Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: jo maoma on March 22, 2013, 02:45:41 PM
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i was wanting to run a motorcycle tire on my streamliner build (the tire is speed and load rated
for the car weight and existing speed record) but was a bit confused by the rulebook wording.
who do i run my request by? book mentions a contest board for non-rated tires...
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Contact your committee chairperson, section 16
DW
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Got word back, no moto tires of any
kind on four wheel vehicles...
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Got word back, no moto tires of any
kind on four wheel vehicles...
Hummmmm. . . . .
Wonder how this one got through. ??
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh99/Arto_x04/IMG_6009_zpsc7b9995f.jpg) (http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh99/Arto_x04/IMG_6071_zps827a7947.jpg)
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Another oops perhaps?
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you would think if the tires were of the appropriate load and speed rating, It wouldn't matter how many wheels they were intended for.
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Hard to imagine that a small streamliner would induce more forces, perhaps side loading in a spin, than the MotoGP boys subject their bikes to on the fast asphalt tracks where they can actually slide both ends at the same time. It would be interesting to inquire of Michelin or Bridgestone, who make tires for both 2 and 4 wheelers, what their opinion would be. We had a guy run at Loring on a street Luge with a Buell motor that went over 150 on what looked like oversize skateboard wheels. He had a letter from the manufacturer of the wheels that rated them for 180mph. I believe he also ran at Bonneville, probably just for time (but it still should have passed tech), but which event I don't know.
That's me trying it on for size, but I'm not crazy enough to try it out!
Tom
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Running at Bonneville does not necessarily mean running at an SCTA event.
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you would think if the tires were of the appropriate load and speed rating, It wouldn't matter how many wheels they were intended for.
that's what i was thinking but Mr Kennedy said the concern was
with the bead on the moto tires staying seated IIRC...
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The K/GL lakester is in tech at WOS, it would have to be pre 2008, cause I didn't have that embrella that year, it got run over I think in 2007. The tent was handed down to MC tech in 2008, and the lakester would not be in MC tech. In 2007 the record for that class was 149 and change. Can you tell the tires are actually MC tires from the picture? Do you know what year the MC tire rule came about, I believe it was after a car incident years after that picture was taken. Why stir the pot when the facts aren't really known?
:roll:
The proper procedure was followed, and the proper answer has been given. Lets dig up a picture from the early 50s' and question why we have to run with roll cages, these guys didn't.
Steve
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The street luge first came to WOS in 2006, he ran it in the 130 club. with a smaller engine. He had full leathers, and was very professional, he didn't make it that year, but hot rod mag did an article about him, in which he stated that he was coming back to run in the 150 club. The next year he showed up with the bigger engine, and we told him to run the 130 before trying the 150. He froze up the wheels before he got to 130, but he got close, the next year he had the new wheels and run the 150, I believe he has run every year since then, but I did not see him in 2012. I don't believe he ever made the 150 club on the salt, but he has a lot of fun trying, and comes very close, the longer run gets him over the 140 mark, I would have to check back to see exactly how fast he has gone, it would be in the 150 club runs, at www.saltflats.com for 2009, and 2010 for sure. Before somebody gets wound up, the 130, and 150 clubs do not fall under SCTA/BNI rules. :-P
Steve
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I just saw a video of some guy named Ab Jenkins running at Bonneville without a head and neck restraint. Whatsup with that?
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And then there's Freud. :-D
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didn't mean to stir the pot just posting my thoughts and the info i had. i'll try to not
be so inflammatory in the future no one else has to add me to their ignore list...
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didn't mean to stir the pot just posting my thoughts and the info i had. i'll try to not
be so inflammatory in the future no one else has to add me to their ignore list...
Your posts are just fine, you are not the one putting up old pictures, which insinuate the officials are selective on who the rules apply to.
Steve
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well i wasn't sure. i've spent a lot of time on a lot of forum and this is the first
time i've been put on anyones ignore list so i'm rubbin' someone the wrong way... :-D
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Don't worry about being ignored. I'm ignored by two. One is a spambot that once his spam posting was erased by SSS he shows as having made 0 posts. The other is a guy who made one post back in 2011 and never posted again. Ignores are only one person's opinion and it's pretty hard to please everyone. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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JoM, I just checked... it is not me but I have found occasionally the my computer ignores folks if I move my mouse "wrong" :|
I doubt you have offended anyone based on what I've read. I wouldn't worry about it, folks ignore stuff I write all the time.... :-D
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Wow! I didn't know about ignorers. I'm only ignored by one person and I try hard to ruffle feathers. Maybe they're just not informed about how to do it. But I guess my wife figured it out.
