Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Jonny Hotnuts on May 30, 2013, 08:30:16 PM
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It has been very difficult getting in and out of my car due to the lateral head bar. I have it pinned and is removable but to release the driver needs to reach behind the helmet to unlatch.
I was mapping out a 'swing gate' that would open separately from the door and have the lateral head bar attached.....but....
Why couldnt I make the 'swing gate' attached TO the door so the door and gate would open with one action? My door already uses 2-5/8" pins that secure the door shut to the roll cage.
Basically I am talking about this attached to the inside of the door, that would also serve to open the door. The OEM hinges would act as the pivots but have heavy cables that secured the frame/expanded metal to the cage (and made in such a way if the door came off in the event of a crash the shown provisions would remain in the car.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/574555_10200843685870495_1053742021_n.jpg)
This setup would allow MUCH easier driver egress, (in AND out), eliminate multiple motions to open the door and provide auto retracting lateral head restraints.
Will this pass tech????
~JH
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Jonny, I may be wrong but I think the lateral restraint and "net" must be inside the roll cage parimeter. attaching to the door would mean that in the event of a mishap where the door could be RIPPED from the car you would have no protection. Seems to me anyway.
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I considered the same thing Mr. Thunder. The cables in the front and the large sliding locking bolts (*I could even use a positive lock) would be made to retain the assembly even if the vehicle lost the door.
I did not read anything that stated the 'net' had to be on the inside of the cage, only that it had to prevent limbs from exiting the vehicle in the event of a roll. I could have any level of stand offs to assure this proposed structure was within the plane of the cage.
~JH
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Interesting idea. Curious to se what the powers that be have to say / offer in the way of acceptable changes.
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I considered the same thing Mr. Thunder. The cables in the front and the large sliding locking bolts (*I could even use a positive lock) would be made to retain the assembly even if the vehicle lost the door.
I did not read anything that stated the 'net' had to be on the inside of the cage, only that it had to prevent limbs from exiting the vehicle in the event of a roll. I could have any level of stand offs to assure this proposed structure was within the plane of the cage.
~JH
Rule 3.D.3
I COMPLETELY understand your dilemma regarding small production based egress issues. Have you thought about an "L" shaped restraint with two collars that would slide up on a vertical bar attached to the cage? You could spring load it and use a pin with a tether to hold it in place. Pull the tether and it would pop up out of the way.
I constructed a spring loaded dead bolt hinge that attaches to the seat out of 1x2 steel.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/DSCN4795_zps0e8bbcba.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Midget%20Build/DSCN4795_zps0e8bbcba.jpg.html)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/DSCN4796_zps39a5b9ff.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Midget%20Build/DSCN4796_zps39a5b9ff.jpg.html)
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Glad you repied Chris as I was going to try to get the info on your setup to Mr. Nutz. It is a slick arrangement and keeps your hand in the motion of bail out.
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I did not read anything that stated the 'net' had to be on the inside of the cage, only that it had to prevent limbs from exiting the vehicle in the event of a roll.
~JH
Page 31/32 of the 2012 rule book. I don't have my 2013 book in front of me.
It has been very difficult getting in and out of my car due to the lateral head bar. I have it pinned and is removable but to release the driver needs to reach behind the helmet to unlatch.
~JH
Why not improve your release setup so you don't have to reach behind your head?
My $.02... you're not facing favorable chances of getting through tech with a restraint system that's anchored to your door.
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I thought there was a wine glass in the original pic :wink:
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/943296_10200845547237028_854933286_n.jpg)
This one Frankie! LOL I was just playing around with the glass.
Why not improve your release setup so you don't have to reach behind your head?
My $.02... you're not facing favorable chances of getting through tech with a restraint system that's anchored to your door.
Getting out current:
1. Release seatbelt
2. remove steering wheel
3. remove lateral head restraint bar
4. Un-latch net
5. Open door
and MUST be done in this order.
