Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Jonny Hotnuts on February 28, 2013, 07:22:05 PM
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I have seen many 'internet experts' say that removing the cats can lower HP on an OEM vehicle. I have also seen a lot of post where people say you will loose all of your low end torque by going too large in exhaust after the headers.
Is this true? Would this also apply to an OEM vehicle with aftermarket SC?
-I am asking because I have a vehicle that sees some track use, is supercharged (aftermarket) and 2 SETS of cats (4 total) from the factory.
-The ECU is locked and no way of AFR tuning, the ECU is reprogrammed to accommodate the SC.
-My cats are shot and need to be replaced or punched. <NOTE* an aftermarket O2 load device is made that allows removal of the cats for off road use.
What is the best option??? Blow the cats out and run the O2 sims? Get 'high flow' cats (always thought they were snake oil)? I dont want to hear any 'federal smog blah', I know.
~JH
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JH, do you mind if I tag along and ask another "Please explain this" question? Tell me to scram and start my own if you want to do so, but my query is sorta like yours, having to do with the exhaust system.
Oh, forgive my ignorance, one and all -- but why am I told that removing the muffler or such from my Duramax turbo diesel engine will affect performance/economy adversely? I'm told that the turbo needs (repeat NEEDS) some back pressure to work right. Why is that? Thanks. I removed the muffler from my '04 Duramax with no ill effects - and got good mileage with it, too. Is this another federal smog/county noise rule, too?
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Ask away SSS!
Truth be known I have seen so much contradictory info about exhaust, back pressures and so I dont know whats real and whats BS.
-For some reason I have a feeling that some people on this forum will have an opinion on the mater.
~JH
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Slim, there is a duramax diesel web site with tons of info.
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So here is my take on current Race Motor Technowledgy (sp.?), and hopefully Dyno, Paul or someone else who "actually" works with a Dyno... ( not another Theorist for Christ's sake) will chime in.
It has to do with the same reason that Today's OEM motors have rather small exhaust ports.
Exhaust backpressure causes resonating pulses which helps draw the exhaust gasses out of the cylinder while at the same time helping draw the intake fuel charge into the cylinder and which helps create a more efficient (and thus) powerfull engine.
It completly goes against what we all did with our 1970's Small block Chevy's when we all hogged them out to match the header flanges.
Reher Morrison advises that your Headers be larger than the exhaust ports to help this reversion, and some Brodix Heads come with a D shaped Port for the same reason.
Bob (Who really doesn't know shit.............)
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IN response to Bob: But I've got a turbo, and that little (?) hair dryer would seem to dampen any pulses moving from cylinder to exhaust pipe - - wouldn't it?
And for you, Glen -- I expect that I could dig and find the answer to my question, but part of it is posed in my response here to Bob -- that I've heard this story about all turbo-ed motors.
I'm very happy with the Duramax -- you've had one, Glen, and know that it's a pretty good engine. I don't know if digging into the Duramax forum would yield results as fast as I expect to find 'em here.
Thanks again, gentlemen.
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This is an semi educated, semi informed guess about NA engs :-D
SORRY JH but it does have to do with emmisons to meet them the manufactures must absolutely have repeatability: the cyl charge must be repeatable and exactly the same every time for that load and rpm so the timming and fuel can be controled to achieve the desired results.
also semi educated, semi informed :-o
With Turbos you do not want hardly any reversion if you want power under heavy boost because high exhaust pressure means the exhaust pours back into the cyl if the exhaust gas pressure is higher than the boost press--that is the reason some run as high LSA as 120+ degs in some applications---especially at the drag strip where they are running real small turbines trying to get them to spool up FAST!
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I agree with both of you and if you notice a typical Blown Drag Race Motor, the exhaust ports and Headers are Huge.
On the other hand, the Stock class racers use Step Headers with various length collectors, and the Pro Stock motors use a four to two merge with a "choke" reducing taper which then immediatly reverses itself to a larger collecter. This is probably the most acurate definition of "reversion/pulse flow exhaust management.
Obviously there are many other factors involved, such as ignition timing, camshaft duration and overlap, etc.
What you have to remember is that in most engines, not 100% of the fuel charge gets burnt up in the combustion cylinder and actually burns in the exhaust.
That is why you can reveiw data from a previous pass and see EGT temps that exceed the melting point of your aluminum pistons, yet a leak down test and reading the spark plugs show no sign of melting the piston crowns.
