Landracing Forum
El Mirage => El Mirage General Chat => Topic started by: metermatch on November 29, 2012, 05:40:11 PM
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I just noticed a rule change for 2013 at Bonneville regarding rookie runs and setting records.
It says a rookie driver/rider may qualify for a record on the rookie run if the existing record is less than 150 mph.
Any possibility that rule will be extended to El Mirage?
Jeff
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Bring it up at your club meeting. The El Mirage procedure change meetings are approaching.
DW
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Its my understanding that one can not set a record at El M out of the "rookie line", that is for rookie orientation and lisc. up only!!
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I believe you're right, Sparky. But as Dan suggests, that can be changed.
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If it's not permitted, perhaps there is a reason?
Rookies can run earlier in the day than their points would permit them to do IIRC.
In other words, it can give a possible unearned speed advantage when running against an existing record? Might get the existing record holder a little miffed? Or get more points than normal.
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They usually run the other lines out for a while before they send rookies. And having a speed limit on them leads to not destroying the course as much as higher speed cars would.
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I remember running early, but not sure how many cars ran first.
It would only be significant to records under 150?
In other words, if the record was hard to set at 96mph, it would behoove you to put a rookie in the saddle for a record breaking attempt.
Rookie is not always inexperienced.
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Do I smell a rookie points champion?
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The first 25 run before the starter will even think about the rookie line. Then it's up to him.
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Why change a rookie system that isn't broke. It's worked for years and every record should be earned as it is now.
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There is also a minor safety concern.
Often, when you run a new track, you do a shakeout run. You are feeling the grip, checking the gauges, and being more cautious since it's a "Fun Run".
If the goal of a rookie pass becomes "go as fast as you can", it might temp you to push it when it doesn't feel right.
You can spin/crash at relatively low speed. I think a Famous Bike Rider did that recently? :?
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Any possibility that rule will be extended to El Mirage?
No.
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I takes most veterans of the sport YEARS to get a record, now what fun would it be to get a record on your first run?
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:-D
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I kind of had in mind the two day races, in May and November. I agree that a first timer should spend a day relaxing and learning what it is like to drive, no record allowed But on two day races I was thinking the first day could be rookie qualification, and then Sunday could go for a record. While that may seem overly optimistic, my car has already gone 10-20 mph faster than six records in it's engine size on the books, and that was before tuning and obvious easy drag reduction (syn oil eng&trans, electric water pump, dry sump oil, correct header, etc and wrong gears.)
My feeling is that there aren't enough of these races, when you take into account the races that get cancelled, or are just poor days to race (weather), and the fact that I also drag race, and I have at least one conflict next year, and I need to drag race that day as I was the champ in my class last year. I will probably have another conflict with El Mirage when I make the division finals.
All that allowing a record run on the second day is doing is effectively giving another race day to a rookie, instead of the existing rule that states that a rookie is a rookie whether it is a one day race or two.
I'm just trying to speed things up a bit. I want to get accomplished what I can with the existing motor, and then I want to try two other engine sizes in the car, and I don't want this to take a decade.
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Have you read the El Mirage operating procedures, if not they are posted on the SCTA web site and cover the reasons for the rookie rules etc. Some of this will be updated after the 1st of the year. Do you belong to a club yet. The Comp Coupe builds are very specific and need to followed. Asking a lot of questions is a good thing. Print everything you discuss and keep it in a note book (SCTA/BNI Log book) along with photos and any input from the rules committee during the build.
Have fun and see you on the lakes or salt.
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I kind of had in mind the two day races, in May and November. I agree that a first timer should spend a day relaxing and learning what it is like to drive, no record allowed But on two day races I was thinking the first day could be rookie qualification, and then Sunday could go for a record. While that may seem overly optimistic, my car has already gone 10-20 mph faster than six records in it's engine size on the books, and that was before tuning and obvious easy drag reduction (syn oil eng&trans, electric water pump, dry sump oil, correct header, etc and wrong gears.)
My feeling is that there aren't enough of these races, when you take into account the races that get cancelled, or are just poor days to race (weather), and the fact that I also drag race, and I have at least one conflict next year, and I need to drag race that day as I was the champ in my class last year. I will probably have another conflict with El Mirage when I make the division finals.
All that allowing a record run on the second day is doing is effectively giving another race day to a rookie, instead of the existing rule that states that a rookie is a rookie whether it is a one day race or two.
I'm just trying to speed things up a bit. I want to get accomplished what I can with the existing motor, and then I want to try two other engine sizes in the car, and I don't want this to take a decade.
