Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => World of Speed-specific stuff => Topic started by: m610 on May 29, 2012, 11:38:10 PM
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Hi, new guy. Checked in at the "Introduction" forum and everything.
This will be my first time on the salt. I always admired land speed efforts. I think the first time I learned about it was when the Blue Flame ran. I was never into it enough to want to try it, being more of a road racing type, but now that I've done a little road racing I'd like to give the salt a try. We're signing up for the 130 mph club event.
The car is a 1969 Opel GT. We found it on eBay and bought it for $200. It had been sitting in an orchard for 25 years but it was still in good enough shape to take it racing, after 9 weeks of intensive work. Racing for us, by the way, is the 24 Hours of LeMons, so the car is cheap, and not really that fast, but it has finished all eight of its races, even brought home four trophies, and is still going strong. The car is also street legal and street driven, and looks pretty good, from a distance.
The car's aero is good. I'll do a rolldown test soon to get some numbers, then will do some calculations. We have hit 115 mph on a closed course, and 120 mph was the publishing top speed at red-line. We might be able to get closer to 130 mph and if we pop in a 5 speed it should be possible.
I read the rules carefully, several times, and even made a checklist. I know there aren't many rules, but oft times what one reads online in May is not quite what an inspector wants to see in September. I emailed USFRA with a few questions and so far haven't received good answers, so I thought I'd ask them here.
1. After running for two years in LeMons we have a pretty solid car, with a great cage, harness, all that good stuff. But it does not have windows, except for the windshield. I didn't see anything in the rules about side and rear glass but I figure other than convertibles everyone will have their glass in and windows rolled up, for obvious aero reasons. I an concerned that if I showed up without that glass that it might create a stir/cause me the fail tech. My question is, will our missing windows be a problem or concern? And, do the event organizers require wrist straps and/or window nets for cases like this?
2. Our drive shaft is only 16" long, as measured between the u-joints. The torqe tube covers the rest of the distance. While short, we do not have a strap or other retention device for the drive shaft. Is this required for such a short drive shaft?
3. How would folks feel if a friend came along to film my runs... from the air? He'll be in a hang glider (rigid-wing type) and will even have a motor for assistance in takeoffs and for flying when soaring is not possible. He is a national champion cross-country pilot with over 30 years experience and has one of the best gliders available. Of course he'll be slower than the cars but will also be at an altitude where he can follow the action OK. What do you think? If OK, are there any requirements, such as where he lands and takes off, where he flies, minimum altitude, for instance, to not cross the line of our runs, etc.
4. Would it be OK if I had a drag chute on my car?
That's all for now. I'll be scanning posts here for advice for first timers, logistical issues and others.
Thanks in advance.
Mike
P.S. Our LeMons team and car on Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/pages/Team-Tinyvette/192201637460668 (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Team-Tinyvette/192201637460668)
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Whether you need the windows or not for the rules, I'll bet a set of homemade Lexan windows would add mph. I wouldn't be worried about making any compound curves.
Pete
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You might be better off asking the SCTA/BNI the questions.... USFRA would pretty much follow suit with what ever the "big" organization would say....
What I do know is that ultra - light airplanes have been used for filming at past events .... I do not know if special permission needs to be obtained prior to the event or not...
About the windows though.... I have not gone through my rule book to see what it says about that but off the top of my head, in Production and/or Grand Touring classes, I do know that the windows ARE one of the items that must be retained (or are required - I just do not recall the exact wording)... the removal of the windows may classify you into modified sports.... but, since I do not run at or inspect at any of the USFRA events, I do not know exactly what they will require....
You did say the 130 mph club.... That may be more of a "time only" and "run what you brung" type of category....and, on that, you WILL have to talk to them... You might consider calling their number and talking to a person who is "in charge"... and then recap the conversation in an email back to the person....
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Yes, this will be for the 130 MPH club event. The rules are barely any stricter than that for a typical track day at Thunderhill. Shirt, pants, helmet and a decent car.
Windows are required for the GT class in the SCTA events. So are interior door panels (good luck with that and a cage) and period connect air dams and spoilers, if they were available. The Opel GT has over 300 pounds of lift at 100 mph, so I wouldn't want to go with out our air dam and wing. Besides, the wing is an important part of our theme. ;)
I spent days going through the rule book on this. Even made up a pretty nice 15 page table/checklist. I ended up contacting SCTA and immediately got two excellent responses. Seem they are really on the ball. One guy, the chief tech guy, knows our car and also races in LeMons.
