Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Wade_Owens on November 05, 2012, 11:24:18 AM
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We are in the process of building a car for some of the land speed events. We are looking closely at the 4 cylinder stuff. I have attended the NHRA races and seen a few of these in Competition Elim. Are there people running these combos on the salt and the mile races, too. Would anybody have any ideas on what seems to work better? Are there any major pitfalls to these combos?
We have several ways we can go, the SBC route obviously, but, whats more interesting is using 1/2 of an SRT8 6.1. Those have crossbolted mains, cam tunnel, large diameter cam, nice ring packs etc, all from the factory.
If you have any pictures of these conversions, I would love to see them!
Any help is greatly appreciated.....
Thanks!
Wade Owens
wadeowens2007@yahoo.com
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Just curious, why V8?
Is it frontal area, displacement, or rules classification that requires 1/2 a V8?
IMO:
They have used half a 426 Hemi in import racing before it was outlawed. I probably can't find the blueprints anymore, but we worked on one.
A Cobalt engine is cheap, has factory race support (free info, large parts catalog), as does the SRT-4. We pushed the SRT-4 past 1200HP for drag racing.
BTW, all the late model SBC's I know of are 6-bolt, roller cam, etc. More race stuff is avail for the late SBC than the late model Dodge 'Hemi' (har), and cheaper, and more powerful.
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Which class(es) are you looking to run?
Steve
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A guy my dad used to partner with ran a 5 cylinder 392 Chrysler to make it into the E class. It actually ran pretty good when it wasn't trying to shake itself to death.
I think most guys who know V8's that want to run in a smaller displacement class do a 4-of-8 motor because they're working with something they already know and have. Why spend the time and money starting out with something else that you don't have any knowledge of? But then again, a lot of small displacement OEM motors are already pretty well set to make a lot of power.
FWIW, if I was going to build a crazy two liter it'd be a 4G63 and my three liter of choice would be a 2JZ.
Most the 4-of-8 motors I've seen are usually setup inline (not 2 & 2 in a vee) with bob weights to make up for the missing rod/piston assemblies. The rest of it seems pretty straight forward to me.
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Paul Madsen of the DRM team helped us develop a four cylinder hemi using one bank with 180 degree cam and crank. Made a ton of power on 70%, 12:71 300 mph in a coupe .
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We are putting a 360" motor in for now. The SRT engine I already have, and one of our friends has a good handle on the new hemi stuff.
We are building an 82-92 Camaro for the /GALT stuff. Just looking to complete a dream of running on the salt, sometime in the future. Nothing serious at first, going to spend minimal money to get to a good time.......
Any body have any pictures of these conversions?
Wade Owens
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Here's my favorite: http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4368.msg58248.html#msg58248 (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4368.msg58248.html#msg58248)
Mike
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... because they're working with something they already know and have...
That describes exactly my situation. But there won't be anything to show until a year (or two?) from now, since I'm barely started. Besides having some "stuff" (spare hemi head, extra aluminum block with a crack through one bank, many seasons of hard-earned M/T hemi knowledge, etc.), there's a couple other reasons: 1) the V8 block with only one head on it will fit (upright) without altering the lakester chassis, and 2) the power of my hemi V8 would offer more potential speed than I'd be comfortable with.
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McMeekin Bros (car 280) are currently running 1/2 a Ford V8 in the F/Alt class. IIRC Larsen and Cummins used a destroked V8 3 liter in their F/streamliner and 4 pistons in a full V8 block in the G/ car (bore and stroke to match, of course. Then you can do the Keith Turk/David Freiburger deal from couple years back when they toasted their Blown Big block ( don't remember displacement) some fashion or other deactivated 6 cylinders that were not working (not sure if just pulled rockers or what), made it run on 2 cylinders some how and went about 39mph on an open class record. One of those " the push truck was gonna beat the race car down the track deals". :cheers:
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which ever mannor you cannot disregard the balancing ability along with the odd ignition firing pulsations problems.
or go to a flat 180 type crank
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What about the 194 Pontiac slant four or the IH 152 or 196? - MT obviously had plenty of success with the 1/2 389 Pontiac way back when. As far as the International, from what I understand from a friend that has one, the cylinder heads are certainly not HP by any measure and they and very heavy and stout. Old school for sure regarding the technology.