Bob (and I still don't know shit.........)
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If your ECU is reprogrammed for the supercharger, it must have done something to the AFR's so why is it "locked" and you cant mess with it further. Get a Mega squirt. :-)
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The first thing street cars have to do is light the cat fast, from cold start. Put them close to the ports and use the thinnest stainless headers you can (so you dont lose calories on your way to lighting the cat).
Second thing you need is the smallest cat you can get away with, because it must stay lit at no load and lots of idling in traffic. Big cats cost big money and wont stay lit.
Forget the exhaust tuning (the old methods) because you need to close the exhaust valve too early to fully scavenge. That will save a nice chunk of money in egr engineering....some engines can run without external egr with this method.
Keep the exhaust port size down, because you are going to run this thing right on 14.7:1 as much as possible. If you get the compression up, the mix perfect, and the burn late enough but still fast...there wont be much exhaust to get out, most of the time. In fact, you'll be building the pressure so perfectly timed that you will need insulators in the lower waterjacket area to keep the last of the expansion from the combustion event...this is getting common for bigger engines. Remember, make the power at lower rpm and the exhaust volume shrinks plenty quick.
Now take the throttle away from the driver. He can offer his opinion with the right foot, the ecu will take it under advisement, and decide how much and when he gets actual throttle opening. You can see this for yourself. Connect a CARB OBD II scantool using the non-oem datalist, graph the throttle angle sensor, rpm, and throttle position sensor. Go for a drive, come back laughing.
Ok...so now that little cat is almost staying alive. Better take gearshifts away from the driver. That way the ecu can decide how much exhaust actually goes through that smaller, cost efficient cat. Slow down the engine, most of the time, and the warranty costs goes down with it.
In a most difficult case, like...say... Big engine pulling hard? Discontinue the manual trans option. This is really important if you think the driver may use downshifting decel often. Everytime he blips the throttle and grabs a downshift, the air fuel ratio passes through 15:1 on the way to fuel cut. 15:1 is the fastest heat build a/f for the cat. Do this very much and the cat is burn-out and warranty cost go up. Just to break him of that bad habit...since you have control of the throttle and he dont....hang the rpm up a ways when he does that part throttle "blip downshift". It feeds some cooling to the cat...decided by the ecu...and gets the driver out of that driving mode because it dont feel right.
The bigger and more poweful the engine, the more gears you need in that automatic transmission, to deal with that carefully sized cat. And now you know why big M-B and Lexus, etc need 8 speed automatics.
Turbos are real touchy, because if you let the turbo get cold, you have a hard time relighting the cat. When I worked on the Turbo Highlander Hybrid project, that is what killed us in the end. By running the turbo off only the forward three cylinder (1-2-3-4-5-6 firing order), we could easily spool the turbo and almost keep the subcat lit on a downgrade. Almost. Remember, hyrbrids STOP the engine on decel and that turbo is cooling off. 3-4 seconds for a relite (on a op temp engine) does not fly with CARB or EPA. That was a bummer, because the combination of rapid spool and instant elec motor torque was pretty fun and real eye opening. We spent some time with Borg-Warner talking after cat turbos, but nobody was going to buy off on this program and it was "done in one".
This is where my experience ends. I dont know the method that make the new turbo cars compliant. We get old, put out to pasture, and shuffle to the barn. I think you can see why removing cats can take down driveability...the ecu looks AFTER the cats, as well as before, and will do its best to stay compliant while protecting the wide band a/f sensors from water droplet cracking from too rich mixtures.
This whole thing is a LOT more than reflash, headers, etc. Entire design is tied to that stock cat.
Sorry I rambled on...its the same story I had to tell my friends at C&D when they dropped by the shop to ask me how they ruined the cat on a pre-release Miata playing on Angeles Crest all day. Its a brave new world, aint it? Tom McCahill is turning over in his grave. :cry:
Regards, JimL
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Jim, thanx for chimeing in. Even if I don't fully understand your explaination, it's great that someone with practical experience helps those of without a clue to at least learn the basics of how a cat works on todays engines.
Hell, I am still trying to lean out my carberator on my 72 Maverick so the exhaust tips don't look like I am burning coal...................
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Bob...I know how to fix that!
Run leaded gas....thatll fix it. :cheers: no more sooty looking exhaust.
