Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: vintagehotrod on December 22, 2012, 06:47:30 PM
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I kinda like the idea , is there any more written rules on this class? Trans rules , quickchange ok?
I cant see it being any cheaper but as an old school engine builder I think it would be fun to actually try making power with oem heads just like the good old days. Yes its true that the BBchev should dominate or maybe early hemi's. The cost of a destroked crank might chase a few poeple off but I wonder.
Dave and I had lunch today and talked about bringing the 811 back out to run in this class , I allready have most of the parts needed exept a 3.300" chevy crank , anyone.......I would take a 3.250"...anyone.....
I think a resourcefull person could build a record contending engine in the $7500.-$10,000. range. I know the C/G roadster engines cost alote more than that!!
Lets face it , if you want to go 200 mph in a roadster its gonna cost money , even more if you want the record. If thats to much for you there are other classes and vehicle types that will give you more bang for the buck .
Anyone else here thinking about running this new class?
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Well, John, you're right on all accounts. But only one guy is gonna wear the crown. And the other old-school guys are gonna be runner-ups. So we didn't need another class for the runner-ups -- some of us are already running in that category. No one has prevented them from running in the regular classes. Once someone sets the bar high -- which it is in the regular classes, they'll go back into hiding -- if they're all out there with their engines reving waiting on this opportunity.
Stan
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John,
As mentioned in the beginning of the writeup the class is the same as the current Gas Roadster. Cage, fire system, trans(no restrictions), all same same. Cost savings? I don't see it.
DW
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A very interesting concept for a class..... My take is that it is a "SHOOTOUT CLASS"..... It would have been even more interesting if there were TWO engine size classes (with B as the larger one)
It would also be very cool to charge, say, an extra $50 to every entrant in the class so that they all get a "ROADSTER WARS SHOOTOUT" trophy with their name and fastest speed....
What is to NOT like about this idea for a class?..... maybe that it is not limited to only running "crate motors".... at a cost of around $5000?
Now....how about the same idea in a belly tank (ONLY) Lakester class?
LOL
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Ok here are the new rules for this class.
5.B.2.a American Gas Roadster – C/AGR (Gas only)
This is a single displacement engine class only. All rules which pertain to the existing Fuel/Gas Roadster class, 5.2.B, above will be enforced in this class. The engine used must be an American Automotive Production or Light Duty Pick Up Truck engines produced prior to 1973. The maximum engine displacement is 372.99 cid (6.111 L). The engine can be of a larger OEM displacement and reduced to the class maximum by reducing the bore and/or stroke. All engines in this class must run OEM iron blocks and cylinder heads. The burden of proof as to the origin of the engine components lies with the competitor. Induction can be either carburetors, mechanical fuel injection. Ignition must be a single magneto or points distributor. No EFI, computer controlled ignition, data collection, etc. computers are allowed.
Engine class allowed: C
The concern I have for this class is very simple. The way I read the rules it only requires American Automotive Production (OEM) castings for the heads and block produced prior to 1973. It does not say they have to remain in original configuration. Now we will have people raising the ports on OEM heads just like they did back in the early 70's in Pro Stock class at the drags. It also does not say you cannot have a sheetmetal intake. etc.
Without stricter rules on this class, you will see this class go the way the vintage engine classes have gone. $$$$$
IMO it should have included, Factory Crankshaft, Factory rocker arms, No Titanium valves, No sheetmetal intake manifolds, only cast factory or cast aftermarket intake manifolds, that match original factory gaskets. Head ports must align with original factory gaskets, Cam lift multiplied by rocker arm ratio limited to no more than .600" valve lift, OEM rod and main bearings for specific year of motor block, example chevy 400 block must use 2.65 main bearings and not sized down 350, 2.45 main or 283, 2.30 main. Oil system must be wet sump, Combustion chambers must be original factory CC's, etc. With rules like this it would make for some fun racing and keep the costs down.
Tom G.
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Ok here are the new rules for this class.
