Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA Rules Questions => Topic started by: LittleLiner on July 25, 2012, 12:49:46 AM
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Looking through the ECTA web site I noticed that a Mustang holds the Wilmington records in A, B, C, and D/GT. (car #9340)
Why is that car not classed in the Production sedan classes per ECTA rule book section 5.E?
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Speculation -
If it's an early Shelby GT350, it would only have 2 seats.
Again, speculation . . .
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Only if its a 1965 Shelby. Tony
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The Mustang is a factory built two seater street/track car. Over 500 were produced. It has a x-brace across the back seat area, also installed by the factory.The competitor had a rollbar installed to allow it to run to 175mph.
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Just ramblin', I'm a cheby guy:
The roadrace version of the Mustang about year 2000?, had 2 seats, but only 300 were made IIRC. These were street legal. Cobra-R?
There are new Mustangs for sale today that have 2 seats, but don't have VIN, just P/N, not for use on public highways. No idea how many. FR500?
But all Mustangs are built on a 4 seat chassis AFAIK. It's like saying the Camaro is 2 seater because they make some race versions without back seats. Yup, there are 3 P/N's you can order for full race 2012 Camaro. I think it has 1 seat?
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That car is a new BOSS 302 Laguna Seca edition with factory rear seat delete.
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That car is a new BOSS 302 Laguna Seca edition with factory rear seat delete.
Street legal! Very cool! Kinda a waste to drive it in a straight line, but very sweet.
The dragracing model isn't street legal.
1500 Laguna's will be made.
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Leaving out the back seat makes it more aero and moves it to GT?
Could a 57 Chevy business coupe run GT, or Mod. Sports with headlight covers?
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Also, I noticed SS (fuel injected cars) setting records in RS (carb cars), or it may be vise versa. I don't know what's under the hood. If RS can run in SS or SS run in RS, why not just combine the two? :-)
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I am not sure, but I do not think Fuel injection and carburation are the only determining factors for RS vs SS...
But then again, I do not run in either class !!
Charles
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The Mustang is a factory built two seater street/track car. Over 500 were produced. It has a x-brace across the back seat area, also installed by the factory.The competitor had a rollbar installed to allow it to run to 175mph.
direct quote from ECTA rule book, page 52, section 5.E Production, middle of second paragraph. . . . .
"If the car was produced and sold with 2 seats in some models and 4 seats (including jump seats) on other models, the car will be classified as a Coupe or Sedan. Examples include Honda CRX, Ford Mustang GT 350's, Porsche, Nissan 2+2, etc."
It's a Mustang. Most Mustangs have 4 seats, a few (like the one in question) have 2 seats. Either way, the rules seem to imply that it is not a GT class car . . . . .
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If the Mustang didn't have the factory x covering the back, we would have it moved out of GT.
SS is for fuel injected cars...if you see it in RS, protest it or tell one of the four track officials so we can correct it. Often a new racer doesn't understand the rules or was given bad info.
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Any day you learn something new is a good day! 8-)
(http://streetlegaltv.com/files/2010/08/12MustangBoss302_34.jpg)
Thanks, Joe!
Mike
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That brace and and carpets are 2500.00 if you try to buy them. I wanted them bad for my Mustang. Until I saw the price that is. Ill just have to leave that for the rich Boss owners.
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. . . but . . . please explain this . . .
"If the car was produced and sold with 2 seats in some models and 4 seats (including jump seats) on other models, the car will be classified as a Coupe or Sedan. Examples include Honda CRX, Ford Mustang GT 350's, Porsche, Nissan 2+2, etc."
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Can open - worms everywhere.
It's not a particularly tidy class, for either SCTA or ECTA. It was easier when sports cars were sports cars - two seats, two doors - but there were always questions.
I believe the GT class was intended for vehicles marketed as sports cars.
Example - stated earlier - the '65 GT350. Sold and marketed as a sports car. Official builder was Shelby, and it was sold as a two seater. They were Shelby Mustang GT 350's, not Ford Mustang GT 350's.
The Mk I Midget had a jump seat option. That ended in 1964 when they grew door handles and lost the Conestoga wagon/circus tent top arrangement. I opted for a '71, but I suspect if somebody made a stink about running a '63 Midget, an argument could be made that it needs to run in Coup/Sedan.
The Karman Ghia is another odd one - the convertible seats 2, the coupe seats 4 - technically.
MGB/MGB-GT, Jaguar XKE - same story. Even the Austin Healey 3000 was available as a 2+2. I would classify these as GT's because they are all based on 2 seat sports cars, not the other way around.
The 911? Those aren’t seats, those are luggage pads with retaining straps, but it has to run coupe?
I always wondered about the AMX, myself. American Motors advertised it and sold it as a sports car, clearly based on the Javelin, but the chassis was shortened.
I don't think a '57 Chevy business coupe could run GT - it had seating for three.
So did the '57 T-Bird.
The Geo Metro convertible is a two seater, but it runs coupe.
It's an odd class, and the rules have received so many bandages over the years, due in part to the different ways cars are made today, that there isn't a clear cut, obvious definition.
Joe says the Laguna is a GT.
I'm calling my Midget a GT, under the "comfortable, high-speed driving" clause.
Yup - it's a weird class.
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I opened this thread with a hunch that this might just have been one of those deals where the racer made an assumption about class and it sliped by. However, Joe's answer indicated to me that a judgement was made based on facts about how this model Mustang is marketed and equiped and that it better fit in GT than in Production Coupe and Sedan. I am satisfied with that. I think the simple answer is "If Joe says it is a GT then it is a GT". And I say that with all respect.
Milwaukee Midget's comments are right on about the issues of determning what cars do and do not fit in GT or Coupe/Sedan.
Last year (or the year before) SCTA changed the wording about what was and what was not a coupe/sedan. (In general ECTA tries to echo the SCTA rules whenever possible.) I suspect the change was to clarify the issue. Maybe it had something to do with a honda CRX (generally considered a two seater) that was running as a coupe/sedan. As I recall it had something to do with the fact that Honda apparently offered the CRX as a 4 seater in some international markets. Perhaps someone with more accurate knowledge of the details can speakup about this.
Now with the release of the 2012 SCTA rules we see that imports may run in F/Classic classes. What does that mean with the re-definition of the GT vs Coupe/Sedan rules? Well, is is now possible to run a Porche 911 (up through model year 1981) as a Classic category car.
Another grey area in GT is the inclusion of Factory Five Cobras in GT. While I can see the logic of doing that, I wonder how the engine swap rule in GT will apply to cars built by outfits like Factory Five. The rule says that swaps are allowed as long as they were originally used in an automobile produced by the same manufacturer. (So you could put a Caddy Northstar V8 in a Fiero and it would be OK in GT)
So with Factory Five what is an engine "produced by the same manufacturer"? Remember Factory Five also makes other models and some of those models are designed to use Chevrolet engines and next year they will offer a car (the 818) that has Subaru running gear. Does this mean that a Factory Five Cobra can run a Corvette V8 or a Subaru Flat Four engine swap and still be legal in GT?
It is something of a mess to sort through. There are so many cars that straddle the line between GT and Coupe/Sedan that I fear there is no simple answer.
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Ok, looks like that car is now and for evermore a GT.