Landracing Forum
Misc Forums => LSR General Chat => Topic started by: gkabbt on July 17, 2013, 01:57:12 PM
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I cannot explain it but the death of Bill Warner has hit me really hard, like when John Beckett died but this seems much worse.
The suddenness pulls the rug out from under you and really makes you think.
Since I have been involved (spectating) in LSR (2003 /2004), there have been several incidents resulting in deaths at Bonneville, Maxton,
Texas, Wilmington and now Loring. Unfortunately, I was witness to several of these at both at Bonneville and Maxton.
I fully understand that racers (or in my case, wannabe racer) in all forms of Motorsports, walk a razors edge when it comes to life and death.
With death, left behind are loved ones (wife, children, mother, father, brother, sister, friends) that try to cope and pick up the pieces.
As for racers, we spend a lot of time in the garage, spend $$$$$ and time on the road for this racing fun.
Are we being selfish? Is it being self-centered? Is it ego?
But the question that has been eating at me is: Racing.....Is it really worth it?
Thanks,
Gregg Adams
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As a good friend of Bills, I am certain he would say yes. Bill died doing what he loved. He would not want anyone to quit racing because of his crash. I have done some serious contemplation about my racing this week. What I decided is that I love it. That being said I will be much more diligent in my preparation and really aware of how my bike is handling. Three years ago when I crashed I ignored a handling problem and paid the price. Life is a gamble and racing is the ultimate gamble. :cheers:
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All right, you asked.
To answer your question. No. It is not worth it for many people especially when measured by conventional standards.
That being said-
1st. It's just what we do. We are racers.
I believe that the talents and passions that we have are God given so we do these thing. The thrill that we get when our machines do what they are designed and built to do by us gives us huge satisfaction. I believe it makes God even happier when we do what we have been designed to do to the best of the abilities and talents that He gave us.
The glory of victory seldom and should never go to the machines that we race but to the creators of these machines. That is why we should humble ourselves and give glory to our creator in such victories and even failures as we did not choose our talents and skill sets. They are gifts from above.
All that being said, if you do not have a relationship with The Lord, and are not "good to go" you might want to rethink Land Speed Racing as a hobby choice. Maybe take up basket weaving or something safer. Heck, if I was not "good to go" I might think about never leaving the house as anything could happen to you out there.
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When Bill went down Sunday I was standing on the line right behind him. I was #3 in the hot box. When I saw it happen I too had the preverbial carpet pulled out from underneath me. Almost instantly I rode my bike back to the trailer, loaded up my stuff and went home. That was it, I was done. I didn't know of Bills passing at that time, officially. In my heart I knew, even though the words had not been said. I prayed he was going to be ok, but again my heart knew better.
As Sunday turned to Monday and into Tuesday I found myself wanting to go racing more. I returned to the runway, just to see. I don't know why I went back, closure I guess. Either way, it helped. Bill wouldn't want any of us to stop racing. Something went wrong on his run, and ultimately it cost him his life.
We take risks every day. When I got up this morning and turned the light on, it could of shocked me to death. When I left for work I could of been hit by a trailer truck, and the list goes on and on. Will I return? I cant say for sure but I can tell you this I just figured out how much it is going to cost me to run in Sept and I have already started pinching the pennies to do so.
Keith Turk said it best (or copied it, either way he posted it) " live without risk has no value"
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Greg;
The best answer I can think of was voiced by Steve McQueen in the movie "Le Mans".
Is getting to the top of Everest worth it? Is travelling to the moon and back in a Spam can worth it? To those who do it, yes it is worth it.
This is life-- nobody gets out alive. We are all going to die... shouldn't it be for something worthwhile? Everyone's definition of "worthwhile" is not the same, though. We all have to decide for ourselves if "it is worth it".
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I once read a poem that explained it very well. I can not remember who wrote it or all the lines
It started something like;
He never took a dare, He never took a chance.
He never stole a kiss or asked a fair maid to dance.
I wish I could remember the middle part.
The end was something like:
Saint Peter told him he could not be dead, because he never lived.
'If anyone has ever seen this poem or knows where I can find it please tell me.
Doug Odom in Big Ditch
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Doug, that is a GREAT answer!
It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes, by Theodore Roosevelt:
Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.
Yes Gregg, it's worth it!
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People are not going to stop racing. A real question is whether becoming the second guy to go 300 sitting on a motorcycle is really worth it.
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"Far Better is it to Dare Mighty Things, to win glorious triumphs even though
checkered by failure, than to Rank with those Poor Spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer
much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."
teddy r
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THANKS to both Doug Odom and 7800ebs.
Doug for presenting that quote and 7800 for identifying the author.
