Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: fastlammy on December 22, 2012, 11:10:56 PM
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Hi All,
Im currently in the early planning stages of wanting to build a lambretta scooter powered streamliner, Ive recently found an aircraft rear tire the exceeds my requirments for my 175cc powerplant i have planned, but i'm now considering using a 18" Dia solid front wheel to overcome the same small wheel problem,would like to know, other than having an alloy wheel machined are there any other materials that have been used succefully?ie: any plastics, nylons or Composites.
thanks in advance for your time and idea's
Nicholai
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Don't think solid FRONT wheels are legal, but other than involvement with one MC liner that never got a time slip, I be a car guy.
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Hi FastLammy
Was waiting for you to turn up.
There's a few Alloy front wheels been run, just need to be designed so they don't cut up the salt, do you have a SCTA & DLRA rule book?
You going to cross the small ditch or the big one to run?
Cheers
jon
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Hi Jon
Yes i have SCTA book and i should print another copy of the DLRA one as i did have one, Plan was to cross the big ditch as most of the kiwis all go to states and i should be able to find some one with some room in there container.have found some good photos of ez-hooks front wheel, but im looking at different ideas that will get the rotating mass down, have found a composite rim for the rear, just need to confirm that it can be run at 100psi to match the spec's of the aircraft tire i want to use.
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Cool
May want to check with the rules committee about the aircraft tyre and get something in writing, very touchy subject.
If you have an SCTA rule book there's no need to have a DLRA one, we're the same just a year behind.
Downloading a BUB-AMA one is probably worthwhile, it's not hard to comply with both and gives more options after the ditch crossing.
Last time I walked about over here I could have sworn most kiwis came over here ;).
cheers
jon
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Thanks Jon
because of the tire issues, im taking time to make sure all my i's are doted and 'st are crossed
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I'm wondering why you're even considering solid wheels for your build. Most people don't go there unless there is no suitable tire for their application.
Sid.
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Yeah, was wondering how fast he plans on going myself... :cheers:
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I'm wondering why you're even considering solid wheels for your build. Most people don't go there unless there is no suitable tire for their application.
Sid.
That's mainly why I'm wanting to do it as my rear wheel is only a 10" rim and i want to keep the frontal area to a minimum, and a solid wheel seamed like a good way around the problem.
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Trivia -
The front tires for small jets are small OD, but they are wide. I gave a brand new one to Willy (RIP).
The smallest are about 13.5" OD, but with very heavy weight rating, and very high speed rating. They start out at 180mph, and 3000lb. I'd be surprised if they did not take over 250mph in a ground vehicle. Their speed rating is done at full weight but will safely absorb 3 times their weight rating on impact at full speed, then there is a safety factor added to it.
I did not write down which model I gave Willy, but if you go the aircraft route, the 13.5 x 6 -4 14-ply jet tire looks like the smallest high speed tire.
I do not know why they frown on jet tires. Perhaps because they are worried people will run ones that were taken out of service?
EDIT if you need 18" OD, 18 x 4.4 -10 is rated at 210mph.
$50 new - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Goodyear-18x4-4-Aircraft-Tire-Sabreliner-Lockheed-Jet-Star-/121046639032?pt=Motors_Aviation_Parts_Gear&hash=item1c2ef121b8&vxp=mtr
You will have to machine off the water flange.
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The way the salt has been at Gairdner, he might want to keep the water flange on. :roll:
But seriously, looks doable if you whittle some weight off it but like Ozzy Jon said, get approval before you build around it.
Nicholai, if you are interested in this tire, shipping that muther to NZ might get a little spendy.
If you want to arrange for one of the Kiwi's going to SW to take it down, you could ship it to me & I could pass it on at the salt.
Another option would be to send it to Kiwi Shipping in So Cal & get it a ride down in one of their containers.
Sid.
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Sidebar, that tire should be for a 10" dia rim, but you need to make/buy the 2-piece tubeless wheel, it won't mount on a one piece rim. Even a rebuilt jet wheel is $$$, so fabrication is perhaps the only option. They are heavy don't remember the weight, but heavy, and rigid. I can't deflect an unmounted tire by pushing down on it.
Pretty sure now that is the same size I gave Willy, because I miss-read the tire chart and thought it was for an 18" dia wheel and very tall. There are at least 3 ways aircraft tires are designated, so make sure you know what you are buying.