I do want to run the car in LeMons race trim, but can put in Lexan windows in if needed. We already have a Lexan rear window we use for night racing. It's heavily tinted to reduce the glare of lights.
I had emailed USFRA. I think I will call them, too.
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With the 130 club, the spirit of the rules veers toward street driven vehicles. Technically, it would have to be "street legal", licensed and, I think, proof of insurance would need to be available.
Now that said, I was able to run my Midget there two years ago without operating headlights, tail lights, and no registration, but it did require advance permission. By all means, contact them - they're very amiable folks.
I suspect they would like to see windows in place and they would greatly enhance your speed.
Those little Opals can be made to scream.
Be safe, go fast, and have fun.
Windows are required for the GT class in the SCTA events. So are interior door panels (good luck with that and a cage) and period connect air dams and spoilers, if they were available.
Given the spacious confines of the Opal GT, trust me when I say say that as a 6'5" driver of an MG Midget with a 9 point cage and a factory hardtop, the door panels are the easy part. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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With the 130 club, the spirit of the rules veers toward street driven vehicles. Technically, it would have to be "street legal", licensed and, I think, proof of insurance would need to be available.
Now that said, I was able to run my Midget there two years ago without operating headlights, tail lights, and no registration, but it did require advance permission. By all means, contact them - they're very amiable folks.
I suspect they would like to see windows in place and they would greatly enhance your speed.
Those little Opals can be made to scream.
Be safe, go fast, and have fun.
Windows are required for the GT class in the SCTA events. So are interior door panels (good luck with that and a cage) and period connect air dams and spoilers, if they were available.
Given the spacious confines of the Opal GT, trust me when I say say that as a 6'5" driver of an MG Midget with a 9 point cage and a factory hardtop, the door panels are the easy part. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I do not think that the door panels inside are required to be stock as in factory original - they are supposed to be there so that the "rough" inner side of a factory door will be covered and "smooth" so as to not in any way catch or snag your clothing when having to get out of and away from your car in ahurry during an emergency. I am of the belief that flat aluminum will be fine.
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I'd suggest that you query USFRA directly about their rules and preferences for the 130 Club. SCTA doesn't have such an event, so doesn't have any rules for it. I wouldn't be surprised if you were to ask them - and get referred to USFRA.
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Jon,
All that has been mentioned in the new guy's posts. I hate to bring my grandmother back but, she says READ the thread title.
DW
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Here's our partially completed Speed Week checklist. I deciphered the rule book to make this, and quit working on it once it was clear that we'd never be able to meet SCTA spec. ;)
Link: http://www.kstreetstudio.com/files/tinyvette/bonneville2012/TinyvetteSpeedWeekChecklist.pdf (http://www.kstreetstudio.com/files/tinyvette/bonneville2012/TinyvetteSpeedWeekChecklist.pdf)
Item 21 describes the side panel requirement, but I understand that rules as-written and as-implemented are not always the same, which is why I ask a lot of questions, after reading the rules carefully.
Here's our USFRA checklist. Much simpler.
Link: http://www.kstreetstudio.com/files/tinyvette/bonneville2012/USFRA_130%20_MPH_Club_Rules.pdf (http://www.kstreetstudio.com/files/tinyvette/bonneville2012/USFRA_130%20_MPH_Club_Rules.pdf)
I got better answers to my questions to USFRA today. I will need a window net, and a retainer for the drive shaft, and they are thinking the car is a 150 MPH club car because it is a race car. I don't think that they get it yet that it is a LeMons race car. On a LeMons budget you can't do much to the car and so ours is nearly a stock Opel GT with more safety equipment.
The decision to grant permission to be able to fly at the event (camera in the sky) will be made at the event. They don't want distractions. I understand that.
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ellen thought a 150 club because it will be able to run 130 but without being street legal you will not qualify membership in the 130 club
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It is street legal and street driven, and reaching 130 will require some luck.
Technically, by the rules as written, I think it is a 130 MPH club car. But in the end it could be that a race car, even one like mine, is not in the spirit of the 130 mph club, so they won't allow it. That's OK, except that the 150 mph club costs more. I'll run in whatever they want me to run in. I just want to come out and play with you guys. The car is caged and I have the suit and helmet and all that they are asking for so the car will need minimal preparation over what it's got already. We'll be adding the drive shaft retention thingy next week and I'll be measuring it for a window net tomorrow.
