Landracing Forum
Misc Forums => NON LSR Posting => Topic started by: NathanStewart on June 20, 2012, 11:30:59 PM
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Man, this couldn't be happening at a worse time. My daily driver is an '03 Buell XB9S Lightning. I believe the Buell motor is akin to the Sportster 883 engine. I've been riding 'er 120 miles a day back and forth to work for the past three years. The odometer is about to click over to 58k. Today when I got to work I noticed a "whurring" sound coming from the crankcase and it changes with engine speed. There's absolutely no loss in power and it fires right up and rides fine but it's making this horrible sound that I can even feel/hear while riding it (even with ear plugs in).
I get it home and put it on the stand and fire it up and it's still doing it and maybe just slightly worse than it was before. I did the old "long screwdriver to the ear" stethoscope deal and listened all over. It basically sounds like it's coming from everywhere but it seems to be really bad on the oil pump (FWIW no low oil pressure light) but I know there are a bunch of gears on that side of the engine and I'm sure it could be anything.
Does anyone have any suggestions on what to look for on a HD engine with this many miles? Is there anyone in the Orange County area that might be willing to look at it? The reason this is happening at a horrible time is because I just dropped my car off at a body shop in LA to have it fixed after it was rear ended in a hit and run back in March so I'm basically SOL. Figures.
Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!
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Nathan - I am pretty sure that an '03 Buell IS the same as a Sportster....
If the noise is present when the machine is not in motion, it is within the engine/transmission area....there are NOT a lot of things in a Sportster engine that will do this ... Having only recently done a complete teardown and rebuild of a Sportster engine/trans combo - I am thinking about what it could be..... So... Is it possibly coming from the primary drive - as in - the chain needs to be tightened?
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Nathan, check that your crankshaft compensator nut is still tight, and your chain adjuster nylon shoe is ok,
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Nathan, check that your crankshaft compensator nut is still tight, and your chain adjuster nylon shoe is ok,
Do Sportsters of this vintage have a compensator?.... I never knew that the drive components were/are called that .... but if you have the primary drive opened up, DO check to see that the sprockets are tight! ... and .... along with a loose chain, the adjuster shoe COULD have disintegrated!
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Okay, that side is the easy side to get off so I'll check in there. Honestly it's hard to tell where the sound is coming from. It kinda sounds like it's coming right from the middle of the motor (crank bearings?) but the oil pump was most notably the loudest thing I checked.
Any other thoughts?
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There is a two bolt little round plug at the "top" of the primary case.... It is held on by two 1/4" countersunk Allen Head capscrews.... take it off and see if the chain has a lot more thant about 5/8" of up/down movement.... if it is lots more, tighten it.... there is a "setscrew" with a jam nut under the footpeg area.... (for stock "mid" control Sporties, anyway) you loosen off the jam nut and tighten it with an Allen Wrench.... until you have about 9/16" of total up/down movement....
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BTW, you do not have to take the primary cover off for this procedure....
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Yeah, I've read about adjusting the primary tension in the service manual. I checked it once a couple years ago but I noticed that the chain would either be really slacked or only slightly slacked depending on whether I rotated the rear wheel forward or back. The manual didn't specify at what point the slack should be checked so I never really checked it BUT the bike has never exhibited any of the symptoms listed in the manual that would normally require the primary chain to be tightened. I'll give it a check and will be very happy if that's all it is.
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Having only recently done a complete teardown and rebuild of a Sportster engine/trans combo - I am thinking about what it could be.....
What was the reason for the teardown/rebuild? I'm trying to gauge what exactly is "high miles" for this engine and when I should think about rebuilding it. It sure runs like a top and I ride it pretty hard (4500 rpm @ ~80mph for 60 miles at a time over the past 50k+ miles). Hopefully whatever is going on now isn't a game ender for my bike.
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Nathan - first get your own ride looked at!... I will explain in a minute!.... Get the maximum slack up on the top "chord" of the chain.... and then check it.... you will have to roll the rear wheel backwards to do so....
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Roger that. I'll check it tomorrow after I get home from work. I'll be carpooling with a co-worker for the time being. Thanks.
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Having only recently done a complete teardown and rebuild of a Sportster engine/trans combo - I am thinking about what it could be.....
What was the reason for the teardown/rebuild? I'm trying to gauge what exactly is "high miles" for this engine and when I should think about rebuilding it. It sure runs like a top and I ride it pretty hard (4500 rpm @ ~80mph for 60 miles at a time over the past 50k+ miles). Hopefully whatever is going on now isn't a game ender for my bike.
