Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: SPARKY on July 21, 2012, 11:57:13 PM
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HELP---I need inspiring---Anyone have any picts of MANUAL chute actuators???? I do not like what my weak age inhibited brain is conjuring uppp post please
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HELP---I need inspiring---Anyone have any picts of MANUAL chute actuators???? I do not like what my weak age inhibited brain is conjuring uppp post please
Normal fashion is on the top of the rollcage as a lever. You pull it towards you, and it pulls the cable. Where the pivot point is controls how much cable it will move, and how much force.
I did it ghetto on my truck. It's on the right side of the aluminum seat, and I pull upwards, right in line with the fire bottles, but a big handle. If something nasty occurs, I start from dash and move back step by step:
Hit the kill. Move down, Pop neutral. Something is still wrong, move down to the chute, something still wrong, move down and hit the engine bottle (this also forces engine shutoff in my case), if it still doesn't work, I move down and hit the last handle which is the cab bottle. If that doesn't work, I use the ejection seat.
Note to self, put in sunroof...
A high quality teflon coated cable with few bends, all mild is the trick for me. It can take a lot of effort to slide 16 feet of cable.
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I personally wouldn't put anything on top of the cage and in front of me. In a violent incident the unexpected can happen, and your just asking for a lobotomy. I would do something like the JCB liner and others have done and put them on the side with a low friction morse cable. Tony
Picture is from the JCB World Fastest Diesel build book.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/release2jpg.jpg)
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If you just have a halo, yeah, you don't have room.
And something I did not consider, since we wear bracelets, you could not reach a normal front hoop cage lever anyhow.
I think that's why I put them on the seat instead.
The lever that came with my $$$ Shroud chute came with a very small and cheezy lever. With thick gloves, it was useless.
Yup, a cage setup is a lot different than a halo. You have lots of room to mount things.
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What would be really cool is to steal the foot parking brake out of a truck and mount it. Your hands can get real busy, but your left foot is ain't doing a lot in an emergency. The parking brake cable is stout, and your foot is powerful.
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Thats what Burkland suggested---but my foot box is very narrow and its pretty busy already ---thanks for the JCB photos Tony, I am working with a central pivot with one coming back for primary and both forward for seconday, but have reservations---my levers WILL not be that spiffy looking though
Pls keep the photos and thought coming guys---thanks sparky
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This is the chute release and fire control setup on the new 757 camaro (as of 2010 Mike Cook Shootout) right after they built it.
Larry
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This is the chute release handle used in the Tom Thumb special (2010)
Larry
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Fuel shutdown and chute pull ring left side of cockpit on roadster 652 (2009)
Nice setup from a biomechanical point of view one motion with the left hand can push the fuel shut off, and grab the ring and pull.
Larry
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Think of all of the emergency possibilities. On fire, smoke everywhere, spinning . . .
You want something that you can hit without looking or thinking. Big, obvious and a natural motion with no obstructions.
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Here are the chute and fire controls on the C FALT Pontiac 7878 (since renumbered) in 2007.
Larry
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Sparky, I used a brake lever off of one of my brother's old motorcycles. I was able to bend it to the shape I needed. It is stout enough to retain its' shape in normal use but can deform on impact. I figure this will keep it from turning into a weapon in case of an incident. :cheers: Wayno
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Here is the chute release in the B/GCALT pontiac 363 (world of speed 2007)
Nice big grab ring!
Also it is placed near the center of the car which is helpful if the car is spinning or tumbling, G forces less likely to keep you from being able to reach it.
Larry
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As seen in this shot my ignition and fuel shut offs areforward and down from the 'chute lever for a clean sweep. Wayno
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Take look at the Marlo Treit build thread. Knobs and handles are pieces of Mammoth tusk. I double dog dare you to out trick that one.
DW
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Being a bike I have to be able to pull my chutes without taking my hands from the bars.
Still tossing up between a second pair of clutch/brake type levers set above the clutch and brake or a pair of old school 10 speed pushbike gear changes to work with my thumbs.
Have the bits for both and think I will end up with the thumbs releases.
Not much help to you sorry Sparky but may help a bike person that finds this topic.
Cheers
Jon
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Take look at the Marlo Treit build thread. Knobs and handles are pieces of Mammoth tusk. I double dog dare you to out trick that one.
DW
How about http://alphaclassics.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_34_38&products_id=552 ? Fossilized walrus penis bone. No, really.
We've drifted a bit, but thanks for the thread - it made me think. . . .
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We considered it for our in-car raising devises -- "Jack on? Jack Off?"
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Smith, I know you didn't ask for input on pneumatic systems BUT....
As I was teaching my boys how to drive the race car one of the issues for me was them taking their hand off the steering wheel. I know all us older guys grew up driving stick shifts and running at the grudge night drags. Well not so for my kids. Any way the button on the right hand side of the steering wheel is for the shifter. The left hand button goes to a simple servo that pulls the cable to the 'chute. It's worked everytime since the car was new in 2008. The one time it didn't work was due to a packing error. There is also a manuel pull right in the bottom center of the steering wheel. I know for us that has kept us from spining twice as the "pucker" factor had the 'chute out ounce each at Bonneville & El Mirage as the kid was learning how hard to get with the program at different vinues.