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if it has license ect. for a street driven car and passes tec for 130 club then it can run as a 130 club entry
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Was there a picture posted that I missed?
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Here's one:
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/168782_192216454125853_192201637460668_802096_2833751_n.jpg)
And here's one when the car has its license plates on:
(http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/256509_229340810413417_6290787_o.jpg)
And just for fun, one more, from the inside:
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/392079_361909213823242_1560801067_n.jpg)
More on Facebook at: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Team-Tinyvette/192201637460668 (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Team-Tinyvette/192201637460668)
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It is street legal and street driven, and reaching 130 will require some luck.
Technically, by the rules as written, I think it is a 130 MPH club car. But in the end it could be that a race car, even one like mine, is not in the spirit of the 130 mph club, so they won't allow it. That's OK, except that the 150 mph club costs more. I'll run in whatever they want me to run in. I just want to come out and play with you guys. The car is caged and I have the suit and helmet and all that they are asking for so the car will need minimal preparation over what it's got already. We'll be adding the drive shaft retention thingy next week and I'll be measuring it for a window net tomorrow.
Do your homework and document everything.... It nearly always helps!
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That is a rather nice $500.00 car!!! :roll: :roll: :-D
Pete
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That is a rather nice $500.00 car!!! :roll: :roll: :-D
Pete
Pete - I think he originally said $200.... so, being that we are Canadians.... we will need to know exactly when that was so that we can relate that to how much it would actually have cost us at the time he purchased it.... eh?
LOL
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I believe the LeMons rules specify the $500.00 value. It sounds like a fun series at a reasonable price, even if the investment for a competitive car is more than $500.00.
Pete
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I overheard a lot angry of "No way that is a $500 car" comments at our first race, but then these people came by to check out the car and were satisfied. The rollered Rustoleum paint job looks pretty good from 50 feet, and I got the wing from a former tuner kid who was embarrassed he ever put it on his Civic. It was broken anyway, and we got it for $50. The air dam was free courtesy of a clumsy UPS deliver guy. We just had to put it back together.
Folks in Lemons are pretty satisfied that the car is legit. Some online commenters still think the car costs a lot more because it is rare and novel, but as one person noted, these cars are lovable, not valuable. Since we started racing this car I've been offered free-to-$100 Opel GTs that "ran when parked". In Germany, however, a fully restored Opel GT can go for up to 40k Euro.
We started out racing on the motor that had sat in the car in that field for 25 years. People told us that these were pretty sturdy motors and turned out to be the case for us. We just changed the oil and spark plugs and it ran well for four races. It leaked everywhere, both on the pressure and vacuum sides. It was horrible at times, but it ran. All 85 whp of it! ;)
Brakes, tires, wheels, seat, instrument panel, any and all safety gear, are off budget. Since we started ball joints and tie rod ends became off budget, and exhaust is off budget because if the rusty pipes on these old heaps didn't get replaced they'd just be falling off on the track. The cost of theme elements tend to be forgiven. Our vinyl cost us $250.
We replaced the brakes, got strong wheels and good tires, installed a cage and seat and all that stuff. The car got rewired and most of the bushings replaced because 25 years in the California sun had destroyed anything plastic or rubber on the car. We did put sway bars on the car and fessed up to that, having busting our budget by around $150, but between the bribe, the clever delivery of the bribe (flipped the headlights to reveal a bottle of Scotch), and the fact that Jay once drove his dad's Opel GT, back when they were new, and thinks these cars are horrible and our prospects hopeless, we got through BS OK and haven't been bothered since except to check that we still had a 1.9L Opel motor in it, which we do. There are a couple of other Opel GTs in LeMons and they have all swapped in Buick V6's, or a small Ford motor, or a rotary. Our car is still 100% Opel, even the tranny, which we run through at a rate of about 1 every 1.5 races. We are currently on tranny number 7 and we've got two spares.
We did go on to win our class twice, then were told we were dominating it and got kicked up a class. We hadn't win on speed. We won on overall execution. Staying out on track, fixing stuff quickly (tranny swap in 32 minutes), and just cranking off the laps. In the races we won, to find car with a slower best lap you had to go back about 50 places.
On the salt, we'll need speed. We've got a stronger motor (maybe 100 whp) and our tire diameter is 6% bigger than stock, so if this works out we think we can get to 126-7 at red-line, which is 6500 rpm. The motor will rev higher and survive.