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JoM, may haps you know my wife, she ignores me all the time. I found this to be helpful as I was condsidering Bike tires (Tyres) for a small liner I'm thinking about.
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Jo M, you may want to look at the Goodyear front runners built for drag racing. For the smaller engined classes they're probably as good a choice as any and not nearly as expensive as the lsr version.
Pete
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First..... what exactly is the car going to be ?..... What speeds do you expect?.... Okay now..... with a bit more information, we could possibly steer this topic to viable alternatives to motorcycle tires.
I know that up until 2009, I ran both Goodyear and Hoosier dragster frontunners on my lakester.... we had gone over 230 mph.... in 2009, which was after Cliff Gullett was fatally injured in a horrific crash in later 2008, the use of these front runners was "discouraged".... In 2009, we were licensing two drivers and we were also heavily scrutinized due to the use of these tires. We had a flat on one of them, which caused a number of "See, we told you" type of comments.... trouble was though...... the real evidence showed a deep cut in the tire though. We had no further trouble with the frontrunners for the rest of the week and we made several 220+mph runs on them...... in fact, Lee Kennedy asked us, after about run 7, to remove the restriction sticker from our car.....
Having said the above, there is still a restriction against using the small dragster frontrunners as driven tires!
Also, there is also, fairly recently released (by Goodyear), a (IIRC) 500X17 (5") wide dragster style low profile frontrunner tire..... it has a much higher weight rating.... other than that, I know nothing about it..... but my personal opinion is that drag front runners have not been troublesome until into the higher 200s of miles per hour - if even then....
So, there are economically priced viable alternatives to motorcycle tires here.....
Good luck!
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well i wasn't sure. i've spent a lot of time on a lot of forum and this is the first
time i've been put on anyones ignore list so i'm rubbin' someone the wrong way... :-D
I don't know how the ignore works, probably hurt my feelings if I did. But I think it would have something to do with your avatar, and ID. Being a hay seed from Idaho I don't understand what it is all about, I could see where someone might be offended by your race monicur, and the picture of what I think is the Chinese ruler, I can't spell emperore.
:?
Steve
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Jo M, you may want to look at the Goodyear front runners built for drag racing. For the smaller engined classes they're probably as good a choice as any and not nearly as expensive as the lsr version.
Pete
yah i was looking for a smaller tire up front to make the "packaging" a bit easier.
it's early on so it's not the end of the world just looking at options. you're right
the front runners are probably my best bet, goodyear has a 23" and m&h has a
22" that i can make work...
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The M&H has a ribbed pattern that I don't know would be kosher for a bike.
(I like 'em -- Change from the Goodyear 25"(?) to the M&H 22" put me in the 2 Club -- and I could steer!)
Stan
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The K/GL lakester is in tech at WOS, it would have to be pre 2008, cause I didn't have that embrella that year, it got run over I think in 2007. The tent was handed down to MC tech in 2008, and the lakester would not be in MC tech. In 2007 the record for that class was 149 and change. Can you tell the tires are actually MC tires from the picture? Do you know what year the MC tire rule came about, I believe it was after a car incident years after that picture was taken. Why stir the pot when the facts aren't really known?
The proper procedure was followed, and the proper answer has been given. Lets dig up a picture from the early 50s' and question why we have to run with roll cages, these guys didn't.
There is language in the rule book concerning tires. ( Have you read the rule book Steve? ) Anyway. . . that language (section 2.F Tires:) does not say anything that would imply that motorcycle tires may not be used on cars. It does say that if you want to run non-rated tires, or aircraft tires, or a reproduction of vintage automobile or motorcycle tire . . . . . that you need to get approval from the contest board 45 days prior to an event. The way that that one sentence is worded about reproduction tires makes it somewhat confusing about the MC tire . . .is it refering to all motorcycle tires or just reproductions of vintage motorcycle tires? . . . In any case there is nothing that specifically says 'no motorcycle tires on cars.'
The photos were from a few years back but they weren't from "the early 50s' " And yes, I can tell that the tires are motorcycle tires from looking at the photos. I have other photos of that car because I felt it was unique and had many interesting features so I copied several photos to my conputer for later reference. Would you like me to post another picture showing a closer view of one of the tires? In another post you said I posted old pictures to " . . insinuate the officials are selective on who the rules apply to." Where did I say that Steve?
In any case my intent was not to 'stir the pot.' or to 'insinuate the officials are selective on who the rules apply to.' My intent in posting the photos was to show that at least one car in recent history has run with bike tires. I had hoped that would generate some discussion on the pros and cons of using bike tires on cars. There are issues that can cause problems. Generally speaking, motorcycle tires have a different bead contour than car tires. So mounting bike tires on wheels designed for car tires is both difficult and dangerous. This can be overcome (I am told) by having wheels built that are designed to hold bike tire beads. Maybe someone with actual experience doing this can chime in here.
