Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Hellcat Customs on September 27, 2012, 01:33:13 PM
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Is there a way to petition SCTA to look at the data on helmets and allow ECE rated units to be used or accepted in the rule book?
Snell has a great history and I understand the great importance of Snell ratings on my helmets for the street, track, and the salt...
Thing is, ECE rated helmets aren't just safety tested to approve a design, they are batch tested. So since its not just a tested and approved design for the rating but tested through out the production of the helmet line I personally feel a little safer knowing a bean counter didn't alter things a bit to save a lil cash after the helmet design was approved....
Lots of really great helmet makers are also dumping Snell ratings for ECE because they say they produce a safer product that way. Because there are fewer and fewer companies with Snell ratings every year it also makes it tough on the wallet and tough finding a fit you like for budget racers.... With less to choose from every year and the few Snell approved helmets out there compared to ECE its harder and harder to find something you love south of the $600 mark.
If the expensive helmet protected you better or was made with better quality control standards I'd understand and would gladly spend the money for better protection... But I personally like ECE's batch testing idea and like knowing helmets before and after mine made the safety cut rather than getting a recall notice on my expensive helmet....
I just think in the interest of safety and bringing new racers to support SCTA and keep them thriving that the helmet tech has changed over the years and so should the safety rules.... I personally would have chose my ECE helmet over my Snell...the ECE is lighter and fits better, which on a bike at 100+ lighter and fitting better is safer cause your head isn't getting pushed around as much...
How do we try to update these rules to make the sport safe and easier for people in a budget to come play to?
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At SpeedWeek one of the Brits I've got his name, but it's out west with the trailer - I think) donated 8 or 9 ECE-rated helmets to the website. I intend to take one or two to inspection this year to see the story on ECE vs. Snell 2010.
The helmets are to be sold as a fundraiser for landracing.com. I hope they're acceptable -- it'd make selling them a whole heck of a lot easier. Most are basic black, and maybe there's a silver one in there.
we tried auctioning them on eBay - no response. So -- it's up to you to buy a helmet and help the website for your bonus benefit.
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I have a helmet sponsor that I could probably talk into donating some helmets for a few riders if SCTA/USFRA would allow them to run...
My ECE helmet also has air bladders in it so that you can pump it up to squish yer cheeks and make it so tight it can't come off...nice thing is should a crash occur the hospital deflates it and it comes of with a lil less effort...
If SCTA was willing to give it a shot I'm positive I can get my sponsor in board to help
Slim, give me a Web address for your auction and I'll push some folks yer way
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No auctions going on at present, and when we do have them -- they're right here on the Forum and are posted/treated like any other post. That is, when you click to "View any unread posts" the auction will show up as one such. Thanks for the offer, though. If I've misunderstood and you want to send some stuff to us to auction - it's 509 Dukes Road, Skandia Michigan 49885.
Thanks.
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Hellcat,
If you look at section 3.A.2, the car section of the rulebook states FIA(ECE) helmet specs. The motorcycle section has yet to be updated to the equivilant spec but is on the horizon.
To petition the rulebook changes the infomation is on page one - you have to read the complete book.
DW
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I'm the guy from England, we all had to buy Snell approved crash helmets to compete at this years Speedweek.
Nearly all of us have Arai crash helmets which are all not only ECE but also ACU gold approved, this is one of if not the highest safety rating for motorcycle competition in the world.
After a few emails to Tech I received an email that said to bring said email & "we would be good to go" we all decided not to bring our helmets but to buy Snell approved when we arrived in the USA, which was just as well as I was in bike tech when a European Arai was
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Yeah, David -- now I remember. You're the fellow that had his leathers run up the flagpole to flap gaily in the breeze - and dry out. How could I have forgot that?
Thanks for the helmets. We'll put them to good use. Did you ever present them to M/C inspection for their review? I'm going to do just that next week - and though I should ask what success you had.
Thanks again for the kind donation to landracing.com.