The first picture shows the steering wheel.
The second circles in yellow is the pull servo. The red arrow is the Co2 line. The blue arrow is the backup pull cable.
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Mike, thanks for sharing-- the issues are all that have been stated-- we want controls close to the wheel-- but not snag getting out or poke in an upset thanks for all who have posted-- we may have to go with an air system---sure don't want to-- we made the driver area tighter in the pursuit of safety now we are living with the consequences.
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Sparky, any reason you want manual only? You know I am a firm believer in hands on wheel chute release. The backup is manual as required these days, ours has been this way since Johnboy spun and couldn't get to the chute fast enough, 20 years or so. This is what saved me from rolling when the car spun in 2000 at 220+, tracks showed only the right rear wheel was still on the ground when the chute hit and slammed the front of the car back to the ground 500 ft from where the incident started. The view from the little car with the cockpit 5 feet in the air and moving sideways front end above me is nothing I want to see ever again. :-o
The silver guarded button at the left top of the wheel is chute, the button under it is shift, the red cross handle on right next to the up/down shifter selector is the manual pull.
The actuator is a GM door locker, the cable attached is the manual portion, if the electric fails, then the backup is cable.
electric actuated pic
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Back in 1968 I built a air release chute system for my dragster. A small air tank, a Bimba cylinder and a cable attached to the pack. The cylinder was mounted in a piece of stainless tubing that was slotted for a manual over ride. The air supply was plumbed to the rod end of the cylinder and a push button switch was mounted on the steering wheel. It never failed and the over ride was tested as well. This was a Don Long chassis and had a foot and hand brake linked together as well. :cheers:
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Just rambling and only part related:
First, I'm a play racer, I do it for fun, but I like winning when I race.
A successful top fuel drag racer told me this (champion roadracer had told me something similar):
You have 2 parts of your brain, the automatic part, and the decision part.
The decision part must have as little to do as possible if you want it to react quickly and correctly. When it's working right, everything seems to go in slow motion. When it's overloaded, everything seems to happen too fast.
So the goal is to put as much of your seat time into the Automatic part of the brain. If you have to think to deploy your chute, you're not going to drive as well. And this applies to all the driving tasks. If they are not automatic, they are slowing down the critical decision part.
Driver Comfort - When you are uncomfortable it uses your Decision part to send it's input. It's very difficult to keep this part fully automatic, perhaps impossible. You try to keep it down as low as possible. The more comfortable you are, the quicker and better the Decision part does it's job.
Cliff Notes - Put the chute release somewhere where you don't have to think about it, or move very much to do it. You need to get the chute deploy into the automatic part somehow.
I'll admit I don't have it stored there for the "end of run" deploy. I've worked on the "Danger" part instead. When I thought I was on fire, I did 1, 2, 3 and waited to see flames. Never got to 4 or five.
But I'm not that experienced with LSR, especially zero seat time in anything except something the size of the Short Bus that took me to school ... :D
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Chute handles and fuel shutoff are mounted right of driver on our 222 Camaro. fuel shutoff is on longer lever
and just forward of dual chute levers with primary cute lever adjusted behind 2nd lever to avoid hitting both
at same time. Motion is foward and we can hit chute and fuel at same time.
JL222
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DOH!!! Too late to edit my post.
With our truck and trans:
The engine can run full blast with no fuel if it hurts the turbo. Killing power and fuel will have no effect.
Our transmission freewheels with the engine off, but neutral helps if the trans is the issue.
Hence my strange emergency shutdown sequence. Cars with gas engines or manual type transmissions might be safer for a different order.
Trivia - Yes, a diesel engine will run with no fuel at all. If the turbo seal to the compressor fails, and the boost is less than the oil pressure, 250F+ oil is atomized into the inlet track, and the engine will run at max effort until the oil sump is dry, obviously this is really dangerous and a serious fire hazard. You might think gasoline or methanol is bad-arse, but once you get engine oil / diesel lit, the odds of your fire system working are slim. There are two fixes: You either shoot foam or halon into the intake tract (halon for me), or you put a guillotine air cutoff on the engine. These are sold by companies that deal with oil field safety in mind. If there is a natural gas leak in an oil field, you can't kill the engine. It will breath the gas and run off it. This is a requirement for diesel truck/tractor competition as well, and some of the race shops have them as well. IIRC, I put in a suggestion about this, but it was not used.
Why didn't I use a cutoff? I did at first, it cost $800. The second event I ran it at, it lost a screw, and shut me down during the pass. No more of that BS.
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When I was a little kid my Dad worked at Ringsby Truck lines in the shop.