You get more than a single run in a day unless something goes wrong. Usually about 3.
Run the rookie pass, then get back in staging and let 'er rip. You can set a record in a single day normally.
Essentially, you show up on Saturday, then tech the car. Then go to the rookie meeting that evening.
Sun AM, you get in the rookie line and do not exceed 150mph under any conditions. If you have a chute, deploy it.
Repack your chute, and you will run with the last run group as your run # will be high.
That's how it was, not sure if it applies today.
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It is my understanding that the rules state that a rookie is a rookie for the duration of the entire meet, whether it is one day or two. So I don't think that will work, if I understand it correctly.
I am only suggesting that a possible rule change could be that a rookie is a rookie for only one day, assuming the rookie makes one or more safe passes on the first day, and goes through the orientation.
Jeff
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It is my understanding that the rules state that a rookie is a rookie for the duration of the entire meet, whether it is one day or two. So I don't think that will work, if I understand it correctly.
I am only suggesting that a possible rule change could be that a rookie is a rookie for only one day, assuming the rookie makes one or more safe passes on the first day, and goes through the orientation.
Jeff
Hmmm... Not that I remember. I think I made 3 passes my first event and set a record. I could be wrong of course.
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Why change a rookie system that isn't broke. It's worked for years and every record should be earned as it is now.
That nice...
This was our first year out this year...So we had the ugly rookie sticker on our bike. I ran a open record class and my rookie run didn't qualify us for setting a record under 150 even in a class that was open... So we made our rookie run, then a qualifier that was soft. On our return run I blew intake seals and coasted through the 3 to set our record...So if the rookie pass had counted then it's possible the next run might have been better, would used less fuel, and might have not run as slow as we wouldn't have had to try to be conservative to make as many passes...
I'm big into following tradition of those before me. I also accept positive changes and safety updates with open arms... recently there are change people have asked for that would be an improvement to existing standards like helmet certs that were shot down...and other changes that have been made that don't appear to make things safer or better all they do is force people to either alter their vehicles or equipment but there is no reason to do so because no indecents were used as examples for the change to improve safety...
Like I said, I'm new to this sport but not new to motorsports. Some of these alterations and updates seem to have other motivations behind them rather than improving safety or attendance.
An I out of line with this?
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It is my understanding that the rules state that a rookie is a rookie for the duration of the entire meet, whether it is one day or two.
Read the procedures: They (rookies) will run from the Rookie line for the duration of the meet. Any exceptions will be at the discretion of the Race Director, Rookie Director and/or the appropriate Tech Chair or Chief Inspector and will be considered on a case-by-case basis.
Drivers/riders that have shown exemplary driving/riding ability and done everything else correctly have been graduated out of rookie status early to compete out of the regular lines. As it says in the procedure, it's on a case-by-case basis. Setting records will always come second to proper driver/rider conduct and on the train of thought....
A couple years ago it was decided to make the no records on rookie run rule the same for both El Mirage and Bonneville although it was never officially put into the rule book. For whatever reason this was changed and now you can officially qualify for a record on your rookie run (which I personally don't really agree with but whatever) at Bonneville.
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I'm with you... I have a "rookie" who will be running another one of our bikes next year. That being said I don't want her to qualify until after she proves to officials shes able to handle the bike fair and square just like I had to and just like the others before me.... a rookie pass for a licence shouldn't have the pressure of a qualifier on it. I think it could lead to some mishaps if someone who is new goes full tilt on their first pass....
Along with possible dangers there is tradition and while we may have qualified on our first rookie pass we respected the tradition without question and got back in line.
In the interest of tradition, rules or not I will make my new rider forfeit her qualifier on her licence pass in 2013 and make two more runs (qualifier and back up) because it's something she has to earn the way the greats before us earned it.
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Not really a big worry as a rookie will still have to make licensing runs and if the record is that slow---first license is 125---then why not allow the qualifier?
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At El M I was told when I first ran there that I could continue to run in the ROOKIE Lane to lisc up as necessary. When I wanted to to TRY to set a record; I then HAD to move the normal race meet lines, if the car had then been over 2 I would be entitled to run out of the 2 line if I so chose. It was still considered my "rookie meet"--but I could set a record if possible. I have help worked the "check in table" at El M for a meet for the last several years and I have seen several minor tweaks but this I think is still mostly how its done..
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Not really a big worry as a rookie will still have to make licensing runs and if the record is that slow---first license is 125---then why not allow the qualifier?