Getting out after:
1. Release seatbelt
2. Remove steering wheel
3. Open door.
(and done in any order)
Yes I can make the current lateral bar easier to remove but it still will be in a complicated chain of events. Speaking from personal experience of someone who has tried to get out of a smoke filled car in a hurry, the ORDER that things need to happen can become the burden. Clearly eliminating multiple steps and any necessary order is my goal.
Page 31/32 of the 2012 rule book. I don't have my 2013 book in front of me.
I have read over the rule multiple times, I am not seeing anything other then it needs to prevent limbs from exiting the cage and must be affective with the door closed.
BTW:>
I have consulted a higher power regarding this concept. Will let everyone know what the verdict is.
~JH
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JH, glad you went through the proper channels to get the results to your question.
To help you or others (maybe) further...
Page 33 of the 2013 SCTA rule book the second paragraph is what Nathan and your tech inspectors will be looking at.
That being said I understand your issue, but I'm not so sure solution will fly.
BTW, car #135 has a swing away cage but it's not connected to the door. I'll see if I can find a picture and post it.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/943296_10200845547237028_854933286_n.jpg)
This one Frankie! LOL I was just playing around with the glass.
Why not improve your release setup so you don't have to reach behind your head?
My $.02... you're not facing favorable chances of getting through tech with a restraint system that's anchored to your door.
Getting out current:
1. Release seatbelt
2. remove steering wheel
3. remove lateral head restraint bar
4. Un-latch net
5. Open door
and MUST be done in this order.
Getting out after:
1. Release seatbelt
2. Remove steering wheel
3. Open door.
(and done in any order)
Yes I can make the current lateral bar easier to remove but it still will be in a complicated chain of events. Speaking from personal experience of someone who has tried to get out of a smoke filled car in a hurry, the ORDER that things need to happen can become the burden. Clearly eliminating multiple steps and any necessary order is my goal.
Page 31/32 of the 2012 rule book. I don't have my 2013 book in front of me.
I have read over the rule multiple times, I am not seeing anything other then it needs to prevent limbs from exiting the cage and must be affective with the door closed.
BTW:>
I have consulted a higher power regarding this concept. Will let everyone know what the verdict is.
~JH
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BTW, car #135 has a swing away cage but it's not connected to the door.
A few vehicles have "jail doors". That's not the issue. The issue in my unofficial eyes is the proposed attachment to the door. Guess we'll see what the official response is.
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I can't make heads nor tails nor other parts of the illustration . . . but it seems to me if the door were to go away (as I saw up close and personal on a CC), it would "open up" the protection (???).
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I am not sure if this is a help or not, but MacDonald and Pitts have a swing out door bar assembly which includes a cage that fits into a male/female slot at the top of the door.... you open the door and swing out the entire door/cage assembly.
It is hard to describe without pictures and I know that they had to fight to have it allowed, but it finally passed tech and is pretty neat and plenty herky. Bob
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/984304_10200849685660486_1069297346_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/984304_10200849685620485_2145734250_n.jpg)
Based off this example except opening the 'gate' opens the door as well.
~JH
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Just to clarify, the pictures in the previous post ARE NOT the MacDonald and Pitts car buy may be the "ultra fast" Carter Family Flyer. Bob
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Now that is purty slick. The latch for the "gate" could be interconnected to the door. Notice how the gate is inside the outer plain of the cage. Not tring to be a pain but I wouldn't mount the gate to the door other than some sort of breakaway latch connection so the door could be unlatched as the gate is unlatched. Just tryin' to help.
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That would be tough to do with two different pivot points, and the pivot point for the cage would need to be within the outer perameters of the Cage. Bob
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JHN, after thinking about it some more I think there's certainly some merit to a single action that opens both the gate and the door while trying to exit the vehicle. What you obviously don't want, by having the gate some how linked to the door, is if the door is opened unintentionally that it allows the gate to open and obviously if the door is torn off that the gate not go with it.
