Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: EVLEE on April 07, 2006, 12:27:16 PM
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I am in the design stage of an EV 1 (1099 lbs. and under car weight) Electric powered streamliner and would like to pic a few brains about tires of around 22" to 24" in Dia. I think I would like to go with steel rims but have some 3 piece Compomotive alloy rims.
What do you think??Guys or Ladies?
Lee :?:
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How Fast???? M & H's front runners have been good in the past. Top Speed??. The non-exsistant Joe Law M & H's are the best....I've watched them go over 300 at El Mirage. You would need a 3 to 4 inch wheel that was perfect before mounting the tire and then rechecked after tires were mounted. Good Luck
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well I do not know if 300mph will be in the cards with 215hp ac motor at 8,000 to 10,000rpm 1300lbs. with driver.I plan to use Hewland Mk9 5speed transaxle with FORMULA FORD uprights bolted to the frame no shocks or susp.
The currant record for EV1 is only 137mph a formula ford 2000 does that with 145hp on the back straight at Mid-Ohio road course!!
I think 200mph is very possible. \
would you use the same tires all around??
tire size?? steel wheels or alloy??
Lee
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Are you using a differential? Chain drive like a motorcycle? Will the care be designed like the current electric liners or like the Costella/Yacoucci liner? If is is a "square" design all of them the same size is a good idea. Is it going to be sprung? Steel wheels are heavier than alloy. (unsprung weight). Forged alloy rather than cast is my choice. If the front and back are the same, less spares to carry. (rim/tire combination) nothing is worse that coming back on record morning and finding a flat tire that you can't get changed in 30 minutes. Good Luck
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It is a trans axle-- trans(5speed) and ring&pinion(13.4/36) in one case (only 68 lbs!!)the AC motor will be bolted right to the case just like an engine with bell housing and clutch. The very short shafts coming out of the case will be bolted right to the uprights(hubs)and the uprights will be bolted to the frame(solid,no springs at all front or rear.
I would like to run the same tires front and rear. The car will be similar to the Buckeye Bullet but with the driver right behind the front tires instead of the rear tires.
M&H tires after checking them out some might work for the front and rear with only a 1300lbs load for all 4 tires to carry .What do you think??
Lee
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I've purchased M&H front runners from Summit and wrote them back to tell them that they were not as advertised. They were labeled (molded) tube type and with directional arrows. Summit called M&H and they said they were tubeless and non-directional. I had already mounted them up and haven't been able to find out M&H's phone number yet. Apparently it is a Canadian Co. and the tires are manufactured in The U.S. The older M&H tires I have seen had the rotational arrows on them and were not marked tube type or tubeless. The older tires were marked M&H Tire Co., Watertown, Mass. They look like the construction is the same. I haven't seen any speed rating but the more experienced LSR racers I've talked to have said they had used them over 200mph and have had good luck. I am not worried about running them but have concern about passing inspection with the labeling. Any information that might help me clear up these questions will be appreciated. I'm going to run them on a G/GL that should be under 2,000 lbs. and under 200mph for 2 or 3 years.
Harvey
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I have an old set and a new set. I have always liked tubes in my tires.
I have one concern with your decision of the driver position. This is only an observation but the farther back a drver is the easier it is to control the vehicle when things happen.
That doesn't necessitate moving the drive to behind the rear axle but it may give the driver more of a chance to correct a problem. Most rear engine vehicles on the salt move thier driver as far back as possible. Just something to think about.
For your application the M & H's sound perfect. Many roadsters and lakesters run well over 250 with those tires with a lot more weight....Good Luck
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The reasons I want to be right be hind the front wheels is to have better visibility and short steering shaft to the front rack&pinion.I also want the shifter shaft leading forward to the cockpit and not back as in most electric streamliners. Laid out kinda like the Worlds Fastest Honda.The Buckeye Bullet had around 480hp with 400Volts@900amps careening 3700lbs.
My car with driver -220hp with 192 volts@900amps car ring 1300lbs(including driver) They did 321mph I hope to break 200mph and my math says a lot more.I need to get the Gear-Split software yet.
Lee
ps thanks for all of the input and please keep it coming!! you can never have enough information!!
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well I do not know if 300mph will be in the cards with 215hp ac motor at 8,000 to 10,000rpm 1300lbs. with driver.I plan to use Hewland Mk9 5speed transaxle with FORMULA FORD uprights bolted to the frame no shocks or susp.
The currant record for EV1 is only 137mph a formula ford 2000 does that with 145hp on the back straight at Mid-Ohio road course!!
I think 200mph is very possible. \
would you use the same tires all around??
tire size?? steel wheels or alloy??
Lee
I'll give you a little input as your project interests me. This is just food for thought so use it or throw it away.