Thats the truth, by the way. I was a tech in Colorado when unleaded came around. Folks there were dialed in to that high altitude tuning need, and they were accusing me of tuning their cars wrong because the end of the tailpipe turned black.
Some people just would not believe it was the gasoline.
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Tom McCahill is turning over in his grave. :cry:
But he sure was entertaining to read while he was still around! :-D :-D :-D
Let the younger guys figure that one out!
Pete
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JH...I better mention...I dont know what your car is, but if its a factory supported SC kit with reflash there may be some big compromises made in the flash. For example, I have seen manual trans kits programmed to kill variable valve timing with a supercharger. By running at fixed position, the pumping capacity of the engine is reduced (no intake valve timing advance in mid-range) and the customer sees what look like nice numbers on the boost gauge. The intake valves are opened late so that boost doesnt actually get to the cylinders and thence the cats. You can make nice looking boost gauge readings when the valves dont open, with a smaller pump.
Another trick is to use code lines in the warmup tables that will start mathematically ramping the temp sensor reading at about 145-150 degrees. The formula unwinds the add-on as the temp gets up toward 200-210, so that engine protection logic still works. This method takes the engine quickly through the remaining enrichment range, after cold start, because the blower has the potential to make a lot more hot exhaust during that transition. The other reason, is that the head and bore temps jump faster than normal, against the coolant temp, during that transiion (with a blower). I was pretty proud of that solution...wrote it by my own self. 8-). Dont get excited...I only wrote small routines, I wasnt allowed access to the adder and timing tables. If we ever get together live, I can tell you a fun story how that programming is done. First, you start with boxes and boxes of brand new spare catalytic convertors, and an engine dyno, and a dumpster.....and then....
Depending on who wrote the code, there may be double-tap on the spark! Sometimes this helps prevent false misfire detection, sometimes it causes misfire. I know an ex-Ford programmer who was fond of this, and we went around the ring a few times on one of the projects I was involved with. He put it in our flash, without asking, and when the misfire popped up I said "what did you change?". So we get it out, engines running good....about a week later its misfiring again. He had put it back in, without asking!
One very big problem with SC kits is calibrating for lower throttle opening. Normally, beyond a certain position of the throttle the ecu will go to "openloop-drive" or straight "openloop." With a blower, you can climb that long grade at pretty high horsepower, with the throttle back in closed loop position. This means the engine is forced to make a lot of power at 14.7:1 air fuel ratio. In open loop it would be allowed clear down to 10:1 if needed! Guess what happens to the cat at 14.7:1 a/f making equivalent power of an unblown engine at 10-12:1 a/f ratio? Remember..15:1 is the worst point for cat, and it gets cooler in both directions (rich or lean) like a a piramid shape. Edit....meant to say the graph line looks like a pyramid.
Now you know why the cats are gone....and why there is no permanent fix for this setup.
This is just so complicated. We used to say, "the problem with these modified cars, is that they are suffering from improvement."
Gotta stop now...this is turning into a bad flashback, and I am RETIRED!
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Tom McCahill is turning over in his grave. :cry:
Let the younger guys figure that one out!
Pete
OK I googled....., quite the boy old McCahill !
http://www.joesherlock.com/Tom-McCahill.html
Interestingly; given the other thread about Crosleys as Comp Coupes....
(http://www.joesherlock.com/12-05-McCah2.gif)
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Thanks for great posts JimL :)
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OK I googled....., quite the boy old McCahill !
http://www.joesherlock.com/Tom-McCahill.html
Thanks for the link. It brought back a lot of good memories. It was always tough waiting for the latest issue of Mechanix Illustrated and Uncle Tom's content was always the first place I headed.
Pete
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JH,
Complex subject and I am by no means an EFI/ECU expert. I'm still a slow & crappy typist so I added comments to your post. Sorry. . .
I am only responding to questions where I am certain of the answer/effect. It looks to me like JimL has more insight & experience with road going stuff equipted with Cats. And he is right on about mfg's counting pennies on cats & warranties. Have you checked the price of platinum lately?
I have seen many 'internet experts' say that removing the cats can lower HP on an OEM vehicle. I have also seen a lot of post where people say you will loose all of your low end torque by going too large in exhaust after the headers. On any engine, it is the complete exhaust system that the engine "sees". Larger pipe diameters, with their larger volume, will slow gas speeds and alter the timing of any exhaust pulses/reflected waves. Diameter is not the only factor, pipe length affects pulse/wave timing as well. If the result is different from what the ECU/sensors expect, this will be a problem. Many ECU's are mapped/programmed with certain values/parameters, and when the sensor values are out of a specific range, the ECU goes: Oh Crap!! better shut it down to save (warranty) costs. . . . . Sometimes there are ways around this, sometimes not.
