I do look before I leap and that I stay out of the way of somebody's preparations but it doesn't hurt to get a reminder now and again.
We all like to see great pictures, please keep them coming.
I hope to see you all in just a few days (yes, I'm counting)...
Best regards and thanks,
Jim (keen amateur photographer at best)
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Someone should put some wheels on this soapbox.
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Mrs. Midget has worked for years with professional photographers, and has a knack for catching some pretty darned good shots herself. The first project I did when we moved into our house 20 years ago was to build her a darkroom.
One of the ultimate delights of having her as a wife and as a "teammate" is watching her get the shots she gets. In fact, one of my favorite photos of her is her at 7:00 AM catching the sunrise at Bonneville - the photo is not up to her high standards - I took it - but she's doing something she loves at a place that I adore -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/DSCN3798.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Midget%20Build/DSCN3798.jpg.html)
Watching her has made me keenly aware of what it takes to put together a well composed photo, especially when other people's focus is on the same thing she's trying to capture.
And a photographer's work goes largely unheralded. Two other shots I've caught are of two very good professional photographers on the salt, doing what they do best -
Simon Davidson - working with Gene Winfield -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN4331.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/DSCN4331.jpg.html)
And, of course, Pork Pie - who I expect might be wearing a different hat this year -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN3394.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/DSCN3394.jpg.html)
I'm much more aware of photographers today than I was 25 years ago. Their work is what fired my imagination, thumbing through Hot Rod Magazine, or Car and Driver, or Rod and Custom. I probably wouldn't have built a car if not for photographs that influenced me early on.
Thanks to all - pros and amateurs alike, who work to really capture the essence of what we do. I promise to stay out of your way.
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Seeing as there are some mediacredited and professional photographers commenting on here thought I'd ask a quick question. Where can you go that I can't? I'm coming over with my wife and son and I'm a rather keen photographer of anything fast and noisy (F1, airshows, Le Mans, IoM TT, Indy car (as it was), etc) so am really looking forward to coming over. I've hired an RV so expect to have some shots in the pits, at the start line and down the course. But where can a media shirt/pass get you that I can't? I certainly don't want to face the wrath of anyone, or get in the way of any shots (I'm used to looking behind me and can almost sense a camera being lifted) but do want to try and make the most of being there.
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Phil, most of the folks taking pictures at the salt are just like you and me... regular folks taking cool memory fotos. Yep, I've walked into shots, but I try not to, I've had folks walk into my shots... shit happens :| There are a lot of folks taking pictures... almost everyone you see will have a camera or camera phone taking pictures of all the cool stuff.
Press folks get to go to the tower, but they can't get closer to the track than anyone else... thus they have that great equipment that takes excellent pictures of cars going 250+ MPH from a quarter mile away.
So everyone bring your cameras, take your memory fotos, just pay a little attention to your surroundings, don't stand in the same place for 10 minutes waiting for the crowd to clear for that perfect shot while JD is trying to move his car forward in line so the "line Nazi" doesn't yell at him.
It is another chance to demonstrate the Golden Rule in action... :cheers:
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Where can you go that I can't?
The general public is limited to shooting pictures from behind the starting line as the cars push off. The credentialed photographers are allowed to position in front of the starting line, in a relatively safe zone off to the side so they can get pictures as the cars push off from the line. There is considerable risk to anyone beyond the line as cars occasionally have mechanical failures or spin as they try to accelerate off the line, so no one is allowed very far from the line and near the track.
We have found that if the credentialed photographers shooting in this area, draw an imaginary line at 45 degrees from the center line of the course and take positions along that line out to about 50-100 ft from the line. Everyone has a clear view of the cars as they come off the line and also the farther from the line you are, the farther back you are from the course. On the slick salt it is surprising how violently some cars can spin and even roll over and occasionally as they spin parts come off the car, and the cars occasionally come back toward the line a ways as the driver tries to get control of them. On one occasion I saw a wheel come off a car and it traveled several hundred feet from where the car had the problem just off the line.
The credentialed photographers know to never turn their back on a car under power, and try to stay aware of what is going on around them. We also try to watch each others backs The general public tends not to pay attention to running cars and has a tendency to gradually creep forward as they each try to get a better shot than the person next to them. This is constant burden for the starting line crew as they have to frequently stop what they are doing and have the uncredentialed photographers move back behind the line where they will be much less likely to get in trouble if a car has a problem.
As I understand it, this is mostly driven by insurance and safety concerns. The crowd of photographers becomes a major problem when the high profile cars run.
People forget that many of these cars are making well over 1000 hp and running blowers, turbos and stiff loads of nitro and things do break and come off race cars in all types of racing. Landracing is no exception.
The credentialed photographers accept this risk and agree to follow various access rules.
The general public cannot drive their cars in the pit area, but the accredited photographers like the race teams can drive in the pits and on the return road between the pits and the starting line, and set up just off the return road if they follow very strict guide lines about where they position.
That is off the top of my head.
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Last year Nancy was on the bike at the line of the long course -- leaving on her first run of the day. The crowds always seem to be bigger than ever when the pilot is a good-looking GIRL on a fast bike -- so sure enough, they - including about a zillion photographers - was stretched out about fifty feet in front of the start line. She spun the rear wheel and went sideways at about 45 degrees -- right towards a big bunch of spectators. Fortunately for them - but not for her -- she high-sided and crashed before hitting the viewers.
There's proof that no one that doesn't understand what might happen should be beyond the start line.
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Last year Nancy was on the bike at the line of the long course -- leaving on her first run of the day. The crowds always seem to be bigger than ever when the pilot is a good-looking GIRL on a fast bike -- so sure enough, they - including about a zillion photographers - was stretched out about fifty feet in front of the start line. She spun the rear wheel and went sideways at about 45 degrees -- right towards a big bunch of spectators. Fortunately for them - but not for her -- she high-sided and crashed before hitting the viewers.
There's proof that no one that doesn't understand what might happen should be beyond the start line.
Jon, I was up front of the starting line to frame Nancy with the camera....when the bike start to spun I done the camera down and run 2 yards backwards to give her more space.....
what really surprised me in this moment....with me there was only two other who moved backwards...all the other...mostly spectator with their cameras simple stayed on the place...this people wasn't aware what was going on.
and what shocked me....how much people had done picture from Nancy after she crashed...USA today mentality....
They was more interested to get a picture than to make space for the ambulance......
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[Nomex undies and firesuit on in preparation for the flames]
When I was in the military, there was a saying: "There's always that 10 percent that doesn't get the word." At SW, it was more like 50 percent. It was a major aggravation. Out of frustration, I started getting shots of the more blatant "impolite" people. (Impolite is like calling Atilla the Hun a fun-loving guy on a horse.)