5.B.2.a American Gas Roadster – C/AGR (Gas only)
This is a single displacement engine class only. All rules which pertain to the existing Fuel/Gas Roadster class, 5.2.B, above will be enforced in this class. The engine used must be an American Automotive Production or Light Duty Pick Up Truck engines produced prior to 1973. The maximum engine displacement is 372.99 cid (6.111 L). The engine can be of a larger OEM displacement and reduced to the class maximum by reducing the bore and/or stroke. All engines in this class must run OEM iron blocks and cylinder heads. The burden of proof as to the origin of the engine components lies with the competitor. Induction can be either carburetors, mechanical fuel injection. Ignition must be a single magneto or points distributor. No EFI, computer controlled ignition, data collection, etc. computers are allowed.
Engine class allowed: C
The concern I have for this class is very simple. The way I read the rules it only requires American Automotive Production (OEM) castings for the heads and block produced prior to 1973. It does not say they have to remain in original configuration. Now we will have people raising the ports on OEM heads just like they did back in the early 70's in Pro Stock class at the drags. It also does not say you cannot have a sheetmetal intake. etc.
Without stricter rules on this class, you will see this class go the way the vintage engine classes have gone. $$$$$
IMO it should have included, Factory Crankshaft, Factory rocker arms, No Titanium valves, No sheetmetal intake manifolds, only cast factory or cast aftermarket intake manifolds, that match original factory gaskets. Head ports must align with original factory gaskets, Cam lift multiplied by rocker arm ratio limited to no more than .600" valve lift, OEM rod and main bearings for specific year of motor block, example chevy 400 block must use 2.65 main bearings and not sized down 350, 2.45 main or 283, 2.30 main. Oil system must be wet sump, Combustion chambers must be original factory CC's, etc. With rules like this it would make for some fun racing and keep the costs down.
Tom G.
Tom - I think that you just said in words here the concerns that I had stirring around in my brain....
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You should have made some input Tom when the class was presented at your club meeting.
DW
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This will end up just like the DRAG boys with exoitc--- heads tweaked by one or two guys at $20,000 to be competetive!!
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My thought exactly Sparky. Cost savings?
DW
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My motorsport of choice ( drag racing ) wasnt cheap when I was forced to stop due to theft of car 8 years ago and as I keep getting reminded and reading, LSR isnt a poors man sport either no matter what class you choose. Makes me question why in the world would I wanna start :roll: lol
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Frankie maybe you are just another sick puppy like the rest of us "salt fever" fiends :-D lol
Sounds like we need to have another USFRA type event! RUN what you brung with saftey inspections on fire and cage requirements: WHAT can you do??
1. mile what can you do
1.5 mile what can you do
2.0 mile--- that's it--- what you can do in 2
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Frankie maybe you are just another sick puppy like the rest of us "salt fever" fiends :-D lol
Sounds like we need to have another USFRA type event! RUN what you brung with saftey inspections on fire and cage requirements: WHAT can you do??
1. mile what can you do
1.5 mile what can you do
2.0 mile--- that's it--- what you can do in 2
Bill, they already have the 1 and 2... you can do 139 and 159 :-D
Back to subject... I guess there were just not enough opportunities to lodge protests in street roadster any more... :roll: this should get those back on track. :-D
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How is this not a class for Small block Chevys and 354 Chryslers? Neither of which need any help. if I was making a "Classic V8" class my rules would have a "Single rocker shaft per bank" rule. Then i would make an exception for Pontiacs and 348 Chevys. If guys want to run a Chrysler, use a poly head. Or a wedge head engine. Otherwise it's just more of the same. One more trophy to hand out.
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Back to subject... I guess there were just not enough opportunities to lodge protests in street roadster any more... this should get those back on track.