Also, FWIW to add in my personal opinion, I'm not so hot on these door gates honestly. IMO there's too good a chance of those things getting pinched shut or wedged closed when the cage gets knocked around in an impact. Just my opinion. I'm not a door slammer guy so maybe I'm spoiled by not having to deal with nets.
FWIW #2, I inspected the McD&P car last year and did a bail out with the tall one (forget which is who or who is which) and they got through tech without a hitch. No punches thrown, no obscenities yelled.
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Nathan, thanks for piping in on this one.
I'll be doing my "bail out" practicing in the next couple of weeks. I've got a procedure I intend develop into "muscle memory".
Tell us "door slammers" what you're looking for on a demonstration bail out.
Thanks.
Chris
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I hope is illustrated in the above photos is legal because its the best I've ever seen for a coupe or enclosed car. ..J.D.
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There was a white Firebird? We looked at in tech that had a swing out cage. I beieve we talked about it here after Speedweek? Very sano.
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Tell us "door slammers" what you're looking for on a demonstration bail out.
Hi Chris, sorry for the delay... you've asked a good question that I want to answer. Obviously we want to make sure that you can get out of the vehicle "quickly" in an emergency but you obviously need to have pulled your chute(s), shut off the fuel, clicked off the ignition, and come to a stop before you exit the vehicle. We want to see you go through the motions of doing all those things.
Here are some examples of things to think about:
A lot of folks put their switches on their dash and then plop in the car and when asked to reach them they stick their arm out and say "look... see, I can reach them fine". Then we suit them up and put their limb restraints on and ask them to reach for the ignition switch. They stick their arm out and then bam, the limb restraints holds them back and they can barely touch the switch with tip of their gloved finger and the typical response is "oh, well I've never checked it with the limb restraints on before".
A lot of folks mount their chute release from the top of their roll cage and over somewhere to the side. And of course they can sit in the car, turn their head, see the release and reach over and pull it but you can't do that when you're fully suited up, belted in with a H&NR on. I've done the "you're getting warmer.... warmer... oh you're hot.... oops too far now you're cold" game and they're in there waving their hand around trying to find the chute release they can no longer see. Oh and a lot of time the release is just far enough away that they can't get to it with the limb restraints on.
Same thing with fire extinguisher actuators... don't put them where you can't see them or easily find them. Know where these safety items are.
Don't complain that your left arm limb restraint is being adjusted too short and not being able to undo the door net... you undo your belts before you take the net down. Also, when the tech inspector says "ok, you're on fire... bail out!" the first thing you shouldn't do is take your gloves off.... I see that a lot actually.
We want to make sure that you're relatively cool, calm, and collected and know what to do if something goes wrong. You should also practice exactly as you would as if you were in the car getting ready to make a run - have everything on. At the May El Mirage I did a bail out on a new car and I'm sure the driver had practiced many times but for whatever reason once he was in the car with full race gear on he couldn't get out. Sometimes its as simple as what shoes you wear. Your rubber soled street shoes probaby grip fine on the clean floor when you practice at home but put your fire suit booties on and throw some wet salt in the car and all of a sudden you're slipping and sliding and can't get out.
Oh and of course, we're looking to see that your belts are mounted correctly and that we can adjust them. The single most common belt problem is leaving the straps too long and running the buckle into the stitching as you tighten them down. Once you hit the stitching you can't go any tighter and if the belts aren't tight enough you'll have to adjust them. I've held people up from starting on their run because the belts wouldn't tighten up completely.
Last but not least, it isn't a race to see how quickly you can get out. Take your time... slow and steady wins the race. Be methodical. Don't thrash and then panic when you get hung up because you're trying to rip yourself out of the car. Pull the belts off slowly. Make sure everything is fully released. Get the door net down and out of the way. Take your time - be methodical - don't thrash.