To be honest, I don't trust the Mickey Thompson Bonnevilles for heavy vehicles. I ran them because I had to, not because I thought it was safe. There aren't enough plies in them for heavy loads, and would be easy to puncture. I was going to run jet tires, but was discouraged from doing so. Jet tires are pretty safe unless you lock up the wheel with several thousand pounds on it at 200+ mph on pavement. Even then, they don't always fail. They can't come unseated, and the sidewall is so stiff, a car probably would not be able to hit the rim even with no air in it.
EDIT - I have a hunch why the SCTA frowns on jet tires. I was doing a little reading, and the mfr's put a "not recommended for ground vehicles" disclaimer in their catalogs, unless you do the engineering calculations first. Thing is, it is unlikely that an LSR vehicle could ever get close to full deflection on a jet tire.
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Hi Guys
Thanks for your reply,the Goodyear website has been very helpful with online info, and Ive downloaded the aircraft tire catalog, Ive been looking at a 18-4.25-10 tire, but i still want to find out if i will need to run the high pressure as advertised in the specs as I'm not going to have the same loaded as an aircraft, the tire listed above requires the least pressure out of the best suitable(100psi 2300 lbs rating 210 mph) and most importantly is not to big to fit on my lambretta engine casings.with regards to a rim I'm currently looking into using a Hiper composite rim which is. 3pc http://hiperracingwheels.com/ I plan on making my chassis with my legs either side of the forks, same as the bubbfab bike. this was why i thought running a solid wheel would be a good idea as it would give me more room as i could run nice narrow forks.
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Two questions
1... Is this a streamliner?
2....Have you contacted with anyone on the SCTA motorcycle committee with the the wheel & Issue and size. If so get it in writing.
Good luck on your build.
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Search this site for Gene burklands comments on aircraft tires at high speed. In spin testing F-16 tires for possible use on their streamliner the heavy beads on the aircraft tires were their weak point. Because of the bead reinforcement weight they expanded radialy and deflated the tire at high RPM.
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Two questions
1... Is this a streamliner?
2....Have you contacted with anyone on the SCTA motorcycle committee with the the wheel & Issue and size. If so get it in writing.
Good luck on your build.
Hi Glen
to answer your question
1.. yes motorcycle 175cc Lambretta motor-scooter powered
2.. No, but have rule book and have been working my way though it so i can submit my planed build to the committee
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Search this site for Gene burklands comments on aircraft tires at high speed. In spin testing F-16 tires for possible use on their streamliner the heavy beads on the aircraft tires were their weak point. Because of the bead reinforcement weight they expanded radialy and deflated the tire at high RPM.
Thanks for your post, but i don't think I'm ever going to go as fast as them guys, and i cant see myself going over 170mph maybe less.
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Hi Fastlammy
Are you going to run the standard diameter rim on the back?
Have you looked at extending the swing arm and running a bigger diameter?
Could help you in a lot of ways, tyre availability, gearing etc.
Not trying to tell you how to build your bike, just thinking out loud.
Cheers
jon
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Thanks for your post, but i don't think I'm ever going to go as fast as them guys, and i cant see myself going over 170mph maybe less.
You are right I guess I was responding to justaracers posts.
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Hi Jon
Thanks for the input, the swing arm is the engine so it could be but is a lot of welding you have trust your life with it, i had thought of just putting a sprocket on where the drum goes to and solid mounting the engine with a new swing arm, but ive decided it not in the spirit of build i true scooter powered stream liner, if a 125cc lambretta could do 121mph back in 1951 I must be able to do better and am willing to try, luckily new 5 speed kits have been released last year(4 gears are standard) So i think this will help a lot along with the taller dia of the air craft rear tire.
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Thanks for your post, but i don't think I'm ever going to go as fast as them guys, and i cant see myself going over 170mph maybe less.
You are right I guess I was responding to justaracers posts.
No worries thanks for your post.
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You may want to check the rules. I know in SCTA there's a minimum diameter for conventional motorcycles' wheels and it eliminates scooters.
Pete
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that's why im building a stream liner. thanks
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Thanks for your post, but i don't think I'm ever going to go as fast as them guys, and i cant see myself going over 170mph maybe less.
You are right I guess I was responding to justaracers posts.
Interesting. The F-16 tires are 217kts, 250mph. 25.5x8.0-14.
I was told the Phoenix ran jet aircraft tires at over 280mph? This is why I had looked into them, as my goal had been 220 with a ~36" tall tire.
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The 18x4.4 tires we use on the front of Bockscar have been 246 so far. They are rated to 217 Knots... 249.7 MPH.