SCTA provided a "Spectators' Triangle" that was supposed to allow non-credentialed photogs to get a chance to place themselves in such a way as to get a decent shot of the cars/trucks/bikes leaving the line. Only one problem. After the first half of the first day (more or less) it was largely ignored. There were several of us who tried to herd the sheeple (particularly those without vests) back behind the line, but with very little success. I've attached a photo of one of the more blatant examples. In that shot is a woman kneeling down to get the what in her mind must be the only photo of the Speed Demon as it started an aborted record return...there was that little problem with that pesky cockpit hatch cover latch and the run was aborted before the 2. Anyway, I (along with others) tried to shoo people back where they belonged, but her reply was very blonde-like (she must dye her hair): "It's ok. I know the driver." :-o
The second attached photo shows a guy who took particular exception to my efforts to get him back to the 45 degree line. He asked if I was in charge of all the photographers in a tone of voice that suggested that I'd insulted his royal personage by a mere commoner requesting one of the royal family to scrub a toilet. That one really pissed me off, so I showed Jim Jensen and Ron Jolliffe the shot of him and the female videographer within 10 feet of the car on either side. At first, Jim didn't believe me...but his eyebrows raised significantly when he saw the image on the LCD of the camera.
In spite of all our efforts, there was zero crowd control...except for the Turbinator's last run. And after the official had moved all the vested photogs back, the amateurs moved in. The reason we were moved back was to keep us out of the danger of the turbine exhaust. Too bad none of the amateurs' hair got toasted off.
Several of the more experienced photographers have discussed the possibility of a 2-tier credentialing format. Those who have been around for a while and know what to do and what not to do could, after approval, act as assistant course officials to help SCTA with the situation with newbies and tourists, etc. I hope it gets some momentum and goes somewhere. Tony and Chick Huntimer have offered to do what they can to start the ball rolling. If possible, let's stand behind 'em (at a 45 degree angle, of course) and see if we can offer a solution rather than just complaining.
Last thing. I just put my photos from SW on my server and added a section to illustrate the point: http://www.chevyasylum.com/lsr/bsf2013/01-sw/03-badmanners/Welcome.html (http://www.chevyasylum.com/lsr/bsf2013/01-sw/03-badmanners/Welcome.html) I realize that some of the photos in that group are possibly marginal as far as violations of media guidelines...but they serve the purpose of demonstrating that no one was trying to do anything about it...except for a few of us.
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[Nomex undies and firesuit on in preparation for the flames]....Several of the more experienced photographers have discussed the possibility of a 2-tier credentialing format.....
I missed last year, but this year it seemed like every other person had on a 'press' jersey. I think the problem ones are people who aren't land speed people and probably never read these forums. Good luck guys......
Now off topic if anyone has a picture of our car with the chute out down-course would you please PM me. Thanks,
Sum
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I don't join the crowd out in front of the line for photographing or anything - even when I'm crewing with Nancy or anyone else. I respect the start line just as if it were made of sharpened steel teeth and bars. The starters are kind enough to remind me if I wander too far, and being a racer I know to respect them. too bad the spectators don't have that respect. I take most of the photos at the line -- when the vehicle is three or four back in staging and there's no hurry and much less stress on the crew and driver/rider. the photos are, if anything, better than the run of the mill snapshots taken at the line by those spectators -- if for no other reason that none but either the highly skilled or dang lucky get a shot that shows something of the motion or leave exhaust or something. Is there a fence at the line - opened in the center for the racer track, but other wise there? I think so - and people just walk around it. Maybe it is time to put "monitors" at the ends of the fences to herd the stupid ones back to their proper areas, and nobody not wearing an accredited badge is allowed out in front of the fence. I said badge because the green vests are easy enough to counterfit - not that lots of folks would even bother. And if it were announced at the drivers meeting that photography won't be allowed from in front of the fence, and that teams and crews are invited to enforce the rule -- maybe that'd help. Any other ways to keep 'em in line?
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[Nomex undies and firesuit on in preparation for the flames]....Several of the more experienced photographers have discussed the possibility of a 2-tier credentialing format.....
I missed last year, but this year it seemed like every other person had on a 'press' jersey. I think the problem ones are people who aren't land speed people and probably never read these forums. Good luck guys......
Now off topic if anyone has a picture of our car with the chute out down-course would you please PM me. Thanks,
Sum
Hi bro. First, I wish I could tell ya that I had a chute shot, but I don't. Pork Pie may have one.
Next, as I understand it, each team gets a Press vest. No qualification as a motorsport photographer required, just buy a digital camera and yer off to the races, so to speak. I dunno how many times I've been lectured at media rep meetings about behavior on pit road or near the track...but I know many of the people there didn't have a clue.
Enuff sed.
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I don't join the crowd out in front of the line for photographing or anything - even when I'm crewing with Nancy or anyone else. I respect the start line just as if it were made of sharpened steel teeth and bars. The starters are kind enough to remind me if I wander too far, and being a racer I know to respect them. too bad the spectators don't have that respect.
Amen! Just as (in my mind) it should be.
I take most of the photos at the line -- when the vehicle is three or four back in staging and there's no hurry and much less stress on the crew and driver/rider. the photos are, if anything, better than the run of the mill snapshots taken at the line by those spectators -- if for no other reason that none but either the highly skilled or dang lucky get a shot that shows something of the motion or leave exhaust or something. Is there a fence at the line - opened in the center for the racer track, but other wise there? I think so - and people just walk around it.
Bulls-eye. It's not a fence, but yellow tape...same thing that's supposed to keep people from wandering into the staging lanes. And yes, people walk around it, over it, under it or break it. I have to cross it if I wanna get shots down course a hundred feet or so...but I'm wearing a vest and watching the other photogs. I've heard complaints about the people who set up Easy-Ups along the staging lane, right up to the start line. I dunno what to say about that other than to note that some folks don't were bothered by it.
Maybe it is time to put "monitors" at the ends of the fences to herd the stupid ones back to their proper areas, and nobody not wearing an accredited badge is allowed out in front of the fence. I said badge because the green vests are easy enough to counterfit - not that lots of folks would even bother. And if it were announced at the drivers meeting that photography won't be allowed from in front of the fence, and that teams and crews are invited to enforce the rule -- maybe that'd help. Any other ways to keep 'em in line?
These may all be good ideas. I hate to admit it, but I've counterfeited/faked vests and wristbands and jumped fences at other venues. Not often....but...well it was a long time ago and...never mind. It's not the folks with vests that I found to be the big problem. It's the spectators/tourists. The only way I know of to control that element is with people dedicated to that task.
Check the attached photo. Three photographers, none of whom have vests and one guy brought his own cushion to sit on. All of 'em in front of the starting line. And an official chatting with someone in the lane. Another wonna them "I shudder to think" deals...the guy sitting on the cushion is at a serious disadvantage when it comes to moving in a hurry. These are the people that could cause a distinct liability issue for SCTA-BNI. I'd hate to see that.
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Just thought I would quote this for future reference:
Re: SpeedWeek 2013 - the event
superleggera
« Reply #745 on: Today at 06:13:36 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote
Quote from: RayTheRat on August 25, 2013, 05:28:51 PM
On the last day of the meet I heard that someone blew the valve cover clean off the motor in his car at the line. If there had been some untrained and otherwise un-credentialed photographer (or worse, his/her kid) too close...well, I don't even wanna think of what could happen.
Ardun head equipped roadster on return run upon startup. I was behind the line waiting with another competitor to pull forward to go down #1. If this was on course #2 earlier in the week with the usual crowd, someone would have gotten dinged mightily. Fortunately nobody was there this time.
One credentialed photographer almost got drove over on #2 earlier in the week. He was directly behind the competition car that took off -- and down in front of the crew truck taking pictures not realizing the crew would follow immediately. Fortunately another photographer stopped the crew truck from driving over him but they did knock him over...