Woz
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... What about the 194 Pontiac slant four...
Subject of this thread is "v8 block to 4 cyl conversion", so the Tempest slant-four warrants mention- seeing as PMD did "convert" the 389 V8 to a four (1961)! With all the aftermarket heads now available for Pontiacs, a VERY powerful four could be put together for LSR.
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Isn't cutting off one bank of a V8 or cutting a V8 in half to form a V4 fairly common to midget racers?
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Isn't cutting off one bank of a V8 or cutting a V8 in half to form a V4 fairly common to midget racers?
Used to be. Old technology now. It may still be used in some areas.
Pete
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FWIW, there was (possibly still is) a company called CESCO..... they made "flat" cranks for Chevy V-8s.... you would end up with an even fire cylinder bank on either side of a Chevy V8 this way.... it was how they made inline 4 cylinder engines using Chevy V8 blocks away back when....
I have seen the odd used Chevy flat crank for sale over the years..... they are probably not popular so cranks of this design may be sitting forgotten and collecting dust.....maybe put a "wanted" ad on here and/or on Racing Junk and see what comes up.
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If you Google SESCO midget you'll get all sorts of information on that engine. They were the engine that really started to put the Offy and V8 60 away.
I remember a flat crank being used in a SBC in Formula 5000. It sounded really neat, similar to an engine with 180 degree headers, but the harmonics were such that every time the car came back to the pits you had to do a full bolt check! I never heard of the four cylinder having the same problem.
Pete
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Pete:
"I remember a flat crank being used in a SBC in Formula 5000. It sounded really neat, similar to an engine with 180 degree headers, but the harmonics were such that every time the car came back to the pits you had to do a full bolt check! I never heard of the four cylinder having the same problem."
The first time a Cosworth DFV engine was tested in a Mirage sports racer, it shook all the needles off the gauges.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I have seen the odd used Chevy flat crank for sale over the years..... they are probably not popular so cranks of this design may be sitting forgotten and collecting dust.....maybe put a "wanted" ad on here and/or on Racing Junk and see what comes up.
If you are looking for a Chevy 180 degree crank, I have one I would sell. It is a bryant, 3.48 stroke, two piece oil seal,
2.100 rods as I remember but would have to look. Never used.
Tom G.
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I have seen the odd used Chevy flat crank for sale over the years..... they are probably not popular so cranks of this design may be sitting forgotten and collecting dust.....maybe put a "wanted" ad on here and/or on Racing Junk and see what comes up.
If you are looking for a Chevy 180 degree crank, I have one I would sell. It is a bryant, 3.48 stroke, two piece oil seal,
2.100 rods as I remember but would have to look. Never used.
Tom G.
Tom has a crank for sale.... this makes an almost instant 178 to 180 cu. in. Chevy 4 Cyl. engine (a 4.000" bore with an .030 or .060 overbore)..... use a SB2 head and some good efi.... and you have way over 400 hp!... OH - you DO need a special cam as well.... but, if you are getting a custom cam made, have them grind the NON used lobes so that all of the parts can be transferred to the opposite side of the block and your cam will be good for the other side too.
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Pete:
"I remember a flat crank being used in a SBC in Formula 5000. It sounded really neat, similar to an engine with 180 degree headers, but the harmonics were such that every time the car came back to the pits you had to do a full bolt check! I never heard of the four cylinder having the same problem."
The first time a Cosworth DFV engine was tested in a Mirage sports racer, it shook all the needles off the gauges.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
I recall a visit with Smokey Yunick.... in Daytona Beach, Feb 1974 - in his dyno room - we talked about 180degree cranks..... his words were - "They sound really nice when wound up and they do seem to make a few extra horsepower but when they are running at low speed (RPM) they sound like the pistons are swapping holes.....".... he also alluded to the inability to get a good balance job on them - at least so that the fasteners would not shear off the safety wire as they wound themselves out......
