Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: landracing on May 31, 2006, 02:26:58 AM
-
Are these legal bikes???
-
With the current definitions they are probably legal in AA/FS or they might fit into the GT class.
-
They are still in the protest period so anything can happen.
-
These all ran the May el Mirage meet.
Let me first state the rule pertaining to A or APS rear seat or tail section 7.G.10
Special Construction - Open Class See Modified Production, Section 7.F.11
7.F.11
Open Class - 2. Seat or Tail Section must conform to partial Streamlining rules.
Now we move onto Special Construction (El Mirage only runs A or APS Classes)
Partial Streamlining 7.G.11
Partial Streamlining: There must be no streamlining other then a seat or tail section to the rear of a line drawn vertically through the axle of the rear wheel, and the wheel must be clearly visible for the 180 deg. of its circumference to the rear of such line....... No Part of the seat or tail section that extends beyond the rear axel may be lower then the top of the rim of the rear tire, with the rider seated on the bike.."
Jon
-
What does it matter, they are just bikes ?
-
Guess it depends on the tech's definition of "streamlining." The first bike is clearly within the rules for the rear fender. The second seems to be, but what is that hump on the fender? And can it be an advantage areo-wise? The third has the wheel covered above & behind the axle, a rule breaker.
Or was your question about seat height?
Or pushrods in Vintage?
Sam
-
Daken,
There is no mistake... Doesnt matter about what they interpret. The rule states "No Part of the seat or tail section that extends beyond the rear axel may be lower then the top of the rim of the rear tire, with the rider seated on the bike.."
They are all in violation of this rule.
Along with a violation of the the 180 degree rule, beyond the rear axel must continuous and visible...
IN the first picture you can see a bar attached to rear seat go beyond the rear axel. It is slightly leaning towards the rear. The second picture is clearly visible. The third also violates this rule.
So each bike has several violations just on those two points...
Jon
-
Before the giant proliferation of classes at El Mirage there were fewer rules
and that type of streamlining would have been allowed.
The streamlining limits are actually safety related
but few understand or appreciate them.
The conditions at El Mirage are different and the rules were more relaxed.
All of this with the input and cooperation of the entrants.
That has changed but I am not sure if it is at the pleasure of the rulers or participants.
While the rules might benifit from being the same as Bommeville,
the enforcement has not been and what you see is the result.
The worst rule is one that you might not need and only casually enforce.
I guess making your own minimums and benefiting from them would be
right up there and I can show you that also.
NEXT
STAY TUNED
"A good student of history has a better view of the future."
-
I guess you could also say the third is illegal also because on no number plate clearly visible.
Jon
-
uh, so if they are in violation of the "rules" can they just run TO?
-
I dont have an answer for the "TO" bbb.
But rules do state "IF an appropiate class exists, all vehicles must run in that class. Any vehicle, which is not legal for any class, but meets all technical regulations, will run for Time Only."
Even if TO, part of the Technica Regulations is a number plate rule 7.B.1. But I just may not be able to see it.
And two of the three ran in a class for points which the entrant gets and the club they belong too gets... I dont know about the third because there is no number visible.
Jon
-
Did they set any records? If not they are probably legal. Maybe we need rules that are not subject to "interpretation".
-
Maybe they are racing in the
"Run Watcha Brung" class!!!!!!!!
-
all 3 do not appear to be legal for class
-
On my e-mail it would seem a picture is worth a thousand words.
-
Maybe we need rules that are not subject to "interpretation".
............Soloman would be disappointed..... :wink:
-
all 3 do not appear to be legal for class
Club points are on the line and are very closely watched if you get a chance to see.
It is not just the winner that is subject to all the rules.
The unwritten rules are more of a matter of courtesy.
-
OK.Ok. Dan said quit "bitching" and
get involved........I am running for M/C Rules Committee member for
SCTA/BNI
Here is my resume: 70 years old, been involved with motorcycles for the past 55 years. BNI Member for 27 years,raced dirt track, MX, Roiad Raced solo's and sidecars in the U.S. and Europe, AMA Charter Member, AMA sidecar coordinator in the 1970's, wrote the first BNI sidecar rules (the rules have since been bastardized without my help)
rewrote the AMA sidecar rules for 2006 (allow passengers) AMA Hall of Fame selection committee member.
build all my own stuff (frames enc.) strong supporter of the all M/C BUB event......Independently wealthy (Harley Davison, S&S, Joe Rocker Leathers....stock) Good looking, SOMEWHAT even temperament
......I will be expecting a call from M/C Rules Chairman... my phone number is on file at SCTA/BNI.