:-D :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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I agree with DW where is the cost savings for this new class?, hey I have an idea to keep it cheap, all we have to do is say that no one can spend more than $10K total on this class and you have to show cost records, and if you spend over $10K any racer can walk up to your car and offer you $10K for it and you must sell it for that price to the new owner, thus, this will keep this new racing class cheap, don't they do that in horse racing as a claimer race??? :cheers:
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SS # 1---its un limited
Goodnes guys this sounds just like brackett racing---no thanks---I would bet there are lots of records that can be bumped IF they started to NOODLE this thing by body choices, rear axle choices, trans choices, eng choices---but the bottom line if one choose a class that is pretty hard--you are going to have to do all of them and MOTHER NATURE is going to have to smile with a good track and good weather.
I most likely will not bring a NA eng to August any more----because I will need "Mother" on my side to get where I need to be.
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A very interesting concept for a class..... My take is that it is a "SHOOTOUT CLASS"..... It would have been even more interesting if there were TWO engine size classes (with B as the larger one)
It would also be very cool to charge, say, an extra $50 to every entrant in the class so that they all get a "ROADSTER WARS SHOOTOUT" trophy with their name and fastest speed....
What is to NOT like about this idea for a class?..... maybe that it is not limited to only running "crate motors".... at a cost of around $5000?
Now....how about the same idea in a belly tank (ONLY) Lakester class?
LOL
I have been thinking about what I said in my first post.... at first it seemed like such a cool idea..... and then, I got to remembering NHRA econo dragster.... the first year it looked like a lot of people running what today would almost be "crate" motors.... and by about the third year, the highly sought after stock parts were being priced into the stratosphere.... (example - does anyone know about the "461X" SBC head casting?) there was NOTHING econo about the class anymore....
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I still like it , and I dont think it will get to crazy for awhile.
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It will be fun until the "nut" farmers decide to step it up. :cheers:
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It will be fun until the "nut" farmers decide to step it up. :cheers:
I have said it before but my 5 year old has financed a fair amount of that operation with all the dried mangos he has gone through!!!!!! :-D
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I still like it , and I dont think it will get to crazy for awhile.
It will be fun until the "nut" farmers decide to step it up. :cheers:
I have said it before but my 5 year old has financed a fair amount of that operation with all the dried mangos he has gone through!!!!!! :-D
Well, I do know that I won't be able to sneak any of our Dodge R5 engines in as old 318 polysphericals.... So, looking through the parts on hand, I found a pair of iron Chev LS6 heads (bare), a 1970 BBC 396/402 block, a 1970 LS7 block, a 3.30" stroke crank from our "Big Chief" 434" engine, Carillo rods and a box of miscellaneous parts (pushrods, old pistons, bolts etc).... I know where I can borrow a worked over tunnel ram with two dominators as well....
Hmmmmm..... I wonder what a 370" rotating assembly under a set of well ported big port open chamber heads could do in the horsepower department.
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I don't know--- but I will trade my new and un used 3.1 BBC crank for your 3.30 BBC crank :-P
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Ill take the 3.1 or the 3.3 if either of you want to sell them.
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That combo may well be a challenge to the early Olds, Buicks, Cadillacs, Studebakers, Lincolns and Plymouths that are sitting around, waiting to run next year.
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Joe Law used a 348 crank (3.250") in his C engine .
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Maybe a all roadster meet as there is no shortage of them, how about in March while it's still cool and no one else will want to run as the lines should be long. Have fun. :cheers: :roll:
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That combo may well be a challenge to the early Olds, Buicks, Cadillacs, Studebakers, Lincolns and Plymouths that are sitting around, waiting to run next year.
Stan, I am guessing that you are talking about the circa early 70s BBC that is buildable with the parts I have on hand.... It would be a pretty stout combo, I think. I know that the early large port open chamber heads would do well with an engine in the 360 to 370 cubic inch area - especially if worked over. The trouble is though, that these heads are completely untouched and probably worth a bunch to a purist collector..... I know that worked over heads from that era are available in this area (and from anywhere else in North America by way of UPS or Fedex etc....and probably for the same amount of $$$$ as what it would cost for a quality flow bench porting job....
