Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: metermatch on June 30, 2012, 01:37:09 PM
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I have a few tech questions about the engine modifications allowed in
the Production Category, Coupe and Sedan class in my case:
The rule book says unlimited cams, induction system, and ignition.
It is my understanding that an alternator does not need to be run.
But, do I need to use the factory motor driven water pump and oil pump/wet sump oil system?
Could I use a separate electric water pump, and remove the stock engine
driven water pump?
On the oil system, could I replace the stock wet sump system with a dry
sump system? If a dry sump is allowed, could I have the oil
pump/vacuum pump powered by something other than the motor?
Thank You all for any insight,
Jeff
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Yes you can do all those things.
Have fun!
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and any exhaust, didn't see that on your list... the only thing that needs to be production is the outside body...
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So from what you have said here, as well as what I read from the rule
book regarding "engine swap" definition, as well as the "production
category" rules, It is correct to make the following statements:
The "production category" engine needs to be:
1) The engine production family for the vehicle used. Example: if car
came with small block Chevy, anything that you could stuff in a small
block Chevy size dimension block/heads is OK.
2) Any manufacturer block can be used, as long as it is the same
dimensions as stock, same material, and all OEM parts could be bolted
on or to it in the same location.
3) Any head can be used, as long as it is the same dimensions as stock,
same material, and all OEM parts could be bolted on or to it in the
same location. It must have the same number of valves, and same port
configuration. The number of valves is obvious, but I guess same port
configuration means you couldn't take a SB Chevy head and turn it into
a 426 Hemi head? But any porting of a factory type head is OK?
4) As far as the rest of the engine parts, ANYTHING goes? Any crank,
rods, pistons, valve train, intake, fuel injection, carbs, ignition,
oil system, cooling system, exhaust, oil pan, timing cover, valve
cover, and cam. As long as the OEM parts could bolt back on to the
block and heads used, and as long as my parts used would drop right in
a OEM block and heads?
5) The engine does NOT need to drive any of its' normal auxilliaries,
meaning it does not need to drive the alternator, oil pump/oil system,
vacuum pump, water pump, or fuel pump. The only thing the engine would
need to power from the combustion process is turn the crankshaft and
its' valve train and distributor, and send power to the transmission.
Clearly, I couldn't just add a big electric motor to the crank to help
power the car. (unless hybrid class), but I was concerned that by
removing the parasitic drag of the oil, water, and fuel pumps, that I
was breaking a production class rule, taking away drag that a "production"
engine normally needs to drive. Or that by using an external vacuum pump,
that I was somehow "adding" power to the motor, somewhat like adding an
electric motor to the crank.
Perhaps the answer to my question seems pretty obvious, but I am not sure if
the rules work by allowing me to only do what the rules SAY I can do, as
opposed to that I can do anything, unless the rules say I can't. I
guess I need to learn how to read between the lines? Or think more
like what I can get away with? (in a creative sense).
Thank You,
Jeff Follin
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Jeff,
You have the basics. Don't read into the rules what does not exist on paper. Ask questions, remember that any answer you recieve here is NOT official. Use section 16 in the rulebook to find the appropriate person who can give an official interpetation and document all answers. Email replies that you can print out and carry in your tool box are the best way to do this.
Good luck,
DW
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Except I have not seen any electric oil pumps and don't know of anyone using one. You seem allowed to buy raised and spread port heads to which I don't believe stock exhaust mainafolds would bolt. But it is my understanding that you may not modify stock heads in the same manner.
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Rich is correct.
The oil pump is not an issue in Production car classes. The heads must be OEM, ported OK, and meet the criteria in the rulebook. Aftermarket heads are allowed but must meet the same smell test.
DW
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The language pertaining to the heads just isn't sinking in to my poor brain. Specifically, "Cylinder heads are limited to original number of valves and port configuration." What is port configuration? Reversing flow to make intakes exhaust and vice versa? Splitting joined exhaust ports with a divider plate? Increasing valve size? Welding the floor and raising the exit point while keeping the size and shape of the exit flange the same? Opening the port shape wider and/or taller? Moving the manifold bolt holes? Any and all of the above?
Pretty clear I can't add additional intake or exhaust valves, but what exactly is "port configuration".
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Pretty clear I can't add additional intake or exhaust valves, but what exactly is "port configuration".
An example would be an A series engine in Mini Cooper. The original port configuration is 2 intake and 3 exhaust, in a non-crossflow design. You cannot change that out to an aftermarket 7 port crossflow head with intakes on the other side, even if everything else bolts up.
In a Y-block Ford, you could not reconfigure the intake ports from stacked pairs to a more direct line of flow.
Raising the ports, or reworking them is such a way that a stock manifold and gasket would not work would also take you out of production. Zenndog is doing some experiments in these forums with a raised port Studebaker head, which if successful, would be ineligible for production.
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Pretty clear I can't add additional intake or exhaust valves, but what exactly is "port configuration".
An example would be an A series engine in Mini Cooper. The original port configuration is 2 intake and 3 exhaust, in a non-crossflow design. You cannot change that out to an aftermarket 7 port crossflow head with intakes on the other side, even if everything else bolts up.
In a Y-block Ford, you could not reconfigure the intake ports from stacked pairs to a more direct line of flow.