Personally I would look at steel wheels if money figures into the equation. Now you might need an alloy wheel to meet weight, as I feel building a 200+ mph car under 1100 lbs. is going to be a challenge. If you go the steel wheel route check the following folks out. I got my wheels from them and they have good service and prices and will help you build what you need:
http://www.mrt-wheels.com/
I'm not familiar with that trans-axle, but after doing a search it looks like it was used in Volkswagens. On this site ( http://www.hewland.com/svga/productrange/hcmk9.htm ) they recommend no more than 150 to 180 lb/ft of torque, but on the salt you could probably make it work with probably at least 40% more than that. They show other gears, but I got the feeling they were the internal gears and not the ring and pinion. Are there different ring/pinion options available? I wouldn't want to only have one final gear available if it was me.
You quoted the this ring and pinion ring&pinion(13.4/36)
if I understood it right, but don't know how you could have a 13.4 tooth pinion. If that is the ring (36) and pinion (13.4) teeth that would give you a final gear of 2.69. With that gear and 22 inch tires 8000 rpm would be 198 and 10,000 would be 245. With that gear and 24 inch tires 8000 would be 215 and 10000 270. Now that is if the 5 speed is not an overdrive and is 1 to 1 in fifth. I'm probably missing something about the trans-axle. It is easy on paper to say 8000 would do 198 and 10,000 would do 245, but if it took the 215 hp to do the 198 then it would take 407 hp to run the 245 at 10,000.
If you have some other numbers I could comment on them, but personally I think 215 won't run the 198 and you might be geared too high for speeds less than that, but this all revolves around the actual gearing of the trans-axle, which I don't have or understand.
On the tires why not go with the Goodyears ( http://www.racegoodyear.com/pdf/2006_price_book/eagle_dragway_special.pdf ) if you plan on running over 200? They are available and come in quite a few different sizes.
Are you sure you want a car with "no suspension"? Might mean you don't run some years :cry: and can even help with wheel spin when the salt is good :D .
Hope you don't feel I'm picking you apart, just trying to understand better what you are doing.
Good luck and keep us up to date with your progress,
Sum
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Sorry about the tpyo 13.4 thing :lol: There are about 4 that I know of Ring&pinions for the Hewland tranzaxle 10/31 9/31 &13/36 and yes I can have my choice of gears from 1st to at least a hand full of overdrive 5th gears. As for speed -- well even sports 2000(SCCA) get to 136mph in less than a 1/3 of a mile S2000 weighs 1310lbs(with driver) with 145hp.
At Bonneville I get a mile or two to get up to speed!! with a lot less drag My car will look about 80% like Worlds Fastest Honda.
Tires-- I can buy M&Hs for a lot less than Goodyears But would like too have the Goodyears!!
I already have the alloy wheels and can change the rim hats to get the width I want (looks like it will be 4"x 13") they are Compomotive wheels made for racing.
Ride height will be about 3/4 of an inch too.
The MK9 transaxle will handle up to 225hp if you shift easy Like Craig Taylor tells me of Taylor-race.com He said they ran that much power through the Smokin Buckeye (a electric road racing class that Engineering students at University's all over the country compete in).
I am going to start using the CAD program this weekend to start laying out(to check design and weight too) the car.The car will be laid out totally on the computer then built on a friends surface plate that has birthed many a Sprint car and had many old Indy car on it to be restored.He is a real artist with a welder!! I am looking at testing here next spring and going to Bonneville in August 2007. I will work on the design and try a few models in the wind tunnel then start building in the winter .(in between Skiing of course!!)
Lee
Ps.please keep your thoughts and any Ideas anyone might have!!
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Sounds like you have some good options on the rear. After looking at the streamliner records I've changed my opinion about the 200 being feasible. With a good clean car you should be able to get there with 200 hp :) .
Take lots of pictures of the build and post them along with some of your preliminary drawings.
c ya, Sum
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May I suggest checking out http://www.proev.com/MenuE.htm ? They have built a Subaru Impresa with two electric motors and all wheel drive for autocross and roadracing. The batteries are by Kokam. Very interesting batteries. Although they do cost a bunch.
Also you mentioned that the wheels would be 13x4. I could be wrong but I think the Goodyears and the M&H tires are designed for 15 inch wheels.
Good luck with the car. It sounds pretty interesting.
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ELVEE,
Do you really think that you will need 5 speeds? One of the neat traits of an electric motor is that it develops max torque at stall. and that torque is only controlled by the amount of amps you can feed it and the mechanical strength of the motor, shaft size, magnet bonding etc. I'll bet you could probably start from a dead stop in 3rd of 4th and skip the first couple of gears, better yet get a good push truck that will push you to a hundred and skip the gear box all together! Just run the ring and pinion. I do like the idea of useing the Hewland for the R&P and mounting the FF uprights direct to it. very compact.
Looking forward to seeing you in 2007.
Rex
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I will be using an AC motor that has a power and torque band more like an gas engine than an DC motor that starts off with a lot of torque then drops off at higher rpms.