If you chance doing it, you will probably survive.
Walking the Bott Dots, carrying a reasonable load, on I-5 freeway
(MP 188) turned out to be doable.
FREUD
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It may not be. It not only is the answer going to change person to person, it is also going to change throughout your life.
I was racing at the Wilmington event last year when there was a fatal accident. I was there just to have fun and make some slow 140-150 mph runs on a slow bike in preparation to go to Bonneville targeting 200. I also brought my wife, dad and 6 & 3 year old daughters. My wife hates that I do this, but somehow seems to tolerate me. You can imagine her thoughts on continuing to race last year.
After being successful at Bonneville last year and nearly achieving my goal of a specific record (failed return run on a 207 down), I made the tough call to take this year off and focus on family. Kid #3 is due this Saturday. There were many factors that played into this, but for me for this year, the answer was, Racing wasn't worth it.
I am 100% sure that I will make runs on the salt and concrete again someday. However, the accidents, whether fatal or not, remind me that each time I throw a leg over the bike, I am putting it all at risk. That risk needs to be controlled and minimized in every way possible. One of those ways is to make fewer runs and that is what I have chosen to do this year.
I love the speed and agree with all of the comments that say "live life to the fullest". That's why I will be back. But I will do it when the other factors in life allow it.
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Gregg, at first I found your question rather annoying, then I realized that really it's everyone's individual decision. I've lost a few friends, acquaintances and heros over the years. Each time it hits you, sometimes harder than others.
You may be correct when you mention selfish, self centered and ego. We used to discuss this on our 12 to 16 hour trips to the west coast with the sprint car operation. We concluded that ego was required to race successfully both in the driver and the crew. That doesn't mean being obnoxious and superior but it does mean being truly confident in what you do and knowing that you do it well.
If you're truly a racer I think you'll make sure that if something happens your family will be able to move on financially. You'll never be able to make those who don't understand your passion feel good about what you're doing. If you don't feel good about entering any kind of speed event because of how others feel then probably you shouldn't be participating. It's an individual decision and I hope you chose to continue but you have to feel good about it.
Pete
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Bill's death hit me too, even though the closest I ever got to the man was buying one of his 311 tees, I admired his way of life.
On the rare occasion I buy a local newspaper, there usually is a familiar name in the deaths section, some younger, some older than me.
Life is short, sometimes shorted that we expect it to be.
My goal in life was to have a good time, marry, have kids, ride bikes, I have achieved these goals.
Somewhere along the way LSR entered my life, as a crew member 1st, then as the bug bit, a competitor.
I do this , not for anyone other than myself, my choice of bike was originally based on cost, then money was forgotten, it was spent as fast as it was saved in the attempt to do what others have failed to do, but not using a fast bike as a base, but a slow one.
Goals are fine, but its the journey that gives me determination not to get my name into the deaths notices, but it is inevitable I know.
I'll do it the hard way thanks .
RIP Bill :cheers:
Tiny
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If you hang out in this sport long enough, someone you know, or know of, will be involved in an accident. The overwhelming majority end with busted parts and mangled metal, but little or no "damage" to the biological component thanks to the stringent safety rules imposed by all the sanctioning organizations. When it all goes incredibly wrong someone dies.
As you pause to contemplate your involvement in this sport, consider this: It is the 100th year of salt racing where the fastest records have been inked with tens of thousands of runs down the saline speedway completed without a problem. In all that time less than a dozen people have died, but thousands have realized dreams of a lifetime. Find me another sport with a similar level of risk that has that kind of stat.
I addressed this exact subject head-on in my Fuel For Thought column that appears monthly in the Goodguys Gazette when John Beckett died in 2005. Perhaps there is a fragment of thought that may resonate with all of you now mentally wrestling with the resolve to continue or quit.
Cut and paste this link into your browser:
http://www.landspeedproductions.biz/wp-content/uploads/FFT_Dec05.pdf
LandSpeed Louise
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Well said Louise!
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I agree!
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Thanks Louise, very well written.
Pete
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you are on the button Lou. thanks.
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They way I behaved before my kids came along and after they left home has been entirely different.
I did not know Bill but I admired him---he was willing to shoot for the BIG MARBLE---" it is better to loved and lost than NEVER love at all!!
I decided a LONG time ago that my prayer to the Lord was to be able to leave this life with NO Major "Well, I wonder what if's". So far I have been BLESSED with enough COURAGE to follow my dreams so that I haven't had to address the road not taken.