Jeez man, you ask too many questions..... it's a long story.... I had "a ton" of used Sportster parts here from over the years.... one of my sidelines is building custom Sporties.... one of my friends was here last November looking for a few "trinkets" for his younger brother's Sportster (which I built several years ago).... we laid out ALL of my parts on the work table in my storage shed .... he remarked that it looked like I had enough stuff to but together another whole bike, if I had a frame and a few other items (this was true!)... I found a frame and matching crankcases with TITLE for sale on ebay so I bought them and .... the motor and spare parts that I had here, I rebuilt into those crank cases .... the high perf parts from the spare motor all got saved - I put the bike motor together as a "stock" 883 .... "cuz a stock Sportie gets about 60 mpg.... and I was just going to keep the bike as a spare bike for when family or friends come to visit.... but a girl, who is friends with my kids saw it and has "spoken for" it.... It is almost ready to go for her....
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In the last reply the pics are of two Sporties I built a few years ago....
This pic is of the one I am putting together now
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Also, another soft tail Sportster is taking shape... 2" top tube stretch and 2" lower leg stretch with 35 degrees of rake.... The pic shows a quick mock up on the frame jig.....
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it quite possibly is the oil pump gear..... a common failure that usualy takes out the whole motor...... he xb series is when they started replacing the gear with a brass one but a good place to start after the primary tension.... just drop the pump and see how sharp the teath are, and hope none are missing
kent
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Nathan - first get your own ride looked at!... I will explain in a minute!.... Get the maximum slack up on the top "chord" of the chain.... and then check it.... you will have to roll the rear wheel backwards to do so....
all chains need to be adjusted when on that tight spot
- when it has the least amount of slack.
you can talk to eric at bennets' performance.
not sure how close long beach is to orange county.
hope that helps.
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Nathan,
I can't help you with the bike problem however I have three trucks and we only use two of them daily, you can use our truck if you need it. I am in Huntington Beach and the truck is at our Wossner Pistons warehouse. 15638 Graham Street.
714-369-8879
Come on by and get it.
J
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I agree with Kent. Drain the oil and see what you get besides oil.
Wait . . . What! . . . Kent old buddy, you disappear in November and just show up? Where ya been?
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John, thank you for the very gracious offer. I'm able to hitch a ride to work for now but if something comes up you'll be hearing from me.
Dean & Kent, I'll drain the oil and see what else comes out with it. Regarding removing the pump, does it simply just drop out the bottom of the crank case? I briefly looked through the service manual and I thought I saw something about lining something up with something else (???). Do I need to pull the side cover off to get the oil pump out?
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Last time I had a similar noise the alternator shed a magnet ... ran fine but didnt make electricity ... draining the oil will tell a lot.
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Last time I had a similar noise the alternator shed a magnet ... ran fine but didnt make electricity ... draining the oil will tell a lot.
Just remember - you have TWO oils to drain... the engine is a dry sump, of course .... and you may find stuff in the tank... the transmission and primary drive are separate from the engine - make sure you have the Sportster (or equivalent) clutch/trans lube to put back in ....
About removing the oil pump.... I cannot vouch for a Buell, but on a Sportster, the oilpump does come out from down below... it is a bit of a pain as the hoses may not have enough extra length to pull them down below the cam cover for easy(ier?) removal.... there are four socket head capscrews when you look up under the cam cover but only two actually hold the pump in.... the other two hold the pump's stages together. The pump is a two stage gerotor design with one stage being the pressure (or actually, the positive flow to the engine) side and the other is the scavenge side. The pump, once removed, comes apart easily and can be carefully inspected... It will not be hard to see damage if it is damaged.
Now, if you have to replace it, I believe a new one is pricey! Like a $30 part with a $300 marketing plan. I do not have any lines on aftermarket stuff..... although.... I understand that the 86-90 pump will bolt in without modification and it is a much better pump with a better scavenge and will create more flow and possibly pressure to the engine side....low oil pressure can be a problem and the use of the earlier can be a solution on really hi-perf engines - which are often built with a little more clearance and will make more heat etc....
Re-aligning for and re-instillation is not that bad.... the pumps generally go in fairly easily. If it does not sit against the gasket with an easy push, you may have to turn the drive shaft a tiny bit and try again until you get it.... You can also, with the bike in top gear, turn the rear wheel a tiny bit until the pump slips in.
I do hope that it is not anything more than a loose primary chain though.... happy wrenching, Nathan
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Just adjusted the primary chain... noise is still there. :|
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Well I think I'm fuct. Magnetic drain plug came out with a big metallic mohawk. :cry:
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Well I think I'm fuct. Magnetic drain plug came out with a big metallic mohawk. :cry:
It's coffee time in Canada (and raining too - but the shop roof does not leak!) ...
