Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: BurtonBrown on June 04, 2013, 10:34:26 PM
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OK, I now have three 10lb halon systems that apparently cannot be used anymore. 2 were never hooked up that came with the liner I am working on.
Before I spend 600-700 each for some new 10 LB systems, what are the options for landracing? There is one I see that is user refillable? What is legal? What are the differences?
Burton
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Why can't you use the halon? do the bottles show low?
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Burton, I second Stainless. I see you live in Wisconsin, so go to your nearest Fire Extinguisher servicing outlet (usually a Safety Apperal store).
As long as you bring in a copy of the sales brochure that shows the "full" Weight or if the bottle shows the "full"weight on it, all they have to do is weigh it and certify that the bottle has been inspected "by weight and appearance" only, meaning that the gauge does not appear to be tampered with.
There is one unscrupulous company that will tell you that the bottles are out of date, or his own filler is no longer good, that the SCTA is a bunch of Asshol*s, and that Jim Deist was the biggest Asshol* of all.
I won't name him but he is in Florida. Bob (AND IF HE WANTS TO ARGUE THE POINT, BRING IT ON...........).
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When we got our three Halon bottles years ago, I noticed one was noticeably lighter than the rest. Way lighter. The gauge was in the same position as the others. I took it to our local fire extinguisher company and the technician said the gauges will stay "green" with just a pound of pressure in them. (Your results may vary.) The manufacturer replaced the defective one at no cost.
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Just a note on my previous post.
I had no problem with the "Florida" product, just the Service side.
The gentleman I am referring to seemingly didn't see any $$$ signs in our discussion (I simply had asked for the Full Weight of the Five Pound bottles.... and the rant began).
I had previously dealt with the Company when they were located in Indiana and had pleasant dealings with them. Bob
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We interrupt this thread for a message from the emergency broadcast system.
Just for the record, Bob is not talking about Parkland Autosport. It just happens we too are in Florida and sell fire systems. Besides, if Bob called me I would take care of him.
Bob I hope you don't mind but even though it was coincidence I wanted to let people know.
Please resume the regularly scheduled discussion.
BR
Just a note on my previous post.
I had no problem with the "Florida" product, just the Service side.
The gentleman I am referring to seemingly didn't see any $$$ signs in our discussion (I simply had asked for the Full Weight of the Five Pound bottles.... and the rant began).
I had previously dealt with the Company when they were located in Indiana and had pleasant dealings with them. Bob
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Wheeler, No it was not you or ANY other dealer, it was whom ever answers the phone at the Manufacturer. And as I said in my last post, it isn't about the product, just the person.
Jim Deist had sold their product until Cold Fire came along. In this guys mind Jim Deist = SCTA, and the rest is History.
If I ever need service again you can count on my calling you. I believe in supporting our own and see no reason to change products, just who and where it is accomplished............................................. Bob
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Burton, who told you they are illegal? They may not be re-fillable but if they are fully charged Halon, they ONLY need certification BY WEIGHT to prove they are FULL.
If they are in a STEEL Bottle, they DO NOT GO OUT OF DATE. Period.
Your only concern shoud be that you are trusting your or your drivers LIFE on them............................ Bob
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Just so everyone knows, Wheelrdealer is the man that sponsors the cash
donations and the presents for the ladies at Bonneville NW Reunion.
I was so impressed that a man from Florida felt for an event in the Pacific Northwest.
Whenever any of you can, please support him.
Bill is our kinda' fellow. He handles fire systems and fittings for hoses.
Check his website: www.parklandautosport.com
FREUD
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Dr. I am honored by your kind words. I feel i have taken far more out of this well than I have put in.
LSR and land racing is a great bunch of people. For example, a few weeks before my first trip to the salt I did not have a push truck. A guy I never met other than this forum, built a push bumper and drove 12 hours to work with our crew. Didn't ask for anything and would barely let me buy him dinner. We are now good friends.
Work will keep me off the salt this year, but things should be less hectic next year. Like most everyone here, I think everyday about how I am going to get back to Speedweek.
BR
Just so everyone knows, Wheelrdealer is the man that sponsors the cash
donations and the presents for the ladies at Bonneville NW Reunion.
I was so impressed that a man from Florida felt for an event in the Pacific Northwest.
Whenever any of you can, please support him.
Bill is our kinda' fellow. He handles fire systems and fittings for hoses.
Check his website: www.parklandautosport.com
FREUD
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Guys,
Sorry for not posting a reply quicker. Been working lots at the real job and trying to get liner axle stuff done. The bottles came with the liner and were purchased new in 1998 they are Stroud bottles. They were mounted but no lines were ever run to them. I know I have a steel bottle that is a 10lb unit that is halon.....if what you guys are telling me and they are steel I really just have to have them weighed? I believe the two that came with the liner are aluminum but will check tonight with a magnet. They might be steel. My fire guy told me they had to be emptied and pressure tested......He may not know. So I will find out and post tomorrow.
I appreciate the help! :cheers:
Burton
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Call Stroud
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Might want to look for a more racer friendly fire guy... these bottles don't need to pass OSHA or any other official type testing. My local fire guy weighs them and tags them as inspected.