The 20x4.4 rears that we run in small motor classes are rated for 190 Knots, 218 MPH, in 2001 we went 230.5 with those as drive tires.
We shaved the fronts about 15 years ago, may shave the rears for fun one of these days.
There have been several successful vehicles running jet tires, need to run them with plenty of pressure.
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Hi Jon
Thanks for the input, the swing arm is the engine so it could be but is a lot of welding you have trust your life with it, i had thought of just putting a sprocket on where the drum goes to and solid mounting the engine with a new swing arm, but ive decided it not in the spirit of build i true scooter powered stream liner, if a 125cc lambretta could do 121mph back in 1951 I must be able to do better and am willing to try, luckily new 5 speed kits have been released last year(4 gears are standard) So i think this will help a lot along with the taller dia of the air craft rear tire.
I'm getting you now.
The 5 speed kit should be handy, more split between bottom and top or just smaller splits in the middle.
have a spreadsheet to play with gearing, tyre sizes, engine power curves and drag estimates, if you want I can send you a copy.
Hours of useless entertainment but it does help with some of the what if questions.
Cheers
jon
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Hi Guys
Thanks for your reply,the Goodyear website has been very helpful with online info, and Ive downloaded the aircraft tire catalog, Ive been looking at a 18-4.25-10 tire, but i still want to find out if i will need to run the high pressure as advertised in the specs as I'm not going to have the same loaded as an aircraft, the tire listed above requires the least pressure out of the best suitable(100psi 2300 lbs rating 210 mph) and most importantly is not to big to fit on my lambretta engine casings.with regards to a rim I'm currently looking into using a Hiper composite rim which is. 3pc http://hiperracingwheels.com/ I plan on making my chassis with my legs either side of the forks, same as the bubbfab bike. this was why i thought running a solid wheel would be a good idea as it would give me more room as i could run nice narrow forks.
I'd run full recommended pressure. The pressure keeps the tire in the correct shape for it's speed rating.
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Hi Guys
Thanks for your reply,the Goodyear website has been very helpful with online info, and Ive downloaded the aircraft tire catalog, Ive been looking at a 18-4.25-10 tire, but i still want to find out if i will need to run the high pressure as advertised in the specs as I'm not going to have the same loaded as an aircraft, the tire listed above requires the least pressure out of the best suitable(100psi 2300 lbs rating 210 mph) and most importantly is not to big to fit on my lambretta engine casings.with regards to a rim I'm currently looking into using a Hiper composite rim which is. 3pc http://hiperracingwheels.com/ I plan on making my chassis with my legs either side of the forks, same as the bubbfab bike. this was why i thought running a solid wheel would be a good idea as it would give me more room as i could run nice narrow forks.
I'd run full recommended pressure. The pressure keeps the tire in the correct shape for it's speed rating.
Thanks for that, Any one got any good contacts for aircraft breaking yards? just want to get an idea on the price of a rim, just had a estimate of $1200 US to make one.
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Not an expert -
All I know about aircraft parts, is that ones without paperwork are cheap, ones with paperwork are expensive. And you need a part number to get anywhere. A single jet model might use 10 different versions of the same item depending it's build and history. We are still getting F4 Phantom stuff in at work with "old revision levels". A "newer" part won't fit. Why they need Phantom parts is a mystery to me. Target Drones?
ie - If you know a tire goes on a 737, it doesn't mean that all 737 wheels will work with that tire model.
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Thanks JustaRacer
Any suitable rims at your work?
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Thanks JustaRacer
Any suitable rims at your work?
Nope. There are aircraft junkyards, but I've never been to one. I know that the military normally makes you cut up airplane parts after sale.
Time for you to start calling used aircraft part places and taking notes. Ask for other places they know of, and any P/N's that might work.
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I made some solid wheels for my streamliner using some 6 series aluminum, they are 13.5 inches in diameter and four inches wide. The aluminum only was over $800 dollars plus machining. There are several teams using solid wheels I had to make them because SCTA was putting a speed limit on my previous rubber wheels. They were the 5x5 inch donut wheels that used to be used on dragsters. They tended to build up heat after three miles and chunk or explode. I'm converting my streamliner to a lakester now and the solid wheels are for sale if they might work for you. They mount on angela type spindles which are also for sale.
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FastL, watch Ebay for wheels, none will be usable as is, most will probably need modification for your use. Never try to put an aircraft tire on a one piece wheel. Watch government surplus sales. You may have to buy a lot of stuff but it will be cheap.