That would be your trannie oil.... BTW, when is the last time it was changed? .... The "mohawk" may be a long while worth of accumulation. Did about one quart more or less come out?.... The engine should be 3 quarts (perhaps more on a Buell)
The moving parts that will make the noise as you describe are in the bottom end, the trannie and, of course, the wheels. But, if the noise is present when the bike is not in motion, you can rule out the wheels, brakes, drive belt rubbing somewhere and the trannie output shaft & bearing. What is kind of odd is that these motor/trannie combos are virtually indestructible as long as they have oil ..... ???
Start with looking in the primary case for any issues.... From this point on, it is going to be visual inspection and checking procedures.... The trannie itself comes out as a unit after the primary drive has been removed as it is all mounted to the trap door (this got changed on the '04 and up models, making them, in my opinion, less desirable due to more expensive maintenance costs)...
I'll help you out however I can over the internet or by phone if need be, Nathan....
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Well at least your both inspectors and talk almost the same English, :-D. The neat thing is the wealth of of information or being able to direct a person to someone to ask. :cheers:
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Try asking here:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/3842/143909.html?
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Nope, the mohawk of metal was on my engine oil drain plug, not the tranny. I change the oil and trans fluid religiously every 5k on the dot with HD synthetic fluids. Nothing has EVER been on the engine oil drain plug the 11 times I've changed it over the last four years but there's always a little something on the tranny plug. Well this time there was a whole bunch of metal on the engine oil plug and the usually little bit of stuff on the trans plug. FWIW I went and bought a wire mesh strainer to drain my oil through and it didn't catch anything - it looks like the magnet got it all (or all that's in the tank at least).
I stethoscoped the oil pump again and it sounds really bad which makes sense considering how much metal I found in the oil. Either way the motor's junk and now I have to decide on what to do.
Option A - Rebuild motor
Pros - could be cheapest option
Cons - I have no time to do it myself and I hate paying people to do things that I'm capable of doing; I'd still have a used bike with nearly 60k miles on it
Option B - Buy another bike
Pros - no BS, quickest path to getting back on the road with a bike
Cons - most expensive, do I buy another Buell if it's only going to die a horrible death at 60k miles? I really like my bike and I really don't like crotch rockets.
Option C - Buy a used motor
Pros - less time that rebuilding the original engine
Cons - you never really know what you're getting unless you really know who you're getting it from; could be semi-expensive and time consuming
What do you guys think? What's the ballpark cost to rebuild a stock motor?
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There's one on local Craigs with 13k miles for $4795. <shrug> I dunno :oops:
http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcd/3053690930.html (http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcd/3053690930.html)
But then, they have an '04 xb12s Lightning for $5495 - 7,600 miles.
http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcd/3058184893.html (http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcd/3058184893.html)
Fly up Friday evening and spend the weekend "flying" back home.
Mike
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Do you have the ability to cut your oil filter apart and see what you have in there?
You can do an awful lot of the rebuild "in frame".... as long as the crank bearings are okay anyway....
And you have the racecar to get ready for Bonneville in the rest of your spare time too huh....
you'd be looking at a minimum of $2000 for a shop to do it....
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So, does your engine look like the Buell motor in the pic or like the Sportster motor in the pic....
I have a line or two on some Sportster motors but no Buell motors...
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There's one on local Craigs with 13k miles for $4795. <shrug> I dunno :oops:
But then, they have an '04 xb12s Lightning for $5495 - 7,600 miles.
Fly up Friday evening and spend the weekend "flying" back home.
Mike
Good lookin' out there Mike. I've been looking all over So-Cal and would consider buying something out of state but Oregon is pretty far away. I'd really like to find any XBS model with less than 10k miles for around $5k. It might mean having a bike shipped to me. FWIW, I bought my bike from the original owner and it only had 2k miles on and I paid $5300 for it four years ago.
Do you have the ability to cut your oil filter apart and see what you have in there?
You can do an awful lot of the rebuild "in frame".... as long as the crank bearings are okay anyway....
And you have the racecar to get ready for Bonneville in the rest of your spare time too huh....
you'd be looking at a minimum of $2000 for a shop to do it....
Yeah, I could cut the filter apart and getting the motor out of the frame isn't too big a deal. You actually have to "rotate" it to get the exhaust off and the exhaust has to come off to get the side cover off. Anyways, once you've done the engine rotation you're only two or three short steps from having the whole motor out.
So not only am I working on the race car (which is 3 hours away from where I live) but I'm also trying to work on my own hot rod as well and now I've got to figure this mess out. And of course I still have my 120 mile commute everyday. I think I'd trade money for time at this point.
My engine looks like the one on top - starter behind the motor over the trans, different side cover, different intake ports, etc.