I have always admired those who met misfortune and an untimely death by following their DREAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GOD SPEED BILL--I admire your courage and and your LEGACY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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That question always seems to come up when someone in racing dies in a racing accident. Ive been going to and participating as a crew person and owner/driver at the drags for nearly 30 years. Some of my heroes have died in racing accidents during that time. In the last 5-6 years I have lost two personal friends in racing accidents. We all know the inherent risks when we strap into or throw a leg up and over a race vehicle. As I told Sparky last night, I feel much safer strapping into a race car than I do driving down the road on a daily basis.
Is racing worth it? In the end, as others have said everybody looks at it differently. I know my friends would want me to continue on even after their deaths. At some point wether it being on the salt or the lakebed or down a dragstrip I will return to racing. Ill know the risks as I strap in and am given the signal to start. Ill say a little prayer asking God to watch over me and make run. If the good Lord is willing, Ill make it through that pass and make another, then another and so on. If he determines its my turn, Ill accept that and knwo Ive lived a good life and that my wife and kids will be taken care of with the life insurance money. In the end, yes it was worth it. It was I am most passionate about and live for.
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Kate's nephew, Nick Martin, who will be my crew chief this year, has a tattoo on his chest. It reads,
"Don't die wondering."
It's a condensation - and a cautionary allegory to Thoreau's famous line -
“Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.”
Is it worth it? Is racing worth the risk? It really depends on your song. There are soloists like Bill who break the new ground and leave a legacy. There are back-benchers in the tutti like myself with modest goals, backed by a respect for the process and the legacy of those who went before us, and who simply want to be a part of something bigger than themselves. There are those who want to show off a new hat. There are guys who just want an excuse to get out of the house for a week. The motivations are varied, but all are valid.
At this level - amateur racing with no monetary motivation or reward - it's all about perusing dreams. As human beings, what a privilege it is to be able to do that.
What kind of an example would I be to my wife, my family, my friends, if I didn't?
I'll take that privilege - I'll climb into my car, or I'll strap on a guitar, or I'll write that screenplay, or I'll fight city hall. I'll tilt at windmills, and I'll keep rolling the rock up the hill - but I won't live a life of quiet desperation - and I won't die wondering.
I owe that to the ones I love. And I expect the same from them.
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I owe that to the ones I love. And I expect the same from them.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
See you all on the Salt!
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All the previous posts are very inspirational. Funny enough, Joanie and I did not know of Bill's passing until we read the ship's internal newspaper. A single page news highlight which had the details in the sports section. While I didn't appreciate the news, I was glad to know of the tradegy.
Bill and I had a conversation at the salt a couple of years ago, following his 311 run. I asked him why he didn't participate at the salt even while crewing for the Steve Knekum, Mark DeLuca, Larry Forstall team. Bill mentioned he didn't feel safe at the salt which was OK with me, we each make our own decisons. Scott Guthrie and I have had conversations about how speeds have ramped up at the salt since we first met in the 1970s. Each time we throw a leg over or strap into a car could be our last ride. We do it because it is our passion, we are not stupid and have provided for our families in case of an accident.
Bill was not a member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club but, we all share in his loss, our loss.
Thank you all,
Dan Warner
President
Bonneville 200 MPH Club
BTW, I finally have access to a real laptop. I have found out that iPad email and Internet suck
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28,000 of your friends and relatives died in automotive accidents last year. Down from 43,000 in 2005. 3,572,000 total deaths in the U.S. since cars were invented.
Yet we still drive.
Bill was doing what he wanted to do. We all are. Risk assessment is part of what we do. The bulk of the rules are to reduce risk. The ultimate risk still remains.
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How do you know if there really is a Devil if you don't poke him in the eye every now and then?
Racing may not have have a true worth, but the payment is in the satisfaction of trying, and doing.
Smitty :cheers:
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From a lighter side:
On the back of our pickup we've got a two-line saying printed. The first line you've all seen a zillion times - "We're spending the kids' inheritance -"
The second line, though, is what shows one reason we race:
"...but they'll have cool stories to tell about us!"
At least when I'm an old(er) guy, sitting in the old folks home and sucking on my gums -- I'll be able to think back to the times when I did something that most folks never took the chance to do. . .
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On the rear of a trailer I saw at Bonneville, possibly paraphrased.
FASTER AND FASTER UNTIL THE THRILL OF SPEED OVERCOMES MY FEAR OF DEATH
It's worth it
Ron
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:cheers:
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I have worked the crash truck at Bonneville 10+ years and elmo (for a short time) have been at all those crashes. My job is to cut the driver, put out fires ect so the EMTs can work on the driver or rider . Yes I have had it cross my mind many times ( do I want to drive a roadster 250mph??. I have seen all the crashes, picked up the parts, helped EMTs remove drivers, cleaned blood for inside of cockpits so loveones don't see it. every crash leaves a hole in me and YES I still want to drive my roadster and It may this year. But I love the Salt and the racers and enjoy doing it.
