Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: azgearhed on March 06, 2013, 03:02:34 PM
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We will be using some kind of data acquisition system in the near future (time to get serious I guess) What is considered to be the best system and what do I need to know before I buy?
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How much do you plan/want to spend?
How many data points do you want to capture?
Just data logging or are you looking for an entire ECU with data logging capabilities?
Do you have an ECU already and you are looking to connect it to a logger?
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Don't buy anything until you know what you want to know. Logging 8 egts, 2-10 AFRs, 3-4 temps, 2-3 pressures.... or just a couple of AFRs temps and pressures....
see post above.
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I would start with the Racepak V500 stuff for the following reasons:
1) The V500 series uses CANbus sensors. The beauty of this system is that most of the sensors are all attached serially to the same cable. So you can add additional sensors almost at will. Just plug them in and go.
2) There is usually someone from Racepak at Speedweek.
3) Lots of your fellow racers use Racepak. Which may help if you need to replace a bad transducer or need help with downloading etc.
4) The V500 is a very mature product that is installed on 1000's of drag cars.
5) The V500 uses plug in sim card so memory is vast.
6) The application software is a free download and it is very user friendly.
I know your thinking that I must own Racepak, but its actually owned by MSD.
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Some things to consider and not in any particular order:
1. Logging memory
2. Maximum logging rate and can it be user defined per channel
3. Logging modes (sequential, cyclic or both)
4. Amount of analog and digital inputs
5. Does it support your ECU or future ECU
6. Download speed
7. Can it be expanded as your needs expand without starting over
8. Technical support
9. Price
Most of your good data logger companies have support on the salt either from the factory or by authorized reps. Also there are lots of good used Pro units on the market for literately for a few pennies on the dollar. Tony
Tony
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All good points listed above.
In addition to them one other consideration is very important, the analysis software.
Granted, for land speed, 3d chassis articulation is probably not that important, but, having the ability to write math channels can be very useful.
In todays technology, I would assume that most if not all SW has pretty much the same capability.
Try downloading the different SW and sample data and try doing some analysis, like any tool, if it works for you then it is right.
John
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Thanks for all the input. I also have questions about laptop compatability ( 32 bit, 64 bit, etc). I have to run a bunch of errands this morning' but I will get back to this discussion tonight.
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Looking at the Racepak price list
The Racepak V300SD is $2,231
Thermocouple module with probe $189
Intercooler inlet temperature $169
Air/fuel ratio $359
Pressure/vacuum manifold $249
You get the idea. You have to pick price first then see what fits your budget. Spending multiple thousands of dollars is easy.
Those are list prices. Check Ebay and racingjunk.com. Look for used systems.
Having said that, you can't have too much information.
Well, maybe. You also have to look at your overall program. Having information an doing something with that information is another topic. If you don't have a big dyno budget you have to take a good look at what the information will gain you.
Rpm. Seeing where you you are shifting and how long you spend in any one gear is informative. Wheel slip will show.
Speed you can get from a logging GPS if you already have one. Or add a wheel sensor.
AFR, EGT, and oxygen sensors will help with the tuning.
Oil pressure, fuel pressure, nitrous pressure, boost pressure, manifold pressure/vacuum, pan vacuum . . .
accelerometer or G-meter. Lets you know how hard you are pulling through the gears and where the soft spots are.
Cylinder head temperature, coolant temperature, manifold inlet temperature, oil temperature . . .
Most ECU's can data log. Just be careful that the sampling rates are equal to what a true data logger will do. Missing critical information ain't fun.
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The information you've been given so far is very good. We use a Quick Data II by Edelbrock. Like most of the systems you can buy it in different versions. The basic kit has 1 MB memory while the advanced kit has 4 MB. The advanced kit comes with 8 EGT probes, 2) 0-100 psi sensors, wheel speed & shaft sensors, harness, and several other sensors and temp probes.
You can also order linier or string potentiometers and O2 kits etc.
Go to the web site and check the stuff out. As a selfless plug I'm a dealer for Edelbrock so if you have any questions you can e-mail or call.
Also look into some of the better EFI systems as many have data acquisition as part of the system, for those not running in classic.
Another thing to keep in mind, it's also good to have "service reps" for the type of system you're using at the tracks you run at in case you need help or parts. Several suppilers have people at the salt and El Mirage.
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By far the most over featured yet affordable logger on the market: AEM AQ-1 (http://www.aemelectronics.com/data-loggers-66/aq-1-data-logger-67/)
The free data analysis software that comes with it: AEMdata (http://www.aemelectronics.com/data-loggers-66/aemdata-data-analysis-software-81/)
PM me if you have questions.
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We got our data analysis at about the 3-1/2-mile, with input, once in a while by Kepner. Could be why we haven't seen Impound in years.
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We got our data analysis at about the 3-1/2-mile, with input, once in a while by Kepner. Could be why we haven't seen Impound in years.
Come on Stan, you see impound every day... seeing it is easy, taking a car through the gate a couple of times is the tough part.
I have an AEM logger, with a 4 channel EGT and 4 channel AFR, good value for the money, easy to pull and view the data with a laptop
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AEM is a good choice, John Romero is always at lakes and salt for consult. AEM is the official ECU of the White Goose Bar Team.
DW
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I'd heard the Team preferred their Breath Analyzer.
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Too many products to list. AEM is a full service company providing products and services to many facets of humankind.