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Ray;
"Bulls-eye. It's not a fence, but yellow tape...same thing that's supposed to keep people from wandering into the staging lanes. And yes, people walk around it, over it, under it or break it. "
Maybe we need an electric fence. Something needs to be done to keep people out of areas where they could be hurt or even killed if the worst happens.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Over the years there has always been problems with the media and their attitude. They seem to think the rules are for others not them. I had to have some escorted off the track a couple of times and none had a CB or anyway of knowing who or what was coming, one had drove out to within 25 feet of the course and set up his operation. Took a few minutes to get him out and off the track. Also he had a language problem. The media has to show respect to the racing assoc's just like anyone racing. It's for everyones safety.
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Over the years there has always been problems with the media and their attitude. They seem to think the rules are for others not them. I had to have some escorted off the track a couple of times and none had a CB or anyway of knowing who or what was coming, one had drove out to within 25 feet of the course and set up his operation. Took a few minutes to get him out and off the track. Also he had a language problem. The media has to show respect to the racing assoc's just like anyone racing. It's for everyones safety.
Yes, Glen, there are some big egos walking around with vests and (usually) video cameras. I don't know what seems to create that mindset....maybe it's the "creative artist" mind or something like that.
On the other hand, there are some media folks who are LSR enthusiasts first and photographers/videographers second. Not to mention experienced in motorsports photography. Bonneville Bill, Pork Pie, Dan Kaplan, Tony Huntimer, Ralph Komives...and so on. We (I'm gonna include myself in this group) have a clue about 1) etiquette and 2) safety. I had to laugh when I read about the guy who got knocked over by the push truck. "Anything for a good shot." I've had my own share of close calls, but I've never forgotten the rule I was taught early on: never turn your back on a race car or support vehicle. At least you can see what's gonna hit ya. :)
Here's one of the "close calls: http://www.chevyasylum.com/racing/racing2010/20100606/vwtdicrash/Crash%2015_jpg.html (http://www.chevyasylum.com/racing/racing2010/20100606/vwtdicrash/Crash%2015_jpg.html)
(http://www.chevyasylum.com/racing/racing2010/20100606/vwtdicrash/Crash%2015.jpg)
The whole "close call" is here: http://www.chevyasylum.com/racing/racing2010/20100606/vwtdicrash/Welcome.html (http://www.chevyasylum.com/racing/racing2010/20100606/vwtdicrash/Welcome.html)
And there are several shots of a "gravel shower" here: http://www.chevyasylum.com/racing/racing2010/20100912/pix/20100912%201262_jpg.html (http://www.chevyasylum.com/racing/racing2010/20100912/pix/20100912%201262_jpg.html)
But at all times, I was where I was supposed to be (behind the armco) and never turned my back on the cars/track.
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a couple of ideas for discussion?
1) clearly define on the ground the "starting box" with better visible markings. What is there is difficult at best to see and enforce and causes confusion to non-regulars and spectators with cameras from wandering within.
2) create additional signs and POST THEM stating rules who is allowed within the colored starting box -- crew for current vehicle, SCTA officials and properly vested photographers ONLY
3) make the starting box a bit longer (depth) for more room between competitors (space is a good safety item).
4) ask competitors/crews behind to stop double stacking the starting box -- ie: wait until prior vehicle/crew has cleared before entering
5) ask the starting officials to police their area better (for safety reasons)
Later if still problems -- designate a 2-tier photo credential: A) to shoot within starting box with engine off; B) to shoot within starting box with engine running. Probably a 2-tier credential system is applicable for who shoots down course as well in regard to safety?
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Also one question for the professional photographers/video folks: How much demand is there in the marketplace for close ups (<5ft distance) of a running vehicle in the starting box prior to going down course? If one is using such a wide angle lens to record, then the car will be out of focal range quickly going down course...
I've seen a lot of video and pictures and rarely see the above in the marketplace, YouTube or as online postings and wondered given all the people apparently taking them!
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How much demand is there in the marketplace for close ups (<5ft distance) of a running vehicle in the starting box prior to going down course?
The technique is pretty old and well established. They mostly are used as setup shots to establish a context or starting point for other shots. Probably the all time classic use of that sort of shot was in the opening scenes of the 1966 movie Grand Prix with James Garner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RILdsjeL_4
In that context, it is a legitimate photo technique. Unfortunately of late it has become grossly misused, especially in the import community. There has been a trend to make car photos look "professional" they shoot pictures at really bizarre angles to make them look "sophisticated" in most cases it is a cover up for shoddy photography, if you post enough off the wall shots with weird oblique views folks ignore that you did not spend much time thinking about composition.
There are priceless moments of driver interaction with their crew that occur just as they get ready to go (thumbs up, intense expression as the drive gets final instructions from the starter or crew, closing the visor etc), that "can be shot" with a wide angle lens shoved up their nose, but the same shot can be shot just as well with a 200 mm lens from 80' away and the crew and driver never even know you are there. The problem is the one guy with the wide angle screws up everyone else who sees and wants to get that same shot. If they back up 50' and use a longer lens 30 people can get almost the exact same shot without intruding on the driver and crew in the slightest.
I think way to many people use silly closeups and oblique shots as a crutch because they cannot or will not take the time to anticipate a shot 3 or 5 minutes before it occurs and be in the right place to get it. I love to do candid shots of the driver and such but I want to be totally invisible to the driver and crew so the scene is totally natural not posed, just a moment in time captured on the fly.
Like you I see very few actual shots of that type getting used in photography that people buy. It appears a lot as padding in online photo galleries turning 10 good shots into 50 mediocre shots.
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Here are a coupla images that could fall into that category. Note that they weren't shot from directly in front of the car at the line. Nonetheless, the technique is as Hotrod described it.
In that context, it is a legitimate photo technique. Unfortunately of late it has become grossly misused, especially in the import community. There has been a trend to make car photos look "professional" they shoot pictures at really bizarre angles to make them look "sophisticated" in most cases it is a cover up for shoddy photography, if you post enough off the wall shots with weird oblique views folks ignore that you did not spend much time thinking about composition.
Absolutely right. The oblique (I use it, but very rarely) shots, when overused, are nothing but fluff. And yeah, it seems to be very prevalent in the "cell phone generation": kids that had a cell phone before they were weaned. The ricer crowd generally falls into that group.
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In the past, I have been the one to issue the press credentials at World of Speed so this discussion is music to my ears. First off, I have refused to give "press" clearances to guys who are just shooting. They have no need to go into the areas where credentialed photographers can go. That helped to eliminate a percentage of the shooters beyond the starting line.
Tom Burkland and Rex Svoboda suggested a year ago that there should be a no spectator area in front of the back of the push truck. I took the suggestion to the starters and the area appeared like magic within a few minutes and was repeated again this year. Another requirement of the person issuing credentials is the BLM requirement that a photographer pay a fee for photos shot on BLM land and published. How many in this discussion have cleared their right to shoot photos on the BLM property at Bonneville with the BLM? When credentialed photographers are allowed down the course they must stay in their "allowed" area. There have been too many occasions when there was someone shooting at the scene of an "incident" who had no business being in that area and you know who you are. You are not needed or wanted in that area so stay where you ARE allowed. I have had an ongoing "thing" with another photographer who has repeatedly pushed in front of where I was set up for a shot and loudly complained when I asked her to move. Professionals respect others who are shooting, even in a situation where credentials are not needed. That's my two cents! Now Lila does it instead of me.