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Something not mentioned is if the vehicle has stoped after the crash and upside down it's almost imposable to release the harness, If you can you will then fall on your head and in a heap trying to get out. Having been on the emergency response team for several years
I have seen this issue a few times. The Fire-rescue is usually at the scene with in 1 to 2 minutes, as well as the patrols. There first reaction is to assure there is no fire. In many cases the vehicle has to be up righted to get the driver unhooked and to check for injuries before trying to assist in the removal.
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Nathan, thanks. I appreciate the thoughtfulness you put into that response.
Chris
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Nathan, I wish their was a section in our rulebook for "Common Sense" answers like yours. It's a damn shame that only you and Dan have the Cajones to post frequently on our site.
I understand all the Politics, Privacy and Personality issues, but I wish the SCTA/BNI hierarchy would understand just how important this site is to EVERY COMPETITOR WHO DOESN'T LIVE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA or doesn't belong to a member club.
Thanx again, Bob
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I agree with the above BD statement.
On that note I feel there SHOULD be a PNW club. I hereby elect Bob as the acting club president (my idea so my authority to appoint).
As far as a name....well...."The Hotnuts Band of Ne'er-Do-Wels'' has a sweet ring to it. I am open for suggestions.....
~JH
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X2 on BD. everyone benefits.
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Something not mentioned is if the vehicle has stoped after the crash and upside down it's almost imposable to release the harness, If you can you will then fall on your head and in a heap trying to get out. Having been on the emergency response team for several years
I have seen this issue a few times. The Fire-rescue is usually at the scene with in 1 to 2 minutes, as well as the patrols. There first reaction is to assure there is no fire. In many cases the vehicle has to be up righted to get the driver unhooked and to check for injuries before trying to assist in the removal.
You will only undo your belt once if upside down and you forget to put your hand on the roof! Me "Mike before you undo your seatbel......" Mike "THUD! OUCH!" Brand new upside down Jeep. :-D
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Nathan answer is one of the best I have seen written down. For many years as an inspector, even before bailouts were mandentory, I would check to see where all switches and levers were placed for an emergency, not normal, shut down. Many had to move their devices after the bailouts were started.
One of the biggest problems I encountered was how few drivers had sat in their vehicle at home and practiced with all safety gear on. To tell the truth it was embarresing for them and their crew man putting the driver in the seat. Some belts were not adjusted close at all. This caused a longer wait for those behind in line.
The other thing was some felt they were under some "time" limit which I assured them they WERE NOT when I was incharge. Their instruction was to shut down the car as quickly as they could, accuate fire protection as needed and remove themselves safely from the vehicle. People standing arround watching was not a help at times. For coupes I would normally watch for the opposite side door if I could. After my instruction most were a lot better settled and knew I was there to help and not hinder. Nathan is that way and it does make a difference.
Every rear before Bonneville or El Mirage I practice at home suited up and I've driven the same car for 33 years. Learning what was best with a Hans at home meant I would know what to do under pressure after an incident.
I would not allow my son to drive his dirt car without a head/neck device and we recently changed his belts to the 2" over the Hans where he had 3" and I can tell you 2" is much better for the driver. None one in his organization checks any bail out but you can bet Patrick has practiced many times. Just like pulling himself in the seat. I sometimes feel it's Bob Higbee hands touching his as he pulls himself in.
Everyone reading Nathan's note should take heed and practice until you can do it all blind folded. It may save your life....Thanks Nathan.................JD
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Something else to consider: Get (or stay) in shape! Take it from me, someone who was large and completely out of shape, getting in and out of any race car fully suited up was difficult and almost claustrophobic. Now being of normal size and in shape (especially core strenght) getting in and out is a breeze. Also, since I brought this up, I always wondered how well saftey harnesses would work on 300+ lbs.
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Tman, the only problem is if you weigh 240 like I do, a one armed push-up (when upside down) is beyond my grasp.... I am thinking about glueing a go-cart innertube on top of my helmet................... just sayin..............