P.S. Oh, yes I have never heard of Jack Dolan
-
Bob
You were recently listed on the MC rules committee but not now.
How did you do ?
(Bob is getting a little short on memory. Roid Racing is a sport mostly confined to elders.)
-
If I was allowed to vote you'd have mine.
-
Yes, Jack. I was listed as a
"sidecar advisor" in the rule-book
under the last regime.......but nobody would take my advise.....next thing I know my name was no longer in the rule-book
....I think my "great advise" was no longer needed.
-
OK.Ok. Dan said quit "bitching" and
get involved........I am running for M/C Rules Committee member for
SCTA/BNI
Here is my resume: 70 years old, been involved with motorcycles for the past 55 years. BNI Member for 27 years,raced dirt track, MX, Roiad Raced solo's and sidecars in the U.S. and Europe, AMA Charter Member, AMA sidecar coordinator in the 1970's, wrote the first BNI sidecar rules (the rules have since been bastardized without my help)
rewrote the AMA sidecar rules for 2006 (allow passengers) AMA Hall of Fame selection committee member.
build all my own stuff (frames enc.) strong supporter of the all M/C BUB event......Independently wealthy (Harley Davison, S&S, Joe Rocker Leathers....stock) Good looking, SOMEWHAT even temperament
......I will be expecting a call from M/C Rules Chairman... my phone number is on file at SCTA/BNI.
P.S. Oh, yes I have never heard of Jack Dolan
Are you an SCTA member also or just BNI?
-
And - how does this resume to get to the proper person at the SCTA-BNI?
Posting a resume on an obscure message board is like looking for love at eharmony.com.
DW
-
Posting a resume on an obscure message board is like looking for love at eharmony.com.
DW[/quote]
Dan we love you no matter how bad it went on E harmony!!! :lol: :lol:
-
And - how does this resume to get to the proper person at the SCTA-BNI?
Posting a resume on an obscure message board is like looking for love at eharmony.com.
DW
If they don't read it themselves because they can't, it will be read to them.
It seems the more coverage you get the better the chance for a good result. :wink:
-
I signed up for E-Harmony and after they took my money, they said the person I was most compatable with was a Jackie Dolan of the San Diego area. My life has gotten more miserable since.................
-
Jackie Dolan is my 35 year old single daughter that has been going to the races since before she popped out and is wise to the deal.
If you want to know why she sat on Cagle's blind side with no arm , Glen will bring you up to speed.
Her BF is a Racing Magazine editor and both her kids race cars.
Do you still want to step up ? :wink:
-
What kind of dowry can I expect? It better be damn good if you are part of the package( My apologies to the "real" Jackie Dolan)! :wink:
-
I must apologize for not giving this plausable scenario.
Maybe the bikes were legal going thru tech inspection. The inspectors did their job, and the bikes were fine. The entrants COULD have changed those components after they were thru with tech inspection.
IF that would be the case, and those items are a performance advantage then they could call them cheating?
Just throwing that out there.
Jon
-
And scott is right those points could be a club championship.
Lets look at last years points for the clubs
1 Gear Grinders 3333
2 SDRC 3234
3 LSR 3188
4 Milers 3131
Bike Number #1 in pictures earned 165 points
Bike Number #2 in pictures earned 80 points
I cant factor in Bike #3 because of no number.
Both Bike #1 and #2 are gear grinders
Total points 245 between them means that a club could have won the championship from a current 4th position to first position. Tell me club points are precious little gems... Wow two runs can make or break up to 4 places in winning the championship...
Jon
-
On the thread about the car that ran in the wrong class a couple of posts said that it is'nt the tech inspectors job to determine the classification or legality of a bike. It is up to the competitor to make sure his bike or car is legal. The inspectors are there to ensure the compliance with the safety rules. So if these bikes are illegal and gaining points for the club championship who's job is it to determine the legality or otherwise of these bikes. And if these bikes are illegal as supposed will the points be deducted from the Gear Grinders?
-
Let me tell you , I have caught a fair share of bikes with classing problems and most of them at tech.
It was always my belief the inspection was also to assist the entrant to be legal now so that it presented
far fewer problems later in the event.
I always figured the organizers owed it to the entrant to do a complete job for them and let them know
that others would be watching them.