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Boy did I miss all the fun!
I heard about this from Ray the Rat at Speed Week this year, you have to understand before Speed Week my life turns crazy making sure the calendars are done, vendors contacted, all the stuff for the trip is loaded and the vechicles are running (motorhome down, 40 pickup down). So not alot of time for site viewing
Where to start, lots of comments. So in no order.
Slim, I was there when Nancy went down, I was shooting H&H REMR, I spun just as she when down. What did I do next? Raise my camera and bang off some shots? No, I turned to the crowd and told them to lower all camera and cell phones for some respect, and it took three comments for the crowd to understand.
Now for some background, yes I shoot Speed Week and I do the calandar, I shoot on the line to get the cars and crews, I do stand between the push vehicle and race vehicle, after asking permission, I also tell the push vehicles where I will be standing pass the start line, I shoot wide angle and in my shots that look like they are four feet away, they are inches away. I know the risk, the starters know what I am doing as I tell them.
Also I am a racer, not at Speed Week, we tried twice and it is too much to shoot, sell and race. So I have gone down the course, it was amazing. We (myself and my wife Chick, the Inspector BI**) do a lot of racing at El Mirage and as such we belong to a racing club, The Rod Riders, also we are on the board of the club so we attend all the SCTA Board meetings
We interact with all the SCTA Board Members
I am vaning trouble with thi post so I wll post and add more in a minute
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SCTA will be getting tougher with Credentials. What they are concerned about is having exposure about the event. Positive exposure so more racers show up and spectators that pay for passes and buy merchendise to keep the SCTA alive.
But as professional photographers know, that market to sell work has just about dried up. Want to see B-ville shots? Go to the sites, photos are being posted within minutes (seconds). So next year, official requests from official media outlets for official press credentials.
Oh the rights? Should photographers pay BLM? Yes but no. I am a vendor at Speed Week to sell my calendars.I have to have a million dollar insurance coverage, also at the end of the meet I am required to give SCTA 10% and the state of Utah 3%. SCTA owns the salt flats durning Speed Week so they own the photo rights. So all photographers selling there work on the salt really owe SCTA a cut of the action and should have insurance.
More to come
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Fewer vests/passes will help, but a problem will exist until some sort of crowd control is in place at the starting lines.
I hope SCTA will look at the 2-tier credentialing concept and give it some thought.
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Another requirement of the person issuing credentials is the BLM requirement that a photographer pay a fee for photos shot on BLM land and published. How many in this discussion have cleared their right to shoot photos on the BLM property at Bonneville with the BLM?
I work for the Dept of Interior, of which BLM is a Bureau. I've always been under the impression that the Government does not copyright anything, so I wonder where this requirement originated. I've never heard of the National Park Service (another Dept of Interior Bureau) charging for photography in the parks. So, I would certainly question any BLM employee who is demanding payment from photographers, and ask to know under what authority they're doing such. In fact, if anyone can provide me with names of BLM employees doing so, I'll look into it.
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Also one question for the professional photographers/video folks: How much demand is there in the marketplace for close ups (<5ft distance) of a running vehicle in the starting box prior to going down course? If one is using such a wide angle lens to record, then the car will be out of focal range quickly going down course...
Yes there is a call for such shots, take a look at my calendar.
Two tier for photographers? Good Idea.
But with all access, and there was a comment about photographers getting out to the tower and getting all the killer shots. Ahh that does not happen as often as photographers would like to happen. Even for me it was "Tony, let me know when and I will see about getting a Line Steward to go with you, but not right " So photographes are excorted to the tower and just drive up and take pictures.
Access will mean responsibilities, CB radios (working) fire extinghers,,,
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To the above post about Govt asking for rights..
I have never been asked to pay for rights to shoot from the BLM, as I mentioned the rights at Speed Week belong to BNI. They have the right to control who and when shots are made.
As for the 'rights' of the people being shot, it is a 'public' event and images shot are the property of the photographer, it is when thoes images are now sold and published, or not even sold to but used by a publication 'rights' come into play. If the publication is reporting on the event, it comes under 'news', no rights necessay. But if images are used for promotion and advertising it becomes interesting.
I am not a 'rights' lawyer, but if only a vehicle is in the image you don't need a release, but if you have a image with people in which they can be identified, you need a signed release from all. How many of you had to sign releases for Dicovery Channel this year?
Do I owe something to the vehicles and people I shoot? Yes, I owe them the best calendar I can produce.
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Good discussion guys.
Being part of Tims crew I have had interesting experiences. Many of you know how popular (as in photographed) the Yblock truck is. The Aussies,Euros and Kiwis are nuts for it! Because of this we have had still and film crews around us every year. I will say our experience at Speedweek has been pretty darn good. All of the shooters have been polite and stayed out of the way when needed. Exactly 180 degrees from what I have seen in person and in this thread. I guess we have been lucky. When I am in the chase truck my eyes are on the starter, the same as Tim driving. I am not looking for a photog down low in front of me. I don't leave the line until I also get a nod from the starter. That is one habit that may help more chase folks now that I think of it.
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I think policing of the spectators should also be addressed.
They were out of control at the starting line on course #1.
FREUD
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I think policing of the spectators should also be addressed.
They were out of control at the starting line on course #1.
FREUD
Amen to that! If the spectators (non-credentialed humanoids with cameras, mainly) were kept out, most of the experienced photographers would be happy to work together. There will always be exceptions, but "crowd control" would be the biggest single step to help with this problem.
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I wonder if a "rule change" would be adopted to cover this issue. It might help to bring it into the face of the officials so they'd consider some of the ideas that have been offered here. Deadline for rule change submissions is only a few days away. Get writing, boys and girls. :cheers: :cheers:
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Slim, these 'rules' are not SCTA 'Rules" rather they are quidelines set forth by SCTA to set guidance and control to the media. I gave some suggestions to JoAnn a couple of years ago when it started to get to be a BIG problem and they adapted some of them.
What is needed, and I hate to say this, is an Association of Photographers. This association will be for Land Speed Photographers and will work with the Media person at SCTA.
Because what, In my opinion, we have at Speed Week is like 4 types of photographers in no special order off the top of my head, Journalist that are there on asignment, freelancers that hope to sell something, art photographers that hope to add to thier portfolio, and web content photographers.
All are legitimate, all can help SCTA, but not all have the experance and know the ropes.
The Association will offer guidelines and direction for new photographers.
For the 'vintage' photographers, maybe a second tier of credentals could be astablished to allow access along with responsibility.
Land Speed Photographers Association
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Tony: I put "rule change" in quotes because I knew it wasn't an SCTA rule regarding race vehicles per se. But - SCTA could certainly adopt a rule (of some kind) to establish the various requirements for photographers on the salt and at EM, and with a rule - enforcement could be more easily accomplished. The heck of it is that it'd take a handful of "line nazi enforcers" to keep the crowds under control, and more workers means more recruiting and more volunteers and so on. Would you want to give up your chance to take pictures, or to race, or to sell in your vendor location, or whatever else you like to do at the races - just to try to herd the
cats photo shooters that wander all over the place? Maybe one or two four or five hour shifts for each - that'd be doable by me, just like Nancy and I take our turn as the pit closers one night out of eight.