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I always listen closely to quotes from Smokey. But I hope that the shaking is somewhat more manageable in an inline four, since a one-eighty degree crank seems to be the only choice- if not wanting to deal with the odd-firing alternative crank choices.
Update on my V8-to-DOHC-four conversion: I finally tired of pencil-pushing and started making chips. Don't expect a build thread, though- progress is slow enough, without taking time to document it here.
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I talked to Bruce Crower several years ago and he had managed to build a flat crank that didn't shake your teeth out. He told me that they had a cosworth in the shop and he examined it because it was really smooth and had a flat crank. He reverse engineered it and found out the Brits used only half the bob weight to balance the crank. he tried the idea and it worked for him. He was thinking of making a flat crank to put in the flathead in his '34 street hot rod at the time. Bruce retired to his home shop and I never followed up as to what he did.
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I have two 180deg cranks. The SBC one I had destroked to 3.9". It is an up, down- down-up rod pin design with the corresponding roller cam. It's so old the roller is smaller then a 274 XE Comp hyd. steet cam. Didn't want to rev the shakers to high. Also have a 427 stroke BBC Crower and roller cam with an up, down, up, down rod pin arrangement. Hope to make time some day to make one of them a runner. I bought them cause I heard the engine that Gale Banks built for a TF dragster run with a turbo on it. Nothing in the auto world sounds as cool. (It could never get traction!)
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FWIW, there was (possibly still is) a company called CESCO..... they made "flat" cranks for Chevy V-8s.... you would end up with an even fire cylinder bank on either side of a Chevy V8 this way.... it was how they made inline 4 cylinder engines using Chevy V8 blocks away back when....
I have seen the odd used Chevy flat crank for sale over the years..... they are probably not popular so cranks of this design may be sitting forgotten and collecting dust.....maybe put a "wanted" ad on here and/or on Racing Junk and see what comes up.
SESCO Owner Ron Hoettels and partner in a rear engined car, Greg Nelson pitted next to us last year for speed week. He still loves building and raceing. He is one of the few people I know with a dyno in his house!
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Flat crank V8 war stories! Back in the mid 80s when Ascot was still running a guy ran a Keith Black hemi with a 180 crank in his sprint car. Sounded great! and went like the devil when the track was sticky. He was hot lapping and drove her into 3 real hard, lifted to get it set and when he picked up the throttle 7 rods and pistons plus the crank and the pan fell out on the track! Appears the aluminum hemi block didn't like the shaking either.
Rex
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I always listen closely to quotes from Smokey. But I hope that the shaking is somewhat more manageable in an inline four, since a one-eighty degree crank seems to be the only choice- if not wanting to deal with the odd-firing alternative crank choices.
Update on my V8-to-DOHC-four conversion: I finally tired of pencil-pushing and started making chips. Don't expect a build thread, though- progress is slow enough, without taking time to document it here.
I don't think that getting a good balance if used as a 4 banger engine will be a big problem as it will be an even fire engine in that configuration.
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Balancing a 4 banger is not easy, the pistons accelerate at different rates from the top of the bore to the bottom.
Therefore, the only solution is to lighten the piston assy's as much as possible and all the same.
The crank can be done, no bob-weights needed.
A damper helps on the snout to keep the fasteners in place in the car.
J
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I have a question regarding the Pontiac 194" or IH 196" half V-8's...If you were to install the 4 cylinder rotating assembly in a V8 block would it work and if so, would there be a manner in which to create some boost from the dead "left" side of the engine to enhance the functional "right" side? From an engineering standpoint not sure if it would be feasible to install a set of left side pistons and rods to just push air into a plenum. Obvious balance and check-valve issues come to mind but with weight not always being a major consideration??
I remember reading somewhere many years ago about a racer that broke a Tempest block and I seem to recall them running the slant four engine internals in a 389 block. I vaguely remember it having a header only on the right side and block off plates on the left side exhaust ports.
Woz
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Build a v-8 with pushrods out of 4 holes put dummy lifters in the dead holes so you don't loose oil pressure there will be about 2.5 to 3% loss loose the Ford 9" (4.5% loss) put in a GM 7.5 and you get to pick up 1% when you want to go to a 6 or a 8 just reinstall the push rods and lifters