Bob :roll: :roll:
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All good information. Way down here in S. Florida this forum is the primary source of information. Not sure there are a lot of Bonneville clubs down here.
If you practice alone might be good idea to use your gopro camera to record your bailout practice. Review the recording to see what your bailout looks like. Besides you need to charge and cycle your gopro battery anyway.
BR
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If you practice alone might be good idea to use your gopro camera to record your bailout practice. Review the recording to see what your bailout looks like. Besides you need to charge and cycle your gopro battery anyway.
BR
Even with a helper it's a great idea. Recordings can be played back multiple times allowing viewers to focus on different details in the same bailout. Amazing what a camera can catch that we didn't "think" was there or happening.
Ed
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Pork Pie had a very comprehensive bailout. Strapped in, eyes closed, inspector called out what control to touch, random callouts. After he was convinced he knew where everything was, we closed him in and the inspector told him he had an emergency at speed and had him call out what he was doing as he did them. Good bailout
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Tman, the only problem is if you weigh 240 like I do, a one armed push-up (when upside down) is beyond my grasp.... I am thinking about glueing a go-cart innertube on top of my helmet................... just sayin..............
Bob :roll: :roll:
That might be a solution! :-D
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Nathan, I wish their was a section in our rulebook for "Common Sense" answers like yours. It's a Dodge shame that only you and Dan have the Cajones to post frequently on our site.
I understand all the Politics, Privacy and Personality issues, but I wish the SCTA/BNI hierarchy would understand just how important this site is to EVERY COMPETITOR WHO DOESN'T LIVE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA or doesn't belong to a member club.
Thanx again, Bob
BD, I certainly appreciate the compliment but it's a little stigmatic to say that those who don't post do so because they don't have cajones and that I do. I just happen to be a "forum guy" in general and I happen to be an "SCTA guy" as well. If someone has a question that I can answer, why not answer it? I'm sure if you called up any of the tech inspectors and asked them the same question you'd get a very similar answer.... it's just that I happen to be here on the fourm. And it's probably more of me being stubborn and maybe a little too out spoken at times than having cajones but nonetheless I try to help out when and where I can.
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Nathan Stewart:
I appreciate all tech feedback. It's a 2,700 mile tow one way for me. I was able to adjust or fix a lot of things before I got to the salt in 2011. Of all the things we did we still forgot to address two important issues that I did in fact remember reading here but forgot in the rush to get ready.
Item one was the inertia switched to interrupt the electric fuel pump on impact. Fortunately there was a guy with a few for sale on the salt. Took a few minutes to wire up. The second was the way we set up our fuel vent. It was good on the roof, one the passenger side but the inspector pointed out that if the car rolled and stayed on the driver's side fuel could siphon out. We were thinking of the check ball in the tank but that ball might not seat if the car settles on its side. A few AN fittings and some hose it was safe from all sides.
Trust me when I say there a bunch of things we learned from this forum that we changed before we arrived at Speedweek. Otherwise we might have been spectators. So a big thank you for sharing your tech inspection insights with all of us.
BR
Nathan, I wish their was a section in our rulebook for "Common Sense" answers like yours. It's a Dodge shame that only you and Dan have the Cajones to post frequently on our site.
I understand all the Politics, Privacy and Personality issues, but I wish the SCTA/BNI hierarchy would understand just how important this site is to EVERY COMPETITOR WHO DOESN'T LIVE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA or doesn't belong to a member club.
Thanx again, Bob
BD, I certainly appreciate the compliment but it's a little stigmatic to say that those who don't post do so because they don't have cajones and that I do. I just happen to be a "forum guy" in general and I happen to be an "SCTA guy" as well. If someone has a question that I can answer, why not answer it? I'm sure if you called up any of the tech inspectors and asked them the same question you'd get a very similar answer.... it's just that I happen to be here on the fourm. And it's probably more of me being stubborn and maybe a little too out spoken at times than having cajones but nonetheless I try to help out when and where I can.