So - rule change or ruling enactment. Tomayto or tomahto. Take your pick.
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Yes I have the delicate balance of doing exactally what you said,,, I take care of my vendors, I man the booth, I shoot (with assistance from Chick) and it is not easy (we once tried to race also, bad idea).
I am sure you might have noticed a reduction on line stewards this year especially on 1, SCTA call. And that is another story. But with a two tier system a better control is possible. OK I am not a fan of the green vests, but they work for the starters and the missing stewards. So what if there was a second vest, lets say red/orange and that vest you gets beyond the fist four feet past the start line to the 45 degree 'danger zone'. Thoes photographers would have shown experiance and signed the doubler throw down release of 'You might die", that means nothing really.
The Orange vest would also allow access to Patrols positions, with-in reason, access to the tower to the roped off area, only two or three at a time, and real access beyond the three and five mile depending on course.
All of this would require some sort of professionalism, which is hard to prove and harder to inforce. Especially since most photographers consider themselves 'Artists", yea even me.
Which brings us the start of this post.
Go ahead and shoot, just don't be a Richard. Respect each other and be awaire.
And I don't think the 'problem' photographers read this post
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In my opinion, we have at Speed Week is like 4 types of photographers in no special order off the top of my head, Journalist that are there on assignment, freelancers that hope to sell something, art photographers that hope to add to their portfolio, and web content photographers.
Tony, I think there are 2 types of photographers missing from your list....and I think they're the most troublesome. First are the "vests" that are issued (as I understand it) to each team for their own "personal shooter." Second are the tourists, fans, kids, dogs...ad nauseum...that don't have vests. If those two groups were somehow magically removed from the people around the lines (go to course 3 or 4 and you'll see what I mean) there would be virtually no problem.
The "usual suspects" (the experienced photographers) seem to work with each other very well.
I'm all for the 2-tier system, but I think crowd control has to be addressed as well, which is why Dan and I discussed the second tier of credentialing giving some degree of authority to act, if nothing else, as someone who can suggest (or tell in a very strong way) that a person move his/her carcass back to where it belongs and if the "tellee" isn't cooperative, contact an SCTA official to do like they did with the truck that was parked in no-man's land:
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Ray I forgot about the team vests, and to me they shouldn't have them. They are not professionals, OK so maybe there is a team that has a crew following them around for some story and the team is professional, but they have never shot at Speed Week. Is it time for Speed Week Photographer Boot Camp, do we need a Rookie Class for Photographers,, sounds silly to you and me, but if it would slow down some problems, then it is necessary.
And for course 3 and 4, most of the people there drive right by the 'No spectators beyond this point' sign. How do you stop them? Jeff, Buddy, and Jill are overwelmed trying to starters and course stewards.
Another problem I noticed was the I already have a green vest photographer,, and the I made a Media pass with my computer and printer (I talked to a photographer that was proud of that one).
So here is my suggestion for the day: Speed Week Photographer Rookie Class, Saturday morning before Drivers meeting, you get your rookie sticker you get your vest.
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Sounds good to me. Do you wanna put the yellow stripe on the rookie's butts? Maybe we could assign that task to Pork Pie. LOL!
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Do you wanna put the yellow stripe on the rookie's butts?
Could we put them in the wall if they don't pay attention? :evil:
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Speed Week has expanded to the point that it can't be operated like it was in the '60's.
The event is so much larger, the crowd is now composed of more "first timers" and so
there need to be rules that have never before been needed.
Think of a college or pro football sideline and see if "every family with a player on the team' gets a vest.
The team vest is craziness. It's now at the point that teams need to get their fotos from an authorized photographer.
Jeff Gordon's family can't be doing fotos of him on the grid.
Just because it wasn't a problem in the past doesn't mean it isn't a problem now.
Times change and so should the access rules.
Purchasing a good digital camera doesn't make one a professional photographer.
Old and slow but with a mind as sharp as a hand held image using a shutter speed of 1/2 a second,
FREUD
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I have now attended two Speed Week events, in 2011 and 2013 as an arm-banded crew member of a race team, driving, wrenching, brolly holding, photo taking, "gofer-"ing or whatever was required. I noted the thread prior to the event and commented as an amateur photographer that I thought the friendly reminder was OK and that I personally generally think and look before I walk into an area likely being eyed up for shots, always have done and probably always will do. Again, this year, I paid attention to where I stood, didn't linger long and for the record, don't appear in any of Ray's "trouble shots" once despite 6 trips to various start lines during the week. I do recognise some of the folks pictured and commented as being in shots.
No offense intended, but I will admit to now having a bit more of a problem with the thread's general direction in that it doesn't really address solutions to problems and could be considered as preaching to the choir. That never really fixes anything.
Playing Devil's advocate... As either a spectator or crew member or racer, how the heck would I know what the rules at the start line are? Common sense? Signage? Education? Engineered barriers? Enforcement?
Breaking that down:
- Well, as we know, common sense isn't all that common.I know what I know but I don't know what I don't know.
- Signage. I have to admit that the arm band crew members sign is easily overlooked. The bright orange line that appeared or I observed later in the week on one of the courses certainly made one look for some sign as to why the line might be there and I did see that the line for 90% of the population worked the time I was there.
- Education. I am not familiar with the contents of the racer's package. I haven't been as a pure spectator so don't know whether there is a leaflet indicating what is permitted and what is "streng verboten!" (or strictly forbidden). I would hope there is a leaflet for spectators and an urgent reminder that it be read to ensure the safety of all. Having attended 2 drivers meetings, no mention of start line etiquette was made (other than remove your vehicles from up-course so that racing can begin...not apparently adhered to by one individual).
- Engineered barriers. There are the yellow tapes. There is a defined start line. There are cones. There was at least one orange line indicating that one was about to cross the line into a restricted area. But what do the yellow tapes mean to whom? Where is this laid out to educate the ignorant (myself alas included)?
- Enforcement. I did not see any enforcement at all in the 6 starting line visits.
Best practice solutions for this kind of problem rely on the 3 E's, Engineering solutions, Educating folks and then some Enforcement. I may be alas ignorant of all the measures already in place because I haven't seen leaflets or other measures but nowhere in this thread does it outline the present RULES.
Also playing Devil's advocate: If I'm a member of a race team, who tells me where I can and cannot stand, camera in hand or not? Am I not allowed to stand where I I damned well like (other than across the start line or in the other box) and take pictures of my own race team's entry to record the blood, sweat and tears of the exhaustion, adrenaline and not to mention great expense that got them to that point? Is that not acceptable, even if I happen to be in the way of a professional photographer? Am I not allowed to wander the staging lines whilst waiting and take pictures of cars and bikes for my own personal use of considered posting on this or other forums. Really, is that too much to ask?
Admittedly, this doesn't address the initial issues of etiquette between professional photographers on the 45o line up course brought up at the beginning of the thread that seem to be the cause of most distress but it does address why there may be the odd uncredited photographer in the line of sight. I'd think this is to be expected with such an open and accessible event, even if it is the bane of the professional photographer.
Please do educate me if there are indeed written rules handed out to spectators and crew. I'll ask internally too and would be happy to study a copy.