Simple rules and other simple communications generated very few mistakes and almost no cheating.
I was the one that suggested the class be clearly marked on the number plate so it would be an easy
visual reference for any and everybody to see.
Fair and equal treatment saves a lot of trying to be tough.
Preparation of the entry to be legal is every bit as important as any performance thing you do.
The Duke had a saying about tough, can you remember it ?
-
I guess the better question will be, can an entrant be deemed illegal without a protest? Even with photography to show that it is illegal can the organization determine that on their own and take action? Or DO YOU HAVE to have a protest form?
I believe the Noonan deal came about from a picture also.. Im not sure if there was an official protest and money changed hands, or if the organization just took action?
And were the bikes presented to the tech area that way or were they changed after being thru tech.
The official tech card shows that it is sapposed to be checked. And if there is a check in that slot well, I dont know.... DO they use the checklist like at Bonneville at El Mirage?
Jon
-
There is a joke around Bonneville about an entrant
that thrashed for the whole time as a gasser and on the last pass they put a big load in it to go real
fast and just went home with a first place trophy for the class that would never stand up to an inspection.
If you are caught in the wrong, that is stupid,your innocent look is even worse.
-
That would be real cumbersome at El Mirage where almost every entry is counted for club points, which I surmise is not the case at ECTA.
-
The method that Scott mentions might work for them bur won't work for El Mirage.
Does anybody want to verify the total legality of 100+ entries on a Sunday after noon?
Do a proper inspection up front with the entrant following along at every detail.
It is kinda of a "Trust but verify" type of deal. If the entrant is confident in the inspection soon you will find them anxious to show you everything that is a product of all their hard work.
The same treatment for everybody will keep the cheaters at bay and both sides know the rules are simple and clear enough that everybody is watching with the same information.
As for local policy and Club representation, the meets at El Mirage have a system that works for them at El Mirage and is now better that something else that might work at Maxton.
Bonneville tries to run under the same rules but is touted as a "World Class" event and the entrants deserve a little different treatment.
Look how lucky everybody was with the handling of the GT deal. Sure he got busted for problems at El Mirage, the good part you are wondering about is the mistakes are far less likely to happen again.
As much as some don't like it, this communication network worked very well to identify the problem and educate a lot of people on how to avoid it in the future.
The "Screw him he lives in Colorado", plan won't fly any longer or farther that your broken foot.
Hey wait!! Isn't he a ROD RIDER anyway ? SCREW HIM !!! :wink:
-
Now that we seemingly established a value, we have to sell it and make some real money. :wink:
-
Now that we seemingly established a value, we have to sell it and make some real money. :wink:
Shoot, I was hoping it would stay an amateur site...
-
Jack, I have seen both sides of the inspection/class verification, as I thought I had legally changed from the classic class to the class I used to run in. I mentioned this to the inspectors, who did not disagree with me. Only after I mentioned the class change on this site, did Dan make me aware of my misinterpretation (damn faulty glasses!) of the rules. I have to agree, however, the rule book does clearly state (new glasses on) that it is up to the entrant to determine what class he runs in. We do not need anything more to slow down the inspection process, unless you put a beer stand in the line.....................
-
LSR is one of the most difficult things to inspect, not only for safety but class legal also.
Many series have "COOKIE CUTTER" entries and the big deal is where you get to set up your sales operation and proper sticker placement.
At Bonneville you are likely to have more classes entered than days in the year.
The log book can go a long ways towards some solution but knowing the rules for your class better than anybody is the first thing you ought to do.
If you get it wrong, it doesn't matter how fast you are.
As you might expect, that goes for the people that are expected to bless your entry also.
A mistake should be treated as part of a lesson and a lie should teach also.
The more it is exposed, the less chance there is for either to repeat.
This forum has been much more responsible than many and is getting better.
Geez, i did that whole thing without a spello.
I gotta fix it.
-
There should be a space between Jack and D. Just trying to be helpfull, as always.............................
-
There should be a space between Jack and D. Just trying to be helpfull, as always.............................
If I did a space in the middle, can you imagine what and who I would have to deal with ?
I would be forced to display my dark side. :wink:
-
Please, no Mooning on this site, as per Amo's rules and regulation Order #65-B.
-
Lets keep "on Topic"
Jon
-
None of my business since I won't enter, but in my opinion it would be extremely helpful to expand the duties of the techie from merely pass/fail ("this won't work, fix it") to include warnings ("I don't think this is legal for the class marked - I can't discuss it with you, but you might want to analyze it yourself before running").