That's what my question was... I was told it was a tradition thing so I accepted it and said cool. It puts a lil extra wear and tear on things yer first year but it does show you where you are at. When I inquired about why it was like it was I was told it was safety and tradition and accepted it... So if that was the reason why change it? Really doesn't matter in the long run I guess...but why alter something that was "tradition" and not alter helmet standards.
I guess I'm trying to wrap my head around why some things change for no reason and why other positive changes are pushed off and looked at as unimportant.
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Politics and points.... that's what rules the rules at EM and it all bleeds over to the salt
Every rule change made that is not safety related it designed to give someone an advantage or someone a disadvantage.
JMO...I think rookie runs should be just that... if your junk won't run the extra 2 miles at Bonneville you need to reconsider your program.
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Politics and points.... that's what rules the rules at EM and it all bleeds over to the salt
Every rule change made that is not safety related it designed to give someone an advantage or someone a disadvantage.
JMO...I think rookie runs should be just that... if your junk won't run the extra 2 miles at Bonneville you need to reconsider your program.
I'm in agreement with you. We made 9 runs and we didn't complain about the licence pass prior to being allowed to shoot for records. We typically don't buck the system we play with in it so no one can complain about what we do... the political side of things kinda takes the magic and traditional/historical importance out of the events and clubs though. If I was a club member I would be outraged by anyone altering or trying to alter rules for any reason other than to improve safety or the events. Changing a rule to benefit someone or to internalize a record should outrage anyone participating. It dumps on the traditions and historical significance of the club and events and makes the whole mess a political game rather than the great ideas and nature the great drivers/riders/teams before all of us stood for. When Ab set records he invited others with open arms to shoot for them, he didn't set a record and then alter the rules so no one could touch what he did...
Just my personal thoughts... but I got involved because Bonneville has historical significance and traditions I wanted to be part of. The racers and teams act as families and in today's world it seems to be important for us as Americans to have some sort of tradition upheld...something others travel the world to be part of because it's important. Proposing a change to lock a record down or make it easier for a few to somehow be important is an insult to the vets and the past is all I'm saying...
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El Mirage is a club based event and people show up for decades, even when a record is not realistic.
To keep the legacy cars running, the points system permits them to compete and acquire points, to make it fun for them.
So there are two things going: El Mirage Records, and the Elmo points competition.
Without the points competition, there might not be enough entries to even hold an Elmo event.
But, it causes conflicts between the two.
There was an entry that was very sweet, and well engineered, but had to run against a 130mph minimum. For his engine type, that was a stretch in a full sized truck. He could get close, but couldn't hit the number. Then some animal with a late model engine pushed the record so high as to be out of range for them. I think he should have gotten a record at 125(?). He wasn't in the points chase. AFAIK, they retired SCTA operations when the late model entry ran the record up.
In a dream world, there would "records" that were under the Elmo Minimum, but not eligible for points until they pass the minimum.
It's hard to tell if the minimums scare new racers away. But if they do, something should be adjusted. If they don't have any effect, then by all means, leave it alone.
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"Then some animal with a late model engine pushed the record so high as to be out of range for them."
You well know that there are classes for Vintage engines. The others classes are divided by cubic inches. Would you have them figure a manufacturing date into the formula? For the block? Heads? Intake?
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"It's hard to tell if the minimums scare new racers away. But if they do, something should be adjusted. If they don't have any effect, then by all means, leave it alone."
It's hard to tell if the records scare new racers away, too. A lot of the current records have been set over minimums -- and could be a lot scarier. This association doesn't give records for showing up.
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It's hard to tell if the records scare new racers away, too. A lot of the current records have been set over minimums -- and could be a lot scarier. This association doesn't give records for showing up.
In any class with a minimum, you have no idea what the fastest entry is in that class.
If there is a 160 minimum, there could be several cars who ran. Who was the fastest? Your answer is nobody.
I don't buy that. If somebody went 155 at Elmo in that class, but nobody else went as fast, they were the fastest in that class. That's fact. In your eyes, they never entered an event. That's not a fact.
How often that has happened is anybodies guess. Data is not kept that way.
"Records" are proof that it's possible. Minimums are purely to keep track of season points, they are not based on known speeds in that specific class.
You assume an C engine is always faster than D engine in all classes. That's not based on automotive history, and even the existing records often prove that way of thinking about minimums is not always correct.
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"Minimums are purely to keep track of season points,"
And when in season, they keep the cherry-pickin' down.
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"You assume an C engine is always faster than D engine in all classes."