Raising the ports, or reworking them is such a way that a stock manifold and gasket would not work would also take you out of production. Zenndog is doing some experiments in these forums with a raised port Studebaker head, which if successful, would be ineligible for production.
MM, For GT, I would get a definitive answer for that one... Production, where engine swaps are not allowed, you have to maintain configuration... if you cannot see the port mod, it is allowed... like changing the floor... but must look and fit production type parts... Accessory drives and parts are optional.
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I have heard some interpet the rules to be that a stock manifold must bolt up, but have yet to find that in the rule book. Is there some second rulebook with things like this? There is language that specifically allows dividing shared ports. Does anyone keep track of written opinions or clarifications of rules committees on this stuff that is not spelled out?
Also, I see where some aftermarket heads are allowed in Classic Production. Where do you discover what brands and models are legal?
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In your rule book you will find "Contact Information" names and Email addresses. That is where you will find your answers.
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The rule is specifically for the Production Class currently, GT allows engine swaps so this rule does not apply.
"Port configuration" in it's simplest form means that the port layout remains the same as produced. The small block chevy as an example would have a port layout of X I I X X I I X with x's being exhaust and the I's being intake ports. Being that no Chevrolets ever came from the factory with the SB2 type engine for example it would be easy to tell as the port layout is I X I X X I X I so even though the exhaust port layout looks similar to a standard small block it's not the same at all and it's obvious the intake port location are different.
Hope this helps.
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Dyno, Did you mean GC gas coupe, or, GT Grand Touring? I'm getting farcled, again. :?
Steve
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Steve, unlike Gas Coupe, GT is considered a "production" class. However GT allows engine swaps so the rule as I outlined above does not apply to GT, or Gas Coupe for that matter.
The Classic classes might want to think about this to help keep cost in check, unless you want FR09's and DRCE's running around in the classic classes too...
FR09 is the current Ford Nascar engine that along with the Chevrolet R07 and DRCE III mentioned above have absolutely no, none, nada, production parts or production applications.
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Stainless, Dynoroom -
First off, Happy St. Robert's Day to Stainless! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
The reason I cited the Mini Cooper rather than the Spridget was because of that exact issue in GT - One I hope to have a clarification on in the near future.
I don't think my post missed the mark regarding the production coupe category - GT is a whole other worm can.
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Jeff, I found it easier to start out with what you cannot do. A word of caution if you are not going to run an alternator, or a magneto, and are using a capacitive discharge ignition system, better have a 16 volt battery set up. I lost two years and 4000 bucks trying to run on two 12 volt optima's with out an alternator.
Michael, I was just having misque on the relationship between production coupe, and sedan, and how it went to touring, you tied them together rather well. As Howard Johnson senior would say Ruuuugerrr!. :cheers:
Steve
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Basically as I understand it. If you buy a racing head for a SBC or BBC or Ford or any other nonvintage engine. It's good. If you work your butt off modifying some old OEM head your likely to be in trouble.
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Rich,
I take that was directed towards me and my problems. :roll:
Steve
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To go along with this, what about racing blocks that all the factory parts bolt onto but don't have a provision for a wet sump?
Example:
Stage II Buick V6 Off-center motor. You can put stock heads, stock rotating assembly, stock motor mounts, stock transmission, and stock accessories onto the block. However because they were designed for Busch Grand National, Indy Lites, and other race applications; they often have no internal oil gallery or pad for the pickup location to feed the stock oil pump in the front cover. Is this block legal for production?
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Mike LeFevers, Dynoroom, on this forum is my go-to engine guy. I rely on Mike for these answers. Lets see what he has to say about the Buick racing block regards Production class.
DW
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Rich,
I take that was directed towards me and my problems. :roll:
Steve
I don't think so Steve. I think it was about a certain Buick straight 8......
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To go along with this, what about racing blocks that all the factory parts bolt onto but don't have a provision for a wet sump?
Example:
Stage II Buick V6 Off-center motor. You can put stock heads, stock rotating assembly, stock motor mounts, stock transmission, and stock accessories onto the block. However because they were designed for Busch Grand National, Indy Lites, and other race applications; they often have no internal oil gallery or pad for the pickup location to feed the stock oil pump in the front cover. Is this block legal for production?
I think you are incorrectly compairing the engines. The Buick stage I & II engines are allowed in production as long as they are the "off center" design. Both of these engines will accept the standard front cover and oil pump assy if disired although the stage II also has a dry sump provision on the block.
The stage II "on center" block is NOT allowed in production. It is easy to spot this engine as it uses a highly modified stock front cover or a special casting from Buick. Buick used both types of engines in the Nascar Grand National/Busch series and the Buick Indy program along with the Indy lights over the years of production.
As you pointed out you would not be allowed the stage II heads with the extra head bolt holes.
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Mike,
I get the Stage II head rules for the different port order but from what you are saying, no GN1-R's which have the production port order but use the Stage 14 bolts instead of the production 8?
I guess the Stage blocks I've seen have just been modified or something to exclude the oil pickup and gallery to the front cover though I agree that the On-center is definately out for production.
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Correct, only 8 head bolts per side.
As to the 2nd question, later blocks. Same answer though. We don't care about the oil galleries.
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Thanks Mike
DW