Lee
I am trying to keep an open mind and think things through as much as possible. I need to save as much weight as possible for more Batteries(power). Weight is also why I may not be running a suspension.
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ELVEE,
So you are going to take the DC from the batteries and make it AC and then modulate the frequency to change speeds?? Is this required hardware less expensive and lighter than using a DC control and motor?
Is the AC motor and control you are looking at std. industrial or something from the military? I know that they have some good stuff.
I am 'buzz word" knowledgable on this stuff but it sure sounds neat.
Did you happen to see the "Monster Garage" where they put a couple of big DC motors into a 62 Biscane? Batteries everywhere!
Rex
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For Specs CHECK OUT AC Propulsion.com
AC -Gen2
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EVLEE,
Looked through the AC Propulsion site! Sure looks like you are on the right path to have the right power to go for the Class I record. The AC Propulsion system is very neat! and I'll bet (you are probably already talking to them about this) that if you tell them that it is for a world speed record and the length of time that the system will really be working is only a few minutes they will gladly let you run the thing at 50% more power. The great thing about this type of drive is that if you can keep it cool you can really flog out some HPs!
Looking at the weight of the system you end up with about 80kgs for the drive and the motor which leaves you 420 kg for the rest of the car. What are you estimating your battery weight at? If you are really crafty you might be able to get the body, chassis, wheels/tires, transmission etc in the 250 to 300 kg area which could leave you 170 kg for batteries. Plus with a 500 kg limit you need to have a very aero shape as you cannot add ballast to gain traction. Actually with the AC system I'll bet you could get the Class II record.
Neat project except the $25,000 price tag on the AC Propulsion drive system is a little stout.
Keep us informed!!!
Rex
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ANYONE HAVE AN EXTRA $25,000. If you build it maybe it will come!!
Well maybe a lot of people do not know this but White Lightning was running I believe 2 AC Propulsion systems when it set the EV3 RECORD!!
Is anyone still running any of these older Electric Streamliner??
Lee
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How did we get to here from tires??????? JD
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It is a natural progression to propulsion from what meets the road!!
I really love all the feedback I am getting by the way.
Tires????? Will most likely be Goodyears ,I still have a few friends there from my Indycar days so maybe I can get a deal!! A friend at Compomotive is talking to his Friend at Kodiak racing wheels and maybe he will make me a deal on a special made set!!!
Lee
:wink:
Ps.Were back on Tires again!!
Re; Sorry about the size of the pic but I think it is a really cool looking STREAMLINER
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Sounds like you have some good options on the rear. After looking at the streamliner records I've changed my opinion about the 200 being feasible. With a good clean car you should be able to get there with 200 hp :) .
I know of a Bonneville streamliner that went over 300 mph with 175 hp...
Aero is the key..... Like we already didnt know that.... But just to show you with an example ....
Jon
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I know of a Bonneville streamliner that went over 300 mph with 175 hp...
Aero is the key..... Like we already didnt know that.... But just to show you with an example ....
Jon
Jon was that a bike or car? I see where Burkdoll has a 202 record in a car with a 500cc, un-blown, on gas. I can't imagine that making even 175 HP. In fact looking at last years rule book I only find 3 car streamliner records under 200 regardless of motor size (not including the diesels and electrics) and they are; one in K un-blown fuel and two in the Vintage 4 class, but 2 of the Vintage 4's have gone over 200.
Easy to see how streamliners are the fastest cars out there :D . Like you said it is all about aero.
c ya, Sum
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Sorry Missed Jesse on that one.
Does anyone know the difference between Goodyears Frontrunners and there Eagle Land Speed tires. There is a big difference in price??
What is the tread diff. is one smooth or What??
Lee
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Elvee,
The May 2006 issue of RACECAR ENGINEERING has a good article on a British hill climb car that is electric powered. Not much "break through" info but interesting information especially regarding the weight and also "super capacitors"
If you don't happen to be a reader of RACECAR ENGINEERING you can usually find it at Barnes and Noble or Borders.
Rex
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Thanks Just finished reading the article ,I am a subscriber and that's for the headsup!!
Lee
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Evee, the tires are identical in looks and tread, however the lsr tire has six ply sidewalls, compared to two in the drag race version. If you end up sideways at 200, you might want to spend the extra sprog...........
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Evee, the tires are identical in looks and tread, however the lsr tire has six ply sidewalls, compared to two in the drag race version. If you end up sideways at 200, you might want to spend the extra sprog...........
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I will be going with the 26" or 28" Goodyears depending on how I want my final gearing and frontal area to be. With the DC. motor I need to stay down around 4000 to 5000 rpm to be in the peak torque and hp. range.I found a great interview of Eric Luebben that drove Lightning Rod. Lightning Rod also had DC. motors and he talked alot about how there geared and used the DC. motors. It has been very helpful.
Lee