The hoped for advantages in running motorcycle tires is reduced rolling resistance and a narrower profile than car tires. Assuming adaquate speed rating and load ratings, motorcycle tires can offer a price advantage over some car racing tires. For the purposes of the original post concerning tires to run on a streamliner see other posts about frontrunners (PeterJack, Fastman614)
Soooo. . . .
You asked " Do you know what year the MC tire rule came about?" My answer is "No." More specifically . ."what MC tire rule?"
You said, " . . . I believe it was after a car incident years after that picture was taken." To which I ask, "what car incident?" More specifically, . . what car incident involving a car running MC tires that had an incident caused by using MC tires on a car?
You asked "Why stir the pot when the facts aren't really known?" My answer is "If we don't know the facts how else do we find the answers?"
Don't get me wrong, I think the SCTA is a excellant organization, manned with first rate men and women that work hard to sustain and advance the sport of land speed racing. But there could be improvements in communicating with the general LSR public. The SCTA rule book is pretty darn good. But the vast variety of classes, car and motorcycle models, technical advancements, and evolving safety requiremnts make it impossible to publish a rule book that can cover everything.
And I know that this forum is not the official way of getting SCTA technical, class and safety rule clarifications. If you have an SCTA rules question go to section 16 in the SCTA rule book and contact the appropriate representative to get your answer. I've done this a few times over the years. Each time I've done this has always resulted in getting a prompt and complete response. No problem.
But there is a problem . . . when one person asks one question and gets one answer . . . only that one person knows that answer. It would help the whole LSR community if those questions and answers could be put out to the public. This might sound like more work for the SCTA. But it might prove to be less work in the long run because it saves re-answering the same question over and over.
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No jack intended but what tires are Poteet, the Maro Special and others using?. I could be mistaken but the little I've seen doesn't look like over the counter stock to me. Thanks and hope I haven't offended. In a photograph of the Maro Special covering the rear section all I could see was the word Experimental and under that Bonneville but the rest was obscured.
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I could dig through the photos and get shots of the Speed Demon tires - but it'd take me a while. Let it be said that Nate Jones is the tire guy for the team, and he not only supplies the tires but goes to Speed Demon events so he can maintain and inspect them. I guess you could ask him.
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Little liner, glad to see your answer, I figured you were working on a good rebutle.
I live the rule book, get to attend the changes every year, spent most of my life teaching about different rules, and regulations. I understand how everybody interprets what the rules read differently. There is a lot of wording that I don't understand in the dry lakes rules. I'm lucky enough to be able to get a lot of experience every year so I can understand them better.
I just thought you took a cheap shot at the officials and techs, they put in a lot of time and hard work to make our addiction possible.
2.F is language in the four wheel section of the rule book, since the MC is a different set of rules, and sections, the language in the first sentence would clarify what this thread is about. If you look for the class you are running in for tire requirements, you will be looking at car records not MC records.
Steve
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Does the rearrangment of this sentence from 2.F, 2013 rulebook read better?
"The use of any non-rated tire(s) such as implement, farm, aircraft, motorcycle, reproduction of a vintage automobile tire, 17" drag race tires or any non-pneumatic wheel/tire combination (no rubber) shall be submitted for approval to the contest board in writing 45 days prior to an event."
DW
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Does the rearrangment of this sentence from 2.F, 2013 rulebook read better?
"The use of any non-rated tire(s) such as implement, farm, aircraft, motorcycle, reproduction of a vintage automobile tire, 17" drag race tires or any non-pneumatic wheel/tire combination (no rubber) shall be submitted for approval to the contest board in writing 45 days prior to an event."
DW
Dan, to me it is clear - the clause as written does NOT specifically preclude the use of motorcycle tires.... It DOES, however, require a written submission to the contest board!.... I would assume that a carefully thought out submission with as much relevant information as is possible to obtain would be included in the contents....
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We ran motorcycle tires on the lakester until we realized that it would go a lot faster with smaller tires. I think 208 to 211 was the fastest we ran them.... was in the days when we ran 3 runs, so probably early 90s.
With all 4 bike tires, ran about 176 on gas
Picked up 10MPH with the small fronts on gas... This pic was when we were running 2 passes on N20 in the 208-211 range... required 3... small back tires and a lot of testing put JB in the club in 95... of course we had 2 years off to prepare.
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Dan
I don't have a 13 book yet. In your "valued" opinion, do you think the 18" Dunlops mine and several other roadsters are running, fall under the "reproduction of a vintage automobile tire" classification? They are a reproduction of a vintage "racing tyre" and have been ran at speed. Does the fact they say racing on the side make them legal or do we need to try to get special permission or are they just flat out banned?