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Opps pressed the wrong key before i finished the post
The European Arai failed tech!!!
Personally I think the SCTA need to amend the Motorcycle helmet rules to allow European ECE ACU gold approved helmets to be used in competition.
It would not take a lot of research to see these standards are the equivelant if not higher than Snell & thus allow them to be approved for SCTA motorcycle competition
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Hellcat,
If you look at section 3.A.2, the car section of the rulebook states FIA(ECE) helmet specs. The motorcycle section has yet to be updated to the equivilant spec but is on the horizon.
To petition the rulebook changes the infomation is on page one - you have to read the complete book.
DW
Thanks for the info! As I understand it, because I'm not in a SCTA club I don't have much of a voice in the matter at the moment and a club would need to petition for the change... Am I correct in this understanding of the process?
I brought it here to the forum not to shake things up but to hopefully get someone with more pull to get the ECE rule added, and if its good for the cars should be good for everyone since you car guys go much faster than me:)
See I'm a rookie...this was my first year. My interest is to get more people hooked on these events so they don't die out... The only way to preserve this history and the salt is to get more people out there, safely out there... Rookies I know can be a pain to folks who've been the back bone to the sport, but rookies become vets and vets keep the sport going... If the ECE change is made I can bring at least 4 more riders out next year. Some for the 130 class, some for comp class and it will keep spreading and growing from there...
Just wanna see it more affordable, less trouble, and just as safe so one day my kid can feel what I felt out there...
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My only question would be why Arai (being a major player in helmet's) has not aproached Snell for approval of their products as it could vastly improve their World wide sales. The cost would be no more than any American manufacturer had to and continues to pay Snell.
Just my opinion, as a Biased (although Liberal) citizen of the United States.
I do not, however, mind if a few of you "sneaky" Brit's) steal a few of our records (as long as its not in MY CLASS).
:-D :-D :roll: :cheers: Bob
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Hellcat,
My apology, I forgot that tiny bit about being a member to propose a rule change.
If Jon will link up with me next week we can approach the m/c tech about the helmet ratings. It took me three years to get Lee Kennedy on board with the cars. He kept "forgetting" to send to rules committee.
DW
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Bob, I think we've got a disconnect between you and Arai. By the way, how do you pronounce that name? Is it like "awry" or "air-A" or "air-eye"?
But no matter how it's pronounced they do submit their helmets to Snell for test and certification. Go to www.snellfoundation.org and look for lists of helmets for all sorts of applications, etc. Here's what I found for Arai:
Exact match found
Standard Manufacturer Model Configuration Certified size(s)
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. ASTRO Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. AXCES Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Corsair-V Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL, XXXL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Profile Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL, XXXL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Quantum-J Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. QUANTUM-ST Full Face XS, M, L, XL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. RX-7GP Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. RX-7RC Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. RX-7RR5 Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. RX-Q Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL, XXXL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. SIGNET-Q Full Face XXS, XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Tour-Cross 2 Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Tour-X3 Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. V-Cross 3 Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. VECTOR Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. VECTOR-2 Full Face XXS, XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL, XXXL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. VECTOR-i Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. VX-Pro 3 Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. XD 3 Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2010 Arai Helmet, Ltd. XD 4 Full Face XXS, XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Astral-D1 Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Astral-X Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Astro-TR Full Face XXXS, XXS, XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Condor Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Corsair Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. GP-5W X-Bow Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. GP-5X Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Omni-J Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Profile Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL, XXXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Profile (Signet -II) Full Face XL, XXXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Profile Viper-GT Full Face XL, XXXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Quantum-2 Full Face XXXS, XXS, XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Rapide-Ov Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Rapide-SR Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. RX-7 Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. RX-7 Corsair Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. RX-7RC Full Face M, L
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. RX-7RR4 Full Face XS, S, M, L
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. RX-7RR5 Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Signet-II Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL, XXXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Tour-Cross Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Tour-Cross 3 Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Tour-X Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Vcross-3 Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Vector Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Viper-GT Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL, XXXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. VX-3 Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. VX-Pro Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. VX-Pro 3 Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. XD Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. XD-3 Full Face XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2005 Arai Helmet, Ltd. XD-Motard Full Face XS, S, L, XL, XXL
M2000 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Astro-T Full Face XS, S, S/M, M, L
M2000 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Astro-TR Full Face XS, S, S/M, M, L, XL, XXL
M2000 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Corsair Full Face XL, XXXL
M2000 Arai Helmet, Ltd. GT Full Face XXXS, XXS
M2000 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Quantum-2 Full Face XXXS, XXS, XS, S, M, L, XL, XXL
M2000 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Rapide-OR Full Face L, XL, XXL
M2000 Arai Helmet, Ltd. RX-7 Corsair Full Face XL, XXXL
M2000 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Signet GT Full Face XXXS, XXS
M2000 Arai Helmet, Ltd. Super/l Full Face XS, S
No lack of M2010 helmets from Arai.