Here are a couple of our race write-ups, if anyone is interested.
Results from Arse-Freeze 2011- http://www.kstreetstudio.com/files/tinyvette/arsefreeze2011/Arse-Freeze2011a.pdf
Preparing for Sears Pointless 2012 - http://www.kstreetstudio.com/files/tinyvette/TinyvetteTimes-20120317.pdf
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We just scored a 2.0 L motor (high compression, mild cam, big valves, ready to install) along with a Getrag 5-speed and all the hardware, two side-draft Webers plus manifolds, several headers and a bunch more, for $500! That's a very Lemony price. But mostly that means we now have a 5th gear. With the Opel 4-speed I am sure we can reach 120 mph withing a mile on pavement. With the Getrag, 1st-4th are the same as for the Opel tranny, so 5th will give us more range, assuming we have the power to get through 4th. I'll do the calculations to see what we could theoretically do, assuming we can get the motor to red-line.
So now my questions move on to traction. We have an open diff. Tires are 205x50x15. I'm wondering if I'll start losing traction at higher speeds, trying to push all that wind with just one tire doing the work. A Quaife is available for the rear end we have now, but it costs around $1500. Not Lemony. A Phantom Grip might do the job at around $300. Not Lemony either, but I may petition the LeMons Supreme Court for a variance.
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Wow! You guys have not yet run the salt but are already ramping up the resources expended. Short learning curve here.
DW
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PM sent.
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As first timers we need think this through in order to do well/not royally screw up.
Minimum resource expension (new word) for - window net, steel valve stems, something to keep the drive shaft in in case the u-joints go, maybe $300.
The tranny, as a part of the $500 package, would be valued, proportionally, at maybe $100.
Not sure if we'll add a Phantom Grip. I'm not inclined to, but it sure would help us out on some of these road courses.
Total build cost, from LeMons to Salt Flats, is currently around $400.
A drag chute would be fun, too. For the cameras. We have a four-camera system in the car. Lots of examples on Vimeo.com. Just search for Team Tinyvette.
I just realized that we have a LeMons race at Thunderhill only a few days after WOS ends. We'll have to hustle back.
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As much as I enjoy the lemons(sp?) concept, don't give it up for a chance at a one-tine salt assault. There may be a guy there with an MG Midget (imagine that!) who wants to take you on!
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... with just one tire doing the work...
The only way you'd have "just one tire doing the work" would be with a spool (extreme opposite of an 'open' differential) and almost no traction at one wheel.
You're overlooking what a marvelous invention a traditional differential is; it assures identical torque delivery to each driven wheel (thus identical motive force at each tire contact, assuming equal rolling diameters). No steering forces are created as a result of differing traction between the two tires (other than small transitional forces resulting from polar inertia of a tire/wheel if it begins to 'spin').
If you've experienced the unsettling steering forces of a PosiTraction equipped car (RWD) on snowy or icy roads, I think you can easily understand that it's not what you want a landracing machine to do.
[Let the screamin' and hollerin' begin... but PLEASE- investigate the subject first...]
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I'm with you, I use a Ford 9" 2:47 ratio with open spool and have done fine at 216 mph in my small turbo Avanti. What do you guys like best for rear ends??
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... with open spool...
Umm... that's an oxymoron. Which do you run- open differential or a spool?
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Wow,sure is pretty for a multi-Lemons car! They must have become more civilized theses last years. We ran the first three and went through 2 cars---full framed American Iron--not pretty. May as well make long term plans as once you come to the salt you will be hooked! :-D
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I'm with you, I use a Ford 9" 2:47 ratio with open spool and have done fine at 216 mph in my small turbo Avanti. What do you guys like best for rear ends??
Interesting ... We run open differentials in BOTH of our cars.... both of our cars, interestingly, are record holders at this time as well....
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150 Club: two miles to get to speed, higher entry fee, I found this one easier.
130 club: ONE mile to get to speed, lower entry fee, I've seen a lot of high hp cars unable to do this!
BTW, I used a turbo Miata. about 250-275 rwhp, torsen rear. It spun the wheels in every gear but 5th - I think.
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Thanks for the input on the LSD issue. Seems we need one on dry pavement, but not wet pavement or salt.
I registered for the 130 mph club but I think the car will also pass tech for the 150 mph club. One mile to get up to speed does sounds short, but there's no way this 2.0L Opel motor will get us to 150 mph. Bob Legere, when he gets his car done, most likely will, but then again he is "the guy" in the vintage Opel world.
