Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: 38flattie on November 16, 2012, 02:57:32 PM
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I want to add piston pin oilers to the FlatCad.
What nozzles are you guys using, and where did you get them from?
Any pics would be appreciated too!
Thank you in advance!
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There's a very crafty builder in Arizona who shared this tip with me -
Wire welder tips.
A variety of sizes available.
If I ever convert over to a dry sump, that's what I'll use.
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Thanks Chris, I'll keep that in mind. I'll have to try and play with some, to see if I can get a good spray pattern out of them.
We're a little short on time, as usual, so I thought I'd try and see what everyone was using, so that I can get to the dyno and wind tunnel.
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There is an OEM part number for Duramax Diesel engines that's curved to clear a fully counterweighted crank. However, it's metric thread.
You should have a check valve to avoid low oil pressure at idle.
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This is how Rick Byrnes did oilers in the late '80s (and I suspect that it was developed by Roush for their Trans-Am turbo fours):
Edit: link to fullsize: http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Bonneville%20Merkur/Oilers.jpg (http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Bonneville%20Merkur/Oilers.jpg) (400 pixels height max allowable by the site would be not useable for this pic).
Don't know if it would work for you and would require a modicum of geometry. :mrgreen:
Mike
Source: Super Ford magazine, August 1992, page 27
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Buddy,
Call Frank and I'll bet he can give you some tips. We did ours in the shop with a bunch of brass fittings and 1/8 copper tube. Been workng for 3 years.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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how do the main journals compare to a bbc?
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how do the main journals compare to a bbc?
About 40% fewer of them. :|
I'm thinking Mike and Rick's idea is fine for a 5 main 4 cylinder, but I'd be cautious about plumbing sprinklers off of the mains when you're feeding 8 rod bearings through 3 mains. I'd think you'd almost need a separate pump, or at least a regulated circuit where you could maintain flow to the crank with no possibility of starving the reciprocating assembly.
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Is this the same principle as a stock flathead Ford rod? Phil
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The pin to piston fit can be tight sometimes. This means the pin does not float like it should in the piston and all movement is between the pin and the small end bearing. The picture shows lapping with toothpaste to get rid of a high spot that is making the pin fit overly tight. Now the pin will float and there will be less pin movement in the small end bushing.
The piston has a hole in it under the rings at the knife tip. The oil rings scrub down the oil on the cylinder walls during the down stroke. This pumps some oil into the hole and a passage carries it to the pin boss.
The rod shown catches oil flying about in the engine and directs it to the hole where it goes into the small end bushing.
My preference is to have dissimilar metals at the small end such as the steel pin in a non ferrous rod bushing. This is a personal thing. A lot of people do not do it. Also, paying attention to the bushing - pin clearance is critical. Careful parts selection and assembly can go a long way to prevent pin problems
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Toms Strawberry................mmmmmmmmmm, my 5 year old uses that, I steal some about once a week since it tastes so good!
Buddy, I did a quick search last night but could not find it but there is a good thread on here somewhere that goes into oilers in depth.
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Aim to get as much of the piston crown coverage as possible may vary from the top of stroke and and bottom on others--it should move across the crown as it goes up and down. This should maximize the amount of heat pulled out of the crown.
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For what it's worth, there are some VW liquid-cooled engines that use piston oilers. I beleive the ABA series 2.0 liter engines, and the 1.6 Turbo Diesels use squirters. They have built-in check valves as well. The ABA squirters only require one hole to be drilled into an oil galley - the diesel pieces need 2 holes. I have no idea whether it would be possible to retrofit these into a Cad flat engine.
Steve.
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if the the objective is to oil the piston pins--
EDM rifle drilling the rods sends oil from the rod journal up the con. rod to the pin bushings.
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Thanks everyone!
Lots of good ideas here! The point is twofold- get more oil to the pin, and cool the piston.
I was hoping to adapt a commercial oiler to our engine, but may do as the Salt Cat guys did, and just fab some up.
Chris, I think I can use just the one dry sump, and divert 10% or so of the oil that direction. It wouldn't be hard to preset the valve on the bench. Attached is a pic of the type valve I'll use on the tranny and rear diff, and I think I could use it for this purpose also.
I was hoping someone/s had some part numbers, so that I could order a few different types to play with, and flow test.
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38flattie:
You should be very careful about using the pictured valve to apportion oil flow to your engine. Its original purpose is to simply bleed off flow going to an oil cooler--a relatively low pressure and non-critical function. While true flow divider, or proportioning valves do exist, primarily for hydraulic systems, they are pressure compensated and considerably more sophisticated than this simple adjustable bypass valve.
This valve is little more than a tee in the line, and as such, the flow distribution will be largely determined by the relative resistances generated by the crank assembly (which may vary with rpm and temperature) and the piston oiler circuit. And, to the degree that the valve is throttled to try to influence the distribution, it will necessarily introduce a pressure drop in one branch or the other, or possibly both. You would be wise to do a lot of pressure monitoring while setting it up, and take steps to keep the adjustment from moving.