I don't know how you think I assume that. I do assume that a C-sized engine has more potential horsepower than a D engine. But not all engine builds are equal. And the records do sometimes show a smaller engine with a higher speed. But almost all of them have surpassed the minimums that were required for them -- some just more than others.
What factors would you choose to replace displacement in setting minimums in the same category? Fuel is potentially faster than gas. Blown is potentially faster than unblown. C is faster than D. Maybe this is too simple -- but it's worked for a long time.
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"Minimums are purely to keep track of season points,"
And when in season, they keep the cherry-pickin' down.
I have no idea what cherry picking is.
You prep your car, and you haul the mail. If you want to drive like grandma then let her drive.
Or are you saying Points == Bracket Racing?
If "cherry picking" were the name of the game, there would only be roadsters and motorcycles. Seems there are other entries as well.
I guess some people just want to haul arse in their car based on what shows up in lanes. However, fear of the Cherry Monster keeps some of them from being the fastest in their SCTA class.
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"You assume an C engine is always faster than D engine in all classes."
I don't know how you think I assume that. I do assume that a C-sized engine has more potential horsepower than a D engine. But not all engine builds are equal. And the records do sometimes show a smaller engine with a higher speed. But almost all of them have surpassed the minimums that were required for them -- some just more than others.
What factors would you choose to replace displacement in setting minimums in the same category? Fuel is potentially faster than gas. Blown is potentially faster than unblown. C is faster than D. Maybe this is too simple -- but it's worked for a long time.
Why are some larger engines slower than smaller engines? Engine design.
There are not an infinite number of production engines. It's finite.
In any case, if you are ASKING me, minimums should be for points only, not records. No points for records under the minimum. They still get their "Fastest Hupmobile" bragging rights, but they don't compete in points.
Let's look at UDT, where the minimum was raised. It allows 750ci. The record at Elmo will NOT be set with an engine larger than 450ci. Why? The engines larger than 450ci are mutts.
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I'm not sure if this discussion has gotten off track, and perhaps I phrased the original question a bit vague, but this is what I was thinking.
(1) I completely agree that a complete rookie should not try to set a record in their first pass. They should be learning how to run safely.
(2) If the rookie makes 1 or 2 passes correctly and safely, then they should be allowed to go for it.
My concern is the rule that makes a rookie a rookie, unable to set records, for an entire meet, one day or two, and whether they make 1 pass or ten. Having to make numerous passes over two days, or just deciding to not make any passes the second day, seems a bit much.
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for the f'ing love of all things fast... did you not read my post???
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I'm not sure if this discussion has gotten off track, and perhaps I phrased the original question a bit vague, but this is what I was thinking.
(1) I completely agree that a complete rookie should not try to set a record in their first pass. They should be learning how to run safely.
(2) If the rookie makes 1 or 2 passes correctly and safely, then they should be allowed to go for it.
My concern is the rule that makes a rookie a rookie, unable to set records, for an entire meet, one day or two, and whether they make 1 pass or ten. Having to make numerous passes over two days, or just deciding to not make any passes the second day, seems a bit much.
Welcome to the interwebbythingy. Hijacking threads is common. Sorry.
Like Nathan said, if you show up, pass tech, pay attention to the rookie orientation, get in the rookie lane, then make a clean pass per the rules without scaring anyone, you should be allowed to run from the regular lanes next pass at Elmo. This is how it normally works.
Forget to pop your chute, turn out in the wrong direction, blow out the back door, speed down the return road, exceed your tech speed, etc, you'll have to keep running rookie passes.
Don't worry so much. It's supposed to be fun, and everyone wants you to do well and have a good time.
I'd go to an event first and watch though. Ask lots of questions. See how the tech and lanes work.
You'll be nervous your first race because things are different than what you're normally used to. Watching an event helps a lot.
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Like Nathan said, if you show up, pass tech, pay attention to the rookie orientation, get in the rookie lane, then make a clean pass per the rules without scaring anyone, you should be allowed to run from the regular lanes next pass at Elmo. This is how it normally works.
pat this is no longer the case. rookies are rookies for the entire event now at el mirage. this was changed because the simple one-and-done tactic was not working and if people will remember back a few years ago it certainly seemed like we were having a record number of infractions. not all infractions were from newbies... many were but many were also 'veteran' racers. anyways, since inception of new program infractions have been dramatically decreased. the el mirage procedures give me and the event director (scta prez) the ability to 'graduate' people out of rookie status early on a case-by-case basis. in the four years that i've been doing rookie orientation i think i've done this maybe twice. the point of being a rookie is to get seat time, not set records. like i said, records take a back seat to learning how to do things right and being a good and safe driver/rider.