As a non-professional photographer (can I really have a vest, purlease, no not really, they make for bad photos if someone wearing one gets in the way), the dual accredited suggestion makes sense for up course permission with suitable experience and appropriate safety equipment proven and proper education for press folks would go a long way. Perhaps some better signage and more visible barriers for the start "boxes" and more education in the way of required reading leaflets for spectators and crew would help too. Enforcement should be a last resort, I have found elsewhere that polite peer enforcement works best, especially if there are written rules and guidelines and they can be pointed out to the "outlier" individual.
Jim
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It's now at the point that teams need to get their fotos from an authorized photographer.
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Jeff Gordon's family can't be doing fotos of him on the grid.
...
FREUD
Sorry, but last time I looked, this was an accessible sport for amateurs (and semi-professionals) alike. Speed Week isn't NASCAR, it's amateurs putting their heart and soul into "a few good runs." Who is to forbid the crew taking (safety in mind of course) shots of the event? I can't think most teams accepting the banning of crew members form the area for the sake of professional photographers lines of sight. Most race teams don't have the remaining funds (all spent on racing) to have to buy photos from professionals. They are happy to buy great shots if they have them and can afford them, but as a choice not as a requirement.
Not intended to be inflammatory. I understand where you are coming from but having people in the way is only to be expected and any photographer knows that not every shot is going to be a money shot, poor sight lines are par for the course and to be expected sometimes, however not if ruined by other so-called professionals. I just think that the accessibility of this sport is what makes it so popular.
Best regards,
Jim
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Quote: it's amateurs putting their heart and soul into "a few good runs."
How does that qualify them as anything but being a racer?
If you want shots of the driver strapped in, do it when he does his bail out test.
See how far you get with that from the inspectors.
The racers do not run this event. They are too consumed with their own situation
to set the rules by which the event is conducted.
First timers have no concept of the big picture. (sic)
Just be prepared. There will be changes and when the insurance company
speaks everyone will listen.
FREUD
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I paid $450 to be on that starting line, perhaps the photographers should too.
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The racers do not run this event. They are too consumed with their own situation to set the rules by which the event is conducted.
First timers have no concept of the big picture. (sic)
Just be prepared. There will be changes and when the insurance company speaks everyone will listen.
FREUD
I have absolutely no issues with enhanced and reasonable (not for me to determine) safety requirements keeping racers, crew, volunteers and spectators safe. I see more issues with banning people because it ruins lines of sight. I understand that this is a problem. I take photos too and want fewer people in them but mixing safety and desire to be able to shoot clean photographs is more of a conflict. Personally, I hope there is sufficient balance of safe freedoms for participants and respect shown to professionals and volunteers trying to make a living or run the event safely. Like most things in life, it's all about compromise and balance (safety excepted, that does need control and rules).
Jim
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Caution: This post may provoke many differing opinions!
I have now attended two Speed Week events, in 2011 and 2013 as an arm-banded crew member of a race team, driving, wrenching, brolly holding, photo taking, "gofer-"ing or whatever was required. I noted the thread prior to the event and commented as an amateur photographer that I thought the friendly reminder was OK and that I personally generally think and look before I walk into an area likely being eyed up for shots, always have done and probably always will do. Again, this year, I paid attention to where I stood, didn't linger long and for the record, don't appear in any of Ray's "trouble shots" once despite 6 trips to various start lines during the week. I do recognise some of the folks pictured and commented as being in shots.
If you're not in the "Bad Manners" shots, probability is that you're one of the good guys.
No offense intended, but I will admit to now having a bit more of a problem with the thread's general direction in that it doesn't really address solutions problems and could be considered as preaching to the choir. That never really fixes anything.
Playing Devil's advocate... As either a spectator or crew member or racer, how the heck would I know what the rules at the start line are? Common sense? Signage? Education? Engineered barriers? Enforcement?
Breaking that down:
Well, as we know, common sense isn't all that common.I know what I know but I don't know what I don't know.
Sorry, but I had to remove your list to respond by item.
Signage. I have to admit that the arm band crew members sign is easily overlooked. The bright orange line that appeared or I observed later in the week on one of the courses certainly made one look for some sign as to why the line might be there and I did see that the line for 90% of the population worked the time I was there.
I didn't have any problem seeing the signs. But then I try to pay attention to things that could get me in trouble. Yeah, I know...not everybody does this. They figger, "I paid (in one way or another) to get here, I can go anywhere I want." Either that or the "blonde factor" is way off the scale.
Education. I am not familiar with the contents of the racer's package. I haven't been as a pure spectator so don't know whether there is a leaflet indicating what is permitted and what is "streng verboten!" (or strictly forbidden). I would hope there is a leaflet for spectators and an urgent reminder that it be read to ensure the safety of all. Having attended 2 drivers meetings, no mention of start line etiquette was made (other than remove your vehicles from up-course so that racing can begin...not apparently adhered to by one individual).
This will probably p*ss people off, but it seems that the drivers meeting has become more of an opening ceremony than something to educate people or remind 'em of the "rules of the salt." In other forms of racing, there are 2 separate and distinct events: the drivers meeting (drivers only, conducted by experienced personnel) and the opening ceremony including awards, opening prayer, national anthem, etc. With Speed Week, especially as large as it is, it's almost impossible to to this...particularly when many people don't arrive until the 2nd or 3rd day.
Engineered barriers. There are the yellow tapes. There is a defined start line. There are cones. There was at least one orange line indicating that one was about to cross the line into a restricted area. But what do the yellow tapes mean to whom? Where is this laid out to educate the ignorant (myself alas included)?
I think this is a case of "we've never had problems in the past, why is it a problem now?". Freud covered that pretty well, along with what seems to be the fact that SCTA chose not to provide any crowd control people.
Enforcement. I did not see any enforcement at all in the 6 starting line visits.
See above.
Best practice solutions for this kind of problem rely on the 3 E's, Engineering solutions, Educating folks and then some Enforcement. I may be alas ignorant of all the measures already in place because I haven't seen leaflets or other measures but nowhere in this thread does it outline the present RULES.
Also playing Devil's advocate: If I'm a member of a race team, who tells me where I can and cannot stand, camera in hand or not? Am I not allowed to stand where I I damned well like (other than across the start line or in the other box) and take pictures of my own race team's entry to record the blood, sweat and tears of the exhaustion, adrenaline and not to mention great expense that got them to that point? Is that not acceptable, even if I happen to be in the way of a professional photographer? Am I not allowed to wander the staging lines whilst waiting and take pictures of cars and bikes for my own personal use of considered posting on this or other forums. Really, is that too much to ask?
Try that at an NHRA or NASCAR event. I know that NASCAR bans photographers for life for going where they're not supposed to go or even putting a hand (or camera) thru the chain link fence that separates the grandstands from the track. But shooting in the staging lanes is fine, as long as that uncommon commodity "common sense" is used. But there's a rub here. To get into the staging lanes, you have to cross the yellow tape area. This is sort of a non sequitur: If it's ok to cross the yellow tape to get into the staging lanes, then it must be ok to cross 'em at the starting line. Maybe red tape (as if there wasn't enough of that already) for the starting line would underscore the point that it's ok to get into the lanes, but NOT ok to cross the starting line without proper credentials and "training." However, I have no problem with ANYONE shooting in the staging lanes, as long as that uncommon commodity "common sense" is used. Words to live by: never turn your back on a moving vehicle...or one that could move in the near future.