As you say though, the people who are waiting to trot out ther early Olds, Buick, Caddy etc engines would probably be "left behind" by the horsepower available with what could be done with a late 60s/early 70s model BBC or Chrysler 426 hemi running at 370 cu. in..... in the end, those with the coin to build the engines and running gear will be the ultimate record setters.....and the class will be a lot less fun when that happens.
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They won't be left behind cause we no that their not going to show up............all a dream and of course another page in the book..
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They won't be left behind cause we no that their not going to show up............all a dream and of course another page in the book..
Unfortunately.....yeah.....
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You guys should check out the add posted here on Landracing on Nov. 1st this year in the for sale category. Complete assembly for a 365 cu. in. BBC. The perfect fit for this class.
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I like the sound of this proposed new class. Good idea to restrict it to 'C' class to see how things work out.
With regard all the talk about destroked BBC's & Hemi's from that era being best bet, lets not forget that in the day the Cleveland Ford had to carry more weight per cubic inch than any other domestic engine style in 70's NHRA Pro/Stock. Hmmm, got a good old pair of hi-port plated iron 'Clevo' heads keeping the rats from opening the hen house door out back.
Chris Harris.........NZed.
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I like the sound of this proposed new class. Good idea to restrict it to 'C' class to see how things work out.
With regard all the talk about destroked BBC's & Hemi's from that era being best bet, lets not forget that in the day the Cleveland Ford had to carry more weight per cubic inch than any other domestic engine style in 70's NHRA Pro/Stock. Hmmm, got a good old pair of hi-port plated iron 'Clevo' heads keeping the rats from opening the hen house door out back.
Chris Harris.........NZed.
A very valid point, Chris..... and, well, what can I say - except that a big port Cleveland was(still is) to me, a "clone" of a big block Chevy..... I know that comment will, in all likelihood, get a discussion going....
Seriously though.... power-wise, a Cleveland would be right up there with a BBC .... it is just that, from my perspective, I don't have any Cleveland parts at my disposal or even available nearby...
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The $$$ savings in this class is pure justification!
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I like the sound of this proposed new class. Good idea to restrict it to 'C' class to see how things work out.
With regard all the talk about destroked BBC's & Hemi's from that era being best bet, lets not forget that in the day the Cleveland Ford had to carry more weight per cubic inch than any other domestic engine style in 70's NHRA Pro/Stock. Hmmm, got a good old pair of hi-port plated iron 'Clevo' heads keeping the rats from opening the hen house door out back.
Chris Harris.........NZed.
When I first read about the class, the first thing that popped in my head was the 4V 351 Cleveland.
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5.B.2.a American Gas Roadster – C/AGR (Gas only)
This is a single displacement engine class only. All rules which pertain to the existing Fuel/Gas Roadster class, 5.2.B, above will be enforced in this class. The engine used must be an American Automotive Production or Light Duty Pick Up Truck engines produced prior to 1973. The maximum engine displacement is 372.99 cid (6.111 L). The engine can be of a larger OEM displacement and reduced to the class maximum by reducing the bore and/or stroke. All engines in this class must run OEM iron blocks and cylinder heads. The burden of proof as to the origin of the engine components lies with the competitor. Induction can be either carburetors, mechanical fuel injection. Ignition must be a single magneto or points distributor. No EFI, computer controlled ignition, data collection, etc. computers are allowed.
Engine class allowed: C
Did this become a new class for 2013 ?
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Lets think about this for a minute Donnie,
You more than likely pulled that from the list of rules changes for 2013. It does not state "coming in 2014" or some such thing. The class is listed as an extension of Gas Roadster.
Oh yeah - yes.
DW
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No I just copied that from page one of this thread. I had heard about it but this is the first time i read anything on it.
I see you can run a mag or points what about a non adjustable MSD 6AL ing ?
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That unit is point of contention in all vintage and classic classes. I would ask the guy who put the class together, see section 16 of your rulebook, Mike Spacek.
DW
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Thanks, Might need to go look through my old junk pile.