The vessel should only need to be pressure tested if it is empty before filling.
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OK guys,
The Stroud bottles are Aluminum with a date on the bottle of 1998. The lines and cables were never hooked up.
I have the original reciepts for these from Dan Wiesman who was building the liner. I did try to call Stroud a couple times but no answer???
The third bottle is a steel bottle "Flame Out" It was a yellow bottle but my Dad painted it red. I would trust any of them but let me know if they can possibly be used.
Burton
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Burton
The Stroud bottles look exactly like the current Firebottle product and are probably from the time when they were being private labeled for Stroud. Nothing outside on that one side indicates there is any issues. There is an o-ring in the top between the aluminum discharge valve and the bottle. You should check for dry rotted o-ring. I believe you can spin that valve off and you will see the membrane at the top of the bottle. Halon does not have any corrosive interaction with aluminum that I know of. So if they both weigh around 13 pounds they should be full. Now here is the $675 question. The only way you will know for certain is when you need the bottles to discharge. Good if they do....bad f they do not. I tested my system once when I was taking it out... I thought I got the safety pin in correctly but as soon as I disconnected the pull cable wire the bottle discharged. A $300 lesson in the proper way to insert the safety pin!
The steel bottle I am not familiar with.
BR
OK guys,
The Stroud bottles are Aluminum with a date on the bottle of 1998. The lines and cables were never hooked up.
I have the original reciepts for these from Dan Wiesman who was building the liner. I did try to call Stroud a couple times but no answer???
The third bottle is a steel bottle "Flame Out" It was a yellow bottle but my Dad painted it red. I would trust any of them but let me know if they can possibly be used.
Burton
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Yes, I agree with the needing it part you absolutely want it to work in case you intentionally pull it. My dad discharged one in the S10 one time. That was fun..... I would think they are ok. Biggest Question is who will tag them and are the Aluminum bottles OK to use for SCTA events?
Otherwise I did find some bottles on line for $475 I think.
Burton
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Burton, if I recall correctly, the "yellow" Flameout units werE indeed found to be defective by design and outlawed by the SCTA four or five years ago because they failed to discharge on command. The Stroud units of that Era,;however, were legal but un-refillable.
Please don't quote me as my memory is fading, but DO NOT Misunderstand THE WORTHINESS OF YOUR CURRENT STROUD BOTTLES WITHOT CaLLING BOB Stroud.
Other than that, you have been given MORE than enough advice, so do us all all a favor, buy a rule book and call the Damn Manufacturer rather than ask your fellow racers to define what somewhow eludes your apprehension........
Sign me: and yes I am a asshole. Bob............
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Ok, no chance this thread will grow to 100 pages!
Bob, your memory seems pretty good to me. I struggle with yesterday!
Burton good luck and let us know what finally decide to due.
BR
Burton, if I recall correctly, the "yellow" Flameout units werE indeed found to be defective by design and outlawed by the SCTA four or five years ago because they failed to discharge on command. The Stroud units of that Era,;however, were legal but un-refillable.
Please don't quote me as my memory is fading, but DO NOT Misunderstand THE WORTHINESS OF YOUR CURRENT STROUD BOTTLES WITHOT CaLLING BOB Stroud.
Other than that, you have been given MORE than enough advice, so do us all all a favor, buy a rule book and call the Dodge Manufacturer rather than ask your fellow racers to define what somewhow eludes your apprehension........
Sign me: and yes I am a Alfa. Bob............
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I would research using a Halon fire system in a confined space streamliner. Everything I have been told by extinguisher people is that Halon is deadly in a confined space. I use Cold Fire in my lakester.
Liberty Garage #221
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Liberty, I hope you have figured out how to steer with soap in your face. Most lakesters use a fresh air system to breathe... Bob
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Gentlemen,
Bottles are sent back to Bob at Stroud to see if he can recover the Halon and put it in new bottles. If this helps save some $$ thats cool. If not we tried.
Thanks for the advice. Parachutes were also sent back to him to take a look, They were new and never used but???
Burton
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Burton:
If that plan does not work out let me know. Let me know I may can help you with a new FE-36 System.
BR
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I'd trust any dealings with Bob Stroud.
Had two. Both came out fine with no charge. Recommend him to anyone.
Stan
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I was visiting with the FireBottle folks today at their shop. I brought with me six fire systems to get re-certified. I learned something today that I thought I would pass on. All systems regardless of the manufacturer has to be SFI certified to be approved by any sanctioning body. SFI has added an additional requirement from what I understand. Bottles older than six years olds can no longer be re-certified by the fire system company. The cert is for two years. This is a SFI requirement not the fire systems company. I get a lot of questions on used systems on RacingJunk, eBay or Craig's list. I know we all shop these site to try and save a buck. Be warned, if you buy someone's used system and it is 4 years old, you will only be able to get it certified for one 2 year term. Keep this in mind when you are shopping for used fire systems.