DW
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I don't know your budget but you may want to look at Digatron. A few LSR competitors use their product and motorcycle #731 has a featured photo on their home website. Their product is very reasonable and can record a 20 laps on a 1/2 mile with some yellow flags thrown in........Good Luck
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I have used the cheap and simple innovate dl32 , 5 basic channels but expandable with extra specific boxes , like 4 channel egt , up to i think 32 channel
we have used it for fairly basic tps, map, O2, egt, rpm
Lately trying the AEM- AQ1, logging a lot more channels, including gps speed and a whole host of other gps related stuff i'm not using to full potential
looking more at intercooler function with pre and post map and temp sensors ,
oil pressure (this gets scary )
i like the format the innovate can present in better , but the AQ1 has so much more ability for a similar price
both log to cards or read live if connected to a laptop, (handy on the dyno)
had some issues with the card on the aq1 , think its related to the vibration on the bikes, and looking to mount the unit better
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Greg, I don't think it is vibration... took me a few incidents to figure out that you always need to do the disconnect hardware thing or it can lock up in the next session or not recognize the card. Trying to view live on Max's scooter the computer kept locking up. I had the same issue at the dyno with that computer... I now have one with a solid state drive for dyno work. Acoustic vibration was stopping the spinning hard drive.
Of course your mileage may vary...
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Could be the eject thing Stainless
i'm sure i eject it properly most times but not all,
i do hope its just my procedure causing the problem as its a great logger when working right
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I use the Innovate stuff too. EGT (X4), AFR, Boost PSI, RPM, Duty Cycle, and speed.
Inexpensive in the grand scheme, very frustrating setting up.
Now that I have gone around the learning curve a few times its a great setup; easy to use and provides real data. It found a bunch of problems for us.....
-again it was not exactly 'plug and play' and requires a fair amount of trial and error but if you are willing to take the time.....
~JH
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I'm sending the headers off for coating (burned off the last coating) and would like to weld the bungs in beforehand. Are the placement and size the same for all the various data loggers? Where can I get general info on egt and O2 placement?
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What engine management system are you running (or are you running carbs?). Most of the major EMS vendors have datalogging capabilities built into the ECU, sometimes requiring a laptop to be attached (yes I have sent laptops down the salt at roughly 250mph wrapped in foam and thoroughly duct taped to the passenger seat), or in some newer systems recording onto built in memory.
If you're not running EFI, no problem-- you wouldn't be the first guy to use an ECU for datalogging exclusively. The smart move you made though (if you ever see EFI in your future) is your datalogger will also run your complete fuel and ignition system as well, and once it's wired up to datalog engine data, the wiring for the EFI/ignition install is 70% complete, you just wire up the outputs to control fuel/spark when/if you're ready.
If by chance you've already got an EMS system that will do the job, great! AEM makes good stuff as DW mentioned and has a presence on the salt.
If you've not picked up anything yet and you like the idea of a 'datalogger with future growth/engine management potential', we'd be glad to help you get setup if you'd like. The MS3-Pro system is very affordable, weather-resistant/sealed, has 8GB of internal memory, and a LOT of I/O (inputs and outputs for datalogging and control). We've got extensions for EGT inputs as well. You can email us at websales@diyautotune.com, or call at 678-261-8789. Reference this thread if you'd like and it will let my team know where to start the discussion.
And again it's not just a datalogger, it's a heck of an EMS if/when you decide to take full control of the fuel/ignition with such a system. And as a bonus-- myself and 2-3 of my tech support team are always on the salt at SpeedWeek, and very often lend a hand when needed whether it's our system or another.
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I'm sending the headers off for coating (burned off the last coating) and would like to weld the bungs in beforehand. Are the placement and size the same for all the various data loggers? Where can I get general info on egt and O2 placement?
Tim, I replied to your email. Lots of options to consider. I wouldn't get ahead of yourself with O2/egt bungs until you decide what exactly you want to do. See my email and you'll know what I mean.
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Thanks Nathan. I feel like the smartest student in the dumbest row, but I'm getting some education. I'm just going to run without any header coating til after May and June Elmo and by then I will have a lot better idea what approach to take on all this.
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Tim, if the coating is burning off the header is it really doing you any good anyway? Or are you going to a different type of coating.
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The real expense here is adding the 5th grader to the crew to do the maintainence and data entry. Do you know how much one of those things eats?
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Not much useful to add other than a lot of ECUs factory and aftermarket can output data.
If yours can and you get a data logger that can accept that data you can save doubling up on sensors.
jon
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Jon, this is what I am finding out the earlier versions of stuff like I have doesn't like to talk to each other--I may well have to almost run 3 stand alone systems to utilize what I have. I have not made any final judgments yet but it is beginning to look like the latest versions of a couple of the above mentioned systems are beginning to try to be very flexiable in trying to tie it all together---
tune in next week for the next episode of the saga "same time, same station":
If you get my drift you are truly as old as dirt :-o and may be returning to visit your dust cousins soon---lol
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Tim, if the coating is burning off the header is it really doing you any good anyway? Or are you going to a different type of coating.
Jet Hot told me the last stuff I had was 1300'. They have a 2000' they are going to coat with this time. They even waranteed the coating I burned off so it'll be fairly cheap to get them coated (but all LSR stuff is inexpensive, right?)
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I found a used race-pak v300 here in town that a friend of a friend had on his comp car. Its got all the stuff I need at about 1/3 the cost of new. Now I just have to learn how to use it. Thanks to all for the input. :cheers:
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Super :cheers:
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On the Vesco 444 car we've been running the Edelbrock QuikData2 box for a few years now. We've got a rather complete setup, logging 30-some channels from fuel flow to wheel slip to ride height. It's a decent system for the money IMO. I've been the primary operator on it since installation. Edelbrock's tech help is superb.
Rk