Admittedly, this doesn't address the initial issues of etiquette between professional photographers on the 45o line up course brought up at the beginning of the thread that seem to be the cause of most distress but it does address why there may be the odd uncredited photographer in the line of sight. I'd think this is to be expected with such an open and accessible event, even if it is the bane of the professional photographer.
Please do educate me if there are indeed written rules handed out to spectators and crew. I'll ask internally too and would be happy to study a copy.
I'm ashamed to have to plead ignorance here. I know that when I get my credentials, things like course layout, visits to the timing tower and other stuff is explained, but I've never heard the 45 degree line nor the yellow tape nor other issues of that sort explained. 'Course I have a memory sorta like a steel trap: nothin ever gets out. Seriously, I have medically-caused memory issues, so it may have been explained and I just don't remember it. However, I KNOW what the lines mean. This wasn't my first rodeo.
As a non-professional photographer (can I really have a vest, purlease, no not really, they make for bad photos if someone wearing one gets in the way), the dual accredited suggestion makes sense for up course permission with suitable experience and appropriate safety equipment proven and proper education for press folks would go a long way. Perhaps some better signage and more visible barriers for the start "boxes" and more education in the way of required reading leaflets for spectators and crew would help too. Enforcement should be a last resort, I have found elsewhere that polite peer enforcement works best, especially if there are written rules and guidelines and they can be pointed out to the "outlier" individual.
You've hit the nail on the head. Required reading is usually interpreted as "that's for the other people. I don't need to do that." This is why Tony's suggestion of a mandatory media members' meeting is a good one. But then there's the problem of media people late arrival, blowing it off ("I know all that stuff already") and so on. When I've shot sports car racing, media vests were handed out at the close of the mandatory media members meeting. You couldn't get a vest without attending the meeting. Yeah, it was tedious, but it made sure that photogs had the information presented to them and if they screwed up, the sanctioning body and the track officials had proof that they'd presented the information and if the shooter violated the rules, it wasn't because the information hadn't been presented to them.
So. I think SCTA needs to address the issue by having people assigned to monitor the starting lines and other photo op areas so that the rules are followed and if violated, the miscreant should be escorted to Land's End with instructions to Lynda and her crew not to allow them to re-enter the salt without written permission...sorta like the yellow Lee Kennedy tags that get put on cars and require a form of action to return to good graces...like a mandatory "study hall" to revisit the rules for media members. Another thought: Signage, as you've addressed would be a good idea. On course one, there was a triangular area enclosed in yellow tape. It was for non-credentialed photographers so they could get a better shot of the car leaving the line. But it wasn't marked as such. Ya had to figger it out on yer own. That could be easily rectified.
Bottom line: I think SCTA's decision not to provide crowd control personnel at the starting lines is at the root of this problem. I dunno what happened to Butch (the deaf dude who pedaled his trike around the staging lanes and starting line, but he served a very important task. I dunno if he was the Butch listed in the program as deceased (I hope not, he was a real good dude) but if he was, I wish him God Speed and all the best in whatever comes after this earthly vale of tears. Someone to fill that position is sorely needed.
I'm gonna go put on my Nomex undies just in case of flames. :roll:
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I paid $450 to be on that starting line, perhaps the photographers should too.
There's another meet that attempts to do this. I don't attend it. Besides...do you want semi-live photos posted here on LR? If your suggestion were to be implemented, I could do photos of the pits, impound and other areas, but I wouldn't pay a racer's entry fee to provide starting line photos to LR followers for free.
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I paid $450 to be on that starting line, perhaps the photographers should too.
That's probably the best solution I've seen so far. I was waiting to start. The car in the other lane was on the course and I had a photographer crawling (literally) all over me and the sidecar taking (I presume) close up shots of this that and the other. At that point in time I would have gladly banned anyone with a camera. Its a two way street.
I paid my $450 entry fee, several hundred dollars for gas, $900 for the hotel room and a few hundred dollars for food etc. My crewman did much the same except for the entry fee. My crewman and wife are needed on the line to help me get ready to run. I'll be damned if they are going to be dictated to by photographers.
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We need to be careful in this discussion not to conflate issues and push the thread off topic.
The original thread topic was plainly as stated a discussion of good practices among responsible photographers, be they professional or a team photographer. I do not in the least begrudge a team designating a team member to document their efforts --- BUT the team also has a moral obligation to pick someone for that task who has a grasp of what good photographic practice is as well as good safety practices for racing photographers.
As mentioned above we have drifted into a different issue here. There are a lot of random spectator photographers who "just want to get this shot" or simply are oblivious to rules and markers that indicate where they should be. Those are the largest worry for safety and degrading the whole starting line operation.
As mentioned above better signing and marking would help, but at some point you need someone to have the authority to "herd the cats" and keep things under control. When the popular cars like the streamliners head to the line it is like trying to keep ants away from a hotdog, and the SCTA starting line staff is simply not staffed to cope with that issue as well as running a safe starting line and race course. Too many challanges too few hands feet and eyes.
Due to the recent increase in popularity we have crossed a boundary into an area of over load where old measures are simply not adequate any more.
My suggestion would be to make the starting box a wider trapazoid getting wider toward the starting line. That would provide more "spectator elbow room" with an unobstructed view of the starting process, and also more work room for the teams as they get close to the line.
Put a heavy 1 foot wide blue line across the starting staging area, about 50' behind the start line and write with the blue dye "Restricted area, teams and authorized staff only -- NO SPECTATORS allowed"
Likewise some pennant banners flying up near the starting line, that say "starting box restricted area"
There will always be some spectators and random folks that think they are "special" and do not need to follow posted rules but it really helps if the people authorized to be in the starting box, could easily point at an obvious marker and say "you have to get back behind that or they won't run the car!"
The big problem is just the first 2 days it gets more controllable after the weekend but I have watched the leakage process as crowd pressure builds as a popular car stages. Sooner or later one or two people obviously just average spectators breach the barriers and go out where the don't belong. The crowd will watch what happens and if no corrective action is taken a few more leak out then it becomes an incoming tide as they figure it must be tolerated since everyone else is doing it.
The cure is good signs, (good human design of the spectator barrier -- make it difficult to step over or duck under) and a quick response to the first 3-5 folks who push the envelope.
It perhaps is not the job of the starting crew or the photographers, maybe we need to see if Lynda can round up a few extra security bodies to prowl around the starting box when the big guns run. Someone in a bright Red vest that says "security" or "safety" on it might be much better at shooing the interlopers away from the danger zone at the front edge of the starting box.
It is likely that with that marking they would not get any back talk from most people.
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I paid $450 to be on that starting line, perhaps the photographers should too.
That's probably the best solution I've seen so far. I was waiting to start. The car in the other lane was on the course and I had a photographer crawling (literally) all over me and the sidecar taking (I presume) close up shots of this that and the other. At that point in time I would have gladly banned anyone with a camera. Its a two way street.
I paid my $450 entry fee, several hundred dollars for gas, $900 for the hotel room and a few hundred dollars for food etc. My crewman did much the same except for the entry fee. My crewman and wife are needed on the line to help me get ready to run. I'll be damned if they are going to be dictated to by photographers.