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They do have an assortment of helmets that are Snell... They also cost a ton and don't always fit well. So as a year round rider who replaces his lid yearly its crazy for myself and others I personally ride with to buy one every year.
The interesting thing is when I drag race, the ECE goes through tech...but if there is a scuff or scratch on the helmet, Snell or ECE, it fails tech. I have to believe that the drag strip with barrier walls etc would cause more impact damage than the salt.
I know many riders aren't maybe as safety oriented as my group may be but we buy good ECE helmets because we know they are batch tested, they will handle impact and they are cheap enough we can afford to replace them yearly as recommended... If law said I had to only run Snell, many of us couldn't afford a new lid every year at 600 a pop.... I'd personally like to run a new lid yearly than have the same lid for 5 years if I have to hit the ground.
Dunno if I mentioned this before, I've never had a ECE helmet recalled because of flaws...I've had 2 Snell helmets recalled though
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Hellcat,
My apology, I forgot that tiny bit about being a member to propose a rule change.
If Jon will link up with me next week we can approach the m/c tech about the helmet ratings. It took me three years to get Lee Kennedy on board with the cars. He kept "forgetting" to send to rules committee.
DW
Thanks so much... I really appreciate you stepping up for the motorcycle field. Custom leathers no one has issue with but the helmet thing keeps some at home...
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Dan:
I'll find you next week and we can go visit Van Butler and Matt Shuss abut the motorcycle helmet issue. I looked at the 3.A.2 paragraph - and now see why I'd missed it in earlier look-throughs of the book. It says "FIA", not "FIA(ECE)", and my brain, looking for ECE ignored the FIA. Oh, well -- it doesn't matter now - and maybe we can get the ball rolling towards getting more motorcycle helmet safety ratings accepted. Thanks for the invitation.
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You guys are all great...thanks for chatting about this and going to bat for the change! I assure you it will help get more entries in the door and like I said I'd be happy to get some helmets to donate...
Slim lemme know where to bid, on the existing helmets...I'll direct folks that way to support your cause...heck I'll bid myself
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Will the SCTA recogise the FIA ? with regards ECE crash helmets or will it be it my way or the highway?
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I have faith the SCTA will do what they can to keep racers safe while helping new racers come in... If the helmet change helps I'm sure they will make it happen. Have faith.
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"Faith" in the SCTA ?..... Ask Glen Barrett about that........
No, I won't let that issue rest, on any thread...
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I am very new... And I've heard good and bad stories. I try to remain open minded either way.
Heck I was told the cart guys don't care for the bike guys, and honesty I had nothing but great dealings with SCTA and USFRA folks alike... Honestly most of the motorcycle field would hardly talk but the car folks chatted quite often...
I'm sure there are some tough stories. I just try to approach everything with a "try to better things for everyone"mindset... If someone stands against my ideas I'll just pursue it in another fashion;) clubs are typically like billiards, all about how you work the angles.