Is there such as thing in civil law is a protest and disqualification without an objectant?
Yes, it's called "sua sponte", where the Court makes it own objection.
ALL other objections require a protest from the injured party - but they also require proof from the petitioner (racer) that the potential objectants have been given formal notice of his intent, and that their silence is failure to object and can be construed as consent. Since no such obligation is imposed on racers now (to furnish all other class entrants, including the current record holder) with their entire construction details with pictures how else can this be done?
The concept of an illegal act being accepted (run not legal for class making a record) because the opponents don't know about it, and the sanctioning body won't do it themselves is, again, my opinion, unfair and unsportsmanlike.
There is a basic principle of law that we inherited from the Roman republic: "one may not profit from one's own bad conduct".
-
It was that way in the bike program prior to the rise of Dail Martim.
The people responsible for tech on bikes felt it was their responsibility to the entrant to have the same understanding of all the features of the vehicle.
Ask a record holder from prior to the current administration and see what they have to say.
"Was it a design that fail;ed or did it fail by design ?"
-
JackD - In regards to your "Duke" question about being tough. I think it goes like this... " life is tough but it is tougher when your stupid"
-
JackD - In regards to your "Duke" question about being tough. I think it goes like this... " life is tough but it is tougher when your stupid"
This whole thing does not have to be so tough.
Make it easier to understand, don't fix it if it ain't broke, and the speed/credibility will reward the participant with plenty of fun. :wink:
-
Whats even funnier, is the first two bikes shown at the beginning of this thread are still allowed and did run last meet with same configuration???
Jon
-
Whats even funnier, is the first two bikes shown at the beginning of this thread are still allowed and did run last meet with same configuration???
Jon
Funny as in ODD, with Stupid really near by. :wink:
-
Whats even funnier, is the first two bikes shown at the beginning of this thread are still allowed and did run last meet with same configuration???
Jon
One of the bikes I saw run at the last meet was again in violation...
-
I'll ask this question again. If they are illegal why are they being allowed to run? Is it ignorance on the part of the SCTA? Is it the "good buddy" system? What?
-
I dont know for sure, But if someone doesn't protest them officially then maybe they wont do anything.... But pictures on their official website show them running illegal should be enough visiual evidence to do something. I will do some emailing on the subject and find out with the Motorcycle guys.
Jon
-
OK.Ok. Dan said quit "bitching" and
get involved........I am running for M/C Rules Committee member for
SCTA/BNI
Here is my resume: 70 years old, been involved with motorcycles for the past 55 years. BNI Member for 27 years,raced dirt track, MX, Roiad Raced solo's and sidecars in the U.S. and Europe, AMA Charter Member, AMA sidecar coordinator in the 1970's, wrote the first BNI sidecar rules (the rules have since been bastardized without my help)
rewrote the AMA sidecar rules for 2006 (allow passengers) AMA Hall of Fame selection committee member.
build all my own stuff (frames enc.) strong supporter of the all M/C BUB event......Independently wealthy (Harley Davison, S&S, Joe Rocker Leathers....stock) Good looking, SOMEWHAT even temperament
......I will be expecting a call from M/C Rules Chairman... my phone number is on file at SCTA/BNI.
P.S. Oh, yes I have never heard of Jack Dolan
Heck you get my Vote :wink: !
-
KAZ
You have voted in the best way you can and I hope more in the future if we are to have one.
I hope your interest won't go unrewarded.
Jack
OBW: Do you know Ed Malkowitz from Vegas?
If You do, tell him I said he is to old to drag race and should go to Bonneville.
-
Hey Kaz......I am still waiting for that call from
SCTA/BNI.....at this rate I will have to have the Rules Committee Meetings at my new home called "assisted living"
-
Hey Kaz......I am still waiting for that call from
SCTA/BNI.....at this rate I will have to have the Rules Committee Meetings at my new home called "assisted living"
Heck I'm still tryin to get in a Club"Since Early Last Year" so I race at El Mirage :oops:! Nobody seem's to want me and My V-rod because I won't score any Point's :cry::??
-
Hey Kaz......I am still waiting for that call from
SCTA/BNI.....at this rate I will have to have the Rules Committee Meetings at my new home called "assisted living"
Bob is still young enough to be subject to the "DRAFT".
Dress warm.