I don't believe that any photographers want to dictate to the racers. We're there to do numerous things, as Rick pointed out. What we'd like to do is make our working conditions better so that we can provide better photos of the action; not to act as directors of same, nor make things tough on those same racers. If there was a photog "crawling all over you", you certainly had the right to say, "get the f*ck away from me!" If it was me, I'd feel ashamed, but at the same time realize that I was really imposing on one of the racers.
I believe that racers and those who record the happenings of the event need each other. Yeah, you could race without photogs, but there would be no visual record of what happened and in the case of LR, people around the world wouldn't see what you were doing.
Again, the last thing I wanna do (well, short of gettin run over) is to make the racers' lives miserable.
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Ref the post above, any photographer who does that and becomes a pain to the race team needs to have his vest pulled for 24 hours and a sit down. There is no excuse for getting all over a team while they are tying to get ready to run.
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A Strawman for folks to throw mud at and constructively criticise:
- Waaay up course (meaning return roads, tower area etc.): Only accredited photographers with official credentials, briefing and safety equipment (that have passed the photographers equivalent of tech inspection). You only get a vest if you have passed the initiation rites and have approval form the grand poobah, whomever that may be
- Just beyond the start line: Only accredited photographers when the course is open and within an appropriate area, presumably the 45 degree area spoken of. With the starter's permission but only when the course is closed, crew members only and only within say 10 yards of the start line that can be recalled quickly and simply by the starter when the course reopens. No wandering up course (start throwing mud...)
- Start boxes: Clearly marked with lines and appropriate signage. Arm banded crew members only of the vehicle in the respective start box. I'm not even sure accredited photographers should be allowed in, for their own and the crew's safety and due to the likely distractions to the racer (Sorry I couldn't resist, but because everyone likes a good photo of themselves after the event even if it is annoying at the time, the photos are appreciated so I guess it's OKaaay to allow accredited photographers in the start box :-D)
- Staging: Open to arm band crew members of all teams. Is here really a problem with spectators being there too? From a safety perspective, I see potential issues, especially when vehicles are being moved and engines warmed up. From a bugging teams when they are trying to do stuff, that should be controllable. From what I have seen in only 2 times to Speed Week, issues in the staging area / line up don't seem to appear to be a problem and most teams are pretty accommodating to the curious.
- No yellow vests for teams unless they apply for press credentials because they have a professional on the team. Same photographer safety briefing required. I didn't know a team could apply for them, there did seem to be quite a few more vests than 2011. I don't really even remember there being vested press in 2011.
- All spectators should received (if not already the case) a pamphlet with the spectating rules and guidelines, where they are allowed and where absolutely the heck not.
- The starter may benefit from a starter's assistant (but that requires even more volunteers) to herd lost sheep (or folks blatantly ignoring the rules and putting themselves or any one else at a safety risk)
For the collective consideration and in the vein of helping work up the education portion. I don't get to make the rules and don't wish to. As for people being in the way that are allowed to be where they are at, patience I hear is a virtue.
Jim
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Caution: This post may provoke many differing opinions!
I'm gonna go put on my Nomex undies just in case of flames. :roll:
No NOMEX required. I did want to try to ensure that the safety aspect wasn't being used or interpreted as an excuse to get people out of lines of sight. The latter benefits from the former and the former is required for everyone's safety and that the show may go on. I fully respect professionals trying to go about their business, I understand fully the sight line stuff but that photographers also have to be impartial observers and not end up participants (see the in your face comments above). I don't race (yet) but I do know from crewing that distractions on the line from anyone (crew included) are not always appreciated and can really start to be a safety concern.
Discussion is all good.
Jim
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We have a mandatory drivers' meeting-- how about one for photographers?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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From reply #49:
"So here is my suggestion for the day: Speed Week Photographer Rookie Class, Saturday morning before Drivers meeting, you get your rookie sticker you get your vest."
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That was my thought have JoAnn hand out the press credentials (badges) but hold the vests hostage until they present their press pass at the photographers briefing. Then they get issued the vest.
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That was my thought have JoAnn hand out the press credentials (badges) but hold the vests hostage until they present their press pass at the photographers briefing. Then they get issued the vest.
I could live with that.
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BRILLIANT !! JoAnn needs another time consuming job.
FREUD
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No I am trying to relieve some of her work load. She already hands out the press passes and credentials, just move the location of the press vest distribution to the photographers safety meeting, at the end of the meeting present your credentials to the instructor and get a vest, not from JoAnn but from who ever conducts the meeting. Then they return a list to her of the vest numbers associated with the press credentials.
That way you know everyone wearing a vest has been to the safety briefing.
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It isn't a 100% fix, but signs indicating "Officials, press and crew only beyond this point" would possibly stop half of the knuckleheads, and give everybody involved a sign to point to.
No runs until ALL non authorized people are behind the line would bring peer pressure on the other half to getthehelloutoftheway.
I once had a guy cut in front of me in line at the DMV. He said, "I was here". I said, in a clear voice to everybody behind me, "Pal, personally, I really don't care, provided these folks who are waiting behind me don't care."
One guy indicated his displeasure . . . then another . . . then another . . . and that's all it took.
Stop the racing until unauthorized dolts are clear, and I think you'll see enough peer pressure to all but eliminate the problem.
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I like that Chris, problem will solve itself.
DW
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I think one of the professional photographers should organize the photographers safety meeting, handle the approval of credentials, hand out the passes and vests and be responsible for the photographers behavior and ensure the return of the vests. On a voluntary, non remunerative basis of course.
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One word, sharpshooters. :-D
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Who ever runs the class will also have to collect the credit cards for vest deposit, touchy.
DW
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It isn't a 100% fix, but signs indicating "Officials, press and crew only beyond this point" would possibly stop half of the knuckleheads, and give everybody involved a sign to point to.
How about the signs and the old orange snow fence instead of caution tape. Also on the wrist bands for the teams write the car number on it with a sharpie, people not involved with that car should not be at the starting line.
Tom G.
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Just let Hulk Hogan police the area.
FREUD
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Just let Hulk Hogan police the area.
FREUD
I think Alec Baldwin would do a much better job at controlling the photographers on the line.
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Just let Hulk Hogan police the area.
FREUD
I think Alec Baldwin would do a much better job at controlling the photographers on the line.
Or maybe the Mayor of Toronto -
http://tv.yahoo.com/news/toronto-mayor-defeats-hulk-hogan-arm-wrestling-152846911.html
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Again, I have been gone for awhile, race car and calendar work. I have been reading a bunch of words that in the line of 'I am glad I got that off my chest". A bunch of good suggestions have been made, but where do we go from here?
I beleive most of the 'problem' photographers have never heard of this site, imagine that. Just like racers, many photographers have a 'bucket list' of places to shoot and Speed Week is one of them.
So who is going to step to the plate?
How will we help Joann?
Think of it this way, racers have rules and they have to follow them or they don't race. Too much of the rules for Land Sped Photographers are 'Tribal Knowledge", we have been here, we understand. All we want is the perfect shot.
It is time, right now, to commit to helping the 'problem'. It is easy to point out a problem, lets see how many really want to fix it.
PM me with your contact info and I will see what can be done, with some help from other like minded photographer.
We do this or SCTA will give us rules we wont like.
Tony Huntiner