They had a runaway diesel engine on a test stand, which he was right next to, he hit the emergency shut down and it ate the butterfly valve that was supposed to kill the air flow. He was in a bad spot (only exit involved jumping across a grease pit) so he took the next best option and fed the engine double handfulls of shop rags until it choked.
He got a pat on the head from the shop foreman for his quick thinking.
Larry
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Sparky, here is what I made for the #787 Studebaker, It always worked great and I never had any problem moving the right hand away from the steering wheel, maybe it was because I didn't go very fast.
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We made an effort to make everything a PULL. Fuel shut-off, fire bottles, chute. Just grab anything and pull -- even if you're not sure what it is. We think there's some merit there.
And, yes, I know we should all rehearse it -- but in a panic . . .
Stan
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Well thanks to SS#1 and Mike LaFevers I will be going to a air cyl for primary chute--I have come full circle---back to the oringanal plan---the manual back up wll be a LANYARD that runs by the wheel on either side right for the primary chute and left for the seondary!!! it will be detachable and will be an"ATTTACH" before flight!!!!
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it will be detachable and will be an"ATTTACH" before flight!!!!
Could you use a small motorcycle clutch cable or compression release handle on or near the steering wheel? :?
Sparky, think I would just go for the high speed taxi and skip the flight! :cheers:
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I am with Stan on this one... anything that is manual activation in my car is PULL...
Not push...
Also in ORDER...
Front pull is for engine fire system = front of car
Middle pull is for cabin fire system = middle of car
Back Pull is Chute release = in back of car..
my mind is simple and so is the layout in my car ..
just my thoughts
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Back to this subject. Sparky, what kind of handle will your lanyard have?
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its a work in progress will know soon :-P
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Here is a pic of my old chute release lever.
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/216022_1017776920735_8405_n.jpg)
My new chute is integrated with the clutch lever, pull the chute and it disengages (and locks open) the clutch.
~JH
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Someone will protest the simplicity................
FREUD
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Protest #1: Waste of perfectly good calipers! :-D
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Dang... for years my dad had me convinced that was a " metric" wrench.
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lol
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They're usually metric on one side and imperial on the other. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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this is my version of a chute handle
it is pull to deploy
close (but not too close) to my right hand as i hold the steering wheel
up in my peripheral field of forward vision vision
in line with master switch and gear shift
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Does anyone have an air interupt push button that has work well for them for my primariary chute I have build some primative bell cranks to test my system---an article orbuild picts of some thanks again for the coaching guys the final versions will be influnced heavily by what we are seeing here---keep the post coming and thanks for sharing
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Try Bimba or Clippard, both products are great.
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My car uses Clippard.
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Thanks Guys!!
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Mike.....Thanks for your insight and company in Tech this year. I learned quite a bit working with you. I am not familiar with the Clippard system...Do you have a link I could zip on to?
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Clippard makes all kinds of air "stuff"
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...A high quality teflon coated cable with few bends, all mild is the trick for me. It can take a lot of effort to slide 16 feet of cable.
I watched my brother, an experienced skydiver, pack his chute. !0 lbs of potatoes in a 5 lb bag, then a spring-loaded pilot chute which increased bag load, then climbing on his knees to crush bag so he could pull the flap holes over the posts on opposing flaps, which had a very flat taper to ensure flap grommets would slide off, so he could insert several pins through the posts. Pins of course were on the ripcord. Looked like a lot of force would be required to get pins to slide out of posts due to flat taper and high load. So I asked if it wasn't hard to pull. His exact words: "I never noticed." I guess when it's time for a chute, it's time for a chute.
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If you're running teflon coated cables or any cables for that matter, past the engine, protect them from fire & impact from blow ups.
You need all that crap to work when the "Oh $hit" moment pops up.
Sid.
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my cables are inside the frame tubes
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Sparky - In reply 40 you mention an "air interupt push button". I'm not familiar with that teminology being somewhat unfamiliar with pneumatic controls. I've also heard the term in association with high voltage switch gear, another unfamilar area.
Sounds to me like a control that releases the pressure in a pneumatic system thereby taking the system from the "run state" to the "stop" state. Same as the old Westinghouse air brake system that applies brakes when the air pressure is released from the system. Is this what you were talking about? Ed Weldon
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Ed, maybe I miss applied a term, between CRS and not being an engineer I do that a LOT--
what I was refering to is a push button switch/valve that is in a pressured line from the supply to the actuator cyl. When you push it down it lets the pressure pass through to the actuator cyl.; but when you release the button it stops the air from passing the switch/valve and there would then be no pressure on the cyl.,
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Thanks. Sparky,
Two independent systems for the chute control with one on the steering wheel sure sounds like the way to go along with cable/line enclosures to minimize the damage from separate mechanical failure or fire.
It'll take some thoughtful design for the actuator mechanism next to the chute itself. For me the rear engine character of my project also demands that the system be ready to work reliably in an alcohol or gasoline fire environment. The question that I see is the relative merits of electrical vs pneumatic control for the actuator on the steering wheel.
Ed Weldon