So I'll keep faith in SCTA, even if it takes a bit
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I have faith Hellcat, but sometimes clubs like it kept just so. I have no problem with the SCTA rules, they just need to in my opinion be brought upto date with regards crash helmet safety tags they need to see it ain't just Snell standards
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Oh no , the motorcycle helmet thing
After a few emails to Tech I received an email that said to bring said email & "we would be good to go" we all decided not to bring our helmets but to buy Snell approved when we arrived in the USA, which was just as well as I was in bike tech when a European Arai was
Yep
I was in tech then as well. Alright, I was in tech all week
The suggestion has been put up that more than just the Snell standard be put in the book
If you look at the FIM 2012 rules, page 67
01.70 RECOGNISED INTERNATIONAL HELMET APPROVAL MARKS
• Europe ECE 22-05 (P ou J)
• Japan JIS T 8133: 2007
• USA SNELL M 2010
(see International Helmet Standards in diagram section)
Sorry I didn't include the pictures
G
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Checking back in on the thread...
How did the chat go about the issue? Heard through the grapevine that apparently the folks in this thread weren't the only ones suggesting a possible regulation change...so that's very positive.
Did anyone try to run a ECE at World Finals?
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We've just returned from WF and I'm bushed, so won't go into detail at this time. Soon, though. . .
I had a nice set of chats with both Van Butler and Matt Shuss in re the subject of Snell and ECE ratings, and now I've got more of an idea of the issues being discussed between the two - and those keeping SCTA from immediately accepting ECE ratings as well as Snell. I'll mention one thing at this point, and that a good part of the hassle is that ECE isn't good at responding to SCTA requests for information - they don't do much in response at all.
If you arrive at an SCTA event with an ECE 2010 or newer helmet you've got a good chance to get it approved. Their standards change more often than Snell (Snell is 5 years, ECE is less and the ECE 2005 versions are already outdated by improvements). Don't expect it to be a breeze-through thing with that ECE 2010 helmet - but your chances of winning the discussion are good. That's all I'll say for now. But I will try to get Matt to make a detailed response here so we can have a better idea of what's what along these lines, okay? Deep enough for now.
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Awesome slim! Thanks so much for working it...
If they want crash test info or info on the ECE testing I can probably get that from the development and design team for my helmet sponsor...I'm sure even if ECE isn't getting back that the factory building our helmets would provide the info they have to design for to get approval from ECE
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Matt sent me an email with some information -- but I'm at work now and can't get this 'puter to copy and paste. I'll do that when I'm at home tonight. In the meantime what he says is that we know Snell ratings are specifically for racing applications while ECE and even DOT are (apparently) oriented toward street riding. He asked the Auto Cycle Union for information on their "Gold Sticker" rating -- but never got any kind of reply.
The ECE22.05 data are available to him - and us - but I guess it's pretty danged technical and will take more effort to understand than a simple read-through can offer. He says he'll find someone that is qualified to try to compare ECE and Snell.
There - a precis, using my words, of what Matt Shuss (SCTA m/c technical guru) has to say about the helmet issue. I'll summarise what he said - by saying - They're working on it - really.
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I got an email from Ellen Wilkinson (USFRA) today regarding ECE helmets. I'll copy and paste it here. Remember -- I'm just the messenger and don't have any further details at this point, so I won't be able to offer any in-depth details about the rule change that is noted, okay?
Tom Evans wrote to Ellen, and here's what he said:
"Ellen, we voted last Friday night at the SCTA board meeting to allow ECE helmets.
Tom Evans, SCTA Motorcycle Inspector Emeritus"
Okay. Having said and seen that -- next I need to find out the rules on manufacture/inspection rating date for ECE. If you read a few posts back you'll see where I mentioned that I had learned ECE date ratings are for shorter periods of time than the Snell Foundation's 5 year. I'll see what I can find out -- and if you do and get it here first -- great. Thanks.
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Truly awesome....both our riders this year will now get the ece helmets we wanted! This hopefully will coax more motorcycles to lsr and will allow them to have new lids yearly! Thanks for the update!
The ece number for certification will be great for those of us buying soon.
Thanks again bud!