Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Steering - Suspension - Rear End => Topic started by: runt13 on January 17, 2013, 04:57:32 PM
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hey folks, how is everyone?
well the 2013, improvements have started
last season we put ceramic bearings in the wheels front and rear on the p/pp-1350-4 buell. we were / are very pleased with them and have decided to run them in the trans.
so we called up dave from worldwide bearings and they are on there way. should recieve them tomarrow. [spec. note, dave is a real nice guy that supports all of motorsports, was a pleasure to talk to and all around nice guy.] i recomend him to all!
so i took the day off tomarrow to yank out the trans, get it over to andy simon for backcutting, and get it back togather by next weekend. and get some dyno runs just to see!
does anyone who runs a sportster / buell run these bearings. just looking for real world feedback.
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I'd like to know if you have dyno numbers of the same setup before you changed the bearing.
It would be good info on how much they help.
Do you run this bike SCTA or Bub? What speeds have you seen?
Rouse
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Somewhere on this site is an extensive commentary on ceramic bearings. I am sure someone will post up the link.
DW
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Rouse, it looks like he has all his passes in his sig.... :evil:
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Rouse, it looks like he has all his passes in his sig.... :evil:
I know - I Know !! That's not the first time I've been caught not reading the fine print :|
At least this time it didn't cost much :-D
I'd still like to know if the new bearing make a recordable difference on the dyno.
Rouse
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I can't tell you the difference on the dyno. I didn't make real agressive dyno runs after changing. The lower rpm runs we did make were impressive. They made a difference for me on the track. i guess that's where it really counts... :cheers:
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The general rule of thumb is ceramic bearings have about 10% of the rolling resistance of steel bearings.
Spin down times for ceramic and stainless steel bearings.
(http://machinedesign.com/sites/machinedesign.com/files/images/spinning-down.preview.jpg)
Full article
http://machinedesign.com/article/ceramic-bearings-save-energy-extend-life-1005 (http://machinedesign.com/article/ceramic-bearings-save-energy-extend-life-1005)
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The spin test results are interesting to say the least. I wonder why the hybrid bearing didn't do better in the test.
Most ceramic bearings that I have seen for racing wheel bearings are the hybrid type with steel races and ceramic balls.
The question that comes to mind that I'd like to know is, how does the radial strength of full ceramic bearing compare to the hybrid?
Rouse
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Are those spin down test with or without sealed bearings? It seems to me that any decrease in resistance due to the material of the balls is offset by the drag of the seals. Of course transmissions don't need sealed bearings, but wheels do.
Thanks for posting this.
Don
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I used to trim the lip off the seal. Turned out all it did was hold salt. :cry:Now i dont run seals at all.
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I used to trim the lip off the seal. Turned out all it did was hold salt. :cry:Now i dont run seals at all.
Sealed bearings with a separate seal?
That's what Dave and I are planning on running.
Thanks
jon
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have dyno runs with and without the wheel bearings at the shop, will do the same when the trans goes back in.
will post results
did feel the difference pushing the bike in the staging lanes!
ECTA is what i will call my home track, will make it to main in 2014
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Aside from the ceramic-vs-steel bearing discussion: I don't see how spin-down results can be meaningfully extrapolated to performance under load. Contact stresses and deformation is a very complex field of engineering- I've only dabbled in it enough to cause me to doubt the usefulness of a zero-load (spin-down) result. Comments?
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While all the selling points about "micro welding" and "ball deformation" is fact, be careful to watch for failure signs.
No, not the completely burnt have to remove bearing from shaft with #10 tool.
This happened to me on a couple applications where a steel bearing lived for hours, the hybrid lasted minutes.
The steel balls will flatten or deform when a shock load is applied to the bearing. Eventually, the bearing pounds itself loose and
is either replaced during maintenence or complete failure. This happens where the inner race and ball make contact.
This is due to the geometry of the 2 radius' (ball and race) contact one another. This is where I had the failure.
The inner races would start to flake or chip as the ceramic ball tried to pound into the race.
It was not a RPM issue as I had other motors running higher speeds, it had to do with rapid speed changes during shifting.
John
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ok we ended the 2012 season with 88.2hp and 80.7tq @ 6800 rpms. we installed hybrid ceramic bearings from worldwide, a new scorpion clutch pack, back cut the trans, and switched from rocket brand 100 unleaded to VP ms109. 2013 dyno data was 95.7hp and 85.02tq. now I don't know what percentage did what but it looks like the bearings were a key part in this very welcome increase in power.
we did a 136mph run before the headwinds killed us, and I didn't stay threw the rain on sunday, duh! wont ever leave a race early again. so july will be the next time we LSR the bike.
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The only real change looks like bearings and fuel. If it was me, I'd make another pull with the earlier fuel, back to back with the new fuel.
I'd like to know what that result had to show.
Rousee
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its the bearings, swapped out to the old rocket fuel then pump gas, and the HP / TQ stayed relatively the same. so the bearings in my case were key!
side note, I am lucky enough to work very close to World Wide Bearings, so I stopped by and seen Dave today, got the nickel tour. shot the shit, did a little bench racing. after all questions were answered and the new plan was made, Dave took me back in the shop for the test! now if your lucky enough to stop by you to can also participate in the test.
see, Dave sometimes ends up with a few extra, small ceramic bearing balls. so he double bags them for retention purposes and gives you a hammer and steel block....yup you guessed it, you whack the bearings with the hammer as many times as you want. as of yet not one has broken one ever. and let me tell you I was determined! I always believed they were brittle, nope, I beat those bearings into that steel block without even marring one. so there another test for you.
World Wide Bearings, proud sponsor of Runt Racing LSR
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So, were the trans and wheel bearings hybrid or full ceramic? Thanks for sharing the dyno results.
Keith LeBlanc
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hybrid from world wide bearings.
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here's a side note.
although I'm not going as fast as some, one thing I did notice was the fact that the bike does not slow down as fast as it did with relatively the same speeds. I'm finding myself becoming more aggressive [but safe] slowing down for the first turn off.
since its a production bike I will see if I can get better then OEM pads, but think that's as far as I can go.
just food for thought for anyone with OEM brakes. and ceramic bearings. [ it rolls easier so it rolls farther ] LOL.
the other option is the second turn off!