Is this true? Would this also apply to an OEM vehicle with aftermarket SC?
-I am asking because I have a vehicle that sees some track use, is supercharged (aftermarket) and 2 SETS of cats (4 total) from the factory.
-The ECU is locked and no way of AFR tuning, the ECU is reprogrammed to accommodate the SC.
-My cats are shot and need to be replaced or punched. <NOTE* an aftermarket O2 load device is made that allows removal of the cats for off road use.
What is the best option??? Blow the cats out and run the O2 sims? Get 'high flow' cats (always thought they were snake oil)? I dont want to hear any 'federal smog blah', I know.
~JH
Hope this limited answer was of some value to you.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Slim,
I'm going to repeat most of my comments to JH above.
Complex subject and I am by no means an EFI/ECU expert. I'm still a slow & crappy typist so I added comments to your post. Sorry. . .
I am only responding to questions where I am certain of the answer/effect. It looks to me like JimL has more insight & experience with road going stuff equipted with Cats. And he is right on about mfg's counting pennies on cats & warranties. Have you checked the price of platinum lately?
JH, do you mind if I tag along and ask another "Please explain this" question? Tell me to scram and start my own if you want to do so, but my query is sorta like yours, having to do with the exhaust system.
Oh, forgive my ignorance, one and all -- but why am I told that removing the muffler or such from my Duramax turbo diesel engine will affect performance/economy adversely? I'm told that the turbo needs (repeat NEEDS) some back pressure to work right. Why is that? Thanks. It's all about how the ECU is programmed. If the result is different from what the ECU/sensors expect, this will be a problem. Many ECU's are mapped/programmed with certain values/parameters, and when the sensor values are out of a specific range, the ECU goes: Oh Crap!! better shut it down to save (warranty) costs. . . . . Sometimes there are ways around this, sometimes not. I removed the muffler from my '04 Duramax with no ill effects - and got good mileage with it, too. Is this another federal smog/county noise rule, too? Probably. Smog regs for diesels have been changing rapidly since 2000.
Hope this limited answer was of some value to you.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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The vehicle in question is a 5.7 Toyota Tundra with the 'Toyota TRD Supercharger' <(Magnuson e90 screw and intercooled). There is no question if it makes HP, the truck has run 11's in the 1/4 and has a 0-60 time that will embarrass most high performance sports cars.
The ECU has a Toyota reflash using their techstream. This system is so integrated with engine (fly by wire), transmission, brake and a billion other elements that if you disconnect or modify anything in the chain it throws code and tells you that you are a jerk.
-Toyota is so clever about this stuff they have safeguards in the programming that KNOWS if you TRY to 'put a resistor' or some other work around in the system to fool the ECU. It also has work arounds so if you put a better intake on it thinking you will make more HP, the ecu compensates to 'fix the improvement'. <it really is quite amazing how careful Toyota was about keeping people out.
This being said, the PROBLEM is that it runs pig rich with no way of tuning to lower the afr. A number of people with the SC melt cats ESPECIALLY if they get some bad gas; I would not doubt this in my case also as I use 'cardlock PacPride' commercial fueling premium. This same gas made a thick layer of tar on the backside of my Busas valves.
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Some options I have:
-Punch all 4 cats and use the simulator
http://urdusa.com/Electronics-Rear-Sensor-Simulator/c66_170/p1260518903/URD-Rear-O2-Simulator,-3UR-FE-5.7L-V8-Dual-Channel/product_info.html
-Remove the front set of cats and keep the back (*I suspect its the front cats that are shot) and use the SIM
-Replace the shot cats with some Summit 'high flow' units.
I dont hate the idea of having cats if they are not going to melt on me again.....and.....I dont know if anyone has priced NEW cats from TOYOTA lately!!!!!! I can assure you it aint pretty!!!!!
Thanks for helping me understand and dealing with this problem.