Acft wrecking yard... try Alamo Aircraft in San Antonio. There is probably a similar place near Ogden Utah, Warner Robbins Georgia and any other government repair depot. New tires must be mounted on a wheel within 3 years of manufacture or they go to surplus. Wheels are time change items. Just because a part has "timed out" for an airplane does not make it unusable for your purposes. Tires and wheels are sized the same, a 4.4x18 tire fits on a 4.4x18 wheel, wheel will be a 10 inch. You will likely find a lot more 20x4.4 than 18, that one has a 12 inch wheel. See the pattern yet.
The search takes time.
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... Watch government surplus sales. You may have to buy a lot of stuff but it will be cheap. ...
Make sure you read the fine print before bidding on a lot. Due to ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations), the US gov't is putting "must be destroyed prior to leaving" on most parts of weapons systems, such as aircraft.
Here's the Gov't site: http://www.govliquidation.com/
You might notice that there are very few aircraft parts anymore. Unless it was a "dual use" part number, the aircraft parts are sold in bulk scrap, and must be destroyed.
Note this example:
http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=5944638&convertTo=USD
These are wrecked jet engines. However:
All scrap under this contract requires mutilation by the buyer prior to removal if allowed by the base or the mutilation must be witnessed and certified by DOD personnel at another facility. Title to the material does not transfer to buyer until scrap has been mutilated. Buyer agrees to allow USG personnel to witness destruction. Mutilation for purposes of our contractual obligation is defined as physically altering an item so that it is no longer suitable for its intended purpose and cannot be reconditioned
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Usually just want it de-mil'd, they figured out a while back that a lot of scrap was being sold back to them as usable. They don't want to buy wrecked jet turbine blades back. :-D
In my old job I helped the gov run down a bunch of bad fuel pumps that were removed and scrapped 20 years earlier... before another airplane exploded in flight... yep they had bought them back and were putting them on airplanes.
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I made some solid wheels for my streamliner using some 6 series aluminum, they are 13.5 inches in diameter and four inches wide. The aluminum only was over $800 dollars plus machining. There are several teams using solid wheels I had to make them because SCTA was putting a speed limit on my previous rubber wheels. They were the 5x5 inch donut wheels that used to be used on dragsters. They tended to build up heat after three miles and chunk or explode. I'm converting my streamliner to a lakester now and the solid wheels are for sale if they might work for you. They mount on angela type spindles which are also for sale.
Thanks for that ill keep.it mind.
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Just a quick message, to thoughs that have been interested in this thread, managed to pick up 2 aircraft rims , and some used tires to help with the planning stages of my build.still undecided what to do on the front rim side of things, and as ive been lucky enough to get hold 2 rims im woundering wether i should just run the same front and back?as ive relized running a solid rim will limit my ability test the bike(on a beach maybe, but wouldnt be able to put it on a runway with a solid front rim)
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Cool, you planning on starting a build diary?
The amount of assistance I've been given on mine is pretty humbling and worthwhile, my bike will be better from it.
Cheers
jon
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Hi jon
yes i will do but not quite yet,if your offer is still there for that spreedsheet info i,ll take you up on it
cheers Nicholai
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What size tires did you get? All tires are not rated the same for speed. If you google the federal stock number it should give you the speed rating. Shaving does help keep the heat down and extends the life. Good luck. Will be watching for your build :cheers:
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There the front landing gear tires of a small passenger jet, 18-4.4-10 210mph rated,Michelin brand, require 69psi. any one got any info on shaving them, the guy at the airport workshop was super helpful and has offered me an ongoing supply of used tires to play with and test with.
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I have cut a few. Found regular tire shops can not shave them, the rubber is too hard. I have cut them on a lathe, with a pointed tool from the side, cuts come off like rubber bands. I have also made a set up to spin them and use a body grinder with very coarse sand paper, this makes a big mess but does a very nice job, takes some time but you can remove the water chern and they look good when your finished. Good luck.
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I had thought about using aircraft tires on a project that never got started but I was told by someone (Goodyear?) that although aircraft tires may have high speed ratings, they are not capable of sustaing those speeds for longer distances. Anyone else heard this?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Neil,
If the aircraft guys will talk to you, they all say that. The 18 X 4.4 217 KTS tires on the front of the Bockscar are shaved and have been good so far :-D to 246 MPH :cheers: The older 20 X 4.4 195 KTS type VII tires ran ok at 230 MPH not shaved, but we had problems, tread loss at 200 MPH, with new ones. We started using 21 inch LSR Goodyears on the rear but plan to shave some of the 20 X 4.4 tires.
John