We've got that 5 speed. The gearing is the same and an Opel 4 speed for 1-4. 5th will give us some extra speed. I still need to check the gear ratios to see what is possible, if improbable.
What's the deal with signing up crew members. I assume they'll have to be members, but is that all? I've email the office again but so far no reply. This must be the start of the busy season for them.
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When, where did you send question about crew members? I can't find it.
Gary
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Sent on 6/6, to Ellen
I hope you have received my registration forms and that everything looks OK.
After I mailed it in I realized that I probably have to do something to get our crew signed up. I expect to have two, maybe three people with me. What do they need to do? Join USFRA? Send in medical forms?
I'll be installing the drive shaft retainer and window nets before we come out. I'll also bring registration and insurance papers, too, and the Cali plates will be on the car. It really is a street-driven car, and other than the safety gear it is close to being a stock Opel GT, and so far we haven't had it over 115 mph. So I think that between the rules as written and the spirit of the 130 mph club being street cars we should be OK. Still, I'll bring my suit and everything in case the inspectors insist on putting us in the 150 mph club group.
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If by signed up you mean into the event an event pass for each crew member will do. If you mean extra drivers, for the 130 Club each driver is a seperate entry; entry fee, course prep fee, membership, medical form, and different car number and reinspection. Only one active entry number at a time.
Gary
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We'll have only 1 driver. I'll have 1-2 friends with me to help and enjoy the event.
My thinking was that for them to be in the pits area and working on the car that they might need to be signed up as a crew member. In LeMons we have to sign everyone up either as a driver or crew member. The cost of a crew member is less, but not free. Their fee covers insurance, Jay's house payments, etc. Spectators can wander the pits in LeMons, but they cannot work on the cars, help fueling, etc.
Then again, there is a slight chance that I may have to come out on my own, possibly driving the car rather than towing it. My question now is, am I required to have a chase car, and if so, can I bribe someone to help me with that? I know this is only the 130 mph Club event, one that most street cars could make a run at, and also this is not the big show, but I need to ask.
The car currently has FRS/GMRS radio but I can get a CB for it.
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The car does not need a CB. You are not required to have a chase car for the 130 club. You will need a tarp for your pit. USFRA members get a free event pass.
Gary
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Thanks. I'll get my guys to join. It sounds like the best way to stay informed and it will get them into the event.
Sorry if I ask so many questions. I have searched and read and especially read the rules carefully, but this being my first time out there could easily be a lot of things I miss or misunderstood and I don't want to show up and be a pain in the ass or an embarrassment.
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Nice looking Opel.
I hope to be attending the 2012 World of Speed and driving in the 130 Club also.
I am driving a 2005 Subaru Forrester Turbo.
I have lots of drag, but want to have some fun anyway.
Hope to see you there!
:cheers:
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You guys shouldn't worry too much about the WoS, they will take good care of you. The rules for 130 are straight forward, they have been doing it for a long time. It is a fun event, be sure to see all the other stuff between passes. You will want the full experience... Maybe Slim will be doing a WoS Salt Talks again this year, if so you will want to be there. Stop by and say hi, I think we are taking the big car to WoS. Buy Tshirts Salt Talks and WoS
See ya on the salt 8-)
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Thanks for the encouragement.
Not having met any of these folks or attended an event I am paying very close attention to the letter of the rules. I don't want to waste a two-day drive, offend anyone, look like an idiot, make LeMons look bad, make Opels look bad, and most of all, not be able to join in the fun.
LeMons HQ now knows of my plan and supports it and has even OK'ed the tranny upgrade and tentatively, the dual side-draft upgrade. I'll need them on the salt and it sure will be interesting having them in LeMons races.
Speaking of which, last weekend's 24 hour race ended at 13.5 hours for us due to a blown head gasket. We nursed the car for over 10 hours but it finally gave out. No other damage that I can see but the engine will get a good inspection and possibly a tear-down before it runs again.
Oh, and I met KiwiSteve at the race. Nice guy. I just had to drop by and say thanks for his advice regarding my chances of getting the car ready for Speed Week. Chances = nil, assuming I want this car to also remain a LeMons car, which I do. ;)
I'm still taking to my friend about taking the aerial shots and video from his powered hang glider. As a bonus, he also has a tow vehicle.