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Well it's time to move on. I'm flying to Vegas on Friday night and riding home my new bike on Saturday morning.
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Does that make the broken one a lsr project??? :-D :-D :evil:
That's ONLY one more project. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Pete
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Now I've got a new problem... :-D
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm268/punkrider99punkrider99/IMAG0222.jpg?t=1347144722)
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Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
I see no problem.
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Now I've got a new problem... :-D
Only if your Wife complains. :-D
Tom G.
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I can see the problem. Garage is too small for another Lightning.
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LOL you guys are funny. The original bike is still dead (bad motor) but I found both the red and black bikes out in Vegas at the same time. I never heard from the seller of the black bike (my first choice) so I bought the red bike (my second choice). I flew out one day and then rode the red bike home and after getting home and checking my email I finally heard from the seller of the black bike and of course they still had it and it was still for sale. :roll: Double checked bank account and decided to buy the black bike which is one year newer than the red bike plus it only had 2200 miles on it. Stayed the night in Vegas on our way back from Speed Week and then rode the black bike home the next morning. I'd keep the red one but the sedan sure could use some funds so it's for sale. The end.
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Yup, you need a bigger garage!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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You are a sick man Nathan! :-o :-D
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I thought you said you had a problem..... that really does not sound like one ,,,, just keep advertising....
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I wish this was a good news bump but it isn't...
I think the tranny on my new bike is going out. :cry: :roll:
This past week there has been a whine coming from the motor/trans and its especially loud at around 60mph. If I get up to speed and clutch in and coast I can hear it whining but its hard to hear exactly what it is when you're going 80mph and there's a ton of wind noise. Got home today and put bike on rear stand. I immediately noticed that rear wheel has a lot of resistance and rolls about one turn free spinning when spun by hand and then stops. That's not good.
Fire up bike on stand, put into 4th gear and spin it up to 60mph then clutch in and shut off engine and it sounds terrible. I'm guessing a bearing on the main shaft is going bad. This is my 2009 bike that I bought with 2000 miles on it LAST YEAR and 10k miles later the trans is going out. This is literally the newest vehicle i own. I absolutely cannot believe this. The motor has to come out and the case has to be split to rebuild the trans. I love these bikes but they're pieces of shit! I have TWO dead buells in my garage now. Ugh.... so aggravating.
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The Xb is close to a Sportster but not really. Common issue with the Xb was the crank nut wasn't torque enough. Over time it backs off and the rotor and sprocket start moving around... Primary adjustments are almost impossible because the front sprocket is changing angles due to the slop.
Another common issue deep inside is shift drum and fork issues... Worn Parts don't positively engage gears or allow the fork to chatter once it's in a gear...
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Stupid question, does it have oil in the trans? Years ago a un-named person (me) didnt fill the primary/trans on a 92 Sportster and it did the same thing....I felt stupid when I tore it all apart, trans comming out and my dad asks, shouldnt of oil come out of there........why yes dad, oil should of come out of there.
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Good point JC. I left that part of the story out. That was actually the very first thing I checked and was very upset to find out that there actually was oil in the trans because now I have no explainable reason why this happened. The entire way home I was thinking to myself there's no f'ing way that I forgot to put oil in the trans and as soon as I took the clutch cover off some oil started dripping down the side of the cover and I was like ok, at least I didn't kill it but wtf did? I looked in there with a flashlight and I can see the primary submerged in actually very clean looking oil.
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Just in 4th? Or all gears? All of the evo sporties I have owned have had whine in 4th gear, but they changed the gears for 06 up, I don't know if it carried over to the XB or not. With that said I have a 04 XB and it is surely a quieter trans than the Sportsters
Primary chain tension ok? My father had a big twin evo, Fat girl or some silly bike like that and it had terrible noise coming from the primary, turns out the primary chain and sprockets were toast.
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Yeah, all gears more or less. It does it in fifth too. Basically 40-60mph it's at it's loudest. I don't really know that it goes away above 60 but its less noticeable but only probably because of all the other noise. I knew something was bad when I would split lanes and go in between two cars and it sounded like my bike had a quick change rear end. You know that really whiny straight cut gear sound? Yeah, that's what it sounds like.
I'm pretty sure it's the final drive. The trans itself shifts fine and feels okay. It's the front drive pulley on the output shaft. It's almost like the drive belt is too tight but buells have fixed tension (as you obviously know).
I'm going to call Bennett's and see what a trans r&r costs. Ugh.
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Output shaft bearing would be my guess then. I had a Ironhead (sorry knee) years ago that lost the output bearing, it was a very similar noise as to what you are describing.
One other thing I have seen was debris in the pulleys. It was casuing a real loud noise, almost chattering like.