It seems like borrowing trouble.
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The late model Triumph twins have two oil pumps. One is for the high pressure lube to critical parts and the other is for the cooling oil and a few of the less important functions. That concept might be what you need.
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Buddy, you're scaring me! :-D
I agree with IO, I like Wobbly’s idea, and if you'll permit me the latitude of being adamant, here's why.
You're oiling 4 throws off of the center bearing, 2 off of the front and 2 off of the back. Half of your reciprocating assembly is dependent upon consistent oil volume and pressure to the center main bearing. Any variation in the volume and pressure, particularly to the center main, will give you trouble on the rod bearings.
The girdle obviously stabilized this area, but it's still the weak spot, simply because of the amount of oil the center main needs to deliver. If you ever encounter an oiling issue, I believe that's where it is going to happen. I don't know if you've inspected your caps yet, but if they're good, I would proceed with the assumption that you can't get by with less, rather than speculate that you could get by with a 10% drain down.
I think Wobbly has the best solution, and truth be told, if all an auxiliary oil system needs to do is shower the pin and the underside of the piston, it's not going to require all that big a pump. I'd speculate that you might even see enough hp increase in the cooling effect on the piston to mitigate any additional power drain a small oil pump might draw.
I don't know what kind of volume your oil pump is putting out, and as overbuilt as everything else on this car is, it's likely you have enough oil volume and pressure that my worry is unfounded. But on the other hand, this build is so far off into uncharted waters that my inclination would be to err on the side of caution.
Now STOP SCARING ME! :cheers:
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by pass pills or dill holes to feed your secondary oil needs
we played with drills and a pressure gauges on main and secondary systems until we knew we were ok at all operating temps.---no moving parts--NOZ pills are cheap and they are designed to be inserted inline.
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Buddy,
We used a small hydraulic pump w/releif pressure cut way back to pull oil out of a separate pickup in the pan and sent oil to a small manifold with 1/8 inch tubing for each piston. We made spray nozzles with 1/8 copper tubing to spray the tops of the rods and piston bottoms. Doing it this way we didn't compromise the engine oiling system. Has worked for several years now and helped eliminate piston failures. Here's an old picture from the outside. You can see the little pump on the lower left.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Though I am not seeing the kit on their website now, I used one put together by BLP. The jigs to drill are for common engines (SBC, BBC etc) but I drilled mine free hand. I had spoken with Mike Laws who was very helpful. Give him a call. The instructions are available.
Mike Laws .
www.blp.com
407-422-3094
800-627-1358
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Thanks guys- lots of good ideas here!
I talked to Barnes pumps Friday, and one option we have is replacing the pressure unit with a bigger volume unit, that will give us about 50% more oil. I'm going to do that for sure, but the second pump may still be the best option.
We want to go to vacuum in the engine, so I feel the piston oilers are necessary.
Jack, I'll give Mike a call tomorrow, so that I know all the options available to me! :cheers:
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Buddy, As mentioned by others why don't you tap into the oil galley? Its the best way and you could find off the shelf stuff for V8's easily. That's what I am doing on the GMC, though I have to make my own oilers. But if you must run a separate system you could "T" off of your return oil line and run a small valve to regulate the oil. I am using oil to somewhat control the harmonics on the valve sprigs of the GMC and use a small valve that the guys at Roush gave me, its only about 2" x 2".
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/springoiler.jpg)
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This definitely has me puzzling; a few years ago I connected my two bike engines at the primary drive, and fed both engines (with piston oilers as original fitment) from one pump in the front engine. I made an access port and drive adaptor to external run tge oil pump with my air ratchet. By the time the oil pump was at equivalent crank speed of 1500rpm, the single small pump was showing very high relief flow. Ok, makes sense because the engines were stopped...but...
Back in my line tech days I had a friends Corolla that was occasionally flickering the oil light at idle (for about 6 months). Usually a sender, but I found his oil pressure below 5 psi at idle (ok when slightly revved up). When I got the pan off, I found the rod jounal plug for #1 throw laying in the pan. Finding no damage on the bearing or journal, I screwed in the plug and it ran for years.
OK, trying to get to the point here...on our 3s-ge family engines the turbo has piston oilers and non-turbo didnt. They use the same oil pump, bearings, and clearances. So why, for example, does my 454 Chev go to 80psi at slightly above idle regardless of temp or age....from what I see, these engines all have excess pumping capacity even at low rpm.
Does this get worse at high rpm? This whole thread really has me curious. Thanks, JimL
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Here is a good article on this subject. http://hotrodenginetech.com/pin-oiler-prep/
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If u need checked orifices check out the following. http://www.okcc.com/PDF/checked%20orifices.pdf