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METERMATCH, Are your plans to go out and set a record on your first run and be done with it?? Or are you in for the long haul??
The rules are set and we have no (at least not much) control over it. Go out in May and do the whole rookie thing, have fun make some friends, come back out in June with the ambilicle cord cut and set the record books on fire. We're still rookies and this will be our 4th year running, We are NO where near a record and dont see it happening anytime soon ($$) but we are having the time of our lives and have made friends with some of the best people in the world. GOOD LUCK!!
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Like Nathan said, if you show up, pass tech, pay attention to the rookie orientation, get in the rookie lane, then make a clean pass per the rules without scaring anyone, you should be allowed to run from the regular lanes next pass at Elmo. This is how it normally works.
pat this is no longer the case. rookies are rookies for the entire event now at el mirage. this was changed because the simple one-and-done tactic was not working and if people will remember back a few years ago it certainly seemed like we were having a record number of infractions. not all infractions were from newbies... many were but many were also 'veteran' racers. anyways, since inception of new program infractions have been dramatically decreased. the el mirage procedures give me and the event director (scta prez) the ability to 'graduate' people out of rookie status early on a case-by-case basis. in the four years that i've been doing rookie orientation i think i've done this maybe twice. the point of being a rookie is to get seat time, not set records. like i said, records take a back seat to learning how to do things right and being a good and safe driver/rider.
DOH!!!! Sorry.
Guess it's time for me to RTFM (Read The Friendly Manual), or STFU (won't spell that one). :-D
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Never mind, I won't say it.
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DOH!!!! Sorry.
no worries.
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Never mind, I won't say it.
Thanks.
:evil:
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My restating my question was not because because I didn't understand what Nathan said, it was because it appeared that others got off on a tangent from the original intent of my question.
And yes, Nathan, I have read the El Mirage procedures numerous times. And yes, I did read the part about race director and others have the ability to graduate people from rookie status early.
I was just pretty unsure as to how often the early graduation was occuring. My gut feeling was rarely. Your last post confirms my gut feel (3 people in 4 years).
Which goes back to my original post once again: Bonneville modified the rule, allowing runs under 150 mph to qualify. I was only interested in knowing if this might be extended to El Mirage. Some said no. Others said bring it up to the rules committee.
As for whether I am in this for the "long haul", that is hard for anyone to know. What I do know is there are perhaps 7 or 8 events a year to do this, minus weather delays, and conflicts with my drag racing. I suspect I can only make it to 3-4 events a year. I was just trying to speed things up a bit, and get a few record attempts under my belt before going to Bonneville.
Jeff
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If there was no point system there would be no minimums. No one cares if an antique Triumph sets a record at 34 miles an hour on an open record.
In the points system, he would pick up bonus points for the record. Then he would reset the record at 36, 38, 40, etc. Picking up bonus points every run. That's why you need competitive records.
That same experienced Triumph rider hardly needs a rookie run. Just behind him in line is the guy that drives an old Volkswagen on the street, just inherited a bunch of money, and bought a AA lakester. That's the guy the rookie rules are written for.
Every rookie run is watched under a magnifying glass because it only takes one over ambitious guy to ruin it for everyone. Leave the rookie runs alone they work fine.
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Over the years when I was the Chief timer I rejected a few rookie runs for a few reasons. This is in direct communication with the starter who signs the license upgrades. The system works and shouldn't be changed.
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Why fix something that isn't broken? Nathan and the rest of his crew should be complimented for what they do and have to put up with. Tony
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I started at B'ville---if you have a fairly fast ride that would be my suggestion --B'ville is a MUCH more forgiving venue than El M -- you NEED to KNOW YOU and your ride pretty well to run at El M, IMO-- YMMV
The tracks 3 & 4 can not be beat for the guys that run them and SHEPPARD rookies I have have extensive experience with my self with a formerly ill handing car and 2 rookies we lisc up to AA before we went to El M.
Those 2 tracks are one of the best things to happen to LSR in a long time for NuBs or new cars that one is getting acquainted with!!
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Like Maguromic says, why fix something that isn't broken. To me it sounds like a one and done is looking for a quick record.
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Stop beating around the bush and being so pc.
"Proposing a change to lock a record down or make it easier for a few to somehow be important is an insult to the vets and the past is all I'm saying..."
Who does the change protect and might as well give examples of how the process has defeated competitiors or scared away potentials over the years.
DW