~JH
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Lucky for me, the 5.7 kit was after my time and that keeps me from giving you bad advice. The first "cat simulator" I messed with was one I helped work up for a batch of "un-named vehicle model" that had to be fitted with blowers, while running on "un-named gasoline" in a sandy part of the world so the "un-named branch of military" dependants could be driven in town without drawing attention. Blowers help haul the weight of lots of kevlar and thick lexan.
The method works, obviously, though I layed awake nights hoping my jury rig did not leave someone broke down in a really bad neighborhood. Ancient history now and truly thankful the phone never rang.
JH, your stuff is a generation beyond where I ever got to. :|
Jim
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JH, do you mind if I tag along and ask another "Please explain this" question? Tell me to scram and start my own if you want to do so, but my query is sorta like yours, having to do with the exhaust system.
Oh, forgive my ignorance, one and all -- but why am I told that removing the muffler or such from my Duramax turbo diesel engine will affect performance/economy adversely? I'm told that the turbo needs (repeat NEEDS) some back pressure to work right. Why is that? Thanks. I removed the muffler from my '04 Duramax with no ill effects - and got good mileage with it, too. Is this another federal smog/county noise rule, too?
Both performance and economy, the latter depending on operator habits more than anything, should improve with less pressure downstream of the turbine.
Here's why:
Any post-turbine back pressure is multiplied by the turbine expansion ratio and is added to the pre-turbine drive pressure used to power the compressor wheel.
Less post-turbine back pressure means faster spool, means less fuel is required to be burned to put heat into the exhaust stream to light the turbo. Spooling sooner also provides more torque earlier and results in less power expended over the duration of the acceleration event.
Should also reduce EGT and produce emissions.
Less backpressure, resulting in lower drive pressure will improve VE as well. Providing a more favorable Boost:Drive ratio, allowing for better cylinder filling and evacuation, as well as more valve overlap.
As far as that "needs backpressure" myth pertaining to NA motors as well, its false there too for the most part.
What you need is charge face velocity and pulses timed in a manner that the leading pulse has a trailing low-pressure zone and you want to use that lower pressure zone to draw the next pulse in sequence out.
This is usually tuned to be RPM specific, harmonics also come into play. This is where debates on intake runner length usually wind up as well. Somewhere around .5-.6 mach (which is temperature dependent) is thrown around as the sweet spot for charge face velocity, before turbulence/choke becomes an issue.
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(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/549250_10200384256305043_1195266217_n.jpg)
would you believe this is what was all that was left of the front left cat!!!!
Missing about 80% of its original mass, I just needed to turn it on end and dump it out, no need to break up the material to get it out.
Also note how all the edges are rounded....this is because the chunks were rattling around for a LONG time and now look like driftwood!
The cat down stream was nearly 100% clogged with the remanance from the front cat.
-needless to say its running better, just from doing the left bank (so far) and while sitting on a ECU code because my AFR is not reading correctly.
I would of NEVER expected to see the inside of a cat to look like this; its been a real learning experience.
~JH
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Ok JH. What you see is the result of cat temps that exceeded melt point for the slurry bond which is lining the shell. That means internal cat temp was well over 1850-2000 F for some period of time. I dont know if this is alumina-silicate bond, but it looks like it. Anyway, cat temps this high need some late burn from the cylinders, along with enough oxygen to hover around that 15:1 a/f for some time.
Gasoline problems can cause the knock sensor signal to pull timing pretty far back (I used to have printout from a supercharged 3.4 v6 that showed short periods of 50 degrees atdc!). On occasion, I would pull fuel samples from a customer complaint vehicle and then have them tested by a Federal Referee Station. Those are the folks who test and certify the really important fuels, like aviation stuff. I have seen Contaminated gasoline with 90% distillation temps approaching 400 f. I think diesel is about 440 f at 90%. This leads to high knk signal, which retards timing and throws fuel at it, along with a very long burn event at higher rpm. To put this in perspective, I run the ERC with lowest 90% distillation temp at Bonneville because I rev high, have over 14.5:1 compression, and dont like too much advance (which can push back against the crank and take away power).
A warning about knock sensing (knk). In my day, knock detection was rpm limited to the processing speed of the ecu. For example, a 4-cylinder could perform knock detection all the way to around 7000 rpm depending on bore size. The larger the bore, the slower the ringing which pushed knk high. We had three different frequency knock sensors just for our different fours, and the wrong one installed would turn on the check engine light. Heres the deal. Six cylinder even fire dropped knk detection at about 6200, and smaller v8 down as low as 4800 rpm. High rpm detonation is not a prohibited event (well..at least in my day). Now, back to gasoline.