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I did it for many years before Mike took over, I think I helped him out as he and I talked many times regarding rescue and how to approach each incident as no two are alike. I think he was a good student.
Mike, drive the roadster, you worked hard to build it.
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thanks Glen
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Mike---thanks for all you do---but most of all enjoy the roadster
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Sorry I have not responded but I had errands to run to get ready and then drive up from NC to Little Falls, NY for Bill’s funeral service tomorrow.
My inner voice told me I needed to do this as a final farewell for a friend.
As to the responses to my original post, I would like to say many, many thanks to all of you, from the bottom of my heart, for the insights and words of inspiration you have given.
Your words have helped answer some of the questions that I have running through my head.
I was going to try and single out some members posts, but everyone’s have be so poignant that I could not.
As I was reading all of this thread, I remembered this line from one of my favorite movies:
In the movie The Shawshank Redemption, Andy Dufresne played by Tim Robbins, says in a conversation with Red who is played by Morgan Freeman:
“It comes down to a simple choice, get busy living or get busy dying.”
I think this equates to what you have all said.
Again, many thanks
Gregg
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Gregg that's a great movie and a great quote for this very topic. Safe travels to you!
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YES! that's my answer, and I'm sticking to it.
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if it wasn't worth it we wouldn't do it. Amy and Frank.
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A couple of friends like what I do and offered to sponsor me on a Honda Superhawk. This is one of the modern ones that go really fast. The effort I am spending to go 150mph on the Bonneville would get me past 200 mph and a red hat on the hawk. And, and, a whole lot less money would fly out of my pocket 'cause I would be getting lots of help.
It was time to do some thinking. Basically, I am a family guy with bills, a job, children at home, and lots of folks depending on my paycheck. Plus, I like being with those people and doing a lot of other things in addition to racing.
Racing is not worth it on the hawk. Sponsorship puts on the pressure to perform. This means pushing things a bit too far sometimes. This is especially true when it comes to taking the time to test and develop. It is hard to do this when people have invested money in me and I have to deliver quick results. Also, a crash at 200 plus is a heck of a lot worse than one at 150. Also, I would be riding a Honda, a four cylinder one, and water cooled. Nothing I am familiar with.
Racing is worth it on the Triumph. It is plenty slow and sorta safe in that respect. Also, paying my way gives me the luxury of developing things slowly and making sure they are working good. Also, air cooled twins are my specialty and this makes the racing a lot safer. I know what to expect.
This is how I look at it. Racing is fun and worth it when I manage it within the framework of my life, overall. Racing is not worth it when it becomes a burden to those around me and I take too many risks.
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The Honda Super Hawk is a V Twin not a 4 Cylinder.
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Wobbly, I like your post. Everyone has to set their own limits and as long as you meet those limits or know you tried your best to do so then you can consider your endeavour a success. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Like Wobbly, I like to work with what I am familiar with and have cost/family constraints. I enjoy the learning part of this as much as the racing, so simply buying a fast vehicle would not have allowed me to continue to seek the solutions that always are necessary when running a slow one!
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I forgot about the Superhawk being a twin and should have remembered. The plan was to run it for twin cylinder records in FIM. A hawk with well done partial streamlining would do well. Sort of a poor man's equivalent of a Ducati or Aprilia. It is a workable plan for someone.
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A rut is just a grave with both ends kicked out.
Nobody understands why I'm building a car to tow a thousand miles and drive for a couple of minutes at a speed that the tow truck could probably exceed while towing it. It's because I'm 75, and my reflexes aren't what they used to be, and it's orders of magnitude safer than our open class rally car was, and I don't need a racing venue involving a second seat for my late co-driver wife. Not building another race car is not an option. Building it is most of the enjoyment, maybe all if it never reaches fruition. But the pursuit satisfies an itch at relatively low cost and racing it will definitely be low risk. And I don't feel like I'm stuck in a rut.
For me it's definitely worth it.
Bucketlist
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Having another view of this.
Let me tell you a short story of a Friend who passed a year ago.
Herbbie was a true hot rodder, driving his '27 T with a Miller Scoffeld A motor.
He took the motor out and boxed it when Uncle Sam called him to the South Pacific.
Upon returning, he found out that his Pop sold the motor and never found another one.
Fast forward to a couple years ago, Herbbie would come out to ElMo every time he could physically make the trip.(meaning we could get him in my truck)
He would come over to the shop and sit in his wheel chair and dream of again driving a hot rod. And telling me that Mod A's don't need this and that.
When the body can no longer do the minds will it is too late.
Gregg Moore was far too young, and he lived, at 200 mph.
John