Thanks for all the help, time and wisdom you give to this board. It is greatly appreciated.
Ron
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The Dunlops have been used as you mentioned. I am not allowed to put forth an official decision. Please contact either Lee Kennedy or Steve Davies, section 16 in your rulebook.
These tires are not specifically forbidden in the rulebook - see rule 1.A.
Good luck,
DW
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To all of those I have offended, I'm sorry. The picture that was posted has two of my good friends and fellow techs in them, I took the picture as a personal insult to their integrity and acted stupidly. I'm sure it wasn't posted in the way I took it, you have the right to post what ever, and say what ever. I'm not the master of good intensions I think I am, I'm just a crotchity old flacthulater, I didn't want to become.
Steve
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The car in the photos is Darrell Zipper's K gas lakester that he ran several times probably 5-6 years ago. It had a 440 snowmobile engine in it and I don't think that it ever ran over 120. I happen to be in the inspection area when Darrell was discussing the use of motorcycle tires with the SCTA inspectors. The reasoning went something like this: The tires are rated for 165 mph, their load rating exceeded the corner weights of the car by a pretty large factor, and the class record at the time was about 150 mph.
If you look at say the Pirelli GP motorcycle tires they are speed rated at 165 mph and that could certainly probably be moved up by shaving the tires. Before the new motorcycle tire rule change came out several years ago that the faster "sit on" bikes, ie turbo Hyabusas etc, must run on Bonneville speed rated tires most of them ran on the GP style Pirelli, Dunlop, Michlen tires and there were many runs over 250 mph. If you looked at the lead blocks strapped to the swingarms of these bikes and add the riders weight into it I would bet that the tires were carrying 300+ lbs loads.
Regarding the Goodyear 17 inch dragster front tire, I think that the small section tire is limited to 200 mph max speed but I have never heard what the Bonneville/SCTA speed rating is on the new dragster front tire that is somewhat wider. The problem, as I understand with the small dragster front is that at about 275 mph the tire will not stay on the bead, and there have been incidences of this happening which lead to the 200 mph speed limit.
Rex
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Dan, to me it is clear - the clause as written does NOT specifically preclude the use of motorcycle tires....
that's how i was reading it and why i wanted to clarify, but as i said i was told
no moto tires period so maybe a tweak of the text is still needed (i was thinking
it was just me being slow on the uptake)... :-D
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First..... what exactly is the car going to be ?..... What speeds do you expect?.... Okay now..... with a bit more information, we could possibly steer this topic to viable alternatives to motorcycle tires.
i guess i should start a build thread. i was building it to run on the Ω/GS
record of 55.139 the car is being designed to run a rotary vane motor
powered by Mentos and Diet Coke...
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Rex, I've told my experience with Goodyear 17" dragster front tires on this forum on a few occasions. I blew one at about 270 and hit the 4 mile marker. The other tire was on the verge of failure as several big chunks of rubber had come off it. Lee said "no more". So when I set the record in 07 I had shaved 24" M@Hs on the rear.(FWD) I asked Lee if I could try motorcycle race tires and he agreed. He followed me the first couple trial passes. eventually made 6 or 7 runs over 270 with the sides completely shaved and about half of the tread shaved. I am going to shave the last 80 or so thousanths off the crown of the tire and believe they would be good to 300. The Pirelli engineers that allowed me to buy there tires for a non MC purpose looked at the Goodyear Front runner that failed and reckoned the bead which they had me cut so they coud observe its construction was about half as strong as the tire they chose for me to use. The clincher was the radial steel cords that they said prevented the tire growth that lead to the Goodyears failure. Anyway, I ain't afraid.
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To all of those I have offended, I'm sorry. The picture that was posted has two of my good friends and fellow techs in them, I took the picture as a personal insult to their integrity and acted stupidly. I'm sure it wasn't posted in the way I took it, you have the right to post what ever, and say what ever. I'm not the master of good intensions I think I am, I'm just a crotchity old flacthulater, I didn't want to become.
Steve
Ditto.
I have a short fuse sometimes. I can assure you that no matter how it may have appeared, I was only offering the photos to generate more discussion about using M/C tires on cars. I did not intend to imply anything negative about any officials.
Art
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As George (racergeo) has said he has ran over 270 with shaved motorcycle tires and the application was approved by SCTA and his experience has been nothing but positive so if you are thinking about this type of application obviously you need to be contacting the right people at the SCTA. Thanks for your input George as you know it was your experience I was talking about. George's application are the rear tires on a front wheel drive lakester so they are not driving the car only holding the back up and going along for a pretty fast ride.
Rex