While we talking we were discussing the various water based systems out there. The guys at FireBottle brought up a good point. What if the system soaks the driver in this water based solution and the fire does not go out. It seems that the wet driver's suit would have diminished capacity to insulate the driver from the heat. The thought is the wet suit will heat quickly and the moister will transfer the heat directly to the skin leading to scald burns. I have no experience with these wet systems perhaps the scientific facts contradict our concern. If someone has experience with what happens, if anything, to a driver's suit if it gets soaked and exposed to fire please let me know.
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Cold fire demo with magnesium.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x65VWvjLFSY
Maybe it IS just soapy water but after looking at several videos on fire knockdown with magnesium, tires, fuel, etc, I'm convinced it works. Coldfire and others like it are approved by the sanctioning bodies, good enough for me.
Sounds like they are just trying to push their product.
I have Coldfire in all my water extinguishers in the shop.
YMMV
Ron
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Please alert me to where in Section 3Q these 6-year and/or SFI requirements are.
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Well now, isn't that SFI rule just dandy.
While I applaud the SFI for its safety standards, herein lies a couple of problems:
#1 The SFI is supported by fees that the manufacturers pay them (and WE end up paying), hence they are working hand in hand with the manufacturers of said products (what's good for the Hen is good for the Rooster)
#2 In the case of Halon Fire Bottles, Halon is a GAS and is not going to change its chemical makeup in a controlled atmosphere (the fire bottle) nor is it a caustic gas that can corrode the inside of the bottle. It is not going to spoil with age and being under pressure it isn't going to be compromised by anything else.
#3 Why would the SFI (who amongst other things require most racing bodies require new Fire Suits periodically for no apparent reason) require us to buy new helmets and seat belts because of supposed "material deterioration" rather than allowing Recertification by the manufacturers?
As I stated already, I applaud the SFI and Safety Equipment Industry for their research and development of better equipment, but I question the need for SFI dating WITHOUT published proof of need.
Bob Drury
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Please alert me to where in Section 3Q these 6-year and/or SFI requirements are.
Stan:
I was told this by my OEM and wanted to throw it out there to see if you all agree or is it rumor. All I know is my 2007 bottles came back un-certified because they were rejected for being over 6 years old. My 2011 bottles were certified no problem. They are FE-36and not the wet systems that have some corrosive properties. The salt is bad enough, I don't need my fire system adding to the corrosion problem. I was told it was not an OEM requirement but an SFI regulation. I was caught off guard. If it is in fact true, which it seemed pretty real to me, then my friends in the LSR world should know. I would not want someone to buy someone's five year old bottle thinking they can get it certified for two years. Not criticizing the SFI or regulation simply offering information. I do not know how it effects the do-it-yourself refill systems out there.
My 2 cents
BR
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I think the SCTA requires SFI certification for "STANDARDS" but does not require re-certs for time as in other forms of racing, scattershields, fire suits, hans devices, padding, etc.
I think with the new rules they are in collusion with mfgs. to sell more product, therefore more fees to SFI, more cost to the racers.
If the SCTA goes to time re-certs on all of the above, tire speed rating, tire age, on and on, I and probably a lot of others won't be able to afford to race.
JMHO
Ron
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I just reread the revised 3Q Section and I don't see any of the concerns or acts of collusion mentioned above. One manufacturer may want to put a time limit on their product certification (for reasons unknown), but I don't see it in the rules. And I don't see one manufacturer dictating policy in the SCTA.
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SFI 17.1 Says systems can't be used more than 6 years, have to be de-commisioned after that time. Copyrighted, can't post rule.
Ron
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BUT -- the SCTA Rule Book doesn't specify SFI certification. Maybe Warner or Stainless will ring in on this.
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Sent question to Roy Creel.
DW
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He's at the Puerto Rico Independence (PRI) festival in, I believe, Indianapolis this year.
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He's at the Puerto Rico Independence (PRI) festival in, I believe, Indianapolis this year.
Hmm, I always thought PRI meant something else automotive related? Thanks for clearing that up Stan! :-D :wink: :roll: :cheers:
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What is the expiration date of DRIVERS?
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Comin' right up!
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I can't guarrantee this definitively but I always thought ColdFire "corroded" Al bottles because it is a bipolar solvent, a "soap" Al2O3 is an impervious insoluable compound that protects the (very reactive)surface of pure Al, if you polish or dissolve this very thin corrosion layer, another will form, and another......til it is all gone.
As for the argument about soap v Halon. I have clients with aquired brain injuries, one from being trapped in a space with limited oxygen, not long, but long enough. Choose your poison, for me its "soapy water" :cheers:
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Thanks for the info guys, I am sure there will be more stated.
I am now in the market for a 10 pound push type FE-36 with 4 nozzles.
Mike
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Good info thanks.
This year I have replaced a set of belts, a helmet and two fire bottles. I figure SFI knows more about safety than I do. But I can't say I enjoy replacing what appears to be perfectly good serviceable equipment.
As a side note for those building cars that want a certain look we can powder coat a 5 or 10 lbs fire bottles any color you want. We then send the bottle to FireBottle and they will build and charge the system. We can even polish the bottles if you want that custom look.
BR