When the vaporization is incomplete in the cylinder, some cylinders will be misfiring. At that moment it doesnt matter how rich your a/f ratio is...there is extra oxygen pumped to the cats along with extra fuel. At the substrate face you can quickly get a strong volume of around 15:1 a/f to heat the shell beyond the bond failure temp.
This entire ugly event can occur in less than an hour drive time after a bad fill-up. Nothing kills a cat like misfire and available fuel. The problem with heavy fuel misfire, is that it occurs at pretty high in the rev range, typically outside the misfire detection capability of the processors, so you dont see a blinking check engine light. Misfire detection is the only "check engine light warning" that blinks at the driver, because steady misfire is so damaging to the cat.
That heavy fuel issue is double nasty, because it makes your plug readings look lean, but puts so much heat in the bottom of the bores (where the piston speed is slow), that the piston starts leaving aluminum on the bore at the beginning of the exhaust stroke. "If the aluminum is low, the burn is slow.". Thats how you read seized pistons. Nothing seizes pistons better than late, long burn time.
Your ceramic honeycomb is pretty finely eroded, which is probably good news. When the bits are small, and make it to the subcat, they dont as often get sucked back into the cylinders on high rpm decel.
Sorry there is no way for me to offer good advice. I just dont have the know-how to make a good judgement. All I can go on, is my experience, and I have seen cats like yours in almost new cars, AFTER the customer recently filled up...and sometimes in an unfamiliar area from a generic gas station they had never visited before. Often, there would be a "hot floor" complaint, or "sticky stuff leaking under my car" complaint (melting coatings).
My " personal best technical inspection" had 194 mile on the car! It got fixed under warranty, but we had a nice interview and friendly discussion about using caution when the attendant asks if you want it in a can. The customer did think it was odd that they had to use a funnel to put it in his tank!
Time to stop, a'fore I get kicked off the bus. All that news, and no solid conclusion, but maybe itll give you some idea for your choice.
JimL
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JH. ...sorry, I didnt explain that quite right in the second paragraph. When the ecu pulls back timing, due to knock, the extra fuel is not that big a jump. It is just trying to stop the knock, while getting off of 14.7:1 long enough to cool the exhaust. Therefore, as long as the gasoline is good it does NOT create an extreme long burn. It is always safer for the cat to head a little rich ratio, rather than cross 15:1 on the way to lean cooling side.
Running a little rich, during that event, keeps the cat from high oxygen that is needed to make heat. That is a thin line, because oxygen storage capacity of the cats must be adequate to handle quick throttle application and the attendant added exhaust gases.
Also, the catalyst bonding is somewhat susceptible to shock cracking both from steel shell distortion and from exhaust pulse hammering. Remember....if the exhaust sounds sharp and loud, that is rich. Softer and mellower is the lean side. Thats why your exhaust gets quieter right before you seize down there in the third mile!
Just in case you never noticed.... :-o
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JimL
I cant thank you enough for taking the time to answer these questions.
-Clearly proving that people from Oregon are smarter, more helpful and more handsome then other people anywhere in the world!!!
LOL
Thanks again!
~JH
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And I, the hijacker, also send thanks. I not only learned a whole bunch from the responses to Chris' question, but quite a bit about mine query. I both read the stuff that was kindly provided here -- and found the time to go traipsing through internet-land to dig up some more. Result: No, backpressure is not GOOD for much of anything real save perhaps emissions and stuff -- but for sure not much for performance (even in the world of street-only vehicles. Thanks.
And anyway, who doesn't agree that open pipes sound a lot stronger than muffled ones? :-D :-D
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Stainless, remember: LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES!
Hot Nuts: I spent my first 36 years in Oregon, and can almost see it from my roof so I will only ask to be described as "good looking" (or at least better than Stainless).
:roll: Bob :cheers:
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Stainless, remember: LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES!
Hot Nuts: I spent my first 36 years in Oregon, and can almost see it from my roof so I will only ask to be described as "good looking" (or at least better than Stainless).
:roll: Bob :cheers:
Come down from the roof Bob, all is forgiven............
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LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES!
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/parade1_zps65ad4840.jpg)
Indeed they do.
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One Run Bob,
You might want to stay off your roof. Is that not how you almost killed yourself? Maybe you are just too old to remember :evil: :evil: